Is Wizard 20 or Cleric 20 better at melee?

[danzibr]

Rather, does a straight Wizard or Cleric have more potential when it comes to melee? I know Wizards get spells like Tenser's Transformation and Black Blade of Disaster (or whatever they're called), but Clerics get Righteous Might and... the spell that gives full BAB whose name eludes me.

How about if we throw PrC's and multiclassing into the mix? I know Fighter/Wizard/Abjurant Champion/Eldritch Knight is pretty good, as is Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator.

I imagine for flavor reasons a Cleric would be much more likely to be a front liner, but just wonderin'.

[Jack_Simth]

Depends on the specific build... and Tensors is not a good choice for a spellcaster.

I'd probably side with the cleric, though; Between Miracle and the 'right' domains, the Cleric can get access to most, if not all, of the spells the Wizard would use, has access to DMM(Persistent Spell) to make them stick around all day, has a better base chasis, and has access to the tasty Cleric spells without burning XP.

[Namfuak]

If you are talking about straight wizard versus straight cleric, I would say cleric, although I don't know particularly whether there is some way to optimize wizards for melee like you can clerics (choosing the war domain, having a deity with a strong weapon to use the war domain for, etc). If neither was optimized at all for melee, I would still say probably clerics, since they have better BaB progression and are less likely to use str as a dump stat.

EDIT: Also, the cleric is going to be in heavy armor. If we are assuming that in order to damage the enemy both sides will only use buffed melee (as opposed to putting the enemy to sleep and then attacking, or something like that), the cleric's heavy armor will be really useful versus the wizard's lack thereof.

[legomaster00156]

Depends on the specific build... and Tensors is not a good choice for a spellcaster.

I'd probably side with the cleric, though; Between Miracle and the 'right' domains, the Cleric can get access to most, if not all, of the spells the Wizard would use, has access to DMM(Persistent Spell) to make them stick around all day, has a better base chasis, and has access to the tasty Cleric spells without burning XP.
That, and there's the whole "medium BAB" thing, giving them an extra 1/4 chance to hit the enemy over the Wizard. In addition, they have heavy armor and shield proficiency, better weapons, and a higher HD.

[Dazed&Confused]

Wizards can get Righteous Might and Divine Power through Arcane Disciple on the Competition domain, so that's not the cleric's advantage. I don't know if there's a way for clerics to get Shapechange without the Animal domain(or other domains) or Wraithstrike without Spell Domain/Initiate of Mystra, if there isn't, the only advantage the Cleric would have would be their higher HD; but with the stupidly high AC a 20th-level Wizard would get from Shapechange and other buffs from core only(AC in the 60s or even 70s), I think that disadvantage would be covered. Also, Wizards can get Arcane Strike and Knowledge Devotion(1 dip in cloistered cleric or even a normal cleric is enough), which can be cool boosts, especially when you're attacking touch AC.

Clerics can persist all their spells though, I can only do that as a Wizard if I get Leadership and an Incantatrix cohort, or if I'm an Incantatrix myself. Dunno if you can do it through other classes or w/e.

[gallagher]

whichever one polymorphs into the strongest monster will win

[danzibr]

Depends on the specific build... and Tensors is not a good choice for a spellcaster.

I'd probably side with the cleric, though; Between Miracle and the 'right' domains, the Cleric can get access to most, if not all, of the spells the Wizard would use, has access to DMM(Persistent Spell) to make them stick around all day, has a better base chasis, and has access to the tasty Cleric spells without burning XP.
lol, tensor! Too much math.

Hrm, yeah, DMM is... perhaps too nice to beat.

[Chronos]

Before buffs, the cleric has better BAB, more HP, armor, and better weapon proficiencies. Of the buffs available, Divine Power is much better than Tenser's Transformation (it gives a strength boost in addition to the BAB, still lets you cast spells, and doesn't have a costly material component), and there's really nothing the wizard has that compares to Righteous Might, Divine Favor, Magic Vestment, or Shield of Faith. I just can't see any basis for giving this to the wizard.

[Hirax]

Cleric can get giant size for no exp cost thanks to miracle, so that's another feather in their cap.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Did the Cleric take a domain that gives access to Shapechange? If not, Wizard 20 is the better meleer. If so, they're about the same. But who melees at level 20?

[Rubik]

When it comes down to it, assuming you're not counting Persist Spell (yeah, right), I think...

...a psion would win.

[ericgrau]

Well the wizard has polymorph, but that requires cheesy monster forms to come out ahead. War troll IIRC. And it works even better when he targets someone else, such as the party cleric. Or the barbarian, or whoever else is already good at melee without changing forms.

EDIT: Oh at exactly level 20, or 17-20, a shapechanging animal domain cleric would be better for the same reason. But for playing from 1-20 the wizard has an advantage 1-16 with polymorph cheese.

[Ancano]

Cleric for sure. There's a reason why it wasn't called CoDoW-zilla

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Well the wizard has polymorph, but that requires cheesy monster forms to come out ahead. War troll IIRC. And it works even better when he targets someone else, such as the party cleric. Or the barbarian, or whoever else is already good at melee without changing forms.Draconic Polymorph and (more relevant at this level) Shapechange are personal only. I suppose we could be talking about which is the better meleer without Shapechange levels of cheese, but then it's tough to draw the line. Is DMM too cheesy?

[Dazed&Confused]

Did the Cleric take a domain that gives access to Shapechange? If not, Wizard 20 is the better meleer. If so, they're about the same. But who melees at level 20?

I guess no one melees at lvl 20, but who doesn't want the feel of dishing out an average 500 damage/round, assuming the enemy has touch AC 32/33 and without taking into account the 15-20 crits? It's quite stupidly powerful, I'd want to go melee just to have the taste ><

[Jack_Simth]

That, and there's the whole "medium BAB" thing, giving them an extra 1/4 chance to hit the enemy over the Wizard. In addition, they have heavy armor and shield proficiency, better weapons, and a higher HD.
I was actually considering BAB, hp, and proficiencies as the 'base chasis'... but the BAB doesn't matter, thanks to Divine Power; the HP barely matters, thanks to Fortunate Fate (Spell Compendium), and armor / shield / weapon proficiencies hardly matter when you're planning on being Shapechanged anyway....

The primary advantage the Wizard has, here, is that almost any melee wizard build isn't going to be melee-specific, while almost any Cleric build is going to be melee-specific; the Wizard is slightly better at re-tooling for something else (although the Cleric can do that, too).

[Rubik]

Well the wizard has polymorph, but that requires cheesy monster forms to come out ahead. War troll IIRC. And it works even better when he targets someone else, such as the party cleric. Or the barbarian, or whoever else is already good at melee without changing forms.

EDIT: Oh at exactly level 20, or 17-20, a shapechanging animal domain cleric would be better for the same reason. But for playing from 1-20 the wizard has an advantage 1-16 with polymorph cheese.You don't even need the cheesy forms to win with Polymorph and Metamorphosis. You just have to pick the right forms at the right times.

If you have a decent Cha (see: telepath) Polymorph or Metamorphosis into a cloaker against an army of (ECL-3) orcs and watch as virtually all of them are paralyzed.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I guess no one melees at lvl 20, but who doesn't want the feel of dishing out an average 500 damage/round, assuming the enemy has touch AC 32/33 and without taking into account the 15-20 crits? It's quite stupidly powerful, I'd want to go melee just to have the taste ><By level 20 you can have safer, more reliable damage (with smaller, but still sufficient, numbers) by blasting, but I do relent that sometimes it's fun to get into the thick of things and start tearing boop up.

[Elboxo]

Plane Shift +Astral Projection + Shapechange + Timestop + WraithStrike + (Arcane Disciple : Righteous Might/Divine Power) + Greater Mage Armour + Shield ( Or any AC booster ) + Moment of Prescience.

If all else fails: Prismatic Sphere and sit inside it with a reach weapon xD

[Dazed&Confused]

You don't even need the cheesy forms to win with Polymorph and Metamorphosis. You just have to pick the right forms at the right times.

If you have a decent Cha (see: telepath) Polymorph or Metamorphosis into a cloaker against an army of (ECL-3) orcs and watch as virtually all of them are paralyzed.

I don't even think cheese or monsters with special abilities are needed, a 11th-level "otherworldly" Wizard could go to combat with wraithstrike/divine power/righteous might in the form of an Erinyes(pretty basic), bearing a keen falchion and most likely hitting more than your friends, while being quite hard to hit(maybe around 40 AC) aswell. The cheese would come from adding Incantatrix levels to yourself(this way you can count a 9th lvl wiz) or to a cohort(this way tou can count a 10th lvl wiz) so you can make all that stuff persistent/extended.

[Hiro Protagonest]

But who melees at level 20?

...Warblades?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

...Warblades?Those poor, poor muggles.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Those poor, poor muggles.

Hey, they can deal 2d6 con damage in a single attack, or +100 damage, or double the amount of attacks they get in a full attack, or use a fort-save-or-die-fort-save-and-20d6-damage.

(yes, I know you were joking. Sorta)

[theMycon]

I suspect it comes down to whether or not the "circle of death knell" spell line (consumptive field?) is available. By the most conservative reading plausible, it raises your str by your caster level (+2 per creature it kills, up to 1/2 your caster level), and the common reading on these boards is "those two clauses are unrelated, you can keep upping your strength and temp HP indefinitely." Combine that with the other self-buffs a cleric has, and with or without some method of growing larger, you're still dealing with tarrasque or great wyrm-level str, even if they weren't built for melee.

[Ramza00]

Hey, they can deal 2d6 con damage in a single attack, or +100 damage, or double the amount of attacks they get in a full attack, or use a fort-save-or-die-fort-save-and-20d6-damage.

(yes, I know you were joking. Sorta)

If you count all the splatbooks you should get somewhere in the area of 80 to 100, 9th level spells (there are 24 9th level wiz/sorc spells in core). That is a lot of spells and it hard for our brains to remember all of them, because of this many people have rated the spells with different rating systems. One of the most common rankings is the one treantmonk divised that ranked spells from 1 star up to 6 stars

1 star is a turkey
2 star is thumbs down
3 star is an average spell/run of the mill
4 star is thumbs up
5 star is rubbing your hands in an evil manner with glee
6 star is evil laugh

The effects you describe would rate mostly 2 stars on the 6 star system if a wizard was using a 9th level slot. I repeat those effects are a 1 or a 2 out of a 6 star system, those effects are no Gate, Timestop, Shapechange, Wish, etc.

--------

Warblades and Crusaders are mere muggles, but they can be useful muggles. For example a Marshal 1/Crusader 5/Dread Commando 5/Crusader 9 gets 9th level maneuvers, Cha+5 to your allies initiative, can make your wizard go again in initiative due to white raven tactics, and be a nice beat stick/tank.

[NNescio]

I suspect it comes down to whether or not the "circle of death knell" spell line (consumptive field?) is available. By the most conservative reading plausible, it raises your str by your caster level (+2 per creature it kills, up to 1/2 your caster level), and the common reading on these boards is "those two clauses are unrelated, you can keep upping your strength and temp HP indefinitely." Combine that with the other self-buffs a cleric has, and with or without some method of growing larger, you're still dealing with tarrasque or great wyrm-level str, even if they weren't built for melee.

Mandatory quote:


I've been snickering all day thanks to this threads chicken slaughtering powerups. Someday I want to try it in a game.
So here I drew a comic for you guys:
I don't know about you, but chickens give me strength! (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/Vegitto-Kun/Forum/Chickensgivemestrength1.jpg)

Your friendly neighborhood webcomic artist (http://www.smackjeeves.com/profile.php?id=60730) delivers.

[danzibr]

theMycon: How have I never seen you on these boards? A fellow Star Control fan! Great.

Anyways, I should have specified no polymorphing. I mean, of course it's a valid option, but that wasn't what I meant.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

theMycon: How have I never seen you on these boards? A fellow Star Control fan! Great.

Anyways, I should have specified no polymorphing. I mean, of course it's a valid option, but that wasn't what I meant.Well, you should probably specify what exactly you do mean if you're banning polymorph. Assuming neither group can do top-shelf shenanigans (simulacrum'd solar, Miracle/Wish abuse, Planar Binding/Gate, Consumptive Field bag o' rats), methinks it goes Wizard/PrC > Cleric/PrC > Cleric 20 > Wizard 20. This is because Wizards can go Incantatrix Gish and beat the Cleric at his own persisting game, and they have access to some great personal buffs (not to mention greater ease of ocular persist). Wizard 20 can still persist low level spells like Wraithstrike and Swift Fly, but it doesn't breach the gap without stuff like Bite of the Werebear.

[ericgrau]

I'll just say on a more serious and lactose intolerant note clerics tend to do better at melee in more normal games. Wizard have poor BAB and not enough buffs and so on to make up for it. Casting in armor is another obstacle to overcome.

[Kenneth]

wizard wins. if maybe not wholey himself being able to melee but being able to

Ice Assassin
Illusion (Shadow)
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M, XP
Casting Time: 8 hours
Range: Touch
Area: One duplicate creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The ice assassin spell is in many ways an improved version of simulacrum. Developed by powerful frost mages who have more than their fair share of enemies to fight, an ice assassin is an effective way to destroy an enemy without putting yourself at risk.

An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near perfect duplicate of an already existing creature. The duplicate is formed entirely out of ice, but once the spell is in effect, it appears as an exact duplicate to all but its source, who always sees the ice assassin as an animated ice statue of himself. The ice assassin possesses all of the skills, abilities, and memories possessed by the original, but its personality is warped and twisted by an all-consuming need to slay the original. It also constantly uses locates creature on its duplicate at a caster level equal to your own. If its quarry is outside the range of this effect, the ice assassin must rely on its own cleverness or advice from you to track the original. In addition, the ice assassin has the cold subtype, which makes it immune to cold damage but imparts a weakness to fire damage (on a failed saving throw against a fire attack, the ice assassin suffers double damage). Creatures familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Spot check. You must make a Disguise check (gaining a +10 circumstance bonus from the power of the spell) when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is.

At all times, the ice assassin remains under your absolute command. You possess a telepathic link to the ice assassin, and when you concentrate, you receive a clear image of the area surrounding the ice assassin as if you were scrying on it. Further, you can have any spell you cast on yourself affect the ice assassin as well; this includes spells with a target of "You" only. These benefits persist as long as you and the ice assassin remain within a mile of each other. If the ice assassin travels beyond this range, it continues to function and seek out its nemesis, but you have no direct control over it.

An ice assassin has no ability to become more powerful; it cannot increase its level or abilities. Damage caused to the ice assassin can be repaired only via a complex process requiring 1 day, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped laboratory. If the ice assassin is reduced to 0 hit points by any damage save for fire damage, it explodes into a burst of icy shrapnel in a 20-foot radius that causes 1d6 points of cold damage for every other caster level you possess; a successful Reflex saving throw halves the damage done. An ice assassin slain by fire damage simply melts into a pool of water.

Material Component: This spell is cast over the ice statue of the creature to be duplicated. Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed. In addition, the spell requires powdered diamond worth 20,000 gp.

XP Cost: 5,000


is basically a winner. Plus Don't wizards make better summoners than clerics or am i just thinking wrong? Plus Wizards can also just astrally project themselves with all those buffs up that make them nigh untouchable, last time I chekced wizards did have the best overall defenses in teh game.

[candycorn]

...Isn't this like asking whether a battleship or an aircraft carrier is better at ramming other ships?

While the question is not unanswerable, it's usually not something that the average wizard or cleric would truly want to focus on.

[Myth]

For low OP games where people play Fighters with Toughness and think Monks are really powerful a Cleric would be better simply because the DM thinks AC matters, plate armour matters, HD matter and that enemy goons with pointy sticks are scary encounters. (hint: none of those matter)

In normal games the Cleric would be better as a smart Wizard player would not direct his resources at being better in melee, while a Cleric might slap on a few persisted spells and wield the ol' chain just in case.

In high OP games no one would melee but if they wanted to, they would be better at it than any other non TO or Tier 0 class. Perhaps bar a well built Druid. I do believe that an Incantatrix / Iot7v is better than RKV and both can get Dweomerkeepr. So strictly speaking a Wizard would be better. Plus the Wizard has a Familiar.

[Gwendol]

Nah, cleric has an edge when it comes to hitting harder: it's just easier for them. Besides, the wizard has no reason for fighting melee in the first place and has the tools to avoid it most of the time too.

[sonofzeal]

Nah, cleric has an edge when it comes to hitting harder: it's just easier for them. Besides, the wizard has no reason for fighting melee in the first place and has the tools to avoid it most of the time too.
Shapechange. Anyone who has access to Shapechange with 20 HD is going to dramatically outperform anyone who doesn't in melee, it's just that good. Unless the Cleric finds a way to get it himself, the Wizard is tying him into knots and mailing pieces back to his loved ones.

[Drathmar]

If you count all the splatbooks you should get somewhere in the area of 80 to 100, 9th level spells (there are 24 9th level wiz/sorc spells in core). That is a lot of spells and it hard for our brains to remember all of them, because of this many people have rated the spells with different rating systems. One of the most common rankings is the one treantmonk divised that ranked spells from 1 star up to 6 stars

1 star is a turkey
2 star is thumbs down
3 star is an average spell/run of the mill
4 star is thumbs up
5 star is rubbing your hands in an evil manner with glee
6 star is evil laugh

The effects you describe would rate mostly 2 stars on the 6 star system if a wizard was using a 9th level slot. I repeat those effects are a 1 or a 2 out of a 6 star system, those effects are no Gate, Timestop, Shapechange, Wish, etc.



--------
But at least the maneuvers aren't banned like those spells are by any sane DM (except maybe timestop). At least the last 3 campaigns I played in that got high enough to have 9th level spells... Wish/Shapechange/Gate were the first three the DMs said NO to.

[danzibr]

Well, you should probably specify what exactly you do mean if you're banning polymorph.
Is there really ambiguity here? I'm interested in a caster buffing him/herself then beating down baddies but without changing into another creature.

[Gwendol]

Shapechange. Anyone who has access to Shapechange with 20 HD is going to dramatically outperform anyone who doesn't in melee, it's just that good. Unless the Cleric finds a way to get it himself, the Wizard is tying him into knots and mailing pieces back to his loved ones.

The OP's question disregards shapechange.

[Suddo]

I assume we are assuming neither can use a dispel magic effect?

Assuming Human Cleric: That's 3 + ChaMod + (5 * 4) Turn attempts. That's probably about 25 so that's about 4 buffs.
Now the interesting question: Can the Cleric deal enough damage to the War Troll to knock it out before dying: If yes then the Cleric simply has to beat on the wizard for the next couple hours till he turns back into a wizard and bam kill him. If the wizard persists the polymorph then you have to beat on the wizard for 2 days (extend rod) which still isn't a problem as even if your buffs drop you can probably keep up with the wizard's Regeneration till he stops being a troll and kill him. I think that is the best way to go about this.

So in conclusion Cleric.

Edit: If there is something better than War Troll please state it. I'll rethink my argument.

Man it might be fun to build a level 20 Arcane Caster and a level 20 Divine Caster and have them duke it out via an agreement of no spells during the fight. We'd probably want to assume that Tome of Battle is banned as it would probably require one, if not both, to use said book.

[Manateee]

Through summons, morphs, domain swaps, 'cast anything' spells (eg. Miracle/[Lesser] Wish, [Greater] Anyspell), dominates, possessions, independent research, simulacrums, drake helms, magic items, &c., both classes effectively have any spell they want.

Overall, I'd give it to the wizard, because of its familiar.

Seriously.

[Kaeso]

Overall, I'd give it to the wizard, because of its familiar.

Seriously.

Why? It's basically an experience loss bomb just waiting to go off.

[Manateee]

The familiar is the difference between being just another zhlub turning into a Solar and summoning Solars and being a dude who turns into a Solar and summoning Solars while riding a Solar.

This is an important distinction.
(*Solars are notorious for their piggyback skills)

[Flickerdart]

Single-classed, or not? A Wizard has a far easier time of gishing it up thanks to gems like Abjurant Champion and Swiftblade.

[Dazed&Confused]

The familiar is the difference between being just another zhlub turning into a Solar and summoning Solars and being a dude who turns into a Solar and summoning Solars while riding a Solar.

This is an important distinction.
(*Solars are notorious for their piggyback skills)

That's also pretty true. Since you're casting 2093840923 spells and you're far from your "base stats" in every way I can think of, sharing it all with your familiar, it's basically two "yous" raping stuff. Your copy may have less hp, but you can always find other ways to protect it. Plus you have really cool familiar-only buffs in the books.