Help me make a Shotoclone! 3.5

[INoKnowNames]

I'm back! :3

I'm making my second real Tome of Battle character. And I found the most epic game for it!

Not only is Tome of Battle allowed, and I get to play an Unarmed Swordsage, but My Fists can be used for Two Weapon Fighting!

I suppose the universe is making up for my Natural 1.

But now I need to decide my stuff as soon as I can, so I'm ready to go as soon as I can.

First of all, we're starting at level 1. But we can take up to a +2 template to add to the character. My first reflex was a Fiendish Humanoid, because I've suddenly got the desire to play as Akuma, but I don't think I'm ready to do nothing but be Neutral Evil. I hate things that resstrict my alignment... Is there any template that is up to +2 that would be good for a Fight loving Martial Artist?

Second, Discipline Focus. Totally not sure where to go with it. I'm taking what I can from almost every single path. Desert Wind gives me the Inferno Blade like moves (flaming fists of awesome are awesome, as are Fireballs), Diamond Mind is simply too good to give up (and I honestly tried to consider him without it). Shadow Hand and Setting Sun, as well as Tiger Claw, give me Weapon Focus with Unarmed Strikes if I choose them, but the first two seem somewhat limited in use (although even they have plenty of goodies). Even Stone Dragon has plenty to use. I've no idea which Discipline deserves the Discipline Weapon Focus right now, let alone future ones.

3rd, Stats. 29 Point Buy (although I found a nice calculator, that I think Greenish posted, that could calculate with a penalty of less than 8 in a stat, and it got approved). I'm currently sitting on 14 Str, 17 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 14 Wis, and 6 Cha. Considering I only need 19 Dex for Improved Two Weapon Fighting, would this be a decent amount to start with for now? If the answers to the next question is yes, then I might consider an Average Str and more even stats.

4th, Stances. If I get good use of Shadow Hand Stances, I could stay in them forever and get Shadow Blade. Is there an issue for using Unarmed Strikes in the stances requiring lose hands? If not, then Shadow Hand and Blade can go away, since the only thing that seems worth it are the Teleports.

I suppose that's more than enough to start with.

[Frosty]

The Desert Wind maneuvers aren't really a hadouken though. I think you'll want to dip Monk for 2 levels for the bonus feats, grab stunning fist, and take a feat that lets you do a ki-blast using stunning fist attempt.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

"winged creature" template is pretty good, especially if you decide to use Shadow Blade

[INoKnowNames]

The Desert Wind maneuvers aren't really a hadouken though. I think you'll want to dip Monk for 2 levels for the bonus feats, grab stunning fist, and take a feat that lets you do a ki-blast using stunning fist attempt.

I was hoping to stay straight Swordsage, since the Capstone is awesome, and there's so many moves to learn and only so many levels to exchange them.

As for Desert Wind, I understand and accept that they are subpar, but there's a few that spring to mind: Inferno Blast, Wyrm's Flame, Dragon's Flame, Fan the Flames, and Hatchling's Flames. Again, I know they stink, but it's the flavor of yelling myself hoarse with rage as I launch them that counts, as well as being able to work with my ridgedness towards staying single classed.

I thought about another question, actually. When someone is rendered Flat Footed, what does that mean? If I was in Assassin's Stance, could I apply Sneak Attack Damage to any move that renders them as such?


"winged creature" template is pretty good, especially if you decide to use Shadow Blade

I thought about it, but I'd honestly rather not. I can't see Akuma with Wings.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

If I was in Assassin's Stance, could I apply Sneak Attack Damage to any move that renders them as such?
every attack against a target who ise denied his dexterity bonus to armor class (as normally happens with flat-footed enemies who have not uncanny dodge) will qualify as a sneak attack.


I thought about it, but I'd honestly rather not. I can't see Akuma with Wings.
You may ask your DM to refluff it to be anime levitation technique (if that's what you like)

[Eldariel]

I do hope you mean Shotoclone :smalltongue:

Template; I'd go Saint [BoED]. Get that Ten-tattoo on your back and all that, to go with it. Wisdom to AC a second time would go a long way towards making you a hard target.

I'd also derive your stuff off Wisdom or Dexterity; Intuitive Attack [BoED] + Insightful Strikes class feature for Wisdom or Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade [ToB] for Dexterity. Either way, this'd allow you to make do without Strength. Ultimately you do want both, good Wis and good Dex though, for maneuvers if nothing else. You need at least some Throws from Setting Sun so for that you need some Dex. Wis, on the other hand, opens up the Shadow Hand funstuff maneuvers.

[HunterOfJello]

A good question to ask is if you can only have 1 template that puts you at +2 LA or if your character + any templates that you grab can equal +2 LA. Another way would be to show up with your total LA equaling +2 and just try to go with it from there.

There are lots of good +1 LA races (as well as +0 LA) races that you can consider. There are also lots of great +1 LA templates and +2 LA templates. I'd strongly consider grabbing two +1 LA templates.


Some of my favorite templates that could be great for this character include:

+1 LA
Feral - Savage Species
-great to the point of being broken, feral powerfully pumps of a character's melee abilities at the cost of intelligence and a bit of dex. It does boost wisdom a bit though.
Dark Creature - Tome of Magic
-Shadow's younger brother. This is for sneaky people
Lolth Touched - MM4
A very fun template that is great if you'd like to play a character who is somehow related to drow and a worshiper of Lolth. It has the rp requirement that you be chaotic evil, but that's not usually a stretch for most RPers. The bonuses are some beefy boosts of +6 to both strength and constitution along with some boosts to hide and movesilently. To top the cake is the blessing of Immunity to Fear.

+2 LA
Shadow - Lords of Madness
- Not the greatest template ever, but it is definitely a strong choice. Great ability to gain total concealment in anything other then full daylight. The bonus abilities that you gain for every 4 HD are truly impressive. A bonus of +2 to all saving throws, Evasion, and Fast Healing 2 is pretty damn awesome.

Half-Fey - Fiend Folio
If you had more charisma, this would be a slightly better choice. The first of the 2 badass casting templates, half-fey get a list of spell-like abilties that only get better as their levels progress. Having Wings is also pretty awesome. Being immune to enchantments is just awesome.

Phrenic - Expanded Psionic Handbook
In many ways this is the psionic version of half-fey. Power Resistance, mental ability boosts, and access forevermore to psionic feats are pretty great. The real boon is the list of psionics that you gain every few hit die. Some of the abilities are moderately useful and others like intellect fortress and psionic dominate are deliciously awesome.

~~~~~

A longer list of possible templates can be found at the Tier System for Templates (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044.0) page, but I think these are some of the best choices of gaining power and utility without going overboard.

Each of Half-Fey, Phrenic, or Lolth Touched + Dark creature would be awesome choices for a swordsage.

[INoKnowNames]

every attack against a target who ise denied his dexterity bonus to armor class (as normally happens with flat-footed enemies who have not uncanny dodge) will qualify as a sneak attack.

Heh. Assassin's Stance + Sapphire Nightmare Blade = decent damage. Cool.


You may ask your DM to refluff it to be anime levitation technique (if that's what you like)

I'll think about it, I suppose. If I can enable it, maybe, but it seems sorta odd. Doesn't quite have the kick that Fiendish does.

I actually thought of another question. If I have Improved Trip, can I damage people I throw with a Trip Attempt, like with Mighty Throw?

And of course, I get more responces because I didn't update my page to note them.

I'm sorry, but in no way am I considering Saint. Been enough of a Goodie Two-Shoes. The only reason I'm even questioning not taking Fiendish is because I'm not sure about being locked into evil. Otherwise, I don't think I could do much better than that for him.

Unless I consider one of the other of many options that I could apparently go with.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Heh. Assassin's Stance + Sapphire Nightmare Blade = decent damage. Cool.
If you are interested in making wide use of sneak attack, take "craven" and "staggering strike".
you will deal 2D6 + your level sneak attack damage, and you will make staggered any enemy you sneak attack... unless they save against DC=damage dealt with your attack (so, basically, you make everybody non immune to sneak attacks automatically staggered)

Improved trip question: I'd say no, because the feat mentions using a trip attempt instead of a melee attack.

[INoKnowNames]

If you are interested in making wide use of sneak attack, take "craven" and "staggering strike".
you will deal 2D6 + your level sneak attack damage, and you will make staggered any enemy you sneak attack... unless they save against DC=damage dealt with your attack (so, basically, you make everybody non immune to sneak attacks automatically staggered)

I'm only starting at level 1! XD

Although that is totally sexy and I will be doing it. Heh. There's a rogue in the party, and we can both sneak attack with eachother. :3

[Alleran]

Dark Creature - Tome of Magic
-Shadow's younger brother. This is for sneaky people
The Dark template can be gained through (ab)use of a magical location - the "Failed Shadow Gate" - in Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave. Just make sure you have somebody on hand with healing magic or raise dead, since the location can be somewhat risky.

[INoKnowNames]

The Dark template can be gained through (ab)use of a magical location - the "Failed Shadow Gate" - in Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave. Just make sure you have somebody on hand with healing magic or raise dead, since the location can be somewhat risky.

I'm not sure if I feel like risking death....

I'm asking for the Shadow Template. Because it's pimp tastic.

Couple of Questions: Is the Child of Shadow Stance still worth taking if I do get Shadow? Seems like it makes it redundant. Could take a different stance until 6th level, which is when I'd get the Shadow Blade feat.

And if you already have Evasion and Improved Evasion, what would an additional level of Evasion do? Nothing?

[HunterOfJello]

And if you already have Evasion and Improved Evasion, what would an additional level of Evasion do? Nothing?

Nothing. Improved Evasion is already godly enough. Anything stronger would just be cheating.

[INoKnowNames]

Nothing. Improved Evasion is already godly enough. Anything stronger would just be cheating.

Dang. Ah well. At least I have it. Shadow is in, although the sheet needs to be up soon.

[Alleran]

I'm not sure if I feel like risking death...
Basically, you make a DC 20 Will save (you can choose to fail it). If you fail, then roll a d100. On a 1-50, you're dropped to -9 HP, and will need somebody on hand to heal you (or you'll die in one round). On a 51-100, you can use the Dark template 1/day for ten minutes. If you've survived ten or more trips through the gate, you always have the template active. It also switches your alignment over to evil, though.

[Eldariel]

It also switches your alignment over to evil, though.

That's nothing a Mindrape can't fix tho.

[INoKnowNames]

Basically, you make a DC 20 Will save (you can choose to fail it). If you fail, then roll a d100. On a 1-50, you're dropped to -9 HP, and will need somebody on hand to heal you (or you'll die in one round). On a 51-100, you can use the Dark template 1/day for ten minutes. If you've survived ten or more trips through the gate, you always have the template active. It also switches your alignment over to evil, though.


That's nothing a Mindrape can't fix tho.

I think it might be easier simply to be born as a very Shadowy Human.

Edit: After I slept it over, I actually thing I'm going to ignore the template for now. I'ma ask if I could roleplay and gain one later, based on which side of the alignment scale I feel like fully swinging on. If not, I honestly still don't feel like it. Shadow and Dark are awesome (and I know I'm going to take a lot of slack for this), but none of them really give the same feel that Fiendish would have, and it unfortunately locks me into being Evil, and I hate alignment locks. I'll probably have regreted this once people start getting massive bonuses from templates, but unless there's one that could potentially give me more Swift/Move Actions while staying Single Classed and avoiding the Alignment bit (even if others don't enforce it, I'm not really skilled enough to be able to act out of it), I think just being Human is good enough for me.

[INoKnowNames]

I'm trying to figure out my Maneuvers... I know a bunch of different moves that I want, based on Akuma's moveset. But I can't figure out what I drop and take at what levels to gain them.... I think I'll need the most help there. After that, it shouldn't be too hard to search for Feats.

Techniques and Ideal Maneuvers to Emulate Them Include:

Hyakkishu : Jump Check requiring Tiger Claw Maneuvers (although I'm not sure if I want to take Feral Death Blow unless I can. I see myself stoping at Swooping Dragon Strike for it)

Ashura Senku: Shadow Teleports (Capable of working in an Antimagic Field -and- having no requirements? I don't think that can be any more amazing. Too bad I don't think I'll be investing in the rest of Shadow Hand...)

Gou Hadouken: Desert Wind Fireball Moves up to Wyrm's Flame (Yes, I know they stink, but they're still far too cool to give up. What self respecting Shotoclone would I be without a Fireball?)

Gou Shoryuken: Tornado Throw and other Setting Sun Throws (because they're cool. TT especially)

Tatsumaki Zankuukyaku: This one I haven't fully covered. Although at upper levels, it could be represented by a convincing Avalanche of Blades. (with maybe Inferno Blade used before hand, for the bonus of funny flaming feet)

Shun Goku Satsu: Pouncing Charge and Raging Mongoose, or Time Stands Still with Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip. I expect both of these combos to kill anyone they touch.

Kongou Kokuretsu Zan: Inferno Blast (Yes, lots of people resist Fire Damage. Doesn't change the fact that I can punch the ground and cause, at the very least, quite a distraction in the middle of a populated area.)

So, from my count alone, I'm looking for... Inferno Blast, Inferno Blade, Wyrm's Flame, Time Stands Still, Avalanche of Blades, Pouncing Charge, Raging Mongoose, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, Swooping Dragon Strike, the Shadow Teleports, and the Setting Sun throws.

But I'm having trouble figuring out how I might gain all of these, even on a straight Sword Sage....

[INoKnowNames]

Random Question that I don't think I considered:

How does Superior Unarmed Strike work when you take it at level 18 as a Swordsage or Monk?

I never realised how feat starved a Sword Sage is... Warblades are lucky they have bonus feats....

So far, I think I've got...

B: Adaptive Style
1: Two Weapon Fighting
3: Weapon Finesse*
6: Shadow Blade
9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12: Snap Kick
15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18: (Untaken, either S.U.S., if not something else)

[HunterOfJello]

The Epic Level Handbook states that monk's unarmed strikes do not increase in damage after 16th level. There might be an alternate rule to that somewhere.

As for feats, drop Weapon Focus and Snap Kick. Did you mean Weapon Finesse instead of Focus?

Also, if you drop the Two-Weapon Fighting line you can make up for it with Tiger Claw maneuvers.

[Mystify]

I do hope you mean Shotoclone :smalltongue:

Template; I'd go Saint [BoED]. Get that Ten-tattoo on your back and all that, to go with it. Wisdom to AC a second time would go a long way towards making you a hard target.

Saint is not a normal template. You can't just throw it on anything, you have to meet the prerequisites first, among which are several exalted feats and minimum level. Look at page 29 for more details.

[INoKnowNames]

The Epic Level Handbook states that monk's unarmed strikes do not increase in damage after 16th level. There might be an alternate rule to that somewhere.

I suppose following the base rule would be pretty important. In which case, crap, now I don't know what to take for my 18th lvl feat.


Did you mean Weapon Finesse instead of Focus?

That's twice in a few days that I've made a slip up like that, saying one thing while clearly meaning the other. Dear lord yes, I ment Finesse instead of Focus.


As for feats, drop Snap Kick. Also, if you drop the Two-Weapon Fighting line you can make up for it with Tiger Claw maneuvers.

I was hoping to use the Two Weapon Fighting line -with- Tiger Claw. Pouncing Charge Plus Raging Mongoose, for example. Move Action, Full Attack with 3 Hits, Two Weapon Fighting for 3 More Hits, 4 Additional Hits from Raging Mongoose, and then an extra hit from Snap Kick. I don't think I can get too much closer to the Raging Demon than that.

Granted, if you can note any more feats that can do this sorta thing even better while still staying a Straight Unarmed Swordsage (I'm not ready for Multiclassing Hijinks yet), then by all means enlighten me. But if not, I really would prefer the Two Weapon Fighting Line and Snap Kick, as Feat Starved as I am... Time Stands Still + Greater Improved Two Weapon Fighting + Snap Kick + Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip. If only I could gain a bit more distance in the 5 foot step, that would be be -epic-. Wraith of the Raging Demon material.

My Warblade character should be appreciative of his bonus feats...


Saint is not a normal template. You can't just throw it on anything, you have to meet the prerequisites first, among which are several exalted feats and minimum level. Look at page 29 for more details.

I actually knew this. I'm aiming for Saint with a Healer in a different game. 3 Exalted Feats is -quite- a tax, especially on a character that, good or bad, probably wouldn't deserve them.... I was going to consider Sanctified, maybe after playing with Fiendish, at least for roleplaying purposes.

Then I just got tired of fliping through books for such a minor bonus when I hadn't considered the full weight of my own character, that I just decided to screw the whole thing.

[INoKnowNames]

So, I have one person saying to not take the Two Weapon Fighting line despite it being almost as important to the character as the maneuvers themselves are.

Anyone feel like saying yes or no to this?

Additionally, anyone feel like commenting on another feat or two that could be taken at level 18 for a Swordsage?

[Mystify]

So, I have one person saying to not take the Two Weapon Fighting line despite it being almost as important to the character as the maneuvers themselves are.

Anyone feel like saying yes or no to this?

Additionally, anyone feel like commenting on another feat or two that could be taken at level 18 for a Swordsage?

two weapon fighting gets a lot of hate. I've found it to be quite effective, but I'm not sure how well it mixes with manuevers.

[INoKnowNames]

two weapon fighting gets a lot of hate. I've found it to be quite effective, but I'm not sure how well it mixes with manuevers.

I did a little poking around the book again last night, and this is what I've come up with, concerning Two Weapon Fighting.

Burning Blade, Searing Blade, Inferno Blade all become really good choices (enough to make me consider the Fiery Assault Stance, just so I can always keep flaming hands of flame). Immediate Action Leaping Flame helps make staying close enough to your enemy for Two Weapon Fighting Full Attacks an option. Desert Wind is a bit more Magic-y than the rest of the book (except for Shadow Hand), but it does have merrits.

Time Stands Still is -murderous- with Two Weapon Fighting. (Avalanche of Blades might be too, possibly. I'm not actually sure -how- Two Weapon Fighting works with it.) Quicksilver Motion and Moment of Alacrity make performing it easier to do.

I actually don't see much in Setting Sun that gives good advantages to -any- fighting style, really (although I will be investing what I can in it for the sake of Shoryuken). It's just an interestingly good style. A bit like Iron Heart, but for Swordsages. Although Mirrored Pursuit is a useful little trick.

Assassin's Stance is good, (I might constantly stay in and take the Craven feat, which I certainly might for that kinda bonus damage to each attack... Craven + Assassin's Stance + Wraith of the Raging Demon should hurt like balls) and the Teleports are all awesome. Otherwise, Shadow Hand's more for sneaky single strikes.

Stone Mountain is -definitely- the weakest of the 9 Paths... At this rate, I might never pull anything from it for any character. It's certainly better than nothing, but there's just too much goodness everywhere else to really be able to use it...

Tiger Claw is where it's at! Dancing/Raging Mongoose and Girallon WIndmill Flesh Rip are more than good enough reasons for a Two Weapon Fighter to consider Swordsageness. Not to mention Pouncing Charge (unless you did the Barbarian Multiclass thing, but since I'm not gonna Multiclass for my first couple of characters and games, I'm not considering it an option), and maybe Prey on the Weak (I heard there was a feat that lets you use 2 attacks on an Attack of Opportunity. Mix that with this for some fun, I assume). Sudden Leap and Wolf Fang Strike are good options at lower levels, too (although I could have sworn there was a feat that gives me what Wolf Fang Strike does, even without the attack of opportunity).

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of these assumptions, but it seems like Two Weapon Fighting is certainly workable on a Swordsage. At the very least, using boosts to defend yourself or corner your target before laying down the smack!

I seriously find something new that I like (effective or not) every day. Found Firesnake today. MESSATSU-GOU HADOU!

[Gandariel]

just a couple things,

don't do the Assassin stance+Craven thing.
At 20th level 2d6+20 damage on a flat footed enemy.. it's just not worth it.
you can use better feats and stances.

Also the desert wind thing, expect problems with fire resistance or immunity...

[HunterOfJello]

So, I have one person saying to not take the Two Weapon Fighting line despite it being almost as important to the character as the maneuvers themselves are.

Anyone feel like saying yes or no to this?

Additionally, anyone feel like commenting on another feat or two that could be taken at level 18 for a Swordsage?

The two weapon fighting line is a good series of feats compared to many feat trees. The problem that pops up is that while it is very cool, it doesn't work for many builds. For swordsages it can work, but it usually isn't optimal. If you look at the other Tiger Claw maneuvers, some of them allow you to use multiple attacks as part of the maneuver. The Burning Blade feat line and a few of the feats from the Tiger Claw tree work well with TWF, but others duplicate TWF's effect without having to take the feat. The way that the maneuvers in the Tiger Claw discipline were implemented is strange, to say the least.

To use TWF properly also requires the PC to use a Full Attack action during combat. This is part of an inherent problem with the entire melee system in d&d. If an enemy is 10 feet away from you, you could take a 5ft step and attack 6 times or so with TWF at a certain level. If an enemy is 15ft away from you, that 5ft step is no longer enough to allow you to get within range to do a full attack action and your movement + attack may leave you with only a standard action available, which is the equivalent of a normal single attack. To offset this you'd need to use Sudden Leap, Pouncing Strike, or find some way to take a dip into another class or PrC to get the Pounce ability. If you're starting at level 1, it's going to take you 8 levels to get up to level 9 where you'd gain access to Pouncing Strike. That leaves you with 1 oppurtunity to use your Two Weapon Fighting against an enemy more than 10 feet away before having to renew your maneuvers again.

Going the Two Weapon Fighting route is fairly common, but it's also very costly, doesn't always work out well, and continues to clog up your entire build with feat tax after feat tax. Just to be able to fight using only Dexterity, renew your maneuvers in a realistic manner, and use two weapons while fighting instead of one, you've already spend 6 freaking feats.

I've played a swordsage before and I ended up using a Two handed weapon. The ever popular weapon to do this with is the Spiked Chain which has a number of good bonuses including a 10ft reach. The Spiked Chain is the most powerful option in this situation, but I recommend against using it for stylistic reasons. In the game I played in I ended up convincing my DM to let me gain access to the Elven Courtblade as a racial weapon proficiency as a trade in for my other racial weapon proficiencies and the promise not to go use a Spiked Chain. You could attempt a similar method or take the Exoctic Weapon Proficiency feat if you aren't an Elf (otherwise take the weird racial weapon proficiency feat). The Elven Courtblade is one of the few 2handed weapons that can be used along with Weapon Finesse (if you didn't know).

I prefer THWs for a swordsage since it seems cool and can free up some feat space for grabbing Combat Reflexes and Power Attack. Power Attack is a nice alternative for increasing melee damage even while not having a high strength score. Only 13 strength is required to use it. Combat Reflexes is always a fun feat for ripping enemies apart and is uncomfortably good if a character is using a Spiked Chain.

So, that's my spiel. TWF isn't terrible, but I never really liked it for a class that doesn't use precision damage.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Next topic:

At high levels there are a crap ton of feats you can choose from to gain power. There are so many that I wouldn't even know where to start.

Once you actually get close to that level, I suggest you come back and look around for advice.


~~~~~~~~~

Maneuvers:

You're strongly underestimating the Stone Dragon school if you overlook the Mountain Hammer feat. You don't have to take any more maneuvers in that discipline if you don't want to, but that maneuver is amazing. The ability to cut through any object's hardness or any enemies damage reduction is very impressive. That maneuver makes the difference between attacking a DR 15/whatever monster that ignores you completely and slitting the creature's throat apart with 15 more damage than your previous attacks. It's also useful for cutting anything within the entire game.

Assassin's Stance + Craven is a very dangerous combo. Your DM may or may not allow you to get the Craven feat based on if they interpret your maneuvers as counting as class abilities in the same way that a rogue gets sneak attack. It is important for me to point out that while the fear penalty seems insignificant at low levels, it will become much more dangerous at higher levels. Many high level enemies and spells use fear as part of their danger. The extra damage is very nice, though it may not proc very often.

[INoKnowNames]

just a couple things,
'kay.

don't do the Assassin stance+Craven thing.
At 20th level 2d6+20 damage on a flat footed enemy.. it's just not worth it.
you can use better feats and stances.

Assassin's Stance + Craven is a very dangerous combo. Your DM may or may not allow you to get the Craven feat based on if they interpret your maneuvers as counting as class abilities in the same way that a rogue gets sneak attack. It is important for me to point out that while the fear penalty seems insignificant at low levels, it will become much more dangerous at higher levels. Many high level enemies and spells use fear as part of their danger. The extra damage is very nice, though it may not proc very often.
I was curious about receiving a bonus that might require an actual class feature rather than an ability that emulates it.....

I also thought that Sneak Attack could apply to every single hit you made. I was under the fantasy that, at level 20, I'd hit someone with a Craven Girallion Windmill Flesh Rip'ed Two Weapon Fighting Time Stands Still Sneak Attack, and all of the crazy (though for this board, probably decent at best) bonuses that I could get from it.

At this point, though, I'm thinking Adaptive Stance, Two Weapon Fighting (I started with those, and I don't think I can go back on it now), Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade (because Shadow Hand Stances are all cool), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Snap Kick, Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit (because extra attacks are what I'm looking for).

Also the desert wind thing, expect problems with fire resistance or immunity...
I'm aware of that issue. I've contemplated not using those moves, but then I realised I simply couldn't be a Shotoclone without a Fireball. You can't have it like that. It just doesn't work. So, hopefully, the rest of my maneuvers will be able to conpensate when burning the enemy alive with streams of semi weak fire or flaming punches are not par for the course.

The two weapon fighting line is a good series of feats compared to many feat trees. The problem that pops up is that while it is very cool, it doesn't work for many builds. For swordsages it can work, but it usually isn't optimal. If you look at the other Tiger Claw maneuvers, some of them allow you to use multiple attacks as part of the maneuver. The Burning Blade feat line and a few of the feats from the Tiger Claw tree work well with TWF, but others duplicate TWF's effect without having to take the feat. The way that the maneuvers in the Tiger Claw discipline were implemented is strange, to say the least.

To use TWF properly also requires the PC to use a Full Attack action during combat. This is part of an inherent problem with the entire melee system in d&d. If an enemy is 10 feet away from you, you could take a 5ft step and attack 6 times or so with TWF at a certain level. If an enemy is 15ft away from you, that 5ft step is no longer enough to allow you to get within range to do a full attack action and your movement + attack may leave you with only a standard action available, which is the equivalent of a normal single attack. To offset this you'd need to use Sudden Leap, Pouncing Strike, or find some way to take a dip into another class or PrC to get the Pounce ability. If you're starting at level 1, it's going to take you 8 levels to get up to level 9 where you'd gain access to Pouncing Strike. That leaves you with 1 oppurtunity to use your Two Weapon Fighting against an enemy more than 10 feet away before having to renew your maneuvers again.

Going the Two Weapon Fighting route is fairly common, but it's also very costly, doesn't always work out well, and continues to clog up your entire build with feat tax after feat tax. Just to be able to fight using only Dexterity, renew your maneuvers in a realistic manner, and use two weapons while fighting instead of one, you've already spend 6 freaking feats.
Valid Concerns, and Point taken, but I'd still like to pursue it if I can. Until I can pull it off reliably, I guess I'll simply make up for it with maneuvers.

I've played a swordsage before and I ended up using a Two handed weapon. The ever popular weapon to do this with is the Spiked Chain which has a number of good bonuses including a 10ft reach. The Spiked Chain is the most powerful option in this situation, but I recommend against using it for stylistic reasons. In the game I played in I ended up convincing my DM to let me gain access to the Elven Courtblade as a racial weapon proficiency as a trade in for my other racial weapon proficiencies and the promise not to go use a Spiked Chain. You could attempt a similar method or take the Exoctic Weapon Proficiency feat if you aren't an Elf (otherwise take the weird racial weapon proficiency feat). The Elven Courtblade is one of the few 2handed weapons that can be used along with Weapon Finesse (if you didn't know).

I prefer THWs for a swordsage since it seems cool and can free up some feat space for grabbing Combat Reflexes and Power Attack. Power Attack is a nice alternative for increasing melee damage even while not having a high strength score. Only 13 strength is required to use it. Combat Reflexes is always a fun feat for ripping enemies apart and is uncomfortably good if a character is using a Spiked Chain.
Had you reached me with this before my 1st character, I might have considered it. But I have absolutely -no- intentions of using a single weapon with this character. Being willing to purchase armor was a heavy decision in and of itself. No self respecting Akuma's going to fight with a Weapon. His fists are his power.

I understand that my choices aren't optimum, and that's a sacrifice I'm willing to go with. I just hope to be at least -good-. It seemed like Two Weapon Fighting wasn't a Trap persay, like how Weapon Focus normally is. And since I'm being allowed to use it with Monk grade Unarmed Combat, I figured that I'd be at least decent in my party.

Plus, I already started as a Human with Two Weapon Fighting and Adaptive Style, with nothing on me but basic essentials to live. And we're in prison. So I don't think I can retcon my choices. Not that I honestly want to all that badly, assuming I'm not making some horrible mistake.

So, that's my spiel. TWF isn't terrible, but I never really liked it for a class that doesn't use precision damage.
What exactly is precision damage, and how is it different from basic weapon damage? It just seems odd now...

You're strongly underestimating the Stone Dragon school if you overlook the Mountain Hammer feat. You don't have to take any more maneuvers in that discipline if you don't want to, but that maneuver is amazing. The ability to cut through any object's hardness or any enemies damage reduction is very impressive. That maneuver makes the difference between attacking a DR 15/whatever monster that ignores you completely and slitting the creature's throat apart with 15 more damage than your previous attacks. It's also useful for cutting anything within the entire game.
I agree with you one hundred percent there. I just wasn't sure if I'd be able to take Stone Dragon all the way up the scale, and wasn't sure on using the basic Hammer just for the sake of beating up Hardness. If I can, I do fully intend to capitalize on Ex-Punches. Because they're cool. And I can break down doors with them. Maybe the Bone series, too, if I have room.

However, for this particular character, Stone Dragon is still secondary to me. It beats out most of Shadow Hand (teleports and stances non-withstanding), but it's still in a waiting list behind Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, and Setting Sun.

[Gandariel]

Well, basically Sneak Attack applies only if the enemy is flanked or denied his Dex bonus.
Over the course of 20 levels, this will happen less and less times, if you don't specialize in that.
Enemies with critical attack immunity, constructs, undead, etc are all immune to precision damage(like sneak attack)
So if you don't invest heavily in it, you won't get much return.
Now if you are a charachter which FOCUSES on doing that sneak attack, like a rogue, he'd have all the good reasons to invest for it, and try every time to get in the right position for a good sneak attack.

but for 2d6+charachter level damage, it's not worth it, and doubly so if you occupy a feat slot and your stance; there are surely a lot of better options for that.

At level 20 you WILL do all of that stuff, but unless you really focus on that you won't be able to activate sneak attack consistently.
Also being sneaky is not really Akuma's style.

Also, thanks for the spelling of Tatsumaki Zankuukyaku
I had always called that TempuKyaku (but i am not a native english, i guess that's normal)

[Dusk Eclipse]

On two weapon fighting, realisticly you only need TWF as the Gloves of the Balanced Hand are quite cheap (8k gp IIRC) and give you improved TWF and this it frees you another feat. Just be sure to ask your DM nicely for them or convince him to let you find them in a quest or something.

[INoKnowNames]

Also being sneaky is not really Akuma's style.

Indeed. I intend to get into fights with the Fighter of the party regularly, and call him and the Rogue cowards because of their respetive styles. I'ma kick down everything that gets in my way (maybe I should ensure more Stone Dragon), and combo the -heck- out of anything that doesn't go down in that first hit.


Also, thanks for the spelling of Tatsumaki Zankuukyaku
I had always called that TempuKyaku (but i am not a native english, i guess that's normal)

This is the real reason I'm responding. I have to look up the name every single time I type it because I'm scared I'm missing it's spelling. The names are cool, but seriously, the Japanese can make some funny names. Say that one outloud a few times. TATSUMAKI ZANKUUKYAKU!

But it's going to be awesome when I first get Avalanche of Blades, walk up to some joker, and start kicking out their teeth. I'll probably yell it out then, too. TATSUMAKI ZANKUUKYAKU!

Actually, the more that I think about it, all those long worded names are just fun to say outloud. MESSATSU GOU HADOU! TENMA GO ZANKU! SHUN GOKU SATSU!

[INoKnowNames]

I went and asked my Dm about the Gloves for Two Weapon Combat... he gave me a maybe, but I think I'd rather err on him not applying that, which I perfectly understand. I'd just like to be cautious on the matter.

I'm not completely sold on getting rid of some of my 9th level maneuvers.... but I just realised something I want to do for this character.

Considering every single other level possible would be Swordsage, how many levels would I have to remove in order, from multiclassing into Warblade, to take at least Mithral Tornado, as well as Iron Heart Surge, and possibly White Raven Tactics?

I had a flash of insight. White Raven Tactics, then Pouncing Charge, then Girallon Flesh Rip into Time Stands Still, or Inferno Blade into Avalanche of Blades...

-That- would be a Combo right there, all with Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Snap Kick.

And then Mithral Tornado is cool. Just for the sake of being cool. Spin Kick!

I suppose I should ask if he minds if White Raven Tactics would be used in such a way, otherwise I'll probably just need to go with the maneuver progression I'm trying to figure out for Swordsage 20, since I'm not sure if the others are worth losing out on my high level abilities. Although White Raven Tactics certainly is if it can be used that way.

Random Question. I'm trying to figure out how to take Inferno Blast at level 17 or 18. By 17, I should have Leaping Flame, Inferno Blade, Fire Snake, and whatever level of Dragon's Flame I have enough room to switch out. Would I need to take a 5th maneuver at 17 before learning Inferno Blast at 18, or would I be able to qualify for Infero Blast at 17? I forget the ruling on the maneuver you're about to recieve counting as a technique or not.

If I have to wait until 18 for it, couldn't I take Wyvern's Flame at 17, and then replace Dragon's Flame with Inferno Blast at 18? Possible while taking another 9th Level Maneuver....

I kinda wish the Desert Wind Stances didn't seem so... eh...

[Eldariel]

Also, thanks for the spelling of Tatsumaki Zankuukyaku

Last I checked it was Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku (or "Hurricane Whirlwind Kick") :smalltongue:

[INoKnowNames]

Last I checked it was Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku (or "Hurricane Whirlwind Kick") :smalltongue:

Akuma is special. He gets his own dark versions of normal moves. In this case, the Hurricane Scythe Kick.