PF Repairing broken items confusion

[Coidzor]

So I stumbled upon the broken condition while looking over the fragile weapon property while familiarizing myself with the weapons over on the pfsrd.

So I was like, well, isn't that interesting, a 25% reduction in price even before haggling. So I started looking into the cost to repair such things and ran into a bit of confusion in the rules in regards to the way this is adjudicated.

The broken condition (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#broken) states that it's a DC 20 craft check and takes 1 hour per HP of damage to the object, and that getting a craftsperson to do it for one's self costs about 1/10th the cost unless it's suffered catastrophic failure rather than being merely badly damaged.

Whereas the craft rules (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/skills/craft.html#_craft) state that it takes 1/5th of the cost of the item against the DC of making the item in the first place and doesn't specify the time it takes to repair the item.

So what's going on? Paizo just really weren't paying attention when they wrote this? By 1/5th do they mean that it's 1/5th of 1/3 of the price for the raw materials so that repairing it one's self is 1/15th the price versus paying someone else to repair it for 1/10th the price? :smallconfused:

Do the craft rules take precedence due to being a "primary source," like in 3.X? Does the broken condition take precedence because specific trumps general? Do they both apply so that the rules make it so that NPCs can magically repair something for free but PCs have to pay money to do so, thus making craft skills even more pointless for PCs to take? Was there an answer from Paizo on the subject that I managed to miss that clears this all up?

[Bhaakon]

Getting someone do fix it costs 1/10th the price. Fixing it yourself costs 1/15th the price. The difference is the cost of labor.

Wait, I'm confused too now. hmm.

[grarrrg]

Cost? What cost?

Mending (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mending)
0th Level spell > Unlimited casting.

[Coidzor]

Cost? What cost?

Mending (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mending)
0th Level spell > Unlimited casting.

True, but one has to be fairly high level in order to have an effect on items, due to the 1 pound per caster level restriction.

That, or string together CL boosters, which are useful in a lot of other contexts, but I don't recall how many still work in PF.

[Mustard]

Let's see, here's me thinking "out loud":

According to Broken, to repair (using Craft): DC 20 Craft check, 1 hour per point of HP damage, no gp cost listed. If you take it to an NPC to repair, the gp cost is 1/10 the base cost of the item, and no time listed. There is an important point here: the previous method is prefaced with "generally speaking".

According to Craft, to repair: DC <item craft DC> Craft check, no time listed, gp cost equal to 1/5 the item price.

If you merge these rules, accepting unknowns as no cost, and treating the Broken condition's "generally speaking" clause as filling in otherwise unknown values, you get:
Make a craft check equal to the item's craft DC. If it doesn't have one, use DC 20. The amount of time it takes is 1 hour per point of hit point damage, and supplies are needed totaling 1/5 the item base price.

[Cieyrin]

True, but one has to be fairly high level in order to have an effect on items, due to the 1 pound per caster level restriction.

That, or string together CL boosters, which are useful in a lot of other contexts, but I don't recall how many still work in PF.

Or just use Make Whole, which is now also a Sor/Wiz spell, so you can fix most anything for 3d6 per casting, as long as they fit in a 10' cube.

As for this, it looks like Paizo didn't consult Craft when writing up new conditions with Sunder. On the one hand, Craft doesn't say how long it takes to fix anything. On the other, Broken seems to just throw a DC out there. I'd just go with your best judgement or stick to Mending/Make Whole. I'll put up a thread over at Paizo and maybe get some errata generated. Emphasis on 'maybe,' given their speed of reply sometimes...

[Coidzor]

I'll put up a thread over at Paizo and maybe get some errata generated. Emphasis on 'maybe,' given their speed of reply sometimes...

:smalleek: Good luck. I'd hate for something bad to happen to you on my account though.

[Mustard]

So, nobody likes my breakdown? Is there anything particularly wrong with it?

[Coidzor]

So, nobody likes my breakdown? Is there anything particularly wrong with it?

Well, it comes back to the original problem I was having. That it's cheaper all around to have an NPC do it for you unless you completely throw it out the window, or else NPCs are actually working at a loss on repair jobs.

Breaks verisimilitude on the one hand, doesn't make the rules as written make any more sense, and screws over the few people who put ranks into craft on the other if their gear gets broken and they don't have a caster on hand.

[Mustard]

Well, it comes back to the original problem I was having. That it's cheaper all around to have an NPC do it for you unless you completely throw it out the window, or else NPCs are actually working at a loss on repair jobs.

Breaks verisimilitude on the one hand, doesn't make the rules as written make any more sense, and screws over the few people who put ranks into craft on the other if their gear gets broken and they don't have a caster on hand.

The 1/10th figure for NPCs versus the 1/5th figure for PCs can make some sense if you consider a few possibilities, such as: they have a fully equipped forge, laboratory, or whatever, got their materials at wholesale cost, and maybe repairs are delegated to a work-for-free apprentice, but still, I see what you're saying.

On the other hand, I wouldn't say it "screws over" anyone with ranks in Craft. I would expect Craft to be most often used for creating items rather than repairing them. The spells that repair are more of a problem than the mundane repair rules, I'd say. I do like that you can repair magic items with mundane means, though. So it's not like you really need a caster, you're just remiss not to have one.

Look on the bright side, at least there's no ambiguity (it's "just" badly worded). Those always give me a headache! :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

The 1/10th figure for NPCs versus the 1/5th figure for PCs can make some sense if you consider a few possibilities, such as: they have a fully equipped forge, laboratory, or whatever, got their materials at wholesale cost, and maybe repairs are delegated to a work-for-free apprentice, but still, I see what you're saying.

No, those things are not sufficient to justify that discrepancy. Especially if your PC, say, has leadership or owns a bloody blacksmithing business.


On the other hand, I wouldn't say it "screws over" anyone with ranks in Craft.

It means they're disadvantaged versus NPCs, and are better off acquiring a pet NPC crafter than to craft themselves. Which is the point behind the snarling.


Look on the bright side, at least there's no ambiguity (it's "just" badly worded). Those always give me a headache! :smalltongue:

True. They don't really have grounds to insult people's intelligence for picking up on this discrepancy at least.

[grarrrg]

Further compounding the broken Broken rules we have Firearms.


Misfires:....When a firearm misfires, it gains the broken condition.

No change in the gun's HP. It's just broken now.
If it takes 1 hour per HP/Damage to repair, does that mean I can repair it instantly?

[Coidzor]

Further compounding the broken Broken rules we have Firearms.



No change in the gun's HP. It's just broken now.
If it takes 1 hour per HP/Damage to repair, does that mean I can repair it instantly?

Either that or by getting set to the broken condition, the gungets set to 1 less than half HP. :smallconfused:

Screwy either way.

[Cieyrin]

Further compounding the broken Broken rules we have Firearms.



No change in the gun's HP. It's just broken now.
If it takes 1 hour per HP/Damage to repair, does that mean I can repair it instantly?

Hmm, I could have sworn I read a section on that that cleared that up in UC since the playtest but apparently not. Odd...

[Cieyrin]

Well, the Paizo forums was trying to tell me that Price and Cost are defined terms and that the fix cost and price charged by NPC crafters are the same cost.

I think just taking Craft's price and DC to fix at the rate provided in Broken is the best solution here, ignoring the DC and cost charged by NPC crafters provided there, as it makes no logical sense and definitely appears to have been just thrown down on the page.

So, in clear writing:
Repair Items: You can repair an item by making checks against the same DC that it took to make the item in the first place. The cost of repairing an item is one-fifth the item's price. It takes 1 hour of work for each hit point recovered, making a Craft check after each hour. NPC craftsmen charge twice the cost of repair.

As for repairing firearms, I found the relevant passage, it's in the Gunsmithing feat, which all Gunslingers get as a bonus feat. You just need a Gunsmith's Kit and an hour of work to fix the Broken condition on a single firearm. Still not clear what the procedure is if you use mending or make whole, other than make whole supposedly fixes an exploded firearm.

[grarrrg]

As for repairing firearms, I found the relevant passage, it's in the Gunsmithing feat, which all Gunslingers get as a bonus feat. You just need a Gunsmith's Kit and an hour of work to fix the Broken condition on a single firearm. Still not clear what the procedure is if you use mending or make whole, other than make whole supposedly fixes an exploded firearm.

Well technically Mending says (emphasis mine)

restoring 1d4 hit points to the object. If the object has the broken condition, this condition is removed if the object is restored to at least half its original hit points

Gun with 100% HP, but broken.
Cast Mending, which restores 1d4 HP.
Gun has >50% HP, so it is no longer broken.:smallsmile:

[Mustard]

No, those things are not sufficient to justify that discrepancy. Especially if your PC, say, has leadership or owns a bloody blacksmithing business.
Good point, I hadn't considered that possibility.



It means they're disadvantaged versus NPCs, and are better off acquiring a pet NPC crafter than to craft themselves. Which is the point behind the snarling.
I was just disagreeing with "screws over" as being an overly strong term, but I'll withdraw that, as it's not really important in trying to figure this system out.

<Wait a minute, though (I'd rather interject this than change my entire post, in order to preserve information, and to be a little lazy). Maybe "Most craftsmen charge one-tenth the item's total cost to repair such damage" is a surcharge on top of the 1/5 actual material cost? It's not obvious in the text either way, but that liberal interpretation makes more sense. This invalidates my saying there's no ambiguity, but this is the lesser evil type of ambiguities, perhaps.>



True. They don't really have grounds to insult people's intelligence for picking up on this discrepancy at least.
This is a good FAQ/errata candidate, which should be easy for Paizo to fix. I imagine the success rate is pretty low, but it does happen when the planets align. I mean, a lot of the typos in UM got fixed. I mean, "Reduce Nature's Lore". Really, contributors? Really? But I digress.