So, Incarnum...help a brother out

[King Atticus]

I'm currently interested in just a straight natural attack, damage dealing beast. I was thinking of going Half-Dragon/Water Orc Totemist going into Thayan Gladiator (ToB isn't allowed, please no derailment in that direction) but I've run into a problem, I can't wrap my head around how Totemist works. Can anybody give me an incarnum for dummies lesson?

In addition, any and all suggestions or optimizations are welcome and appreciated. Nothing from the Eberron setting is allowed but everything else is fair game (except ToB).

Thanks in advance for the help

[Dumbledore lives]

First of all instead of half-dragon it would probably be best to go dragonborn if you want draconic flavor, because that 3 LA will really hurt, limiting how much essentia you can put into your soulmelds, and basically just sucking your class levels away for far too long.

Incarnum for dummies: You have soulmelds, essentia and chakra binds.

Soulmelds are the things that give you abilities, there's a decent summary of all the basic abilities in the Totemist table of the soulmeld section. You can only have one soulmeld per slot, but you can bind anything, from crown to soul, starting from the first level.

Essentia is what powers up these abilities, generally increasing skill bonuses or damage or something like that. You never have enough of this, because every soulmeld can have 1-6 depending on your level, and you will never have enough to fill even have your stuff, even with feats.

Binds are what give you the natural attacks for a Totemist. At level 2 you get the ability to bind things to your totem, now each soulmeld has a different effect for this, good ones include Landshark boots, Girillon Claws, and Manticore Belt, though that last one is for ranged attacks. Later you gain the ability to bind soulmelds to other chakras, starting with your crown, feet, and hands. When you bind one like this it means you can't have a magic item in the same slot, so you can't wear boots of striding and springing if you bound landshark boots to your feet.

[NeoSeraphi]

No Eberron means no warforged or shifters. That's okay. You can play a skarn (From MoI) instead, for the optimization.

Skarns get +2 Str, -2 Dex, and are much much better than Water Orcs for a totemist. You have almost as much Strength, with no mental penalties, and more importantly, you have your own natural attack (a spine) which will stack with all the other naturals that a totemist gets.

As for how incarnum works, it's actually pretty simple. You get a certain number of soulmelds per day. Each soulmeld has a few body slots it can be assigned to. You choose one for each (can't have more than one of the same slot filled up) and then you gain the Shaped benefit. The shaped benefit is generally a small thing like a skill bonus or a bonus to attack or damage rolls or saves, augmented by how many essentia you put in.

Then there's binding...argh...I lost my motivation already. Look, you get a Totem bind at 2nd level. Check which of your meldshapes has the best totem shape, and put it there, then bind it to your totem (I suggest Girallon Arms or Threefold Mask of the Chimera).

After you choose your soulmelds and chakra binds, the benefits last for 24 hours. So go out and maul things!

[Togath]

Actually, warforged and shifters are also in mmIII so they may still be options.
Though skarn is pretty good for a totemist as well, as in addidtion to the abilities mentioned by neo it also is an incarnum race, granting it an extra point of essenstia if I remember it's stats correctly

[Hiro Protagonest]

Skarns get +2 Str, -2 Dex, and are much much better than Water Orcs for a totemist. You have almost as much Strength, with no mental penalties, and more importantly, you have your own natural attack (a spine) which will stack with all the other naturals that a totemist gets.

The person who made skarn probably thought it was too powerful to give them extra attacks, so skarn spines follow different rules and are near useless.

[Big Fau]

Actually, warforged and shifters are also in mmIII so they may still be options.
Though skarn is pretty good for a totemist as well, as in addidtion to the abilities mentioned by neo it also is an incarnum race, granting it an extra point of essenstia if I remember it's stats correctly

Skarn do not grant bonus essentia.

[Togath]

darn

needed extra letters to post

[Gotterdammerung]

Incarnum is like the easiest system once you figure it out. Only downside is it is a pain in the butt when you are trying to figure it out.

It is kind of like riding a bike. Once you figure it out, you are riding along like "man this is easy."

I will try my best to speed the adjustment process.

Your class tells you how many melds you know. unlike spells, melds do not have levels. You can pick any of the ones on your list.

Your class tells you how much essentia you have. You also get more essentia from your race. and from certain feats.

Your class tells you which soul chakras open and how many you can bind at one time. Feats can open up more chakras but they can not raise the number you can bind at one time.

ok so wat is a soul meld?
Well it is this thing you can shape in the mornin.
Can I shape two hand slot soul melds? You can with a feat. But otherwise no. normally you have a one soul meld per item slot.

What is a soul chakra and how do I use it?
Well as you progress in levels, you will open up new chakras corresponding to different item slots. If you choose to, you can bind a soul meld in a matching slot to its chakra.

What does binding it do? Well it firstly makes it to where you can no longer benefit from a magic item in that item slot, unless you take a feat. And secondly it adds an effect to your soul meld. It is different for each soul meld.

Can I have multiple chakra's bound.
Yes you can. But it is limited to a certain number by your class.

Can I have 2 chakras bound to 2 different soul melds that are in the same slot? Normall NOPE, but with a feat yes. But even then only the two.

What is a totem chakra?
ah it is a tricky dicky chakra slot. It doesn't have a corresponding item slot. This is a good thing because it does not interfere with your magic items.

Can I have 2 melds bound to my totem chakra? Normally, no. But with a feat yes.

What is essentia? You get essentia from various sources. It piles up in an essentia pool.

To understand it better you need to look at the essentia cap chart in the beginning of the book. This chart shows you the maximum essentia you can put in a receptacle by your lvl.

essentia starts out in your pool. For a swift action you can decide to put it into receptacles. You can not put more than the max for your lvl on the chart in any one receptacle. It stays where you put it until you decide to take a swift to switch essentia around again.

It is worth noting that some receptacles require you to put in essentia in the beginning of the day and lock in the essentia for 24 hours. This is an exception to the whole swift easy change of essentia I previously described. The receptacle will specify changes like this in the description usually.

What are some examples of Essentia Receptacles, besides the obvious soul melds? Well incarnum feats, and incarnum based class features.

Is there any way for me to gain a higher max essentia for my receptacles.
Yes!
Your totem chakra allows you to have a higher essentia capacity for any meld bound to your totem chakra. You can take a feat to put 2 melds bound to your totem chakra to gain this benefit on two melds.
There is a feat that lets you pick one meld at the beginning of the day. That meld has a +1 essentia capacity. You can pick a different one each day if you want. You can take this feat more than once.

The class incarnate gains a higher essentia capacity for all soulmelds.

There is a feat that raises the essentia capacity for all incarnum feats.


What does essentia do?
Well receptacles usually do a thing without ANY essentia in them.

They do an even better thing for each essentia invested in them.

And if they are bound they do an extra thing without any essentia in them.

And they do an even better extra thing for each essentia invested in them.


I hope tha helps.

[Big Fau]

The person who made skarn probably thought it was too powerful to give them extra attacks, so skarn spines follow different rules and are near useless.

Um, the rules of a Skarn's Spine attack are slightly different, but you can still use them with a full attack.


A skarn can make one attack with his arm spines each round, either with his primary hand or with his off-hand (taking the normal penalties for fighting with an off-hand weapon). This attack deals 1d6 points of piercing damage; if it is used as an off-hand weapon, the skarn may add only one-half his Strength bonus to the damage roll. A skarn can’t attack with his spines and a weapon wielded by the same arm in the same round. If a skarn makes a spine attack with an arm carrying a shield, he loses the shield’s bonus to AC until the start of his next turn.

That part only stops manufactured weapons.

[gorfnab]

The Incarnum Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551.0)

The Totemist Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2943.0)

[Gotterdammerung]

Manticore Belt, though that last one is for ranged attacks.

one of my GMs hit us with a 10 totemist/10 beastmaster villain using manticore belt and share soulmeld with 4 flying animal companions, one of them being his mount.

It would be a horribad idea for a player but it was pretty raunchy as a throw away villain.

The little toot was throwing 30 manticore spines a round at 1d6+1/2 str damage each. And they were focusing fire.



Also, as a side note. I strongly suggest talking with your GM about the incarnum-magic transparency.

It is easy for a dm to default and say ya they are transparent. But incarnum is not like psionics. It is cool and can do some neat and arguably strong stuff. But it does not have the same size of source material to pool from as magic and psionics do.

I would make this case to him. Incarnum should be seperate from magic and psionics, not transparent because:

1# it has a tiny amount of material to build from and therefore is nowhere near equal to psionics and magic in power.

#2 mages and psions don't need any help.

#3 magic and psionics severely shut down a incarnum if transparency is allowed. I played a campaign that started with a 6th lvl beguiler a 6th lvl warmage and a 6th lvl psion. Our first fight we beat an 18th lvl incarnate. He was supposed to auto knock us out and take us to prison so we could break out, thus the off balance CR. Instead, he got spanked because of dispel spams stripping away his entire character. Transparency just isn't fair here.

#4 Allowing transparency completely undermines the entire point of the feat "Incarnum spellshaping". This feat gives access to special incarnum spells that do things like strip essentia, dispel melds, and unbind melds. None of these spells are needed anymore if you allow transparency.

#5 the fluff doesn't match. Incarnum is shaping things with the internal power of the soul. It has nothing to do with the weave.

[Big Fau]

one of my GMs hit us with a 10 totemist/10 beastmaster villain using manticore belt and share soulmeld with 4 flying animal companions, one of them being his mount.

It would be a horribad idea for a player but it was pretty raunchy as a throw away villain.

The little toot was throwing 30 manticore spines a round at 1d6+1/2 str damage each. And they were focusing fire.

If that ever happens again, remind your DM that Share Soulmeld does not extend to Chakra Binds.

[Gotterdammerung]

If that ever happens again, remind your DM that Share Soulmeld does not extend to Chakra Binds.

We had that conversation. There was enough reasonable doubt to warrant a GM call. We respected the ruling.

Ultimately, it ended up being my favorite kind of fight.

A. Reasonable danger.
B. focused fire style for compounded danger.
C. Danger averted by sound preparation, tactics, teamwork, and tricks.

It was the same beguiler, warmage, psion group.

Except now the beguiler (me) had become a beguiler fatespinner Arcane disciple unseen servant combo thing. And the warmage had taken quite a few lvls in dracolexi, and the psion had become a cerbromancer, and we had picked up a new character, an unseelie fey templated dread necromancer.

The beguiler and the psion took the role of counter and battlefield control and general babysitting. They would occasionally combo together for insta nerf combos when appropriate or just when feeling spunky (things like touch of idiocy *tag* Ego Whip). The Warmage and the necro were just there to clear the board. The necro handled her own defense most of the time. Which meant me and the psion often needed to babysit the annoying warmage dead weight guy.

Of course in this manticore example, the warmage got targeted. He was the only viable target because he is the quintessential sitting duck. And he would of died if not for the psion. The psion interrupted the volley just before the killing spine, then he D doored the necro and the warmage out of combat range. His delay teleport bought them a few safe rounds. This left the beguiler, who was nigh impossible to pinpoint versus a pretty mundane threat with no chance of finding him. The threat was neutralized before the rest of the party came back to reality.


So basically I am glad he ruled it the way he did. It ended up being fun, and it made the dead wait guy rethink his character and become a little less dead weighty.

[Person_Man]

Dump Thayan Gladiator. Strait Totemist is a lot more powerful.

Can you use material from Dragon Magic and/or Dragon Magazine?

What ECL are you playing at?

[Psyren]

Mongrelfolk (RoD) is an amazing race for a Totemist. +4 Con, negatives to dump stats, assorted other bonuses and 0 LA. They can even take human-only feats like Able Learner.

[King Atticus]

What ECL are you playing at?

This is a backup for my current character in the campaign I'm playing now so I don't have a firm ECL, but I'd say 10+.


Can you use material from Dragon Magic and/or Dragon Magazine?

I can use anything except Eberron or ToB, with Dragon magazine I would need to be able to show my work so I would need specific issue #'s


Dump Thayan Gladiator. Strait Totemist is a lot more powerful.

Thayan Gladiator was mostly fluff in my idea to bring in the pit fighter feel, but I'm up for anything.



Mongrelfolk (RoD) is an amazing race for a Totemist. +4 Con, negatives to dump stats, assorted other bonuses and 0 LA. They can even take human-only feats like Able Learner.

I'll check this out, I've never actually looked at them before.


So far so good, everyone has been really helpful. If anyone has played a mauler type totemist before or has a build idea they think would be strong I'd be interested in taking a look at it.

Thanks Guys

[Demon of Death]

I can use anything except Eberron or ToB, with Dragon magazine I would need to be able to show my work so I would need specific issue #'s

I am going to assume he was going to refer to Dragon 350 Page 86 for 3 more Soulmelds, one of which grants the "Wing Buffet" Natural Attack, then bind it to your Shoulders to deal lethal damage with them.

Also, this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) article has 5 Soulmelds, and it's recommend that you use a feat for "Shape Soulmeld" on the Astral Vambraces then bind them to your Hands to get 2 Slam Attacks

[Rubik]

A two-level dip of totemist with a psion base can do some truly amazing things. Look at the Psionic Open Chakra power in the magic section. Note that it gets you most (though not all) of what totemist gives you. Now check out the Psycarnum Infusion feat. Look at how it combines with incarnum feats (expend your focus and fill up a feat, which lasts for 24 hours).

Note that the Open Psionic Chakra power gains additional chakra bindings due to augmentation, and think about what happens when you boost your ML through various means (such as Overchannel, binding a meta- rod of Extend, orange ioun stones, and so on), and consider the fact that you can bind to chakras well before any other type of character can bind them.

Now laugh maniacally.

[Psyren]

Don't forget Midnight Augmentation abuse. But that's not very nice :smalltongue:

[sonofzeal]

No Eberron means no warforged or shifters. That's okay. You can play a skarn (From MoI) instead, for the optimization.

FYI - strange as it sounds, "Races of Eberron" is not an Eberron book, but an oddly-named attempt to port the Eberron races back into the general stream. Check it out, it's got the standard 3.5 imprint and doesn't have the Eberron one on it.

DMs can
use this book as a resource for creating NPCs and
adventures, either in the EBERRON campaign setting
or in any setting of their own creation that includes
these unique and interesting races. This book also
includes the basic descriptions of the races that it
covers, making it possible to make and play characters
of these races even if you don’t own the EBERRON
Campaign Setting book.

Also, I think Warforged might have been in... MM3/4?

[Piggy Knowles]

As a minor aside...

I never see it mentioned as a potential Prestige Class for totemists, but rilkans and skarn both have the (Reptilian) subtype, meaning they qualify for the Scaled Horror prestige class super easily. A one level dip gives you improved grab... which is nice, since Totemists make kick-arse grapplers (Girallon Arms being probably the single best way to boost your grapple check except for maybe Expansion).

A skarn Bear Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bearTotemClassFeatures ) 2/Totemist 7/Scaled Horror 1/Totem Rager 10 can dish out excellent damage with six or seven natural attacks, tons of bonus damage from raging and Cobalt Rage, and grapples on each hit. You could do a lot worse...

(Actually, if you want to add in some dragon flavor, play a Dragonborn Skarn - you get better stats, and you also qualify for the Dragon Tail feat at first level to give yet another natural attack to your routine.)

EDIT: Forgot to mention, the Scaled Horror prestige class is from Savage Species.

[Psyren]

MM3, but there's plenty of options even without Eberron races. Dusklings get a con bonus and bonus essentia; Half-Giants work great for a grappling build in spite of the LA; even the lowly dwarf is all-around awesome at Incarnum.

[Rubik]

Don't forget Midnight Augmentation abuse. But that's not very nice :smalltongue:I generally do use MA, though the way I use it is that the total amount of pp you spend on the power (augmented) is equal to the amount of essentia in the feat. Granted, having -1 pp per augmentation on, say, Astral Construct is insane, but I really doubt that getting a 9th level construct at level 9 for 9 pp was quite what the developer had in mind when he wrote it.

[Gotterdammerung]

Now check out the Psycarnum Infusion feat. Look at how it combines with incarnum feats (expend your focus and fill up a feat, which lasts for 24 hours).


Psycarnum Infusion won't work with incarnum feats in that way. You can use it to pretend you have essentia invested into an incarnum feat. But it won't last for 24 hours. It will only last for one round.

I can see how it might seem like it would work. Once an incarnum feat has essentia in it, the essentia is locked in for 24 hours. And so if psy infusion puts essentia in the feat it should get locked in right?

Well, no. Mainly because psycarnum infusion does not actually create any real essentia. Example, I expend my psionic focus to use psycarnum infusion and I choose to alter the incarnum feat Azure toughness. At this point in my career Azure toughness has a maximum essentia capacity of 3. So I gain 9 temporary hit points.

Does my Azure Toughness feat actually have any essentia invested in it? Nope
It is treated like it had 3 essentia in it. But there isn't actually any esentia invested in it. Since there isn't any real essentia in it, the essentia can not be locked in for 24 hours.
So at the end of the round when psycarnum infusion's effect ends, so does my bonus from azure toughness.

[Psyren]

I generally do use MA, though the way I use it is that the total amount of pp you spend on the power (augmented) is equal to the amount of essentia in the feat. Granted, having -1 pp per augmentation on, say, Astral Construct is insane, but I really doubt that getting a 9th level construct at level 9 for 9 pp was quite what the developer had in mind when he wrote it.

Even the least abusive interpretation (Subtract essentia invested from total cost of augmentable power once) still makes it good. It's like Overchannel, but free, and stacks with same.

[kardar233]

I've never tried, but I'd imagine a Totemist/Black Blood Cultist would be a nasty piece of work.

[Metahuman1]

I personally would advise talking a bit with your DM and asking him if he'd be down with this:


Take Mongrel Folk, or Water Orc, as the base race. Pick up Dragon Born.

If your REALLY looking for a Push up here, Pick up Goliath or Half Minotaur on the Mongrel Folk or Water Orc, or if your feeling really cheesy and the DM will rule that Powerful build get's you out of the +1 LA for half Minotaur, grab Goliath and Half Minotaur, and Dragon Born.

Now, if at third level you have an LA, buy it off. Then, while still at lvl 3, pick up Mineral Warrior. Then buy it off as well, if the DM is cool with that.

The point of this is too boost your Con score as insanely high as possible.

Other benefits would include boosting a tetitary stat (Strength.), picking up the DR on Mineral Warrior, and either half Minotaur and/or Goliath if you go that particular route granting you a nice boost to your grapple checks if you happen to opt for the grapple build.


Why all this to boost your Con? Cause your a Totemist, one of the few classes that can go Single Attribute dependent. And the attribute for you, is Con.


Tips for class dips that I have not seen mentioned.

If you can get a couple of Meta-breath feats to work, a dip into Dragon Fire Adept might help give you an extra trick or two for when you need it. Always handy.

If you happen to have the feats to spare, a dip of Fist of the Forest is an alternative means of picking up a slam attack and grants you Con to AC. Depending on how in your game Soul Melds, Armor, and that class feature all interact with one another, this can either be worthless or a nice boost. And yet another reason to really want to jack that Con score through the roof.

[gorfnab]

Soul Eater (BoVD) is a great 1 level dip for a Totemist build focused on natural attacks. The only real odd prereq for Soul Eater is "non-humanoid".

[Gotterdammerung]

Don't forget Midnight Augmentation abuse. But that's not very nice :smalltongue:

The worst case of midnight augmentation abuse I have been able to come up with:

Requires
-2 characters
-both with midnight augmentation
-both with Full Manifester classes
-both with 2 essentia
-both must learn and be able to manifest "Bestow Power", a 2nd lvl psion/wilder spell and be capable of being affected by this power.

-both must be of 6th lvl or greater

(For example, let's use two 6th lvl duskling psions with midnight augmentation and Bestow Power named Bob and Squirrel.)

Step 1). Bob and Squirrel put 2 essentia into midnight augmentation and assign its benefit to the "Bestow Power" power.

Step 2). Bob casts Bestow power on Squirrel and spends 5 power points to give Squirrel 6 power points. Bob is now down 5 power points and Squirrel is up 6 power points.

Step 3). Squirrel casts Bestow power on Bob and spends 5 power points to give Bob 6 power points. Both now have 1 power point more than when they started.

Step 4). Repeat steps 2 and 3 until desired power point total is reached.

Step 5). ADVENTURE!!


Ok so 1 power point extra every 6 seconds might not sound like much. But that is 10 extra power points in one minute, and 600 extra power points in an hour.

While the wizard is reading, and the cleric is praying, and the warriors are tending to their weapons and armor, Bob and Squirrel are locked in an epic staring contest.

Also, it scales
lvl 8 spend 6 to give 8.
20 extra in a minute, 1200 in an hour.

lvl 10 spend 7 to give 10.
30 extra in a minute, 1800 in an hour.

lvl 12 spend 8 to give 12.
40 extra in a minute, 2400 in an hour.

lvl 14 spend 9 to give 14.
50 extra in a minute, 3000 in an hour.

lvl 16 spend 10 to give 16.
60 extra in a minute, 3600 in an hour.

lvl 18 spend 11 to give 18.
70 extra in a minute, 4200 in an hour.

lvl 20 spend 12 to give 20
80 extra in a minute, 4800 in an hour.



Now, just think about what Bob and Squirrel can do with 4800 extra bonus power points each!

How about fission! Bob 1 and Bob 2 plus Squirrel 1 and Squirrel 2 would be quite the handful! Each would have 1/2 normal power points + 2400 extra power points. Bob 1 and Squirrel 1 would be normal 20th lvl psions. Bob 2 and Squirrel 2 would be 18th lvl psions with no gear. Quite the handful indeed!

[tyckspoon]

#3 magic and psionics severely shut down a incarnum if transparency is allowed. I played a campaign that started with a 6th lvl beguiler a 6th lvl warmage and a 6th lvl psion. Our first fight we beat an 18th lvl incarnate. He was supposed to auto knock us out and take us to prison so we could break out, thus the off balance CR. Instead, he got spanked because of dispel spams stripping away his entire character. Transparency just isn't fair here.


Er.. how? You still have to roll the standard dispel check against a DC determined by the target's meldshaper level, so they're exactly as difficult to dispel as a normal caster's spells (and level 6 casters should have approximately 0 chance against a level 18 meldshaper.. that would be a DC 29 they need to beat on their dispels rolls..) and a 'dispelled' soulmeld is treated like a dispelled magic item, not a spell- it's only suppressed for 1d4 rounds. It's not unbound, unshaped, or even has essentia removed from it. And since they're treated as items, you need an individual Dispel for each meld- targeting the meldshaper will do *nothing* to his melds, and an Area dispel will skip them entirely as 'attended items'. Dispelling soulmelds without using the actual specific anti-soulmeld spells is usually just a huge waste of time.

(Note that it's unrelated to incarnum-magic transparency, but magic does screw over incarnum pretty hard if it wants to- those anti-incarnum spells aren't actually [Incarnum] spells, so they can be learned without blowing a feat on Incarnum Spellshaping. And the combo of Divest Essentia and Essentia Lock is just a huge whopping kick in the face to any meldshaper- Divest Essentia is a no-save effect that reallocates all your essentia to the base pool, so all of your melds have 0 essentia in them.. and then Essentia Lock is a no-save effect that prevents you from reassigning essentia for the duration. The kicker? Divest Essentia is a natively Swift spell, so it's a one-round combo that the incarnum-user can't really do a damn thing about.)

[Gotterdammerung]

Er.. how? You still have to roll the standard dispel check against a DC determined by the target's meldshaper level, so they're exactly as difficult to dispel as a normal caster's spells (and level 6 casters should have approximately 0 chance against a level 18 meldshaper.. that would be a DC 29 they need to beat on their dispels rolls..) and a 'dispelled' soulmeld is treated like a dispelled magic item, not a spell- it's only suppressed for 1d4 rounds. It's not unbound, unshaped, or even has essentia removed from it. And since they're treated as items, you need an individual Dispel for each meld- targeting the meldshaper will do *nothing* to his melds, and an Area dispel will skip them entirely as 'attended items'. Dispelling soulmelds without using the actual specific anti-soulmeld spells is usually just a huge waste of time.

(Note that it's unrelated to incarnum-magic transparency, but magic does screw over incarnum pretty hard if it wants to- those anti-incarnum spells aren't actually [Incarnum] spells, so they can be learned without blowing a feat on Incarnum Spellshaping. And the combo of Divest Essentia and Essentia Lock is just a huge whopping kick in the face to any meldshaper- Divest Essentia is a no-save effect that reallocates all your essentia to the base pool, so all of your melds have 0 essentia in them.. and then Essentia Lock is a no-save effect that prevents you from reassigning essentia for the duration. The kicker? Divest Essentia is a natively Swift spell, so it's a one-round combo that the incarnum-user can't really do a damn thing about.)

It was the first fight of a campaign that went to 25th lvl that I played 3 or 4 years ago. Simple case of fuzzy brain. I probably have the levels wrong. All i remember for sure, he was much higher than us. Terrain control, teleportations, and illusions stalled him while we spammed dispels to find which meld was giving him SR. Once the SR meld was suppressed the warmage was able to kill him before it came back on line.

I know dispel magic is not the most efficient way to deal with an incarnum user. But that is kind of my point. If it weren't for transparency, we would not have been able to beat that guy.

Incarnum deserves to be in its own little category.