The Pun Pun of Pathfinder: How do you break the game?

[Vemynal]

Hey everyone, I got into a little bit of a debate earlier today with a friend about the dynamics of Pathfinder vs. 3.5.

This was a nice break from our usual; "_____ is the most awesome ____" haha.

The point of discussion came up because I enjoy 3.5 because the game is highly customizable due to all the books that have been released. Whereas my friend prefers pathfinder since he claims that since there are so few books out; it is impossible to break the game.

I conceded that 3.5 is easier to break than pathfinder but he holds that there is no way to *break* pathfinder with the released material.

Fact is, while I've perused the rules I don't know the system or its tricks like I do 3.5

So that is now my question.

Dear Playground;

How do I create a tier 0 or tier 0.5 class from pathfinder? Unlock the powers of Pun Pun for me! Please =)

[legomaster00156]

Cry havoc and let loose the munchkins of war!

[Bhaakon]

I've seen a number of people cite legitimate rules loopholes to prove that pathfinder is far from balanced, but never to pun-pun levels of game breakage (by which I mean ultimate power at low levels).

[Vemynal]

Pun Pun here is being used as an example of the depths I'm willing to sink.

But cool class builds such as Horizon Tripper styled melee Dimension door abuse is the shallow end.

So if you know some rules to abuse, feel free to inform =)

[Blisstake]

Oh, it's definitely possible. Some of the 3.5 vets have pointed out certain abuses with wish economy that are still possible using the PF ruleset.

[Ravens_cry]

A simple mental score loop: Reincarnate, live your life, die, reincarnate, live your life, die, reincarnate, etcetera.

[SamBurke]

Pun Pun here is being used as an example of the depths I'm willing to sink.

But cool class builds such as Horizon Tripper styled melee Dimension door abuse is the shallow end.

So if you know some rules to abuse, feel free to inform =)

PSssssh. Claiming that's abuse is like claiming an 8th level spell on a 17th level character is abuse. Seriously, the number of feats you have to take and the high level of the spell forces it to be a late, late, late-game use.

Only gimmick I know requires use of some Adventure Module feats. (Divine Spark).

I have to nearly agree with the friend: other than Wizards (which are still uber-powered) and the standard dnd balance issues, PF is reaaaaaaaally close to unbreakability. I'd say it's about as unbreakable as ToB.

[Alleran]

Only gimmick I know requires use of some Adventure Module feats. (Divine Spark).
Which module and how does it work, exactly?

[Mystify]

Its not pun-pun level, but it did allow my group to deal 500,000 damage in 5 rounds.

Step one: get a really good crit range. Preferably on multiple attacks. On multiple characters

Step two: have them all take teamwork feats to get extra attacks
Specifically, broken wing gambit (first time the enemy attacks you, everyone gets an attack), seizethe moment(get an attack op when your ally crits an enemy). It does not take much luck to reach critical mass, where you can expect at least 1 crit on each round of attack ops, allowing everyone to take an extra attack, which means more crits, etc, allowing everyone to expend all of their attacks of opportunity. Combo with high dex for more attacks. You can add in feats to give you bonuses to attacks on AoOs for more accuracy.

[Bhaakon]

A simple mental score loop: Reincarnate, live your life, die, reincarnate, live your life, die, reincarnate, etcetera.

How would that work? The physical penalties would accrue just like the mental bonuses. Eventually you'd run out of constitution and die permanently.

[Eldan]

Keep in mind that I'm not really familiar with the details of Pathfinder.

However, from what I heard, Candles of Invocation, Wish and Efreet all still exist. Therefore, it should be possible to set up 3.5s generic wish-loop.

[Jeraa]

How would that work? The physical penalties would accrue just like the mental bonuses. Eventually you'd run out of constitution and die permanently.

Because Reincarnate gives you a new, young adult body.


The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand.

Since you are now physically younger, you should lose the ageing penalties to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. However, since you are still the same mentally, you should retain the bonuses to your mental scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma).



However, from what I heard, Candles of Invocation, Wish and Efreet all still exist. Therefore, it should be possible to set up 3.5s generic wish-loop.

But Pathfinder did remove the ability to create items (magical or mundane) from Wish. (Well, you still can, but its no longer on the "safe list" of the spell, so its a GMs discretion thing.) I don't know if that was needed for the wish-loops or not.

[Bhaakon]

You can't wish for magic items in PF (without DM intervention), so you wouldn't be able to wish for another candle and complete the loop.

[SamBurke]

Which module and how does it work, exactly?

I forget the module, but the feat's text is roughly this:


When casting a spell with the [Fire] Descriptor, you may heal an adjacent ally for 1/2 your cleric levels.

Obviously go with Spark, infinite healing. There's Errata for it, but the errata is only for the official PF Society, and is not in legal gameplay. (HHAHAHA!)

[Bhaakon]

Because Reincarnate gives you a new, young adult body.



Since you are now physically younger, you should lose the ageing penalties to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. However, since you are still the same mentally, you should retain the bonuses to your mental scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma).

If you're keeping score of mental age independent of physical age, then your mental clock would not be reset by the reincarnation and you'd simply stop accruing bonuses once your mind reached venerable. You'd get no attribute benefit from multiple lives, because, mentally speaking, it's still the same one.

OTOH, a closer reading of the aging entry says that you can't be reduced to 0 in an attribute by aging alone, so my initial point is moot.

[Ravens_cry]

Because Reincarnate gives you a new, young adult body.
Since you are now physically younger, you should lose the ageing penalties to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. However, since you are still the same mentally, you should retain the bonuses to your mental scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma).

Exactly, it explicitly says your mental scores stay the same and it also explicitly says you get a young adult body. Just watch out for people wishing you had your old body back, you'll age faster than a Nazi in The Last Crusade.
The only other downside is it takes time, though I believe there is ways around that as well.

[Aidan305]

Most entertaining thing I've found is a way to get a spell level of -1. I've not seen anything horrendously broken though.

[Vemynal]

Ok so there are some teamwork feats that can reach insane damage output and a healing [Fire] trick.

Any feat tricks along the lines of DMM: Persist (power wise)

Or maybe close to that strength?

[Corlindale]

The feat Spell Perfection can do some pretty powerful things, but you can't get it before level 15. Related to that, it's a bit easier to optimize save DCs in PF compared to 3.5.

Ex. an Arcane bloodline sorceror could conceivably have a save DC for his favourite spell which is +11 points higher than the norm, or a Spellslinger wizard could have +13 (both involve stacking Spell Focus and Elemental focus + Greater, and spell perfection), making it very, very difficult for enemies to make their save (if spell resistance is a concern you can get a total of +10 to spell penetration checks with Spell Penetration(+ Greater) and being an elf).
Combined with the Dazing Spell metamagic feat you have a near-guaranteed lockdown against large groups of enemies.
Again, these don't really come online until level 15 and require significant feat investment, so it's still not as brokenly good as most of the strong 3.5 cheese.

While PF radically altered the majority of the broken polymorph spells, Polymorph Any Object was not nerfed as heavily as the others. I suspect something could be done with that, though I haven't studied it closely myself.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Candle of Invocation is still a way underpriced three wishes. Besides, you could just wish that you could cast Planar Binding as an SLA 1/day (not on the safe list, but it doesn't SEEM overpowered) and then go around binding efreeti.

[Baron Malkar]

Wound weal from the adventures armory plus any bleed efect is so devistating that it has been banned from my games.

[kardar233]

Candle of Invocation is still a way underpriced three wishes. Besides, you could just wish that you could cast Planar Binding as an SLA 1/day (not on the safe list, but it doesn't SEEM overpowered) and then go around binding efreeti.

Shouldn't you be able to Wish for Planar Binding as your third wish, getting you another set of three?

[jmelesky]

I forget the module, but the feat's text is roughly this:

Ah, Glorious Heat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/glorious-heat):



Prerequisites: Ability to cast divine spells, caster level 5th.

Benefit: When you cast a divine spell with the [fire] descriptor, choose a single ally within 30 feet that you can see. That ally heals half your level in hit points, and gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of its next turn.

And the PFS ruling on it:



Glorious Heat grants a number of points of healing equal to the spell level, not the caster level (ie. flame strike grants 5 points, while spark grants 0)


Even without that errata, it doesn't seem particularly broken. I don't know anyone who'd want to spend combat spamming cantrips in order to heal their allies a max of 10 hp/rd. Mostly it saves cost on cure wands.

[Curious]

Even without that errata, it doesn't seem particularly broken. I don't know anyone who'd want to spend combat spamming cantrips in order to heal their allies a max of 10 hp/rd. Mostly it saves cost on cure wands.

It's not for in-combat healing, it's for out-of-combat healing. It extends your HP resources massively, without costing you money on wands.

[jmelesky]

It's not for in-combat healing, it's for out-of-combat healing. It extends your HP resources massively, without costing you money on wands.

Yeah, that's my point. There are already a huge number of class resources for healing in PF. And then Wands of Cure Light are really cheap when it comes down to it (and you still need one for yourself, or should you go down). So the feat seems powerful but only very very slightly broken.

And certainly nowhere near Pun-pun.

[Mystify]

Yeah, that's my point. There are already a huge number of class resources for healing in PF. And then Wands of Cure Light are really cheap when it comes down to it (and you still need one for yourself, or should you go down). So the feat seems powerful but only very very slightly broken.

And certainly nowhere near Pun-pun.

Nowhere near pun-pun, but trivially breaking the healing economy is nothing to sneeze at. Fast healing 1 is an amazing trait for a character because it removes them from the healing economy. This ability would do that for the entire party.

[Big Fau]

Yeah, that's my point. There are already a huge number of class resources for healing in PF. And then Wands of Cure Light are really cheap when it comes down to it (and you still need one for yourself, or should you go down). So the feat seems powerful but only very very slightly broken.

And certainly nowhere near Pun-pun.

The point is the Devs at Paizo have been doing everything in their power to remove at-will healing from the system as a whole because they believe it breaks the game.

[Vemynal]

Damn, it looks like I may have to concede this point to my friend! haha


How about this; my issue with pathfinder was never its inability to break the game but the fact that the game seems less customizable due to its less books that are out.

As someone mentioned before; Horizon Tripper hardly breaks the game considering how long the class takes to get up and running.


So new question! What are some fun and odd builds with pathfinder?
I know I checked out Horizon Tripper for PF and it doesn't really work anymore =/. What are some others?

Edit: Let's aim for a minimum of tier 3 capabilities

[sreservoir]

The point is the Devs at Paizo have been doing everything in their power to remove at-will healing from the system as a whole because they believe it breaks the game.

so the point is that the devs at paizo still don't understand the game they're working on, despite that the community has been writing treatises on it for years.

yeah.

[YPU]

How about this; my issue with pathfinder was never its inability to break the game but the fact that the game seems less customizable due to its less books that are out.

Honestly? I think PF by this point has more options then 3.5 due to all the archetypes and the like that are out there.

[sreservoir]

Honestly? I think PF by this point has more options then 3.5 due to all the archetypes and the like that are out there.

compared to 3.5? decidedly not; the options are ... more available, perhaps. but 3.5 has a significantly greater ability mix and match, and distinct mechanics, and

[Mystify]

compared to 3.5? decidedly not; the options are ... more available, perhaps. but 3.5 has a significantly greater ability mix and match
Only because the classes are so bland that jumping out of them at first opportunity works really well. Pathfinder doesn't limit you from doing it, it just gives you enough that staying in one class is just as appealing as leaving. And on top of that, the classes themselves are more customizable. What do you choose for a 3.5 barbarian? Nothing. Maybe a couple of alternative class features. A pathfinder barbarian? You have tons of rage powers to pick from, and archetypes to utilize. A 3.5 ranger? Same deal, only you get to pick one of 2 weapon styles. Pathfinder, you have a ton of options.You can mix and match, but there is enough present that it doesn't turn into a need, like it does in 3.5

[sreservoir]

Only because the classes are so bland that jumping out of them at first opportunity works really well. Pathfinder doesn't limit you from doing it, it just gives you enough that staying in one class is just as appealing as leaving. And on top of that, the classes themselves are more customizable. What do you choose for a 3.5 barbarian? Nothing. Maybe a couple of alternative class features. A pathfinder barbarian? You have tons of rage powers to pick from, and archetypes to utilize. A 3.5 ranger? Same deal, only you get to pick one of 2 weapon styles. Pathfinder, you have a ton of options.You can mix and match, but there is enough present that it doesn't turn into a need, like it does in 3.5

sure, you get incentive to stay around a bit longer, but you also ... just don't have much that is actually appealing, let alone more appealing that just staying in one class.

besides, in pathfinder, it's somewhat easier to fall into the trap of "I'll hold out on filling my concept now, because that feature later will be worth getting earlier."

sticking with a single class being more viable is somewhat nice, sure. would be nice to also have useful, appealing alternatives.

[Mystify]

sure, you get incentive to stay around a bit longer, but you also ... just don't have much that is actually appealing, let alone more appealing that just staying in one class.

besides, in pathfinder, it's somewhat easier to fall into the trap of "I'll hold out on filling my concept now, because that feature later will be worth getting earlier."

sticking with a single class being more viable is somewhat nice, sure. would be nice to also have useful, appealing alternatives.
So... your argument is that things are too good, and you aren't willing to give them up? Thats the opposite of a problem. The problem is when you have no reason to stick around.

[NinjaStylerobot]

Its usualy a better idea to get to level 20 in one class OR 5 Levels in one class 5 Levels in teh other and then prestigie class 10. Or Class 10 Prestigie class 10.

But you can still do some nifty stuff. You can be a Fighter 17, Rouge 3 to get sneak attack and heavy armor.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I just want to mention that even if Wish cannot produce a Candle of Invocation, it can still mimic planar binding, even if you for some unfanthomable reason banned Conjuration, so instead of asking for a CoI you ask for another Efreeti. Therefore the wish loop is still pretty viable.

[Mystify]

I just want to mention that even if Wish cannot produce a Candle of Invocation, it can still mimic planar binding, even if you for some unfanthomable reason banned Conjuration, so instead of asking for a CoI you ask for another Efreeti. Therefore the wish loop is still pretty viable.

Whatever happened to summoned/bound creatures never using abilities with an xp cost?

[sreservoir]

So... your argument is that things are too good, and you aren't willing to give them up? Thats the opposite of a problem. The problem is when you have no reason to stick around.

... no, not really; pathfinder sticks in a bunch of stuff that would be useful except that they come too late, but in general, it's less that things are good than that you tend to have to put significant investment into anything in before you get the good parts.

some might say that's a good thing. I'd really prefer having usable things at every step than getting something amazing at the end.

[sreservoir]

Whatever happened to summoned/bound creatures never using abilities with an xp cost?

it's not using an ability with an xp cost.

[Mystify]

... no, not really; pathfinder sticks in a bunch of stuff that would be useful except that they come too late, but in general, it's less that things are good than that you tend to have to put significant investment into anything in before you get the good parts.

some might say that's a good thing. I'd really prefer having usable things at every step than getting something amazing at the end.
Are we looking at the same classes? Everything I've looked at gives useful things all the way through, the classes just get more powerful abilities as they progress, which is a good thing. Front loading classes just encourages dipping, and is a poor design. It shouldn't be an automatic choice to leave your class.

[mregecko]

One of my favorite Pathfinder breakings (nowhere near Pun-Pun level, but pretty darn broken):

Multimorph
Your studies in transmogrification have increased your control over shapechanging spells.

Prerequisite: You must be at least a 5th-level Wizard to select this discovery.

Benefit: When you cast a spell of the polymorph subschool on yourself, you may expend 1 minute of the spell’s duration as a standard action to assume another form allowed by the spell. You can do this as often as you like, subject to the duration of the spell. This is a supernatural ability.

+ Polymorph any Object with a permanent duration. The duration of spells are set when they are cast, so even if you went with "I PaO into an elf from a Human", which gives you a permanent duration, from then on out you can subtract 1 minute from "permanent" to change into anything (Dragon, Elemental, rock, whatever). It's a pretty awesome ability, and pretty easily broken.

Even IF your DM doesn't allow the "permanent" option to stick, it's pretty easy to work within a 1-week duration parameter, which means that -1 minute is essentially... nothing.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Planar Binding and Simulacrum cost GP instead of XP. The Big 9ths went basically unchanged:
- Gate was nerfed a little, but not enough to stop it from wrecking things
- Astral Projection tacked on a projection death tax of 2 negative levels, something you can get rid of with two castings of Restoration from a friendly cleric.
- Time Stop was unchanged.
- Foresight was unchanged.
- Wish can't give you items any more, but it can still do a lot of crazy things. Just Gate/Simulacrum a creature who has a wish SLA and go nuts.

PF didn't remove the shenanigans. Sure, they nerfed polymorph and a bunch of low level stuff, and they didn't reprint stuff like Incantatrix, DMM, Dweomerkeeper, Illithid Savant, Tainted Scholar, Beholder Mage and the like, but they kept most of the broken Core stuff. That's enough to break a game, at least after a few level ups.

More importantly IMO, by taking away 3.5 content you make it much harder for melees to have nice things:
- In PF if you want to full attack while moving you generally have to wait until at least level 10 (when a Barbarian finally gets pounce). Fighters have to wait until friggin' level 20. In 3.5 there are many ways to do this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358), many of which you can enjoy at level 1.
- Power attack more of a "nice bonus" than a career-defining ability.
- Rangers and Paladins got some very nice spells in SpC which made them viable even without PF's superior chassis.

Basically, there are fewer ways to break PF and fewer ways to customize PF mostly because there's less content. This isn't necessarily a dig on Paizo - they haven't had 3.5's run time, and it seems to me like they spend more time editing their books than WotC did (that is to say, some time at all). How about 3.P? It's about as breakable as 3.5 but has more customization potential than either edition alone.

[Suddo]

Doesn't that stupid Candle of Invocation still exist so you can summon Gjinn to get wishes to get Candles to get wishes. This is how pun-pun works except he used some random snake thing to give him the ability to give himself and his familiar infinite power.

So basically you'll have an army of Gjinns for like 8k gold (I think that's how much the candles cost).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Are we looking at the same classes? Everything I've looked at gives useful things all the way through, the classes just get more powerful abilities as they progress, which is a good thing. Front loading classes just encourages dipping, and is a poor design. It shouldn't be an automatic choice to leave your class.

Are we looking at the same classes? Mobile Fighter and Dawnflower Dervish are two of the best fighter archetypes. They both get the ability to move + full attack with no extra penalties at level 20. They should get it at level 6, level 11 would be okay, level 20? Too late.

[Mystify]

Are we looking at the same classes? Mobile Fighter and Dawnflower Dervish are two of the best fighter archetypes. They both get the ability to move + full attack with no extra penalties at level 20. They should get it at level 6, level 11 would be okay, level 20? Too late.

So you are looking at capstone abilities, and whining that you can't get all that awesome at a low level? You say they are the best archetypes, yet they need their 20th level ability at level 6? How does that make it the best archetype?

Rouges, barbarians, paladins, summoners, alchemists, as the classes I have paid more attention to, are getting awesome abilities all throughout their career.

[PinkysBrain]

Mobile/Dervish fighter are pretty much the only pure melee fighter which make any kind of sense for 11+ ... everything else is hugely worse.

There is one way to get pounce early in PF BTW. Dip 1 level of synthesist ... that class is basically the artificer of PF. Of course why would you dilute a perfectly good summoner build with fighter levels?

[Chronos]

Wait, doesn't Pathfinder have zero-level spells at will? Did they remove Cure Minor Wounds?

[Mystify]

Mobile/Dervish fighter are pretty much the only pure melee fighter which make any kind of sense for 11+ ... everything else is hugely worse.

There is one way to get pounce early in PF BTW. Dip 1 level of synthesist ... that class is basically the artificer of PF. Of course why would you dilute a perfectly good summoner build with fighter levels?

My group had several pure melee fighters, and they worked out just fine...

[Mystify]

Wait, doesn't Pathfinder have zero-level spells at will? Did they remove Cure Minor Wounds?

They replaced it with stabilize. Instead of healing 1 hp, you stabilize a dying creature automatically. Which, lets face it, is what a 1hp heal was for anyways.

[PinkysBrain]

My group had several pure melee fighters, and they worked out just fine...
3e monks can work out fine, that doesn't mean they aren't comparatively much less effective than a well build character.

[Mystify]

3e monks can work out fine, that doesn't mean they aren't comparatively much less effective than a well build character.

That also doesn't mean that a mobile fighter is the only sensible way to do martial over level 11

[Hiro Protagonest]

So you are looking at capstone abilities, and whining that you can't get all that awesome at a low level? You say they are the best archetypes, yet they need their 20th level ability at level 6? How does that make it the best archetype?
The four best fighter archetypes are those two plus Tactician and Unbreakable.

Unbreakable because almost all (if not all) fear effects are also mind-affecting.

Tactician because it replaces one bonus feat (you have more than enough) with much better skills, add a few feats to your bonus feat list, and the bonus to initiative is better than Bravery, oh, and you have a use for those swift actions starting at 15th level.

Dervish because they get a small boost to AC at the time it's still relevant, Desert Stride used to be good (used to be, because now there's Dragon Style, which you can get four levels earlier and does more), andLightning Strike is like TWF, with a falchion (or any two-handed weapon, falchion's just for the desert dervish flavor). Also, it seems they don't have the move + full attack, only Rapid Strike. :smallconfused:

Mobile Fighter is good because you can get a bonus to attack and damage by 5 ft stepping, Rapid Attack is okay for TWFers or guys with Haste or a speed weapon (it says you take out the attack at your highest BAB, it says nothing about all attacks at your highest BAB), Fleet Footed is pretty good since you'll probably put ranks in acrobatics anyway so you can get Dragon Style, and then there's the capstone. Unfortunately, the capstone is too late, won't see much use.

And another point for the Dervish and Mobile Fighter: Who DOESN'T want to be the Straw Hat Samurai? :smalltongue:

Rouges, barbarians, paladins, summoners, alchemists, as the classes I have paid more attention to, are getting awesome abilities all throughout their career.

What book is rouge in? And why would you base a class around make-up?

Anyway, there are quite a bit of good rogue talents. It's not exactly a melee class though, its primary role is skillmonkey. Barbarian... from what I've seen, the rage powers are pretty lackluster unless you get a whole chain, and you probably don't need more than two chains. Summoners and alchemists... aren't melee. They can be melee, but they're melee in the same way a 3.5 cleric of Heironeous with DMM: Persistent Divine Power is melee.

[Crasical]

Doesn't that stupid Candle of Invocation still exist so you can summon Gjinn to get wishes to get Candles to get wishes. This is how pun-pun works except he used some random snake thing to give him the ability to give himself and his familiar infinite power.

So basically you'll have an army of Gjinns for like 8k gold (I think that's how much the candles cost).

You can't wish for items anymore. So you can't wish for another candle for more wishes.


I just want to mention that even if Wish cannot produce a Candle of Invocation, it can still mimic planar binding, even if you for some unfanthomable reason banned Conjuration, so instead of asking for a CoI you ask for another Efreeti. Therefore the wish loop is still pretty viable.

Efreeti don't grant wishes, Djinn and Shaitan do. And you can candle of Invocation, get a Djinn, get two wishes, get him to use Wish to mimic a lower level spell (Planar Binding) and summon another Djinn. From the text of Planar Binding: "Each creature gets a saving throw, makes an independent attempt to escape, and must be individually persuaded to aid you."

So it can just thumb it's nose at you and refuse to grant you more wishes.

[Curious]

-Snip-

The sad thing is that even the best fighter archetypes, Mobile and Dawnflower Dervish, are now completely replaced by a second level spell. Accelerate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/effect-words/accelerate). Really, any melee character who nows what they are doing is grabbing a wand or ring of Accelerate as soon as they can, and saving their class features for other things.

Oh, also, you can make Rogues into main melee fighters, but it requires a fairly specific build that falls apart against enemies immune to mind-affecting effects.

[Mystify]

Anyway, there are quite a bit of good rogue talents. It's not exactly a melee class though, its primary role is skillmonkey. Barbarian... from what I've seen, the rage powers are pretty lackluster unless you get a whole chain, and you probably don't need more than two chains. Summoners and alchemists... aren't melee. They can be melee, but they're melee in the same way a 3.5 cleric of Heironeous with DMM: Persistent Divine Power is melee.
Who said they were melee? I said they offered worthwhile bonuses at all levels. And summoners are melee by proxy. Don't tell me the huge summon with 7 natural weapons and an amazing strength is not a melee character.You can do other builds, but they are the atypical ones, not the melee eidilon.

[PinkysBrain]

That also doesn't mean that a mobile fighter is the only sensible way to do martial over level 11
The only sensible way to do a pure melee fighter, although a dervish is fine too.

Accelerate is nice, but it's an optional system ... not PFS kosher either.

[Hiro Protagonest]

So it can just thumb it's nose at you and refuse to grant you more wishes.

Keep a bunch of them there for, oh, two months.

Or make them listen to Celine Dion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html).

Also, efreeti are still the wish guys. Only certain djinni (called noble djinn) can use wish. Did you read their entries?

[Urpriest]

Efreeti don't grant wishes, Djinn and Shaitan do. And you can candle of Invocation, get a Djinn, get two wishes, get him to use Wish to mimic a lower level spell (Planar Binding) and summon another Djinn. From the text of Planar Binding: "Each creature gets a saving throw, makes an independent attempt to escape, and must be individually persuaded to aid you."

So it can just thumb it's nose at you and refuse to grant you more wishes.

There's probably a way to use your other Wish to make sure it fails the saving throw/attempt to escape/persuasion minigame, though. Would take some inventiveness, but you'd still have a net one Wish per time through the loop.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Accelerate is nice, but it's an optional system ... not PFS kosher either.

PFS uses heavy-handed attempts to fix what shouldn't been problems in the first place, and they aren't official Pathfinder AFAIK. Accelerate is about as RAW in PF as Whirling Frenzy is in 3.5.

[Mystify]

The only sensible way to do a pure melee fighter, although a dervish is fine too.
Lets look at mobile fighter vs. two weapon fighter
They get bonuses to attack and damage when they move.
The two weapon fighter gets the bonuses when they full round


at level 9, a two weapon fighter gets both primary and secondary attacks on a standard. At 11th, their accuracy penalty for dual weilding lessens.

At level 11, a mobile fighter gets their 2nd and 3rd attack when they move.
Two weapon fighter has the same number of attacks on a move, but they are much more accurate.

The two weapon warrior goes on to take both attacks on a attack op, eliminate the dual weilding penalties, get free combat manuever checks, and eventually get to make attack ops on everyone who attacks them after a full round.

mobile fighter takes all the way to 20th to get their full round after a move.

So, until 20th level, the two weapon fighter is getting just as many attacks, at a higher accuracy, as the mobile fighter. They also get a larger benefit when they do get their full round. Combine it with abilities to lock down your opponent or move with them, and its not hard to get those full rounds.

I really don't believe you when you say that it is the only viable way to make a fighter after 11th level.

[Jagu]

Basically Candle of Invocation hijinks.
Candle something that can cast Wish 3 times. Make one wish PaO on yourself (Into whatever you want to be) another wish for say, Wall of Mithral (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/super-genius-games---3rd-party-spells/wall-of-mithral) and the final wish you can either go for more planar binding or end your loop with a Fabricate. Use proceeds from selling your collection of Mithral Full plate to pay the Noble Janni or whatever the futz you summoned, then buy up whatever weapons or items you want.

It's not quite Pun-Pun, but you can still break the economy and be a dragon around lv 5.

[Crasical]

There's probably a way to use your other Wish to make sure it fails the saving throw/attempt to escape/persuasion minigame, though. Would take some inventiveness, but you'd still have a net one Wish per time through the loop.

I'm not so convinced. Since you can't summon items with Wish, your only good uses to make sure it fails the minigame are the 'force a (single) reroll' and 'mimic another wizard spell' uses... I'll take a look, but I don't think there's a single spell that will bypass all of that.

EDIT:



Basically Candle of Invocation hijinks.
Candle something that can cast Wish 3 times. Make one wish PaO on yourself (Into whatever you want to be) another wish for say, Wall of Mithral (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/super-genius-games---3rd-party-spells/wall-of-mithral) and the final wish you can either go for more planar binding or end your loop with a Fabricate. Use proceeds from selling your collection of Mithral Full plate to pay the Noble Janni or whatever the futz you summoned, then buy up whatever weapons or items you want.
It's not quite Pun-Pun, but you can still break the economy and be a dragon around lv 5.
" Mithral created by this spell is not suitable for use in the creation of other objects and cannot be sold."

[PinkysBrain]

At level 11, a mobile fighter gets their 2nd and 3rd attack when they move.
At level 11 haste is a safe assumption ... the mobile fighter being THF on the other hand, not so much.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Lets look at mobile fighter vs. two weapon fighter
They get bonuses to attack and damage when they move.
The two weapon fighter gets the bonuses when they full round


at level 9, a two weapon fighter gets both primary and secondary attacks on a standard. At 11th, their accuracy penalty for dual weilding lessens.

At level 11, a mobile fighter gets their 2nd and 3rd attack when they move.
Two weapon fighter has the same number of attacks on a move, but they are much more accurate.

The two weapon warrior goes on to take both attacks on a attack op, eliminate the dual weilding penalties, get free combat manuever checks, and eventually get to make attack ops on everyone who attacks them after a full round.

mobile fighter takes all the way to 20th to get their full round after a move.

So, until 20th level, the two weapon fighter is getting just as many attacks, at a higher accuracy, as the mobile fighter. They also get a larger benefit when they do get their full round. Combine it with abilities to lock down your opponent or move with them, and its not hard to get those full rounds.

I really don't believe you when you say that it is the only viable way to make a fighter after 11th level.

Mobile Fighter is dealing nearly double, if not double, the damage of the Two Weapon Fighter, because he can use all his attacks with a two-handed weapon. The second attack for the Two Weapon Fighter is just bringing him up to the level of the Mobile Fighter.

[Mystify]

Mobile Fighter is dealing nearly double, if not double, the damage of the Two Weapon Fighter, because he can use all his attacks with a two-handed weapon. The second attack for the Two Weapon Fighter is just bringing him up to the level of the Mobile Fighter.
On the first round. After that, it is generally easy to get your full rounds. The two weapon fighter can get plenty of damage output, esp. if the party is doing any buffing. For instance, a paladin granting everyone smite. Its also easy to get full strength on both, and you can use pirhanna strike to get power attack damage. What is the mobile fighter doing to hit that much harder?

There are plenty of ways to do melee combat at high levels. If you think otherwise you are not utilizing the characters properly.

[Chained Birds]

Wound weal from the adventures armory plus any bleed efect is so devistating that it has been banned from my games.

Wound Weal? Not familiar with it at all.

[jmelesky]

Wound Weal? Not familiar with it at all.

Here you go (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services#TOC-Woundweal).

[Chained Birds]

Here you go (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services#TOC-Woundweal).

Thanks, it was under herbs so I was a little lost.

[Hiro Protagonest]

On the first round. After that, it is generally easy to get your full rounds. The two weapon fighter can get plenty of damage output, esp. if the party is doing any buffing. For instance, a paladin granting everyone smite. Its also easy to get full strength on both, and you can use pirhanna strike to get power attack damage. What is the mobile fighter doing to hit that much harder?

There are plenty of ways to do melee combat at high levels. If you think otherwise you are not utilizing the characters properly.

I said he was using a two-handed weapon, right? Two shortswords for 1d6+4 and 1d6+2 compared to one greatsword for 2d6+6. The bonus damage from Twin Strike and things like Weapon Spec will be applied twice as much as for the Mobile Fighter, but he gets better Power Attack to make up for that.

[Mystify]

I said he was using a two-handed weapon, right? Two shortswords for 1d6+4 and 1d6+2 compared to one greatsword for 2d6+6. The bonus damage from Twin Strike and things like Weapon Spec will be applied twice as much as for the Mobile Fighter, but he gets better Power Attack to make up for that.

you get a 3/1 return on a two handed weapon.
pirhanna strike gives you a 2/1 on your first attack, and a 1/1 on the second.

Ergo, the power attack is not a damage advantage. It doesn't multiple with two weapon fighting, but you get the same increase.

[Doc Roc]

PSssssh. Claiming that's abuse is like claiming an 8th level spell on a 17th level character is abuse. Seriously, the number of feats you have to take and the high level of the spell forces it to be a late, late, late-game use.

Only gimmick I know requires use of some Adventure Module feats. (Divine Spark).

I have to nearly agree with the friend: other than Wizards (which are still uber-powered) and the standard dnd balance issues, PF is reaaaaaaaally close to unbreakability. I'd say it's about as unbreakable as ToB.

This is funny because ToB is the source for an infinite loop, an arbitrary damage hack, and bum-fight healing. That's just off the top of my head, and ToB is one of the best balanced books in either the 3.5 or 3.P lines.

[Hiro Protagonest]

This is funny because ToB is the source for an infinite loop, an arbitrary damage hack, and bum-fight healing. That's just off the top of my head, and ToB is one of the best balanced books in either the 3.5 or 3.P lines.

And Iron Heart Surge.

[kardar233]

This is funny because ToB is the source for an infinite loop, an arbitrary damage hack, and bum-fight healing. That's just off the top of my head, and ToB is one of the best balanced books in either the 3.5 or 3.P lines.

Arbitrary damage is the d2 Crusader, tons of healing is general Devoted Spirit, where's the infinite loop come from?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Arbitrary damage is the d2 Crusader, tons of healing is general Devoted Spirit, where's the infinite loop come from?

Idiot Crusader with White Raven Tactics?

[Urpriest]

Arbitrary damage is the d2 Crusader, tons of healing is general Devoted Spirit, where's the infinite loop come from?

White Raven Tactics with hijinks, most likely.

[sonofzeal]

Honestly? I think PF by this point has more options then 3.5 due to all the archetypes and the like that are out there.
I did the math once. Using even a fairly generous set of assumptions, 3.5 has over a hundred times more options than PF.

Or let's put it this way...

- 3.5 has massively more LA+0 races

- 3.5 has massively more base classes

- 3.5 has as many Variants and Racial Subs as PF has archetypes

- 3.5 has massively more Prestige Classes

- 3.5 has massively more feats

What other common metric for "options" do you propose?

[Big Fau]

Arbitrary damage is the d2 Crusader, tons of healing is general Devoted Spirit, where's the infinite loop come from?

Infinite actions can be done with the Idiot Crusader, which can also deal infinite damage due to unlimited strikes/round.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Infinite actions can be done with the Idiot Crusader, which can also deal infinite damage due to unlimited strikes/round.

...I thought the Idiot Crusader just had all maneuvers readied at all times.

Or do you mean in tandem with the infinite actions?

[Starbuck_II]

Barbarian... from what I've seen, the rage powers are pretty lackluster unless you get a whole chain, and you probably don't need more than two chains.


You might want to reread Barbarian. You can take extra rage power if you need more.

Rage powers give:
1) Superstitious: +7 saves vs spells/supernaturals
2) Obviously Beast chain for Pounce.
3) Spell Sunder: lets them sunder any spell effect with a Combat maneuver check (1/rage, but you can rage cycle [with Oracle lame or Tireles Rage]).
4) Witchhunter means +6 hit/dam vs anything with spells/spell-likes
5) Reckless Abandon to boost hit by lowering AC: up to +6 hit for -6 AC
6) close to or equal to DR 20/- (increased DR [+3 DR] and Dragon Totem[adds +6 DR] together and class DR up to 5 but one Archetype boost class DR to 10)
7) Crippling Blow: deal 5 Str or Dex damage a turn.
8) Come and Get Me: Robilar's gambit as a rage power
9) Nice AC due to NA gained (+8 NA) from Rage powers

[Big Fau]

...I thought the Idiot Crusader just had all maneuvers readied at all times.

Or do you mean in tandem with the infinite actions?

That's the thing: it has all maneuvers at all times, including WRT. WRT himself, the end result is infinite actions for infinite strikes.

[Curious]

That's the thing: it has all maneuvers at all times, including WRT. WRT himself, the end result is infinite actions for infinite strikes.

. . . What happens when you reach negative initiative values?

[Mystify]

. . . What happens when you reach negative initiative values?

What would be special about negative initiative?

[Curious]

What would be special about negative initiative?

Surprisingly, nothing at all. I think the text of WRT states you go immediately anyways, so I suppose it has no effect on you at all. Huh.

[Mystify]

Surprisingly, nothing at all. I think the text of WRT states you go immediately anyways, so I suppose it has no effect on you at all. Huh.

Thats what I thought.

[SamBurke]

Damn, it looks like I may have to concede this point to my friend! haha


How about this; my issue with pathfinder was never its inability to break the game but the fact that the game seems less customizable due to its less books that are out.


I just want to hear you say that one more time.

PF is definitely a more customizable system: they've designed it to be so. A party of all Bards looks much different in PF, and a party of all Alchemists does too. With Archetypes (of which there are literally hundreds for just a few classes), you have a ton of options.

Sure, they have fewer books out: but let them do their work, and they'll be a ton of choices.

[sonofzeal]

I just want to hear you say that one more time.

PF is definitely a more customizable system: they've designed it to be so. A party of all Bards looks much different in PF, and a party of all Alchemists does too. With Archetypes (of which there are literally hundreds for just a few classes), you have a ton of options.

Sure, they have fewer books out: but let them do their work, and they'll be a ton of choices.
AHEM (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12612026&postcount=76).

Also, apparently "literally hundreds" now means "about 75". :smalltongue:

[Jeraa]

AHEM (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12612026&postcount=76).

Also, apparently "literally hundreds" now means "about 75". :smalltongue:

Try closer to 214 archetypes (assuming I didn't miss any, and not counting any in 3rd party books or Golarian-specific material). Plus 20 base classes. Thats not counting the other options like additional rogue traits, rage powers, or sorcerer bloodlines. That just archetypes. Even if you count the archetypes that are similiar as only 1 (like the various animal shaman archetypes), its still way more then "about 75".

The Advanced Players Guide has 83 archetypes just by itself.

If you only look at base classes (and variants of them) Pathfinder has far more options. But 3.5 has many, many more prestige classes. There are over 350 prestige classes in official 3.5 books, not counting setting specific ones.

[sonofzeal]

Try closer to 214 archetypes (assuming I didn't miss any, and not counting any in 3rd party books or Golarian-specific material). Plus 20 base classes. Thats not counting the other options like additional rogue traits, rage powers, or sorcerer bloodlines. That just archetypes. Even if you count the archetypes that are similiar as only 1 (like the various animal shaman archetypes), its still way more then "about 75".

The Advanced Players Guide has 83 archetypes just by itself.

If you only look at base classes (and variants of them) Pathfinder has far more options. But 3.5 has many, many more prestige classes. There are over 350 prestige classes in official 3.5 books, not counting setting specific ones.
Sorry, you're right. Don't know where I got that figure from, I'll go up and strike it.


Still, I don't think my conclusion was flawed.

PATHFINDER
20 Races
19 Classes
272 Archetypes
46 Prestige Classes
390 Feats

3.5
172 Races
72 Classes
253 Variants
498 PrCs
3304 Feats

[Hiro Protagonest]

Sorry, you're right. Don't know where I got that figure from, I'll go up and strike it.


Still, I don't think my conclusion was flawed.

PATHFINDER
20 Races
19 Classes
272 Archetypes
46 Prestige Classes

3.5
172 Races
72 Classes
253 Variants
498 PrCs

It doesn't have massively more variants and racial subs though...

Everything else is correct.

[navar100]

So... your argument is that things are too good, and you aren't willing to give them up? Thats the opposite of a problem. The problem is when you have no reason to stick around.

I think it was Tempest Stormwind who once wrote:

"Taste the indecision? That's the balance, right there."

[sonofzeal]

It doesn't have massively more variants and racial subs though...

Everything else is correct.
I never said it did.


- 3.5 has as many Variants and Racial Subs as PF has archetypes

But it's got almost 10x as many races, 4x as many classes, 10x as many PrCs, and 10x as many feats. The original claim was that PF has more options; can we agree that's been thoroughly disproven?

[Mystify]

I think it was Tempest Stormwind who once wrote:

"Taste the indecision? That's the balance, right there."

Wise words. In a balanced system, both options are appealing, and there is no clear "correct" choice.

[navar100]

General comments to posts:

There is no XP cost in casting any spells in Pathfinder.

Pathfinder has less prestige classes not because of less books but due to archetypes being used as replacements for them. Several of them you would read and could say "Hey, that's a 3E prestige class". Indeed, one criticism of 3E prestige classes is that some would have been better as feat choices or alternative class features. That is what Pathfinder has done with archetypes.

[JadeVamp]

My first game was Pathfinder, and I enjoy it just for the fact that my players don't have to go through all of those classes and prestige classes to find out what they want to play.

That said, here are the actual numbers.

Pathfinder
19 Base/Core classes.
3 Alternate class options (Not different enough to be a full class, but not so close as to be an archetype)
Archetypes: Too many for me to count. Especially since I don't own the Advanced Players guide or the ultimate magic sourcebook. Here are numbers from ultimate Combat.
Alchemist: 2
Barbarian: 7
Bard: 3
Cavalier: 7
Cleric: 4
Druid: 4
Fighter:10
Gunsliner: 4
Inquisitor: 3
Magus: 4
Monk: 7
Paladin: 5 (One only for the antipaladin)
Ranger: 6
Rogue: 9
Wizard: 3
And many of these classes have other options and levelling paths that make them more customizable.

D&D 3.5
Now... I must admit, I don't know much about 3.5. I've never played, but I do understand there are TONS of classes... but how many of these are actually worth something? This thread has been focusing on the downpoints of Pathfinder, but D&D has plenty to talk about in that regard.

[Ravens_cry]

Wise words. In a balanced system, both options are appealing, and there is no clear "correct" choice.
From a mechanical standpoint, I challenge you to find any game, tabletop or video, that has choice where each choice is exactly as good as the next.
Even Valve, who spent years trying to get the small group of Team Fortress 2 classes balanced, a game with no levelling, little choice on weapons available, and they still had to patch and update the bojangles out of it once it hit the fans.
An RPG where you play more than static, identical, characters is going to have imbalances.

[sonofzeal]

From a mechanical standpoint, I challenge you to find any game, tabletop or video, that has choice where each choice is exactly as good as the next.
Even Valve, who spent years trying to get the small group of Team Fortress 2 classes balanced, a game with no levelling, little choice on weapons available, and they still had to patch and update the bojangles out of it once it hit the fans.
An RPG where you play more than static, identical, characters is going to have imbalances.
There's degrees, though.

For example, I love "Seiken Densetsu 3". At the beginning, you have to choose three out of six characters - a swordsman, a beastman, a ninja, a sorceress, a healer, and a valkyrie. Each has highly different playstyle and set of abilities. But... while I have my personal favorites, I've played with just about everyone and they're all useful. Heck, the one I've seen other people rag on as weak most often, the swordsman, is my personal favorite! He doesn't get much magic to speak of, nor does he get the rapid attacks of the beastman or ninja, but I've found the arc of his sword covers the corners better than any of the other characters. If you approach enemies from the diagonals, you can hit them without them being able to hit you back (only exception that I recall are dragons), meaning a cunning player can dominate fights through fast reactions and clever tactics. My "dream team" is using him as my active while CPU-controlled mages provide fire support.

Is the game perfectly balanced? No. Not all paths for each character are equally useful, and you can compare the different characters against each other too. But I've seen so many conflicting recommendations that I feel fairly safe holding it up as an example of relatively balanced gameplay. There's six characters, and every one of them has reasons to play them.

Except maybe the Ninja. He's probably my least favorite. But I've seen someone else praise him highly, so... meh.

[mikau013]

From a mechanical standpoint, I challenge you to find any game, tabletop or video, that has choice where each choice is exactly as good as the next.
Even Valve, who spent years trying to get the small group of Team Fortress 2 classes balanced, a game with no levelling, little choice on weapons available, and they still had to patch and update the bojangles out of it once it hit the fans.
An RPG where you play more than static, identical, characters is going to have imbalances.

Imbalances are fine, sometimes even fun. The problem is when some options actually make you worse or just don't do anything. For example the monk vow of poverty or the you no longer take ranged penalties with crossbow while lying prone feat (for those who don't know, you don't take any penalties while prone with a crossbow without the feat either)

[Ravens_cry]

Imbalances are fine, sometimes even fun. The problem is when some options actually make you worse or just don't do anything. For example the monk vow of poverty or the you no longer take ranged penalties with crossbow while lying prone feat (for those who don't know, you don't take any penalties while prone with a crossbow without the feat either)
If we are talking abut the this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-vows), a vow is supposed to be something that meaningfuly affects your character. If it doesn't, it's just a sheer bonus.
Is it worth it? That's for your character to decide.
Prone Shooter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/prone-shooter-combat) is somewhat an example of them not reading their own rules, but it does allow you to shoot prone with a firearm at all, which you couldn't before.
@sonofzeal:There is indeed degrees, and Pathfinder is balanced enough for me personally to have fun with every character class I have tried so far.
That is enough in my opinion.

[Urpriest]

On the Wish loop question, it would be better to use later Wishes to duplicate Planar Ally. Then you merely need an offering worth a sufficient amount, which if you've summoned a Noble Djinn is pretty straightforward since they can permanently create large piles of vegetable matter (expensive poisons for example). You may not even need that: the Djinn is the one casting Wish, so arguably he's the one who has to pay for the Planar Ally. In any case, you still manage two Wishes per loop.

[Mystify]

From a mechanical standpoint, I challenge you to find any game, tabletop or video, that has choice where each choice is exactly as good as the next.
Even Valve, who spent years trying to get the small group of Team Fortress 2 classes balanced, a game with no levelling, little choice on weapons available, and they still had to patch and update the bojangles out of it once it hit the fans.
An RPG where you play more than static, identical, characters is going to have imbalances.
Perfect balance may be unachievable in practice, but that doesn't mean you can't try to acheive it, or that you can't get close. D&D is annoyingly far from balanced, much farther than is actually reasonable.
D&D isn't even superficially balanced, either. The difference between a fighter and a wizard is vast, no matter how you cut it.
If you design your system with consistent, unbreakable assumptions, then you can use those as firm balance points. What is the chance to crit, how many attacks you can make in a round, the bounds on AC or damage, etc. You can create a metric for how useful a given ability, such as a feat, should be, and then stick to it. You can try to ensure that, level for level, various classes will be balanced against each other.
look at legand (www.ruleofcool.com). It may not be perfectly balanced, but it is pretty good. You can combine abilities, take feats, and most combinations of tracks are well-balanced. You may put together a combination of tracks that gives you an impressive damage output, but you would be sacrificing potent defenses to do so. They hard-wire in limitations, like your offenseive and defensive stat must be different, and they explicitly designed the system so that any 2 characters of the same level should be balanced, given equal levels of optimization. There will always be poor choices for a specific character in a system. Quicken metamagic is a horrible feat for a fighter. However, it is a useful feat for a wizard. If the system is balanced, the good choices for a character are close enough that there is no clear right choice. The remaining poor choices are good choices in other circumstances. It is possible to make a character with poor choices, and they end up weaker than a character that made good choices. That is not a symptom of imbalance, that just means the system has meaningful choices. However, if two characters put forth the same optimization effort, even if they start with different goals and classes, should end up balanced.

[PinkysBrain]

Its also easy to get full strength on both, and you can use pirhanna strike to get power attack damage.
You always PA with light off hand weapons in PF, you only use that feat if you can't meet the strength requirement of Power Attack.

[Mystify]

You always PA with light off hand weapons in PF, you only use that feat if you can't meet the strength requirement of Power Attack.
Either way, they can get the same net benefit from power attacking.

[Ravens_cry]

@Mystify on quoted post:
And yet. it's still can be fun. That shows, at least to me, that balance isn't an end all and be all. It's significant in a scientific sense, but it isn't an overarching, all encompassing goal. In some games, especially ones that are more explicitly PvP, it will be more important, but D&D 3.X and Pathfinder are designed as both a group activity and as, more or less PvE. And in a group, a Fighter can still contribute what they can. They can't do much else, mechanically, but they can still do that.

[JadeVamp]

It's true that wizards tend to be more powerful, especially in the late game. Still, Fighters and the like have their own niche. A party full of spellcasters tend not to last too long against... say... a giant antimagic field... or anything that gets close enough to hit them. It's partially the GM's role to add balance, whether by adding opponents that certain party members have trouble against or discouraging munchkins so the newer players can kill some enemies.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It's true that wizards tend to be more powerful, especially in the late game. Still, Fighters and the like have their own niche. A party full of spellcasters tend not to last too long against... say... a giant antimagic field... or anything that gets close enough to hit them. It's partially the GM's role to add balance, whether by adding opponents that certain party members have trouble against or discouraging munchkins so the newer players can kill some enemies.

Contingent Dimension Door can let you escape from anybody who somehow manages to get within range. Abrupt Jaunt at the lower levels. Mirror Image and Displacement let you have good defense against ranged attacks.

As for the AMF, run/fly out of range and then send in Orb spells or other instantaneous conjurations (the Planar Binding and Planar Ally lines are instantaneous as well, so a little bargaining beforehand can get you three meatshields with a couple of SLAs for the adventure).

Clerics can also easily do stuff in an AMF. They have planar ally, and can go into melee combat if need be while their sorc/wizard friend plays Mailman.

[Big Fau]

It's true that wizards tend to be more powerful, especially in the late game. Still, Fighters and the like have their own niche. A party full of spellcasters tend not to last too long against... say... a giant antimagic field... or anything that gets close enough to hit them. It's partially the GM's role to add balance, whether by adding opponents that certain party members have trouble against or discouraging munchkins so the newer players can kill some enemies.

Honestly the AMF thing has been debated to death and back, and the larger enemy threatening the caster in melee can be negated completely via Casting Defensively and using spells like Solid Fog or Dimension Door.

It isn't that a Wizard is more powerful, it's that the sheer amount of effort it takes to beat one well-played is incredible. The DM is better off banning the Big 6 entirely instead of having to jump through hoops to balance them out.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Honestly the AMF thing has been debated to death and back, and the larger enemy threatening the caster in melee can be negated completely via Casting Defensively and using spells like Solid Fog or Dimension Door.

It isn't that a Wizard is more powerful, it's that the sheer amount of effort it takes to beat one well-played is incredible. The DM is better off banning the Big 6 entirely instead of having to jump through hoops to balance them out.

Plus, AMFs also wreck mundanes. Your +3 keen falchion and +6 belt of giant strength? Don't work, and neither does your Cloak of Resistance or Ring of Evasion.

[Blisstake]

Honestly the AMF thing has been debated to death and back, and the larger enemy threatening the caster in melee can be negated completely via Casting Defensively and using spells like Solid Fog or Dimension Door.

It isn't that a Wizard is more powerful, it's that the sheer amount of effort it takes to beat one well-played is incredible. The DM is better off banning the Big 6 entirely instead of having to jump through hoops to balance them out.

Again, considering players aren't (well, shouldn't be) fighting eachother, that's not really the issue. The issue is whether or not the fighter can contribute to the group. And in my experiences, they do tend to stay relevant, even at higher levels, using their high damage output per turn to take cae of the enemies that the wizards can't deal with using a single spell (due to high saves, or immunities, or whatever). The fighter, ironically enough, owes most of its damage to the wizard in the form of buffs, but everyone in the group is perfectly fine with this, as they're working cooperatively, rather than solo or against eachother, and each member feels as if they are fulfilling an important role.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Again, considering players aren't (well, shouldn't be) fighting eachother, that's not really the issue. The issue is whether or not the fighter can contribute to the group. And in my experiences, they do tend to stay relevant, even at higher levels, using their high damage output per turn to take cae of the enemies that the wizards can't deal with using a single spell (due to high saves, or immunities, or whatever). The fighter, ironically enough, owes most of its damage to the wizard in the form of buffs, but everyone in the group is perfectly fine with this, as they're working cooperatively, rather than solo or against eachother, and each member feels as if they are fulfilling an important role.

Yes, but the cleric and warblade and crusader all do this better than the fighter. They don't need many buffs, or they can buff themselves.

DR is easy to handle with Mountain Hammer, or Foehammer and you get extra damage from it, and there are other maneuvers that just plain add to damage when you're facing brute types (and Emerald Razor can be easily seen as a damage adder). Bull's Strength + Haste is just icing compared to maneuvers.

Cleric can persist Air Walk and Divine Power, maybe Righteous Might or Haste if they have enough Turn attempts.

[JadeVamp]

All I'm saying is sometimes half of the fun in being a fighter is being able to bail out the "All-powerful" wizard in a situation where the enemy... say, dodged that higly destructive spell or has an abnormally high SR.

It is partially the GM's duty to make sure everyone is having a fun time... and it's not much fun if you don't get to kill anything.

[Hiro Protagonest]

All I'm saying is sometimes half of the fun in being a fighter is being able to bail out the "All-powerful" wizard in a situation where the enemy... say, dodged that higly destructive spell or has an abnormally high SR.

Tell me how he bails the wizard out without some DM fiat allowing him to tank successfully.

Tell me how he can't just cast another Orb spell after one misses.

Tell me how he can't just cast Solid Fog to catch the enemy then flee to fight another day. They should have two prepared for the rare cases where their touch attack spells miss.

Then, there's the fact that starting at 17th level, enemies aren't facing the wizard, but his Astral Projection, while he is actually hiding in some secret underground fortress with a few openings, all of which are only big enough to be entered by a creature of fine size.

And all the fighter's incompetence could've been avoided if he had just played a cleric, warblade, or crusader, able to actually handle a fight without his caster friend being a crutch.

[Big Fau]

All I'm saying is sometimes half of the fun in being a fighter is being able to bail out the "All-powerful" wizard in a situation where the enemy... say, dodged that higly destructive spell or has an abnormally high SR.

It is partially the GM's duty to make sure everyone is having a fun time... and it's not much fun if you don't get to kill anything.

The odds of the Wizard needing bail get lower the more skilled the player becomes. And you are missing the point.

Yes, it is possible to have fun while playing a Fighter. There's no point in denying this. The point is that fun is subjective. The Fighter's fun is entirely dependent on 2 things: Player skill and the DM's leniency. It is so heavily reliant on those two things that some people (myself included) do not think the class adds enjoyment to the game.

Why play a Fighter if the Warblade, Ranger, Barbarian, Paladin, or several other classes can do the exact same things while having more fun when they can't do those things?

[navar100]

Tell me how he bails the wizard out without some DM fiat allowing him to tank successfully.

Tell me how he can't just cast another Orb spell after one misses.

Tell me how he can't just cast Solid Fog to catch the enemy then flee to fight another day. They should have two prepared for the rare cases where their touch attack spells miss.

Then, there's the fact that starting at 17th level, enemies aren't facing the wizard, but his Astral Projection, while he is actually hiding in some secret underground fortress with a few openings, all of which are only big enough to be entered by a creature of fine size.

And all the fighter's incompetence could've been avoided if he had just played a cleric, warblade, or crusader, able to actually handle a fight without his caster friend being a crutch.

How do you know the wizard has Solid Fog? How do you know he has Contingent Dimension Door? That is your error. You are assuming the wizard always has any spell, any feat, any magic item ever published for any situation you care to think of. In actual play that is not the case. The wizard does not know every spell. He does not prepare every spell. He does not have every feat. He does not have every magic item. He sometimes does fail to beat spell resistance. Bad guys sometimes do make their saving throw.

[Hiro Protagonest]

How do you know the wizard has Solid Fog? How do you know he has Contingent Dimension Door? That is your error. You are assuming the wizard always has any spell, any feat, any magic item ever published for any situation you care to think of.Nope. I always assume he has Contingent Dimension Door or Abrupt Jaunt. It is a valuable defense mechanism and can be applied broadly. I also always assume Overland Flight, as it's a buff that always last at least nine hours and gives n excellent form of mobility.

In actual play that is not the case. The wizard does not know every spell.
Do you knowhow cheap it is to learn a new spell? He can have any spell in core worth learning that's not from a school he banned (enchantment, necromancy) and even a few from those with the Spell Versatility ACF.
He does not prepare every spell. He does not have every feat. He does not have every magic item. He sometimes does fail to beat spell resistance. Bad guys sometimes do make their saving throw.

I never assume more than the Empower, Maximize, and Arcane Thesis for an Orb spell, and probably Energy Substitution as well so he's not useless against enemies immune to an energy type. Or a Rod of Maximize.

He does sometimes fail his attack roll or the monster beats the saving throw. But that's why he has his defenses up. Solid Fog has no saving throw, no attack roll, and SR: No. A single casting of it can give him the time he needs to cast Teleport or even just use the run action. Having two prepared is an invaluable defense.

[Vemynal]

Going to try and bring this thread back on topic.

Does anyone know of any metamagic reducers in PF?

[Curious]

Going to try and bring this thread back on topic.

Does anyone know of any metamagic reducers in PF?

Magical Lineage. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage)
Spell Perfection. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection)
Universalist Wizard. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/universalist)

[sreservoir]

Going to try and bring this thread back on topic.

Does anyone know of any metamagic reducers in PF?

seeker magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/seeker-sorcerer).

[Kenneth]

I am going to make 2 points here

first: give Pathfidner 2 or 3 more years and you will undoubtedly see some pun-pun level of brokeness. its jt liek D&D started out with Pun-Pun at the very beginning.

second: of course D&D has a LOT more options, classes, races, skills, feats ect etc etc than pathfidner. D&D has HOW many 'official' settings again? while Pathfinder only has one so far.

[Blisstake]

Yes, but the cleric and warblade and crusader all do this better than the fighter. They don't need many buffs, or they can buff themselves.

DR is easy to handle with Mountain Hammer, or Foehammer and you get extra damage from it, and there are other maneuvers that just plain add to damage when you're facing brute types (and Emerald Razor can be easily seen as a damage adder). Bull's Strength + Haste is just icing compared to maneuvers.

Cleric can persist Air Walk and Divine Power, maybe Righteous Might or Haste if they have enough Turn attempts.

True, but I thought we were talking about PF here, not 3.5. The ToB classes don't exist, clerics can't persist, and fighters can actually dish out some pretty good damage without having to rely on things like ubercharging builds.

But like you said, their comparative strength depends on DM style. I don't have every single enemy wizard has things like contingency DD (most games don't even get to the point where a wizard would have that anyway). I present a variety of enemies, some where the fighter can excel (High SR or high save enemies), and some where the wizard can (enemies with bad saves, swarms of enemies, etc.)

Now if the wizard wanted to break the game, I'm sure it would be possible with enough effort. That's always been the case, and I don't think PF is meant for people who like to use those builds. In my experiences, however, it does improve the value of classes like fighter in a group, since they can perform their designated role without being completely outclassed by other classes.

So while I'm sure there are ways to break PF if you really want to, I think it's a definite improvement in terms of every class having a role. At least for the way I play, it has been. I realize that won't be the case with everyone.

-Kenneth

Pathfinder will only ever have one official setting. It's actually a pretty smart business plan.