Playing a solar angel (monster class?)

[DrewVolker]

I have toyed around with the idea of playing a solar angel in a local dnd game for some time now, and I might have the chance to play it in a upcoming game.
I think the best way to do it would be to make a monster class, but I'm a little wet behind the ears when it comes to making monster classes, I have done it once, but the groundwork was already laid out for me.

From my understanding a monster class is supposed to have as many levels as the ECL of the monster in question, well in the monster manual there is no level adjustment for the solar angel, so this is where I am not sure where to go.

How many levels should the Solar be spread out? I'm also considering taking away either the spell-like abilities, the casts spells as a cleric, or both, so that might lower the levels.

I've seen people say as high as 40 something, and one person who said they made a monster class for the solar that was 30 levels long.

Any help would be appreciated, thanks in advance.

[Circle of Life]

I can't help you with designing an actual solar monster class, but you might be able to get some inspiration as to a quality progression from Jarian's Solar Ascendant. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191088)

[DrewVolker]

I can't help you with designing an actual solar monster class, but you might be able to get some inspiration as to a quality progression from Jarian's Solar Ascendant. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191088)

I am actually considering using that class instead of going with a monster class, but I'd still like to at least get a solar angel monster class for either the future, or if I in the end want to go with a full solar angel for the character.

[Kobold-Bard]

There's the Daeva from the old GitP Monster Classes project (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9734048&postcount=1033). It comes with an Epic True Solar PrC too.

Not exactly what you're looking for, but not bad.

[DeAnno]

From my understanding a monster class is supposed to have as many levels as the ECL of the monster in question, well in the monster manual there is no level adjustment for the solar angel, so this is where I am not sure where to go.

Your problem here is a Solar has a CR of 23 and 22 HD, meaning it's ECL, if they printed Epic Monster ECL (they don't) would probably be more than 30. However, its CR is probably much more accurate than its ECL for determining its actual value, so some sort of homebrew 20-23 level monster class would probably be what you're looking for.

For comparison, a Solar has 20th level Cleric casting, but hasn't been able to take Cleric PRCs, so its PRC is essentially "locked in" to being a Solar. Obviously it's Tier 1 due to having a base of Cleric, and more specifically it will compare rather favorably to most T1/T2 characters at level 20 without highly optimized builds.

If you told me a bit more about your campaign's optimization level I could try to balance it one way or another, but this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9557.msg370926#msg370926) might be what you're looking for (23 level build, similar to Solar, no LA). I would put it at a Solid T2, appropriate for any mid-high OP game with competently built T1/T2 characters in it.

[DrewVolker]

Your problem here is a Solar has a CR of 23 and 22 HD, meaning it's ECL, if they printed Epic Monster ECL (they don't) would probably be more than 30. However, its CR is probably much more accurate than its ECL for determining its actual value, so some sort of homebrew 20-23 level monster class would probably be what you're looking for.

For comparison, a Solar has 20th level Cleric casting, but hasn't been able to take Cleric PRCs, so its PRC is essentially "locked in" to being a Solar. Obviously it's Tier 1 due to having a base of Cleric, and more specifically it will compare rather favorably to most T1/T2 characters at level 20 without highly optimized builds.

If you told me a bit more about your campaign's optimization level I could try to balance it one way or another, but this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9557.msg370926#msg370926) might be what you're looking for (23 level build, similar to Solar, no LA). I would put it at a Solid T2, appropriate for any mid-high OP game with competently built T1/T2 characters in it.

From my past experience with at least the DM (who is "playing" a npc character in the group) and one of the players I know will be in it, they are both fans of trying to build characters who are very powerful (I guess that is the best way I can put the amount of optimization within the game). I know they are both a fan of using pretty cheesy races and templates (ones with pretty low LA for what they give). That link you gave does look nice, and it will be one of the options I talk about with the DM, but since I now have told you more about the optimization level of the game, any further help would be appreciated. The more options the better.

[DeAnno]

In very high OP 3.5 games (basically everything short of stuff that makes the game unplayable), it has been my experience that a vanilla CR 23 Solar is frequently outclassed by level 17-18 characters. I actually have direct knowledge of this, as our Cleric managed to permanently enslave one with a Necrotic Cyst in such a game. It was mostly a sideshow and goofed around mainly using buffs, Heal, and Flashflood for a few levels before it got Disintegrated in a horrible accident.

Of course with Point Buy ability scores, feats, good spells, and most importantly PC gear, the Solar will gain back a lot of ground. One thing it does not have however, is Turn Undead attempts (or any way to get them with no PRC HD available), and at high levels of OP this is a significant disadvantage when comparing it to Clerics, and in my opinion even with PC management and resources it would not be overpowered in such a game. Since the base class I gave already has nice by level scaling to all its abilities I will base all my comments on that of things you might want to enhance.

Spellcasting: If your party is dominated by T1 casters choose one of these options instead of the spellcasting presented in the class:

If you prefer to cast spontaneously, use the Favored Soul Spells per day and Spells Known tables from Complete Divine. In addition, choose a Diety, and add all the spells in its Domains to your Spell List (but not your Spells Known; you still have to spend a slot learning them). At odd levels, gain 2 spells per day of the next spell level you would ordinarily have a "-" in and 2 spells known. Choose Wisdom or Charisma as your bonus spell/save DC casting stat for spells at your option (Charisma is always your SLA stat either way). This spellcasting package draws roughly even with the Standard Kobold Sorcerer with Greater Rite, a staple of high T2 play.

If you prefer to cast prepared (and want to jump to Tier 1), cast as a normal Cleric, but with no domains or domain slots or spontaneous spell revision. Use Wisdom as your casting stat, but remember Charisma is your SLA stat.

Miscellaneous: These are smaller changes which don't go as far, but could serve as incremental improvements. Be wary of using these if you get an upgrade to the spells as above, unless the game is truly out of control. Feel free to mix and match based on what seems fair/what you like more.

-When you gain +1 STR from the class, also gain +1 CON and +1 more STR (total +2 STR)
-When you gain +1 CHA from the class, also gain +1 DEX
-When you gain +1 WIS from the class, also gain +1 INT
-Change Saves to Perfect Saves (Outsider flavor)
-Change skills to 8+int (Outsider flavor)
-Gain Light Armor Proficiency and full Martial Weapon Proficiency (Con bonus natural armor isn't too much)
-Gain additional natural armor equal to half your HD

[DrewVolker]

In very high OP 3.5 games (basically everything short of stuff that makes the game unplayable), it has been my experience that a vanilla CR 23 Solar is frequently outclassed by level 17-18 characters. I actually have direct knowledge of this, as our Cleric managed to permanently enslave one with a Necrotic Cyst in such a game. It was mostly a sideshow and goofed around mainly using buffs, Heal, and Flashflood for a few levels before it got Disintegrated in a horrible accident.

Of course with Point Buy ability scores, feats, good spells, and most importantly PC gear, the Solar will gain back a lot of ground. One thing it does not have however, is Turn Undead attempts (or any way to get them with no PRC HD available), and at high levels of OP this is a significant disadvantage when comparing it to Clerics, and in my opinion even with PC management and resources it would not be overpowered in such a game. Since the base class I gave already has nice by level scaling to all its abilities I will base all my comments on that of things you might want to enhance.

Spellcasting: If your party is dominated by T1 casters choose one of these options instead of the spellcasting presented in the class:

If you prefer to cast spontaneously, use the Favored Soul Spells per day and Spells Known tables from Complete Divine. In addition, choose a Diety, and add all the spells in its Domains to your Spell List (but not your Spells Known; you still have to spend a slot learning them). At odd levels, gain 2 spells per day of the next spell level you would ordinarily have a "-" in and 2 spells known. Choose Wisdom or Charisma as your bonus spell/save DC casting stat for spells at your option (Charisma is always your SLA stat either way). This spellcasting package draws roughly even with the Standard Kobold Sorcerer with Greater Rite, a staple of high T2 play.

If you prefer to cast prepared (and want to jump to Tier 1), cast as a normal Cleric, but with no domains or domain slots or spontaneous spell revision. Use Wisdom as your casting stat, but remember Charisma is your SLA stat.

Miscellaneous: These are smaller changes which don't go as far, but could serve as incremental improvements. Be wary of using these if you get an upgrade to the spells as above, unless the game is truly out of control. Feel free to mix and match based on what seems fair/what you like more.

-When you gain +1 STR from the class, also gain +1 CON and +1 more STR (total +2 STR)
-When you gain +1 CHA from the class, also gain +1 DEX
-When you gain +1 WIS from the class, also gain +1 INT
-Change Saves to Perfect Saves (Outsider flavor)
-Change skills to 8+int (Outsider flavor)
-Gain Light Armor Proficiency and full Martial Weapon Proficiency (Con bonus natural armor isn't too much)
-Gain additional natural armor equal to half your HD

Thanks a lot, I really do appreciate the time you spent to help me.
Even if this gets shot down by the DM, I will save this information for a future day where I can play this character.

Seriously, thank you.

[Vemynal]

Someone needs to get Urpriest in here with that handy Manuel of his