Factotum wihout magic?

[Tyger]

I'm putting together a low/no magic campaign for my group, and we're restricting ourselves to tier three and below. So far the group includes a Scout (he'll be focusing on archery and stealth), a Rogue (with Versatile Combatant, focusing on poison use), a Swordsage (avoiding the Su abilities until magic comes into play later) and a Knight (or maybe Cavalier, we're playing a mishmash of 3.5 and PF). The last player is very interested in the Factotoum, but the immediate access to magic, particularly when the Factotum's schtick is that they do by copying (and she won't ever have seen magic before) is problematic to the campaign idea.

Now I hate saying no to a player when they have a reasonable idea - I would very much rather say "Sounds great! Here's how we make that work!" but I am a bit stymied on how to pull this one off. I found a homebrew on these forums that substitutes ToB maneuvers for the spells, but that seems overly complicated - the player is looking for something relatively simple. What about bonus inspiration points?

The extra complication is that magic will return to the world (we're actually playing in G.R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire world) and then the players will have some magical abilities return to them (the swordsage will gain access to his Su abilities, the Factotum will get her spells, the Rogue will be able to UMD, etc) so I need to account for that as well.

Any help or advice is appreciated.

[Elboxo]

There is a spell which gives you Intelligence modifier of feats that you see displayed how about a feature akin to that? I.e. Copy a class feature? The factotum mostly does this already.... or perhaps something like wildshape?

[Jeff the Green]

Or martial maneuvers? Say, as a warblade of (factotum level * 0.75), access to any discipline, and no recovery mechanic.

[JackRackham]

Really, factotum is perfect for what you want. NOBODY really knows magic in that world. At most, the kinda know that this gesture with that word is supposed to do something...but it doesn't work. So, have his SLAs just not work until magic returns (give him an IC and OOC hint by having magic work on or in front of him). In the meantime, give him a valyrian steel weapon or something and take it away when magic returns. It's easy to take away items. Class features are tougher.

EDIT: He can justify knowing which words/gestures SHOULD work with knowledge:arcane, which fits a super-genius factotum anyway. He's read about magic, but never seen it.

[Curious]

I'd say give him martial maneuvers instead of spells, usable once an encounter each.

[Slipperychicken]

I could see a Factotum getting along pretty well without magic; basically being a better rogue.

Maybe you could give her extra inspiration points until then, representing her mental energy, which would normally go into magic, diverted to fuelling her brains-over-brawn combat style? When the magic comes back, arcane energies diffuse into her brain, giving her magic power, but occupying the "extra inspiration" space as well.

[Chess435]

Or martial maneuvers? Say, as a warblade of (factotum level * 0.75), access to any discipline, and no recovery mechanic.

I like this a lot. :smallbiggrin:

[Tyger]

Thanks for the feedback. As noted in the OP, we are trying to avoid the martial maneuvers, though I recognize they may be a really good substitute.

She's suggested the extra inspiration points would work for her, and I think that may well be the route we'll go (hey, who am I to argue with the easy answer the player suggested) but I don't want her to feel ineffective. I think, given the creativity of this player though, that won't be a problem - she'll come up with a million ways to challenge me without any extra help from me. :smallsmile:

[Hunter Noventa]

Thanks for the feedback. As noted in the OP, we are trying to avoid the martial maneuvers, though I recognize they may be a really good substitute.

She's suggested the extra inspiration points would work for her, and I think that may well be the route we'll go (hey, who am I to argue with the easy answer the player suggested) but I don't want her to feel ineffective. I think, given the creativity of this player though, that won't be a problem - she'll come up with a million ways to challenge me without any extra help from me. :smallsmile:

Just replace the times she'd gain a spell level with the Font of inspiration feat...and then don't let her take it otherwise because it can get very powerful very quickly.

[Chronos]

The swordsage is nerfed by the lack of supernatural maneuvers, and the rogue and scout aren't as powerful as an out-of-the-box factotum anyway. You don't need to give anything in exchange for the spell-like abilities.

I am worried, though, that you have three or four different skillmonkey characters in the same party: They're going to be stepping on each others' toes a lot. And you can't even do things where they're all sneaking past something, since they've got the knight along too.

[Slipperychicken]

Just replace the times she'd gain a spell level with the Font of inspiration feat...and then don't let her take it otherwise because it can get very powerful very quickly.

Personally, I'd suggest either bonus IP=spell level or spells/day. This lets her take FoI normally, and also makes the "IP nerf" after the re-magicking event less drastic.

[Bloodgruve]

Maybe just allow for a bonus feat instead of gaining another Arcane Dilettante spell/day?

GL
Blood~

[Ernir]

I have actually formalized one such spell -> maneuver conversion. It's the "Martial Dilettante" link in my sig.

/slightlyashamedselfplug

[Talionis]

I'm not sure what you could give the character that you can actually take away.

To give them something else that is nice will be a problem when you give them magic. The last thing you want to do is give the strongest Magic using character in your campaign stuff early, that will make them even stronger when the Magic comes back.

You could say that a Factotum could only cast spells it has seen cast before. Since no spells have been cast, he/she can't any spells. So, what I would think about is giving them spells that look like they aren't Magical. Heroics (Spell Compendium) is an example. Heroics lets them take a Fighter Feat. Just give them a really small terrible spell list (full of spells that don't seem magical) that will get better when more Magic is available.

Also I wouldn't blame you if you didn't want to make him a spell list so just make it so you have to sign off on them. And yes only approve really terrible, really justifiable spells.

[Wyntonian]

Well, it would be pretty easy to use fairly explainable spells and just fudge the fluff. Sleep? Whack 'em. Detect magic? He just can tell if something's magical. Call it a knack. Know Direction? Please. Ghost Sound? Ventriloquism.

By the time he gets really hard-to-explain stuff (Polymorph, Flesh to Stone, Fireball...) magic may not be an issue.

[Piggy Knowles]

I am worried, though, that you have three or four different skillmonkey characters in the same party: They're going to be stepping on each others' toes a lot. And you can't even do things where they're all sneaking past something, since they've got the knight along too.

The knight is the odd one out here, but I played in an all-stealth party once, and it was awesome. We didn't step on each other's toes, we supported one another. It meant we could do things like infiltrate places as a group, use hit-and-run tactics that usually aren't viable for the whole party, and more. It also meant that every other player didn't get bored when the rogue sneaked ahead to scout.

Anyhow, back on topic, I would agree with using martial maneuvers in place of spells. I think I've seen that suggested elsewhere, and it always looked like a fun alternative to me. Seems to fit well with the factotum's fluff, too - he's hanging around with a swordsage, so he starts to pick up how to perform various maneuvers, even ones the swordsage has never been able to do.

If you definitely don't want to use maneuvers, then inspiration points can work, I suppose - but be careful. Hand out too many, and your factotum will break the action economy into pieces once she hits level 8.

[FMArthur]

Do you have a particular level in mind where magic becomes available? If it's not very high, you could get away with many 1st and 2nd level spells being alchemy and gadget based, and a few at higher levels too. Just tell her to come up with nonmagical reasons for each spell she uses, glance over it at the start of the day to make sure of it and play with that. That would certainly play with the factotum's 'resourceful savvy adventurer' image.

When magic comes online she just gains access to the rest of her spells. This is the only option I see that doesn't wind up stronger than the original class when magic comes without losing anything.