Tristalt Game Balence

[RecklessAbaddon]

I've recently grown a slight interest in tristalt, but have no real plans yet to play any games. But how does one usually deal with the action economy? Me and a friend who is also a member of this site got to talking about it the other day, and to me picking three classes (with alignment restrictions still existing) is just so difficult with creating a fun and flavorful character.

I always think "Oh that's a nice pair of classes!" but I end up stumped on what to pick for the third class without it ending up just being a random class with abilities that don't blend well with the other two.

Do people usually Restrict Teir's at all? Ban any combos? Ban dual progression PrC's? Really I just kind of want to talk Tristalt games in general and get an idea for how this plays out.

If it helps at all if I do play a non-PBP game it will probably have 3 players.

[dextercorvia]

I would go Active//Passive//Utility or Economy Breaker, depending on level of optimization.

For example Wizard//Archivist//Psion(or Factotum), where Wizard provides the active offense, Archvist provides mainly buffs, and the last class provides additional actions. That's pretty high tier though.

[Pilo]

Warblade//Swordsage//Rogue

Warblade//Rogue//Racial and template cheese.

Many maneouvres, max Hit dice, max skill point.

[RecklessAbaddon]

Me and my friend talked about crusader/barbarian/x, but i also though about going cleric/scout/swordsage. I have thought about banning teir 1's, but that basically gets rid of most standard casters my group would use. I'd love to do a druid/barbarian/incarnate though. Use the druid aspect of nature varient. Oh heck yea.

[dextercorvia]

Druid//Totemist//Crusader could really take and dish a beating. Wildshape+Extra Natural Weapons+DR and Delayed Damage.

[Z3ro]

How is this even a question? Warblade/factotum/incarnate.

[dextercorvia]

This thread needs moar Binder.

[Curious]

For amazing action economy, Psion//Warblade//Factotum can't be beat. Things like Totemist and Factotum tend to gestalt extremely well, since they are mostly passive.

[gkathellar]

In Tristalt, game balance sort of goes out the window. That's not to say it doesn't exist — it's just so massively variable that it's basically impossible to account for. As an example, consider a party consisting of:
An Idiot Crusader//Wildshape Ranger (w/Feat Variant from CC)//Factotum
A Daring Outlaw/Warrior Swashbuckler/Rogue//Swift Ambusher Rogue/Scout//Whirling Pouncebarian/Dungeoncrasher Fighter/Dervish/Invisible Blade
A Druid//CA Ninja/Ghost-faced Killer//Psychic Warrior/Slayer
An Archivist/Sovereign Speaker//StP Erudite/Thrallherd//Totemist/Archivist/StP Erudite (filling in missing caster levels)

What exactly do you do with a party like that? Some characters are wildly above others in potential power, some swing back and forth wildly between the abilities of their different classes, some are at a consistent level, and every one makes running a regular party of varying tiers and optimization levels look like a picnic.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Warblade//Swordsage//Rogue

Warblade//Rogue//Racial and template cheese.

Many maneouvres, max Hit dice, max skill point.

No spellcasting. It'll be terribly underpowered.

Psion//factotum//warblade. Dragon chassis, full manifesting, a smattering of healing and arcane casting, intelligence SAD.

Wizard//factotum//warblade is of similar power, but it's better if you play it as a wizard with better base defenses and more skills rather than a Jedi/gish.

[gkathellar]

Psion//factotum//warblade. Dragon chassis, full manifesting, a smattering of healing and arcane casting, intelligence SAD.

Seconded, this is awesome. Using Control Body makes you genuinely SAD — and you can shift control to your Psicrystal, giving you the ability to cut people up and manifest powers at the same time. Combined with Factotum's versatility and action-economy abuse, on any given round you should be able to perform several different right tools for the job in quick succession.

[onemorelurker]

I've recently grown a slight interest in tristalt, but have no real plans yet to play any games. But how does one usually deal with the action economy? Me and a friend who is also a member of this site got to talking about it the other day, and to me picking three classes (with alignment restrictions still existing) is just so difficult with creating a fun and flavorful character.

I always think "Oh that's a nice pair of classes!" but I end up stumped on what to pick for the third class without it ending up just being a random class with abilities that don't blend well with the other two.

Do people usually Restrict Teir's at all? Ban any combos? Ban dual progression PrC's? Really I just kind of want to talk Tristalt games in general and get an idea for how this plays out.

If it helps at all if I do play a non-PBP game it will probably have 3 players.

A way to deal with tiers while still giving players enough flexibility to make different characters might be to say that the tiers of all the classes in a tristalt can't add up to less than X, where X depends on how powerful you want individual characters to be. So if you just wanted to make sure no one was tristalting three T1 classes together, X would be like 4 or 5, whereas if you wanted people to use more mid-powered classes, X would be something like 10.

[RecklessAbaddon]

that's a pretty interesting idea, i'd almost have to say teir 6 or 5 count lower then they are or something though because the lower power classes (like monk) get a huge buff depending on the combo. I mean by just grabbing a full BAB or cleric/wizard you make the low bab issue go away. This is really feeling like if i ran one i'd have to sit down with the players and look at all there builds and try to balence it all out. I mean in one hand all casters would mean having 3 casters in the party, but having a character not be a caster is a pretty significant nerf when other characters are as good as you martialy but can also cast. So many house rules i could see being needed. What are campaigns you would even run with tristalt? Special ops military games? Espionage? Characters blessed by the gods? i mean i'm pretty sure my players, if we did play, would be able to roleplay more than just be a avatar of their statsheet. But i could see the temptation to just be a badass be great. Can you use martial manuevers while raging?

[Medic!]

This thread needs moar Binder.

That's what I'm talkin about. Man-five *wh-psh*

[dextercorvia]

Binder//DFA//Crusader would make for some T3 good times.

[kardar233]

Personally, I find it's hard to justify using tristalt to fulfill a character concept, so when I see it it's usually as an exercise in having fun while breaking the entire game over your knee/other appendage.

I'd go Psion//Archivist//Wizard, unless I can swing Spellhoarding Riddled Dragonwrought Loredrake Pun-Pun Kobold, in which case I'll go Mailman instead of Psion.

Using RKV on the Archivist I get serious action economy breakage, adding Spelldancer gets me infinite persists which work for both my Wizard spells and my Archivist ones. If Extend and Persist stack, then you get twice your spell slots worth of always-active spells. From there, build a buff suite to cover everything (check the Twice-Betrayer, Team Solars and Anthrowhale's Invincible for ideas). Your offensive capabilities are generated from your Persisted spells (Shapechange forms with massive stat buffs, gaze and breath attacks from spells, etc.) and also offensive spells/powers from your third side (whether Psion or Mailman), as RKV allows you to nova very nastily. In fact, the reason for the Mailman side is that Arcane Spellsurge works very nicely with Divine Impetus, giving you a ton of prospective Orbs/Maws of Chaos/other blasty spells.

If you're like me and like the idea of killing your opponents in a more interesting way than spamming spells at them, grab a lot of CL boosting and Reserves of Strength and look through splats (I used Immortals' Handbook) for really nasty Shapechange forms. I'm a fan of Epic Dragons personally; I'm currently using a similar build to this that uses a Very Young Polychromatic Dragon as a primary form. 26d20 breath weapon of any chromatic element, half of which is pure divine damage is quite nice, it's Gargantuan size so it gets the full Natural Attack set, it's got better stats than a comparative Chromatic or Epic(ELH) dragon, and 720ft fly speed approximately works out to a slow airplane.

I also like dragons as shapechange forms because there are so many spells in the SpC and DrM that add effects to your breath weapon, like Enervating, Dispelling and such.

[Eldan]

Hmm.

Psion//Factotum//Mailman. See if you can run out of spells in one round.

[Eldan]

Hmm.

Psion//Factotum//Mailman. See if you can run out of spells in one round.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Warblade/Spell to power erudite/Factotum

You win.

Full BaB, best HD, maneuver, all spells, all psionic powers, mimic almost all class features, Font of Inspiration for extra action surge.

Seriously, it's impossible to do better with 3 pure classes

[Suddo]

Do you plan on still only allowing 1 PrC? How are you going to deal with dual progression? I'm personally a big fan of 2 PrCs. And would you allow any WoTC stuff? Oh and any alignment restrictions.
Anyways:
Crusader // Wizard // Factotum Alternate Spell Source (this will allow early entry at level 4 to Mystic Theurge)
Cleric // Wizard // Factotum
Crusader // Wizard // Factotum
Dread Necro // Mystic Theurge // Factotum
Crusader // Mystic Theurge // Factotum
Ruby Knight Vindicator (RKV) // Wizard // Factotum
RKV // Wizard // Factotum
RKV // Wizard // Factotum
RKV // Wizard // Psionic
RKV // Wizard // Psionic
RKV // Wizard // Psionic
RKV // Wizard // Psionic
Crusader // Mystic Theurge // Psionic
*That to 20*
You'll get high Level Cleric Casting (8s I think), Full wizard casting, some psionic casting, 9s in Maneuvers, and the 2 key things: Rebukes and Turns = Swift actions, and Inspiriation Points = Standard Actions.

That's with only 1 PrC per level and 1 dragon magazine thing. The alignment questionable thing is that I go Cleric and Dread Necro to get Turn and Rebuke Undead but am also a Crusader. This could be fix with some mixing around if you want to make it more savvy but it is still alignment abuse.

[Wings of Peace]

Wizard/Generic Warrior/Factotum

[Manateee]

The more complex the game gets, the worse the balance gap can become.

In a normal game it's the difference between an Incantatrix and a Samurai.
(3-6 gamechanging spells per round v. trying to hit something ineffectually with a stick).

In normal gestalt, it's the difference between an Incantatrix//Factotum and a Monk//Samurai.
(5-8 gamechanging spells per round v. trying to hit something ineffectually with a stick).

In a three-way gestalt, I'd imagine it'd be the difference between an Incantatrix//Erudite//Factotum and a Monk//Samurai//Fighter.
(7-10 gamechanging spells per round v. trying to hit something ineffectually with a stick).

I've never even heard of someone playing a game like this, so I'm not going to say what people normally do, but waiting for someone to pick spells for their Erudite//Archivist//Wizard every time the party rests sounds like the stuff nightmares are made of.

[Lateral]

Tristalt Game Balance

Jack-squat. If Gestalt is open to some crazy abuse, Tristalt is just ridiculous.

[Helldog]

Jack-squat. If Gestalt is open to some crazy abuse, Tristalt is just ridiculous.
Not every player is a crazy powergamer. It's hard to believe, I know, but some groups don't have problems with optimization. And for such groups gestalt or tristalt brings new interesting options for fun.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Not every player is a crazy powergamer. It's hard to believe, I know, but some groups don't have problems with optimization. And for such groups gestalt or tristalt brings new interesting options for fun.

It doesn't matter. One guy could play a psion//fighter//factotum because he thinks it would be cool to be able to cast in armor and fight, or just wants to be a Jedi, adding factotum because the other two classes get benefits from intelligence and because it's good to have something to cover the skill points and reflex save. Another person in that same group might make a monk//fighter//rogue. All good saves, full BAB, 8+int skill points per level, d10 hit die.

[Helldog]

It doesn't matter. One guy could play a psion//fighter//factotum because he thinks it would be cool to be able to cast in armor and fight, or just wants to be a Jedi, adding factotum because the other two classes get benefits from intelligence and because it's good to have something to cover the skill points and reflex save. Another person in that same group might make a monk//fighter//rogue. All good saves, full BAB, 8+int skill points per level, d10 hit die.
Err... so? I wasn't talking about players not trying to optimize. I was talking about players not CARING about optimization. There are people like that.
You think I'm not aware that one player can overshadow another player on accident? Sure I am. So what. Some people don't care about such stuff. Their fun in the game might lie elsewhere. Like in RPing.
Hmm. If I think about it, if a group doesn't care about optimization than they're unlikely to use gestalt or tristalt in their game :smalltongue: ... But in case they will, it can enhance their fun! :smallbiggrin:

[gorfnab]

Warforged Warblade // Artificer // Factotum - Self Repairing Tank
Bard/ Sublime Chord // Crusader // Dragon Shaman - Dragonfire Cheerleader
Warlock // Binder // Hexblade - Mr. Creepy Debuffer

[onemorelurker]

Err... so? I wasn't talking about players not trying to optimize. I was talking about players not CARING about optimization. There are people like that.
You think I'm not aware that one player can overshadow another player on accident? Sure I am. So what. Some people don't care about such stuff. Their fun in the game might lie elsewhere. Like in RPing.
Hmm. If I think about it, if a group doesn't care about optimization than they're unlikely to use gestalt or tristalt in their game :smalltongue: ... But in case they will, it can enhance their fun! :smallbiggrin:

The problem with this is that gestalt and tristalt extenuate the already-existing class power imbalance, regardless of whether players know the relative power of the classes they choose. Manateee outlined this very well above:



In a normal game it's the difference between an Incantatrix and a Samurai.
(3-6 gamechanging spells per round v. trying to hit something ineffectually with a stick).

In normal gestalt, it's the difference between an Incantatrix//Factotum and a Monk//Samurai.
(5-8 gamechanging spells per round v. trying to hit something ineffectually with a stick).

In a three-way gestalt, I'd imagine it'd be the difference between an Incantatrix//Erudite//Factotum and a Monk//Samurai//Fighter.
(7-10 gamechanging spells per round v. trying to hit something ineffectually with a stick).

Even if the players aren't optimizing (and the Incantrix//Erudite//Factotum is only getting a spell or two a round), such a character has virtually unlimited options. A Monk//Samurai//Fighter has a small handful of options that are all variations on the same thing.

Unless the players are completely unconcerned with their characters' numerical effectiveness (which might be the case, even in tristalt), some level of balance is necessary to make the game fun for everybody. I imagine this would be especially true in tristalt, where the likelihood of unknowingly choosing a really powerful combination is much higher.

[Helldog]

The problem with this is that gestalt and tristalt extenuate the already-existing class power imbalance, regardless of whether players know the relative power of the classes they choose.
I think you didn't understood what I said.
Whether there is class imbalance or not DOESN'T MATTER. Yes, a character can be stronger than another character, and completely accidentally, by just taking what sounds cool or what the player thinks is needed at the moment, but I've seen groups who simply didn't care that one PC is stronger mechanically from others, because they didn't care about mechanics that much. I'm just saying that gestalt or tristalt opens up new possibilities to those who'd care to use them. THAT'S ALL.

[Real Sorceror]

Monk/Cleric (w Prestige Paladin)/Crusader

Am I doing it right?

Astronomical saves with both Evasion and Mettle, Full BAB, 6+ Skills points, d10 HD, lots of smiting, lots of immunities, casting stat to AC, initiator stat to saves, and all classes are thematically linked.

[Manateee]

I think you didn't understood what I said.
Whether there is class imbalance or not DOESN'T MATTER.
I agree with you, but this is a thread about "Tristalt Game Balence."

[Helldog]

I agree with you, but this is a thread about "Tristalt Game Balence."
And I can't say that some people don't care? If it's not (entirely) relevant to the topic then just ignore it, I won't get mad for being ignored.

[absolmorph]

I think you didn't understood what I said.
Whether there is class imbalance or not DOESN'T MATTER. Yes, a character can be stronger than another character, and completely accidentally, by just taking what sounds cool or what the player thinks is needed at the moment, but I've seen groups who simply didn't care that one PC is stronger mechanically from others, because they didn't care about mechanics that much. I'm just saying that gestalt or tristalt opens up new possibilities to those who'd care to use them. THAT'S ALL.
So... Some people don't care about power difference, so it's irrelevant for everyone?
Does that mean if I punch some people in the face, I've punched everyone in the face? Or if I drink some of the Mountain Dew, I've drunk all of it?
I'm confused by how the acceptance of significant power imbalance by specific groups obviates them as a concern for the people who do take issue with them.

I played in a campaign where the ranger made a steam-powered cannon to shoot bastard swords (this isn't even slightly a joke). My group accepted this. Does this mean it's an appropriate creation for any campaign with the necessary items? I don't think so.

[Helldog]

So... Some people don't care about power difference, so it's irrelevant for everyone?
No, dude. All I'm saying is that despite the fact that gestalt and tristalt makes the game even more unbalanced, it CAN be still fun, because SOME people don't care about balance. That was my point from the very beginning, but apparently it is impossible to have fun when there's no balance, right?
:sigh:

Read my first post in this thread, I dare you. You'll see that what you think I'm saying is simply wrong.

[gkathellar]

I've never even heard of someone playing a game like this, so I'm not going to say what people normally do, but waiting for someone to pick spells for their Erudite//Archivist//Wizard every time the party rests sounds like the stuff nightmares are made of.

I think I've seen it done on the PbP forum - or at least attempted. No idea how it works out in practice —*but I suspect it would function best for a very experienced, high-op group who knew exactly what power level they were aiming for and then stuck to it.


Monk ... Am I doing it right?

Fundamental conflict of interests. :smalltongue:


Read my first post in this thread, I dare you. You'll see that what you think I'm saying is simply wrong.

Let's go back and do that, then. Here it is:


Not every player is a crazy powergamer. It's hard to believe, I know, but some groups don't have problems with optimization. And for such groups gestalt or tristalt brings new interesting options for fun.

This is in response to a post saying that game balance basically doesn't exist in gestalt. You're not asserting anything to the contrary, you're just stating that game balance doesn't matter at all to some people. Your point is well-known, and obviously correct. It does nothing to countermand the existence of massive game balance problems (in the same way that a few people possessing immunity to a poison does nothing to prove it's not poisonous), but whatever. That doesn't appear to be your assertion.

Seriously, though, when you call everyone interested in game balance a "crazy powergamer" you're just asking for people to accuse you of Stormwinding, whether you actually are or not.

[Helldog]

Seriously, though, when you call everyone interested in game balance a "crazy powergamer" you're just asking for people to accuse you of Stormwinding, whether you actually are or not.
Damn... Is it just because of those two words? I didn't think someone would get offended by "crazy powergamer". If I would write "munchkin" than I could understand, but this... :smallfrown:

[motoko's ghost]

I once thought up an idea for a campaign world where everyone played tristalt with monster classes...but it got shot down for being ridiculous and a bookkeeping nightmare:smallfrown:

[Helldog]

I once thought up an idea for a campaign world where everyone played tristalt with monster classes...but it got shot down for being ridiculous and a bookkeeping nightmare:smallfrown:
Because it is. But that's not a reason to not do it. :smallbiggrin:

[motoko's ghost]

Because it is. But that's not a reason to not do it. :smallbiggrin:

The original concept was;


Yeah, that probably would be a bookkeeping nightmare, still cool though.

"my minotaur//harpy//succubus checks the surrounding area for traps"
"your character is checking for traps when your archrival the stone giant//hound archon//yuan-ti baron lurches out of the darkness and fires his harpoon at you, roll for initiative"
:tongue:

It would be kinda nuts as a character could play gestalt beholder mage//illithid savant//war hulk and trust me stating that out is a nightmare.:smallsigh:

[Lither]

From experience, you've almost always got some crazily awesome power being flung around. Balance doesn't exist in this game. The best way to tristalt is to either accept that your PCs are going to be at godlike power, telling them you expect very powerful PCs and plan accordingly, or you can tell them not to optimise too much and have everyone play around the tier 2 range. The second one doesn't work out very well, as accidental high-op builds are extremely easy to make in tristalt games, even with all-melee being used.

On one hand, you can get PCs that are capable of soloing monsters with a CR more than 10 higher than theirs (and this isn't an exaggeration). On the other hand, you've got PCs that are capable of doing quite a lot of things by themselves but when synergising with the other members of the party are quite terrible to behold.

[Wings of Peace]

Damn... Is it just because of those two words? I didn't think someone would get offended by "crazy powergamer". If I would write "munchkin" than I could understand, but this... :smallfrown:

It's okay man. I once started a flame war by accident for asking about a potential PF Witch trick. Granted that was due to one overly sensitive person rather than a group.

[Elboxo]

Me and my friend talked about crusader/barbarian/x, but i also though about going cleric/scout/swordsage. I have thought about banning teir 1's, but that basically gets rid of most standard casters my group would use. I'd love to do a druid/barbarian/incarnate though. Use the druid aspect of nature varient. Oh heck yea.

For the love of balance, ban first teir.
Otherwise you'll end up with Omnificer/Incantitrix/Planar Shephards, and the multiverse isn't ready for that.

[Wings of Peace]

For the love of balance, ban first teir.
Otherwise you'll end up with Omnificer/Incantitrix/Planar Shephards, and the multiverse isn't ready for that.

This is where my opinion differs from what it seems to me is the general consensus somewhat (and I'm not targeting Elboxo for any other reason than his post made me think of this).

It seems to me that the majority of people are of the opinion that acquiring all the top forms of casting + some manner of action breaking is the best option for an optimized tristalt, I disagree. I believe that with severe enough focus -any- of the tier 1 casters can become more optimized than a dual caster progression (including monostat duals).

I gave the earlier (un-optimized) example of Wizard/Generic Warrior/Factotum but this example (with some tweaking) could apply to any tier one and in my opinion yields better results than an additional tier 1 caster would. My reasoning is that with enough metamagic and reducers a single progression caster can become a much more severe threat than a dual progression caster with only moderate metamagic ability.

Normally the benefit of an additional spelllist is the extra options, we'll call these the "I win" buttons. With enough metamagic however, we need less "I win" buttons because we can choose a few buttons (aoe nuke, single target nuke, chain target nuke) that allow no sr, no save, and will end anything we encounter.

The utilities like flight, scrying, teleportation and even healing (with some finangling for arcanists) are universal across the lists for most casters, it's their combat spells that tend to differ the most imo. With enough metamagic however, we reach a point where any handful of spells becomes a combat nuke and any non-combat spells can have their DCs pumped redonkulously meaning that all that matters is gaining enough feats to use our metamagics effectively and gaining enough actions that should our first volley fail we can launch another.

[gkathellar]

Damn... Is it just because of those two words? I didn't think someone would get offended by "crazy powergamer". If I would write "munchkin" than I could understand, but this... :smallfrown:

Eh, don't worry about it. There have been studies done that confirm that people in general are entirely capable to determining tone and intent over the internet, and that we never misspeak slightly because our meaning would have been clear in spoken conversation.

It would be kinda nuts as a character could play gestalt beholder mage//illithid savant//war hulk and trust me stating that out is a nightmare.:smallsigh:[/QUOTE]

This gives me an idea for a BBEG: an illithid savant/cerebremancer who gained his magical powers when he stumbled on a dying Beholder Mage.

[Wings of Peace]

Eh, don't worry about it. There have been studies done that confirm that people in general are entirely capable to determining tone and intent over the internet, and that we never misspeak slightly because our meaning would have been clear in spoken conversation.


I don't suppose you could send me a name for them? I believe you, I'm just really curious.

[motoko's ghost]

It would be kinda nuts as a character could play gestalt beholder mage//illithid savant//war hulk and trust me stating that out is a nightmare.:smallsigh:

This gives me an idea for a BBEG: an illithid savant/cerebremancer who gained his magical powers when he stumbled on a dying Beholder Mage.

The original monster had those levels slapped on a templated vampiric lich beholder//mind flayer, the CR29 version was kinda scary:smalltongue:

[2xMachina]

I don't suppose you could send me a name for them? I believe you, I'm just really curious.

Hint: You're not 1 of them.

You miss the sarcasm

Or I'm not 1 of them.


EDIT: As for game balance... IMO, it depends on the party. Sure, you can have a Incantatrix/Planar Shepard/Cheater, but if the player is like: "I hit him with my staff! I don't even bother to prepare spells", he's still as underpowered (probably more) compared to the Monk/Fighter/Rogue.

[Elboxo]

This is where my opinion differs from what it seems to me is the general consensus somewhat (and I'm not targeting Elboxo for any other reason than his post made me think of this).

It seems to me that the majority of people are of the opinion that acquiring all the top forms of casting + some manner of action breaking is the best option for an optimized tristalt, I disagree. I believe that with severe enough focus -any- of the tier 1 casters can become more optimized than a dual caster progression (including monostat duals).

I gave the earlier (un-optimized) example of Wizard/Generic Warrior/Factotum but this example (with some tweaking) could apply to any tier one and in my opinion yields better results than an additional tier 1 caster would. My reasoning is that with enough metamagic and reducers a single progression caster can become a much more severe threat than a dual progression caster with only moderate metamagic ability.

Normally the benefit of an additional spelllist is the extra options, we'll call these the "I win" buttons. With enough metamagic however, we need less "I win" buttons because we can choose a few buttons (aoe nuke, single target nuke, chain target nuke) that allow no sr, no save, and will end anything we encounter.

The utilities like flight, scrying, teleportation and even healing (with some finangling for arcanists) are universal across the lists for most casters, it's their combat spells that tend to differ the most imo. With enough metamagic however, we reach a point where any handful of spells becomes a combat nuke and any non-combat spells can have their DCs pumped redonkulously meaning that all that matters is gaining enough feats to use our metamagics effectively and gaining enough actions that should our first volley fail we can launch another.

Yep, include epic level casting and you can take on practically anything by yourself.

But with 3 tier 1 classes optimized to do what they do best, you have more options and firepower at your disposal, not to mention fore-said action economy to unleash it in...

[gkathellar]

I don't suppose you could send me a name for them? I believe you, I'm just really curious.

Here you go. (http://www.collisiondetection.net/mt/archives/2006/06/study_people_th.php#001506) Also, another that relates to general communication (http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/020509/keysarresearch.shtml), not the internet in particular. And of course, Intel had this figured out as early as 1995 (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855) (ctrl-F "sarcasm").

[absolmorph]

No, dude. All I'm saying is that despite the fact that gestalt and tristalt makes the game even more unbalanced, it CAN be still fun, because SOME people don't care about balance. That was my point from the very beginning, but apparently it is impossible to have fun when there's no balance, right?
:sigh:

Read my first post in this thread, I dare you. You'll see that what you think I'm saying is simply wrong.
I did. It basically was saying that game balance isn't (or shouldn't be) a concern because "not everyone is a crazy powergamer". Which, by the way, wasn't what set me off, though we mostly lack powergamers here, despite our abundance of optimizers.


I think you didn't understood what I said.
Whether there is class imbalance or not DOESN'T MATTER. Yes, a character can be stronger than another character, and completely accidentally, by just taking what sounds cool or what the player thinks is needed at the moment, but I've seen groups who simply didn't care that one PC is stronger mechanically from others, because they didn't care about mechanics that much. I'm just saying that gestalt or tristalt opens up new possibilities to those who'd care to use them. THAT'S ALL.
That did. Especially the bold. Because you're applying your thoughts to a larger group without anything to back it up (and evidence to the contrary).

And, for the record, nobody referenced the Stormwind fallacy until gkathellar.

[Helldog]

I did. It basically was saying that game balance isn't (or shouldn't be) a concern because "not everyone is a crazy powergamer". Which, by the way, wasn't what set me off, though we mostly lack powergamers here, despite our abundance of optimizers.
I said "crazy powergamer" jokingly. I did not say "munchkin", so I don't get what your problem is.


That did. Especially the bold. Because you're applying your thoughts to a larger group without anything to back it up (and evidence to the contrary).
But... I was talking about people who don't care, not about every player there is... :smallsigh: Context, man, context. My first post here, that you apparently read, was saying that I'm talking just about some of the players, specifically those that don't care. Or do you seriously not believe that there are people who don't care? :smallconfused:

[absolmorph]

I said "crazy powergamer" jokingly. I did not say "munchkin", so I don't get what your problem is.


But... I was talking about people who don't care, not about every player there is... :smallsigh: Context, man, context. My first post here, that you apparently read, was saying that I'm talking just about some of the players, specifically those that don't care. Or do you seriously not believe that there are people who don't care? :smallconfused:
I see no way of seeing that "crazy powergamer" is a joke. And unless I remember incorrectly, a munchkin is a particularly bad powergamer.

Furthermore, the context actually makes it seem more like you're talking about the larger group, not a specific subset. You're arguing that some play groups don't care about optimization or power imbalance. I recognize this as true. This does not even come close to making the fact that gestalt and "tristalt" take the power imbalance inherent in the system and exacerbate it even further (especially when people build to a character concept).
This is what other people were saying. This is what you were disagreeing with. This is completely unaffected by whether or not people care about said balance.

[Helldog]

I see no way of seeing that "crazy powergamer" is a joke.
Not a joke, I said "jokingly".


And unless I remember incorrectly, a munchkin is a particularly bad powergamer.
So you take "powergamer" as an insult? Well, I don't. For me it's synonymous with "optimizer". "Munchkin" naw, that IS an insult if used to descibe someone who just optimizes.


Furthermore, the context actually makes it seem more like you're talking about the larger group, not a specific subset.
Mhm. So in your mind "some" means that I'm talking about the larger group. :smallconfused: Okay...


This is what other people were saying. This is what you were disagreeing with.
Err, nope. I'm pretty sure I didn't disagree with that. Other people were apparently disagreeing with me that people who don't care can have fun playing gestalt/tristalt.

[The Random NPC]

I don't suppose you could send me a name for them? I believe you, I'm just really curious.

Normally if there is a shift in color, they are trying to indicate a shift in tone, in this case sarcasm.

[ericgrau]

Try passive or non-action abilities or stat bonuses. I once did a monk // wizard almost entirely for the speed. Lots of swift/immediate spells or abilities can help too.