[3.5] Spell I'll miss the most from banning four schools?

[Bakkan]

I'm building a new character for my local gaming group. I'm the memeber with the most experience with 3.5 and the most optimization knowledge, so I'm relegating myself to a support role and deliberately limiting my power. How do I do that, you say? I play a Wizard with half the schools in the game banned.

I'm a Focused Transmuter 5/Incantatrix 2. I am obviously keeping Transmutation (my specialty), Abjuration (required for Incantatrix), and Divination (because, you know, Divination). For my fourth school I've chosen Conjuration, mostly for the teleports. I love teleports.

Anyway, I'm taking the UA variant transmuter that, at level 5, can pick one spell of a level I can cast (so max 3rd) from any school and treat it as transmutation. My question is this: What is the third-level or lower Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, or Necromancy spell I will miss the most by banning those schools? Any WotC source is acceptable.

Thanks in advance, I'll keep you all appraised of my decision.

P.S. Secondary question: What officially published items (priced at 10,000 gp or less) grant a bonus to Spellcraft? I have currently only found the Tome of Ancient Lore from the Magic Item Compendium, which gives a +5 competence bonus to Spellcraft checks (among other stuff) but is a little spendy at 5500 gp.

[Hirax]

Charm person, to qualify for a 1 level mindbender dip?

[Ernir]

What is the third-level or lower Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, or Necromancy spell I will miss the most by banning those schools?

Shivering Touch?

[Urpriest]

Invisibility. As a support character you probably won't need the Greater version very often.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

With Incantatrix, I'd get Displacement so you can Persist it with Cooperative Metamagic or Metamagic Effect, since Greater Mirror Image is too high level for you to get with that.

You could instead go Wizard 4/ Master Specialist 1/ Incantatrix, and get that 5th Wizard level later on to pick a higher level spell. Master Specialist gives you Skill Focus: Spellcraft anyway, for easier success with Incantatrix abilities.

[Hirax]

If you're ok with charged items, wands of divine insight (4,500) and wieldskill (750) are right up your alley. Wieldskill grants a +5 competence bonus, and divine insight grats 5+CL, which by default would be 8. The share talents spell from Player's Handbook 2, used with your familiar, would also grant you an additional +2. Dragon Magazine had a moth familiar that grants +3 to spellcraft checks, which can be doubled to +6 if you're an elf (see Races of the Wild sub levels). Otherwise, magic items that boost spellcraft don't exist, apart from the one you found. You'd need to take craft wondrous item to manually make one if your DM won't let you buy a custom one. Note that there's an item that grants +10 competence to psicraft checks, so there's precedence. However, that won't come cheap, either.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You will miss Simulacrum the most, because it (with a little planar binding) effectively gives you the other spells you need. With that in mind, I'd delay that fifth level of wizard like B_F suggested. Check out Loresong (Dragon 335) for your spellcrafting needs.

[sreservoir]

If you're ok with charged items, wands of divine insight (4,500) and wieldskill (750) are right up your alley. Wieldskill grants a +5 competence bonus, and divine insight grats 5+CL, which by default would be 8. The share talents spell from Player's Handbook 2, used with your familiar, would also grant you an additional +2. Dragon Magazine had a moth familiar that grants +3 to spellcraft checks, which can be doubled to +6 if you're an elf (see Races of the Wild sub levels). Otherwise, magic items that boost spellcraft don't exist, apart from the one you found. You'd need to take craft wondrous item to manually make one if your DM won't let you buy a custom one. Note that there's an item that grants +10 competence to psicraft checks, so there's precedence. However, that won't come cheap, either.

guidance of the avatar tends to be better than wieldskill unless you actually want the proficiency.

although wieldskill is +10, was it not?

[Navigator]

Depends if your view is long or short. If it's long, false life is something to consider. Otherwise, mirror image is very often useful, lasts minutes per level, and it "stacks" with miss chance you may already have.

[Psyren]

Mirror Image/Invisibility get my votes. Though you can always wait to ban Illusion until you enter 'trix, and reap the benefits of keeping it in your formative years.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Mirror Image/Invisibility get my votes. Though you can always wait to ban Illusion until you enter 'trix, and reap the benefits of keeping it in your formative years.

Displacement is better than Mirror Image.

[Psyren]

Displacement is better than Mirror Image.

I disagree; Mirror Image is lower level, lasts longer, and stops targeted spells in addition to attacks.

It also starts at 50% miss chance, before going up as far as 87.5% with level. More if you can optimize the images' AC enough via shrinking and dex boosts.

Displacement's lone advantages are that it can buff others and stays at 50% throughout its duration. The former is one less action protecting yourself, and the latter is no advantage since merely having one image left gives you the same benefit.

[NNescio]

Displacement is better than Mirror Image.

Does jack against targeted spells though.

[Metahuman1]

Spells your gonna miss off the top of my head. If I miss something, sorry in advance.

Necromancy: Ray of Enfeeblement. Shivering Touch.

Illusion: Mirror Image. Invisibility. At higher Levels the greater version of both.

Evocation: Force Cage and Wall of force, and maybe one or two others that fall in a similar line that I can't recall off the top of my head. This is, I grant, not till somewhat higher levels.

Enchantment: Charm Person. Suggestion. Both still useful at this level of game play. And plus, as already pointed out, needed to dip Mindbender for 1 level and get that 100ft telepathy. Cause it's super useful.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Now that I've thought about it a little more, you would probably get a much greater benefit by going Wizard 4/ Master Specialist 1/ Incantatrix 9/ Wizard 1, and get Greater Shadow Evocation.

Note that for this particular character, Displacement > Mirror Image because while both can be Persisted, Mirror Image ends once all the images are gone, whereas Displacement lasts all day. Mirror Image has a limited number of uses, Displacement is beneficial against an unlimited number of attacks. Also remember that the 3.5 Incantatrix causes you to lose access to spells you already knew from the new prohibited school. It was the (inferior) 3.0 Incantatrix that allowed you to still cast spells of that school that you'd learned prior to first taking the prestige class.

[Hirax]

guidance of the avatar tends to be better than wieldskill unless you actually want the proficiency.

although wieldskill is +10, was it not?

PGTF changed wieldskill to +5. But yeah, guidance would be better, though I try to pretend it doesn't exist. It's one of those spells where you wonder what they could have possibly been thinking.

[Bakkan]

OK, let me check this out.

My decision is going to be based on the fact that I don't know if this campaign is going to last very long. In fact, I think it likely that I won't finish Incantatrix by the time we're done. That information will drive me to forego some excellent suggestions

Regarding charm person: While I absolutely love Mindbender 1 + Mindsight, I worry that in this case it will be too much of a hassle for the DM. Also, since this might be a short-term campaign I don't want to delay my Incantatrix abilities if I don't have an overwhelming reason. And if I'm not going to be using the spell to qualify for something, I'll want something more powerful than charm person, methinks.



Now that I've thought about it a little more, you would probably get a much greater benefit by going Wizard 4/ Master Specialist 1/ Incantatrix 9/ Wizard 1, and get Greater Shadow Evocation.

I won't be doing this for the same reason. I want to get the benefit out of Wizard 5 now or I may never get it.




Shivering Touch?

Hah! Unfortunately, I don't think this campaign will be particularly dragon-heavy, and I'd just feel wrong using it any other circumstances :smalltongue:


With Incantatrix, I'd get Displacement so you can Persist it with Cooperative Metamagic or Metamagic Effect, since Greater Mirror Image is too high level for you to get with that.


I don't know if my DM interprets Touch spells as being Persistable, and if not, then Displacement is out. I'd rather play it safe.


You will miss Simulacrum the most, because it (with a little planar binding) effectively gives you the other spells you need. With that in mind, I'd delay that fifth level of wizard like B_F suggested. Check out Loresong (Dragon 335) for your spellcrafting needs.


Spells your gonna miss off the top of my head. If I miss something, sorry in advance.

Necromancy: Ray of Enfeeblement. Shivering Touch.

Illusion: Mirror Image. Invisibility. At higher Levels the greater version of both.

Evocation: Force Cage and Wall of force, and maybe one or two others that fall in a similar line that I can't recall off the top of my head. This is, I grant, not till somewhat higher levels.

Enchantment: Charm Person. Suggestion. Both still useful at this level of game play. And plus, as already pointed out, needed to dip Mindbender for 1 level and get that 100ft telepathy. Cause it's super useful.


Invisibility. As a support character you probably won't need the Greater version very often.

Unfortunately, Simulacrum, Force Cage, and Wall of Force are of too high a level for me. As I mentioned above, Charm Person isn't quite there. However, Mirror Image, Invisibility, and Suggestion are all solid options.


Depends if your view is long or short. If it's long, false life is something to consider. Otherwise, mirror image is very often useful, lasts minutes per level, and it "stacks" with miss chance you may already have.

I am taking the short view in this case.

So Invisibility/Mirror Image seem to be the favorites. Looking at them, Mirror Image is probably not Persistable, given how it can be "discharged" in a sense, and even if it were Persistable, it would be worthless after a few fights. Invisibility, on the other hand, is definitely persistable (I'll have to wait until next level to Metamagic Effect it, but whatever).

Given all this, I think I'm going to choose Invisibility. I'm a support character anyway, I'll be buffing and summoning almost exclusively.



Now about the question of items that boost Spellcraft:


If you're ok with charged items, wands of divine insight (4,500) and wieldskill (750) are right up your alley. Wieldskill grants a +5 competence bonus, and divine insight grats 5+CL, which by default would be 8. The share talents spell from Player's Handbook 2, used with your familiar, would also grant you an additional +2. Dragon Magazine had a moth familiar that grants +3 to spellcraft checks, which can be doubled to +6 if you're an elf (see Races of the Wild sub levels). Otherwise, magic items that boost spellcraft don't exist, apart from the one you found. You'd need to take craft wondrous item to manually make one if your DM won't let you buy a custom one. Note that there's an item that grants +10 competence to psicraft checks, so there's precedence. However, that won't come cheap, either.

The wand of divine insight is a little pricey, but the wand of wieldskill is quite reasonably priced. I think I'll pick one up, thanks.


Thanks everyone for your help, if anyone has an idea that hasn't been suggested yet, feel free to post it!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Here all this time, I was thinking Displacement was personal-range. I guess I was mistaking it for Blink, as that's the only similar spell I've found that is personal-range (I even looked in my 3.0 PHB to see if Displacement used to be personal; nope).

[King Atticus]

One of my favorite spells is a 3rd level enchantment spell, Miser's Envy from Draconomicon (pg 114) I use it all the time. Get your enemies to fight each other.

[IdleMuse]

Umm, on the little more mundane side, a masterwork skill tool of Spellcraft is only 50gp for a +2 circumstance bonus. I'm thinking, maybe a hand-held thaumometer of some sort? :smallamused:

[Venger]

What is the third-level or lower Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, or Necromancy spell I will miss the most by banning those schools? Any WotC source is acceptable.

One need go no further than core for my answer. It's something that's really impossible to replicate any other way:

animate dead! I personally don't understand how a person can ban necromancy myself. you're in a special situation which you did explain, but I mean with normal specialist wizards who only need to ban 2 schools. necro's usually picked, and I just don't get how they can leave animate dead by the wayside. everything's better with undead minions.

[Psyren]

Minions are a much better strategy for a cleric/dread necro. The wizard's limit is just too small to be worth the expense.

[SilverLeaf167]

In addition, he has already decided on summoning a lot, so adding even more minions (that are always existent, and not just during battles) would probably make things a little too complicated.

[Bakkan]

Indeed. And I'm afraid I am one of the people who commonly bans necromancy. I play mostly Good and occasionally Neutral characters and I actually like the whole "Undead=Eeeevil" thing D&D has going on. So for me, it's got a few excellent debuffs, but that's about it. Evocation is still dropped first, but just barely.

[Flickerdart]

You could always get Anyspell onto your list, and then just emulate most of the spells you can't cast through that - though how exactly Anyspell works when used by anyone but a Cleric is up to your DM to decide.

[Metahuman1]

Masterwork tool for a +2 to Spellcraft.

Item Familiar is also a solid way too boost up a single skill if your DM's cool with it.

[FMArthur]

Wait... you're deliberately limiting yourself, and you're using Incantatrix of all things to do it and taking an ACF to mitigate your loss of banned schools, neither of which are the two rigged schools? Really?

Am I wrong in seeing a conflict in the design goals of this character?

[Gullintanni]

Minions are a much better strategy for a cleric/dread necro. The wizard's limit is just too small to be worth the expense.

The one situation where I find minions indispensable is in a game that tracks encumbrance (which every game I've ever played in has). Having skeletons or zombies that can carry your stuff for you (including light sources like torches) makes the game far easier for a character who's dumped STR.

...but then, it's a level 4 spell for Wizards. By level 7, you should, perhaps, have solved this problem already.

[Flickerdart]

By level 7, you should, perhaps, have solved this problem already.
Mule is 8 gp. By level 7, you can have so many mules.

7th level WBL is 19k, so 2375 mules. Each one can drag 3450 pounds, so together your mules drag 8.2 million pounds, or 3700 metric tons of stuff. They occupy 9500 spaces - a square roughly 500 feet to a side. And in the middle of all this is you, spurring your mighty mule stampede ever-onward, eternally oblivious to what the campaign used to be about before all of this happened.

[Bakkan]

Wait... you're deliberately limiting yourself, and you're using Incantatrix of all things to do it and taking an ACF to mitigate your loss of banned schools, neither of which are the two rigged schools? Really?

Am I wrong in seeing a conflict in the design goals of this character?

I don't think there's necessarily a conflict. There are some other spellcasters in the party, so I'll be using Cooperative metamagic a lot to enhance their spells. I don't know of any way to do that other than Incantatrix. Yes, the ACF mitigates the loss of four schools, but only by giving me a single spell from one school, which, as you can see, was chosen to be a defensive buff. I'm also going to be using metamagic to do things like Chained Enlarge Person and Chained Greater Magic Weapon later on. So far, my spellbook doesn't include a single spell that deals damage or kills on a failed save. I've got a lot of buffs, some Divination spells, some teleports, and some BFC.

[Gullintanni]

Mule is 8 gp. By level 7, you can have so many mules.

7th level WBL is 19k, so 2375 mules. Each one can drag 3450 pounds, so together your mules drag 8.2 million pounds, or 3700 metric tons of stuff. They occupy 9500 spaces - a square roughly 500 feet to a side. And in the middle of all this is you, spurring your mighty mule stampede ever-onward, eternally oblivious to what the campaign used to be about before all of this happened.

Undead have certain advantages over Mules. No Handle Animal checks, medium size, fine motor control (that is they can hold things). Still, yes, that's a generally workable solution.

[ericgrau]

Deliberately limiting your power and playing an incantatrix? <shrug> Anyway:
Enchantment: heroism
Evocation: magic missile, scorching ray, fireball
Illusion: invisibility
Necromancy: ray of enfeeblement, false life

I'd say the strongest one is false life, followed closely by ray of enfeeblement and then fireball. Especially when loaded with metamagic, which you will have. The average D&D combat is decided in about 2-3 rounds (with 2-3 more of cleanup), which makes any round blown on defense a massive nerf to your offense. Thus I deliberately leave out mirror image and displacement except for the longest of fights. That's also why an empowered false life is king: already up, no combat round. Especially later when you have other higher level spells to spend on offense. Once you can quicken mirror image without blowing your highest level spell slot that might change. One metamagicked ray of enfeeblement makes a single powerful foe nigh-useless with no save and for multiple foes a couple metamagicked fireballs ends the entire fight most of the time.

EDIT: If you're going to be chaining buffs then chained heroism is better than chained greater magic weapon until level 16 or higher. Out of combat GMW has a better duration but then you can cast multiple normal GMWs unless you have 7 weaponed allies or some such. Chained displacement should also be worth it since you're hitting more than just yourself.

[hex0]

I loves me some Scorching Ray, personally.