Ice Assasin & Mindrape-How do they interact in your opinion?

[Demon of Death]

I want to know what you, the Playground, think of an idea I had last night. Using the spell Ice Assassin (http://dndtools.eu/spells/frostburn--68/ice-assassin--1279/) on, say yourself, then using Mindrape (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/mindrape--165/) on the Assassin to get rid of the "all-consuming need to slay the original" part, to have a supposedly infinite army of you without items.

A small question, is there a way to duplicate your items for the Assassin?

[Hirax]

I wouldn't say infinite given the component and exp cost, but it would work as you say. However, you run the risk of it backfiring heavily, because all somebody needs to do is cast break enchantment on your assassins to royally screw you. edit: or use miracle; unlike break enchantment it doesn't require a CL check, it just works.

[Chess435]

I want to know what you, the Playground, think of an idea I had last night. Using the spell Ice Assassin (http://dndtools.eu/spells/frostburn--68/ice-assassin--1279/) on, say yourself, then using Mindrape (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/mindrape--165/) on the Assassin to get rid of the "all-consuming need to slay the original" part, to have a supposedly infinite army of you without items.

A small question, is there a way to duplicate your items for the Assassin?


Provided you can use Ignore Material components and some Rods of Excellent Magic to obviate the material and XP components, I can see this working. As for item duplication, I can't think of anything offhand, but I believe there's something out there for that. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

What stops your clone from mindraping you first? As soon as you're done casting it's his turn.

[Jagu]

if you combine this with Astral Projection and Plane shift, you can duplicate your items.

There'd be a heck of a lot of you's around, half of them unconsious.

[Glimbur]

What stops your clone from mindraping you first? As soon as you're done casting it's his turn.

You have the advantage of pre-buffing, which I'm not sure your clone gets. If your clone starts with all of your buffs and has initiative then you're probably in trouble.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

RAW or in practice? The former should be moot as

[Coidzor]

I want to know what you, the Playground, think of an idea I had last night. Using the spell Ice Assassin (http://dndtools.eu/spells/frostburn--68/ice-assassin--1279/) on, say yourself, then using Mindrape (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/mindrape--165/) on the Assassin to get rid of the "all-consuming need to slay the original" part, to have a supposedly infinite army of you without items.

A small question, is there a way to duplicate your items for the Assassin?

Astral Projection dupes your gear, IIRC.

Mindraping the Ice Assassin into thinking it has a different original, astral projecting, and having it kill the astral projection, takes the gear, and then come back to you?f

The whole absolute command over it should preclude it murdering you on its own recognizance though. Now, if it goes on a long distance mission or something, it could try to hire someone or lay a plot in place to result in your demise, and it could try to kill you before you noticed it when it came back...

Too bad it doesn't say anything about the need ebbing after it feels it's accomplished such though,

[Psyren]

The whole absolute command over it should preclude it murdering you on its own recognizance though.

Not necessarily. Remember that it was never designed to be a clone of the caster. So now you have the unstoppable force/immovable object problem.

You've got two conflicting imperatives:


The ice assassin is under your absolute command.


The ice assassin possesses all the skills, abilities, and memories possessed by the original, but its personality is warped and twisted by an all-consuming need to slay the original.

The question therefore - does "All-consuming" trump "absolute" or not? If it does not consume the control clause, can it really be ALL-consuming?

[Demon of Death]

So to have two fully equipped copies of me would I do the following?

1.)Make my own Demiplane
2.)Plane Shift to my Demiplane
3.)Astral Project myself
4.)Cast Ice Assassin
5.)Mindrape the Ice Assassin to make it not want to murder me
6.)Have the Ice Assassin take my original body's items
7.) Have 2 Fully Equipped Versions of me

Or should the Ice Assassin take the AP's items then I return to my normal body and then 2 fully equipped versions of me.

[TheGeckoKing]

The question therefore - does "All-consuming" trump "absolute" or not? If it does not consume the control clause, can it really be ALL-consuming?

Unless I missed something, the Ice Assassin only has the desire to kill you, not some ability that overrides your control, so you just tell the Ice Assassin "No, you're not allowed to kill me." Just because he wants to kill you doesn't mean he can, especially if you threaten him with a Mindraping if he acts up.

[Psyren]

Unless I missed something, the Ice Assassin only has the desire to kill you, not some ability that overrides your control, so you just tell the Ice Assassin "No, you're not allowed to kill me." Just because he wants to kill you doesn't mean he can, especially if you threaten him with a Mindraping if he acts up.

Emphasis mine; "All-consuming need" could confer that ability.

Or even just consume him. My point is it's a pretty large hole in the rules for the DM to fill.

[TheGeckoKing]

Emphasis mine; "All-consuming need" could confer that ability.

Or even just consume him. My point is it's a pretty large hole in the rules for the DM to fill.

It could by RAI I guess, but it doesn't explicitly say it does, so by RAW I don't see where the hole is.

[flabort]

Unless I missed something, the Ice Assassin only has the desire to kill you, not some ability that overrides your control, so you just tell the Ice Assassin "No, you're not allowed to kill me." Just because he wants to kill you doesn't mean he can, especially if you threaten him with a Mindraping if he acts up.

"Hey, buddy. Yeah, I have a problem. There's this guy I want dead, he's quite a prick, thinks he knows everything and can order me around. Thing is, he CAN order me around, and I can't kill him. Here's 1000 GP if you can take him out for me."

Or

"Hey, mister master. As you requested, I scouted that <something>, and found <whatever about 'something'>. While I was at it, I found a dragon's den full of treasure that you might want to find out. Turns out the dragon died long ago, and no-one found the den to take the treasure."
(Turns out the dragon died, but now it's a dracolich; Can't force the assassin to tell the truth, as it already is)

or

"I can't kill him. I can't kill him. Ooh, hello, structural support beam, I'll kill you instead. Hmm, castle's crumbling now. I'd better get out. Should I tell him? No, he can figure it out himself. I can't kill him. I can't kill him. But what if a falling rock does? Ooh, too bad. Wasn't me, it was the rock."

You'd probably have to order it to prevent any situation which would cause your death, AND not to kill you. :smallwink:

[Talionis]

Even if this does work, your DM could have so much fun with controlling your clones. Over time are they slightly different than you? It says they don't level or really grow or change. But I would guess they still have memory can learn its not like it generates an alzheimer's patient.

I mean you'd always have to worry someone undid your Mindrape and you'd have an evil twin or twenty evil twins chasing you around hunting you.

Even if this works, it has so many fun roleplay opportunities. It feels like it would be like a bandaid keeping a gaping wound closed.

[Psyren]

It could by RAI I guess, but it doesn't explicitly say it does, so by RAW I don't see where the hole is.

There is no RAW definition of "all-consuming," nor is there one for "absolute." So I don't see how there is not a hole.

Or put another way - By RAW, which directive trumps which?

[Hecuba]

There is no RAW definition of "all-consuming," nor is there one for "absolute." So I don't see how there is not a hole.

Or put another way - By RAW, which directive trumps which?

I don't see why the directives are inherently in conflict: an all-consuming desire to carry out a task does not preclude you from being made incapable of trying.

As a hypothetical, imagine that you are fuzzy, blue monster with an all-consuming desire to eat cookies. A bored, fitness-minded psion decides that that is wrong and strings you up with some nifty, permanent version of Control Body. He then uses you like a puppet and makes you do nothing but perform as a backup model in his fitness videos. You eat nothing but celery and drinks made of algae.

You never get cookies. They aren't even a sometimes food. But you still desire them with an all-consuming passion.

This does not change the fact that you are a puppet. You do jumping jacks and push-ups despite whatever struggle you attempt. You hate your existence.

Edit: I forgot to hyphenate one of my "all-consuming"s.

[FMArthur]

You are substituting "desire" for "need" here, though, and the words don't mean the same thing. We don't know that it's what is meant in this situation. An "all-consuming need" may well just be a requirement of the creature's existance and not some personal goal.

[Psyren]

I don't see why the directives are inherently in conflict: an all-consuming desire to carry out a task does not preclude you from being made incapable of trying.


FMArthur beat me to it, but it doesn't say "desire." He needs to destroy you. You trying not to allow him to may work, or it may have no effect at all.

[Slipperychicken]

You are substituting "desire" for "need" here, though, and the words don't mean the same thing. We don't know that it's what is meant in this situation. An "all-consuming need" may well just be a requirement of the creature's existance and not some personal goal.

According to the spell, nothing bad happens if the Ice Assassin doesn't try to kill the original. "Personality is warped and twisted by an all consuming need..." seems to imply that this need is psychological (rather than physical or existential), and could thus be altered by Mindrape.


EDIT: For example, external stimuli (sights, sounds, etc.) are necessary for human sanity as we understand it, but not essential to life or activity itself.

[TheGeckoKing]

FMArthur beat me to it, but it doesn't say "desire." He needs to destroy you. You trying not to allow him to may work, or it may have no effect at all.

Yeah, and I NEED to breath air. Doesn't mean I could if I was forced to follow the absolute command of some nasty guy that said "Don't breath, ever." And on top of that, we're not asking the Ice Assassin do do something suicidal, just opposite to their very existence. No biggie.

[FMArthur]

I'm saying that it could be an inherent part of the thing's very existence, not a necessity for sustenance. Telling a baseball that it is a squirrel can't get the thing to start hoarding nuts even if you got it to believe you. There is a possibility that the ice assassin is the same way - you can mindrape it but the Ice Assassin spell's effect could simply puppeteer the thing regardless of how you alter its own wishes. Or it might cease to be entirely if you take its apparently all-consuming purpose away. As a construction of magic, its purpose in life may just be part of its physical body and not a mental compulsion.

[Psyren]

According to the spell, nothing bad happens if the Ice Assassin doesn't try to kill the original. "Personality is warped and twisted by an all consuming need..." seems to imply that this need is psychological (rather than physical or existential), and could thus be altered by Mindrape.

If the impulse to kill you can be overridden at all, then it's not "all-consuming" by definition and the rules text becomes violated.


Yeah, and I NEED to breath air. Doesn't mean I could if I was forced to follow the absolute command of some nasty guy that said "Don't breath, ever.

You're totally right - a command like that could cause it to simply die, wasting all your components. Like I said, it's up to the DM what exactly happens.


" And on top of that, we're not asking the Ice Assassin do do something suicidal, just opposite to their very existence. No biggie.

:smalltongue:

[Hirax]

The spell says the desire to kill is part of its personality, not core essence or something. A personality isn't necessarily vital to a creature's existence. If you believe mindrape can change personalities, I think it would work as the OP desires. I wouldn't necessarily employ the strategy for the reason I originally posted though, I'd keep my ice assassins under heavy lock and key, so to speak, if I did anything like this (for use with circle magic, research, and other support roles).

[Psyren]

The spell says the desire to kill is part of its personality,

Once again, the word "desire" is not used anywhere in the spell. Please read what I quoted.

[Ravens_cry]

Heh, sounds like a "What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?" question.
A generous DM would make it like Marvin the Paranoid Android.
He'll do it, he'll just hate you for it and be really sulky about it.

[Hirax]

Once again, the word "desire" is not used anywhere in the spell. Please read what I quoted.

I'm aware of the exact wording, it doesn't change my opinion.

[Psyren]

I'm aware of the exact wording, it doesn't change my opinion.

I have nothing against your opinion - I'm just discussing the text of the rules. Inserting words that aren't part of the spell doesn't advance the discussion in any meaningful way.

[Slipperychicken]

If the impulse to kill you can be overridden at all, then it's not "all-consuming" by definition and the rules text becomes violated.


All consuming =/= inviolable.

[Psyren]

All consuming =/= inviolable.

Yes, exactly: all-consuming = all-consuming.

[Urpriest]

Yes, exactly: all-consuming = all-consuming.

All-consuming need (as a facet of the psychology, note) means that that's all the person can think about. It consumes them. So if your Ice Assassin will always be thinking about how to kill you. Whether or not you can order it to not kill you then depends on whether it has to think about your orders in order to obey them.

[TheGeckoKing]

All-consuming need (as a facet of the psychology, note) means that that's all the person can think about. It consumes them. So if your Ice Assassin will always be thinking about how to kill you. Whether or not you can order it to not kill you then depends on whether it has to think about your orders in order to obey them.

Then just make sure you have immunity to mind-affecting stuff via an item and not typing/class, make an Ice Assassin and Mindrape the all-consuming need out of them. Job done.

[Chess435]

Then just make sure you have immunity to mind-affecting stuff via an item and not typing/class, make an Ice Assassin and Mindrape the all-consuming need out of them. Job done.

Granted, even if you specifically prohibit it from killing you, that doesn't necessarily stop it from harming you in other ways. Say, for example, Mindraping you back. :smalltongue:

[FMArthur]

Not so fast. "All-consuming", used that way, is an exaggerative metaphor in common usage. Exaggerative metaphors in normal life can be very literal in D&D. An audience exploding with laughter is a success in the real world but a case for the Wizardly Crimes Bureau to handle in D&D.

[TheGeckoKing]

Granted, even if you specifically prohibit it from killing you, that doesn't necessarily stop it from harming you in other ways. Say, for example, Mindraping you back. :smalltongue:

So be more specific: "You're not allowed to bring harm to me either spiritually, physically or mentally, nor are you allowed to bring harm to me, directly OR indirectly. Furthermore, you're not allowed to cast any spells on me unless I explicitly say you can, and AFTER I say the password "Snapple", AND you can only cast the spells that I specify".

Unrelated, but I can see why Wizards are always driven to spam Gate now. Using this spell would just be infuriating.

[OracleofWuffing]

Wait, if it (well, its personality, actually) has an all-consuming need to slay you... Hypothetically, if you were a Lich, wouldn't that translate to an all-consuming need to prevent anything from smashing your phylactery, which would prevent it from slaying you again?

[darksolitaire]

Wait, if it (well, its personality, actually) has an all-consuming need to slay you... Hypothetically, if you were a Lich, wouldn't that translate to an all-consuming need to prevent anything from smashing your phylactery, which would prevent it from slaying you again?

...and now we need to define what "slay" means by RAW. :smallfurious:

[Coidzor]

And is this need satisfied by one slaying or does it exist as long as there's something to slay?

It doesn't say destroy the soul thereof, or kill and absorb the soul or anything like that. Technically the astral projection self can be killed, right? Or does sufficient damage cause it to be unmade and retract back to the body? *goes to check*

Failing that, true resurrection?


Granted, even if you specifically prohibit it from killing you, that doesn't necessarily stop it from harming you in other ways. Say, for example, Mindraping you back. :smalltongue:

That's what the first mindrape is also for. :smalltongue:

Too bad one can't mindrape it into thinking something completely different is the original.

[Chess435]

Next question: What does an ice assassin do if it's target is taken down and it is not under it's creator's control?

[TheGeckoKing]

Next question: What does an ice assassin do if it's target is taken down and it is not under it's creator's control?

I guess it kills itself, being the closest approximation to its original target.

[OracleofWuffing]

...and now we need to define what "slay" means by RAW. :smallfurious:
:smallbiggrin:


And is this need satisfied by one slaying or does it exist as long as there's something to slay?

Next question: What does an ice assassin do if it's target is taken down and it is not under it's creator's control?
Well, the text doesn't say anything about what happens if that need is satiated, so... I think it still has the all-consuming need to slay the original even after the original has been slayed. So, um... Yeah, fifty years after the action, it'll still be constantly trying to cast Locate Creature.

[Hirax]

:smallbiggrin:



Well, the text doesn't say anything about what happens if that need is satiated, so... I think it still has the all-consuming need to slay the original even after the original has been slayed. So, um... Yeah, fifty years after the action, it'll still be constantly trying to cast Locate Creature.

Given the prevalence of people returning from the dead, this is the most plausible explanation to me, it would simply wait for your return until something else destroyed it. The more interesting question is who the ice assassin would target if you utilized true mind switch. Your body? The body containing your soul? Both?

[The Winter King]

I mean you'd always have to worry someone undid your Mindrape and you'd have an evil twin or twenty evil twins chasing you around hunting you.

Twenty trying to kill you? You would only have one trying to kill you because only an idiot would crate twenty things hellbent on killing you. What you do is clone yourself with the first one, mindrape it to not kill you/ otherwise incapacitate it, and then you make clones of the first (dont forget to mindrape) and allow the others to kill it. Presto you now have an army of perfectly obedient yous that are not harboring an ill-defined need to slay you.

Also if equipment duplication works get a custom item of continous greater spell immunity for break enchantment. Now you only have to worry about miracle and wish.

[Hirax]

Also if equipment duplication works get a custom item of continous greater spell immunity for break enchantment. Now you only have to worry about miracle and wish.

Waste of GP, break enchantment has a CL cap, so you'd be better off just casting mindrape at a very high CL. If ice assassins are being used in this fashion, I'd assume the level of optimization in play would gain other benefits from being able to crank out a high CL too, such as longer lasting buffs, and more powerful buffs in the case of uncapped ones such as algid enhancement.

[Hecuba]

FMArthur beat me to it, but it doesn't say "desire." He needs to destroy you. You trying not to allow him to may work, or it may have no effect at all.

An inability to carry out a need and an inability to carry out a desire are different how? Certainly the consequences might be different, but that doesn't place the control causing the inability and the need inherently in conflict: it just creates consequences.

That said, upon looking again, I don't see the goal as being within the scope of Mindrape. A the spell can alter "emotions, opinions, and alignment" and memories. A need is none of those things. Under the OP's description, the Ice Assassin:

would love you
remember what a great guy you have been to them in the past
have your exact alignments
not want to kill you
hate themselves for trying to kill you on sight anyways


What you really want is layered, contingent dominates. Lots of them.

[Coidzor]

Waste of GP, break enchantment has a CL cap, so you'd be better off just casting mindrape at a very high CL. If ice assassins are being used in this fashion, I'd assume the level of optimization in play would gain other benefits from being able to crank out a high CL too, such as longer lasting buffs, and more powerful buffs in the case of uncapped ones such as algid enhancement.

What's that and what is the source? Never heard of that one before.

[Demon of Death]

What's that and what is the source? Never heard of that one before.
Frostburn (http://dndtools.eu/spells/frostburn--68/algid-enhancement--1295/)

A need could be an opinion, depending on how you see it, as it could be something such as "I need to buy new shoes" but, there is no actual need to do it to survive, or it could be "I need to shoot this guy running at me with a knife", in which case you do need to do it to survive.

[Psyren]

An inability to carry out a need and an inability to carry out a desire are different how?

They're different in the same way that "need" and "desire" are different, i.e. very.



A need could be an opinion, depending on how you see it, as it could be something such as "I need to buy new shoes" but, there is no actual need to do it to survive, or it could be "I need to shoot this guy running at me with a knife", in which case you do need to do it to survive.

Your first example isn't "all-consuming" by any stretch of the imagination.

[Demon of Death]

Your first example isn't "all-consuming" by any stretch of the imagination.

Yea, it's not at all when I spend half a moment to think about it.

Well, I would personally say that since Mindrape says "Severe changes to personality...can be corrected by a break enchantment spell" and Ice Assassin says "The ice assassin possesses all the skills, abilities, and memories possessed by the original, but its personality is warped and twisted by an all-consuming need to slay the original" that Mindrape can remove that warping to its personality and make it my own, with something to make it think that it's necessary for it to live and be subservient to further some cause that my character believes in or such.

To counter Break Enchantment I can always put armor spikes onto my characters armor and put the Spellblade enchantment onto them for Break Enchantment.

[Psyren]

I think I'm being misunderstood. I don't see why you couldn't gently correct your IA via mindrape, and I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

The problem is getting the spell off before he takes action against you. He has all your abilities and memories, so he will know of the mindrape plot at the moment of his creation. And since you're capable of 9ths when you bring him into being, doubtless he will have many ways to either launch an attack first, or escape and come after you later.

I suppose you could expend every spell slot and other ability you possess except for Ice Assassin, then keep a scroll of Mindrape handy; that might do it.* Just be sure you create your minion inside restraints, lest he wrestle you for the scroll. Once you have one made and reprogrammed, he could assist you in restraining the other copies.

*Assuming he comes into being with his slots expended. If not...

[OracleofWuffing]

The problem is getting the spell off before he takes action against you. He has all your abilities and memories, so he will know of the mindrape plot at the moment of his creation.
Wouldn't it follow, then, that he would also know of a command to let you mindrape him at the moment of his creation? Wait, no... I just spun around in a circle there. :smallsigh:

Maybe the best way to resolve this is that the universe stops for a while until $deity takes it out of the console, blows into it, and puts it back in.

[tyckspoon]

The problem is getting the spell off before he takes action against you. He has all your abilities and memories, so he will know of the mindrape plot at the moment of his creation. And since you're capable of 9ths when you bring him into being, doubtless he will have many ways to either launch an attack first, or escape and come after you later.


Bah. Same way you solve every problem. Contingent Celerity, keyed to something that is uniquely you and cannot be satisfied by the Ice Assassin (assuming all spells and effects on you are duplicated to the Assassin, which is not a given.) Something like, say, 'when I complete the casting of Ice Assassin' should do. You finish the spell, you immediately get an extra action to cast Mindrape, and the newly-created Ice Assassin copy is flatfooted and can't really do a dang thing to stop you.

[Chilingsworth]

a couple of things:

1. If Ice Assassin is an "improved version of simaculrum" doesn't it produce a construct? Which would be outright immune to mindrape.

2. Mindrape has a will save, assuming your will save is high enough to beat your own save DC, this would be true of the assassin's save as well. This could be a problem.

[Demon of Death]

I think I'm being misunderstood. I don't see why you couldn't gently correct your IA via mindrape, and I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

The problem is getting the spell off before he takes action against you. He has all your abilities and memories, so he will know of the mindrape plot at the moment of his creation. And since you're capable of 9ths when you bring him into being, doubtless he will have many ways to either launch an attack first, or escape and come after you later.

I suppose you could expend every spell slot and other ability you possess except for Ice Assassin, then keep a scroll of Mindrape handy; that might do it.* Just be sure you create your minion inside restraints, lest he wrestle you for the scroll. Once you have one made and reprogrammed, he could assist you in restraining the other copies.

*Assuming he comes into being with his slots expended. If not...

I meant the second part of my post just in general, not directed towards you personally, sorry about the confusion there.

And the way I thought of it was that he doesn't have any spells prepared as of his existence, because he hasn't spent the hour doing so, like I did that morning, but that spell is loosely defined on that front, so, I may be incorrect.


a couple of things:

1. If Ice Assassin is an "improved version of simaculrum" doesn't it produce a construct? Which would be outright immune to mindrape.

2. Mindrape has a will save, assuming your will save is high enough to beat your own save DC, this would be true of the assassin's save as well. This could be a problem.


Effect: One duplicate creature...An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature
As far I can tell, it seems to be exactly like me, with the Cold Subtype.

EDIT:Regarding 2, with my absolute command over the IA can I force it to fail a save, assuming it doesn't an action?

[Hecuba]

They're different in the same way that "need" and "desire" are different, i.e. very.

On the contrary, the if they would both lead you to try the same act and you are forcibly restrained from completing that act, the only difference should be the precise consequences for your failure.

Needing to do something does not, of itself, make you capable of even attempting it. Nor does desiring to do it.

[Psyren]

You finish the spell, you immediately get an extra action to cast Mindrape, and the newly-created Ice Assassin copy is flatfooted and can't really do a dang thing to stop you.

...Except use an immediate action spell of his own. It could get very Magic: the Gathering ("in response, I cast..")


On the contrary, the if they would both lead you to try the same act and you are forcibly restrained from completing that act, the only difference should be the precise consequences for your failure.

How are you "forcibly restraining it," though? That's the problem. If you're trying to use the command to do this, then the need can no longer be considered "all-consuming," otherwise your attempt to command it would have been consumed too.

[NNescio]

... You finish the spell, you immediately get an extra action to cast Mindrape, and the newly-created Ice Assassin copy is flatfooted and can't really do a dang thing to stop you.

...Except use an immediate action spell of his own. It could get very Magic: the Gathering ("in response, I cast..")

Flatfooted. Can't use immediate actions.

[Psyren]

Flatfooted. Can't use immediate actions.

Source? All I see in the SRD and RC is "can't take Attacks of Opportunity."

[Slipperychicken]

a couple of things:

1. If Ice Assassin is an "improved version of simaculrum" doesn't it produce a construct? Which would be outright immune to mindrape.

2. Mindrape has a will save, assuming your will save is high enough to beat your own save DC, this would be true of the assassin's save as well. This could be a problem.

1. The Assassin is a "living, breathing creature", and not a construct unless the original was.

2. You put Mind Blank/Contingencies/Freedom of Movement/Buffs up beforehand. Ice Assassin does not begin its existence buffed, and you can create it in an area filled with debuffs like Silence, or use Contingencies or readied actions to cast spells before it acts. You can use Moment of Prescience to annihilate the Initiative roll if it comes to that.

[Demon of Death]

Source? All I see in the SRD and RC is "can't take Attacks of Opportunity."

Does the WotC online Glossary count? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_immediateaction&alpha=)


You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
Source: Races of Destiny

[Coidzor]

I suppose you could expend every spell slot and other ability you possess except for Ice Assassin, then keep a scroll of Mindrape handy; that might do it.* Just be sure you create your minion inside restraints, lest he wrestle you for the scroll. Once you have one made and reprogrammed, he could assist you in restraining the other copies.

Friendly neighbourhood beatstick(s) and readied actions to knock the ice assassin unconscious with nonlethal damage and/or grapple it into submission with a smorgasborg of bears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm)?

Can simulacrums and ice assassins take nonlethal? :smallconfused:

I guess if there's no druid in the party, the question becomes what a reliable method of obtaining a pet druid would be for a wizard.:smallconfused: I guess you'd have to find out about a sufficiently powerful druid and make an ice assassin of him/her/it, or maybe just a couple of simulacra?


*Assuming he comes into being with his slots expended. If not...

That one's easy. Make one of your friend who is a prepared caster with your friend not present, but who has given you a list of his prepared spells and who is in a reasonably secure enough location that he won't suddenly have a need to cast more spells than he'll have cast for the experiment. Before it runs off, order it to cast all of its spells, and you'll have the answer to the question and the DM will have to show his hand in a manner that will have OOC repercussions for himself if he tries to change his mind on the matter.

[Hirax]

Does the WotC online Glossary count? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_immediateaction&alpha=)

As a corollary, if you could use immediate actions while flat footed, nerveskitter wouldn't need a line specifying that it can be cast while flat-footed.

[NNescio]

Source? All I see in the SRD and RC is "can't take Attacks of Opportunity."

SRD.


Immediate Actions

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

Yeah, they should have put that section under the flat-footed section as well, but the lack of such doesn't change RAW in any way.

[Psyren]

So if it loses initiative you can catch it off guard then?

[Hirax]

Probably. I don't think it would inherit your active buffs, but if it did and you had foresight running...

[Hecuba]

How are you "forcibly restraining it," though? That's the problem. If you're trying to use the command to do this, then the need can no longer be considered "all-consuming," otherwise your attempt to command it would have been consumed too.

The control element of Ice Assassin is never noted as being psychological or based on personality. It's an effect of the spell: the Ice Assassin does what you want it to, just as a magic missile flies where you want it to. It is your shiny, exploding murder-puppet.

As I noted earlier, Mindrape fails because it cannot execute direct behavioral control: it has to alter intent, which alters behavior indirectly. The compulsive nature of a need makes the goal outside of that spell's scope. If you were to try to deal with it somehow on a personality level, I could see the conflict.

But you already have absolute control (and thus direct control over behavior without needing to care about personality and/or memories) as a function of the spell. Why bother?

Edit: The only real way I can see this as a problem is if you read all-consuming as not being restricted to the IA's personality and psychology. At that point, however, you're basically arguing that the IA will act like a black hole: it walks around and somehow sucks up all matter, energy, magic, and thoughts that get in it's way. That's an... interesting reading, and I doubt it's the one you're using.

[Reaver225]

This is why mindraping polymorphed clones of yourself is much more effective. No need for that annoying "kill yourself" need.

Researching your own version of ice assassin would be easier, though, wouldn't it?

[Coidzor]

Even 3/4 of X rather than half of X would be good, and even in a conservative reading of spells would be a reasonable thing to have as 2 spell levels above simulacrum.

15th level wizards do get to do most of what 20th level wizards do, though they do have the downside of not being self replicating like getting minions with 9ths who use them to make more minions and then conquer the planes.

[Psyren]

The control element of Ice Assassin is never noted as being psychological or based on personality. It's an effect of the spell: the Ice Assassin does what you want it to, just as a magic missile flies where you want it to. It is your shiny, exploding murder-puppet.

This analogy makes no sense to me - Magic Missiles don't have an all-consuming need to destroy you.

And no, an all-consuming need would not manifest as a black hole, though it could cause your creation to implode nonetheless.

[OracleofWuffing]

And no, an all-consuming need would not manifest as a black hole, though it could cause your creation to implode nonetheless.
May we name the Wizard that does this "Large Hadron?"

[FMArthur]

I am only able to imagine that this goes horribly wrong when you do it, or has a not-ignorable chance to. If you don't go before him, he will act without you being able to cast Mindrape on him or issue your command not to kill you. If you're there in person, he'll use his spells to murder you upfront. If it's your Astral Projection or your spells can't reliably kill you, he'll book it out of there to break your telepathy and command connection (which doesn't get repaired upon return), and start casting Ice Assassins on his own. If the situation degenerates to that point, you're about as screwed as it is possible to get in this game.

So, it sounds fun! :smallbiggrin:

[Talionis]

I am only able to imagine that this goes horribly wrong when you do it, or has a not-ignorable chance to. If you don't go before him, he will act without you being able to cast Mindrape on him or issue your command not to kill you. If you're there in person, he'll use his spells to murder you upfront. If it's your Astral Projection or your spells can't reliably kill you, he'll book it out of there to break your telepathy and command connection (which doesn't get repaired upon return), and start casting Ice Assassins on his own. If the situation degenerates to that point, you're about as screwed as it is possible to get in this game.

So, it sounds fun! :smallbiggrin:

Fun! Major Upside. Major Downside. Let it be risky...

[Demon of Death]

I am only able to imagine that this goes horribly wrong when you do it, or has a not-ignorable chance to. If you don't go before him, he will act without you being able to cast Mindrape on him or issue your command not to kill you. If you're there in person, he'll use his spells to murder you upfront. If it's your Astral Projection or your spells can't reliably kill you, he'll book it out of there to break your telepathy and command connection (which doesn't get repaired upon return), and start casting Ice Assassins on his own. If the situation degenerates to that point, you're about as screwed as it is possible to get in this game.

So, it sounds fun! :smallbiggrin:

Wouldn't be a challenge for a 17th level Wizard without it, now would it? :smalltongue:

[Reaver225]

I am only able to imagine that this goes horribly wrong when you do it, or has a not-ignorable chance to.It's called 50 symbols of stun/sleep/persuasion all around the area you're casting the assassin spell at, with a wall with a hole in it blocking you from the effects but not it from the effects. Probably persuasion would work the best on the short term bit.

Best break out some diamonds.

[FMArthur]

Wouldn't be a challenge for a 17th level Wizard without it, now would it? :smalltongue:

I would prefer my chances against gods to a fight against several instances of myself. No matter how powerful you get, you is less than you times 100.
Unless you possess negative power, I suppose.

[Zaranthan]

Fun! Major Upside. Major Downside. Let it be risky...

I believe he was using this definition of fun. (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Fun)

[Coidzor]

If you never bother to learn any action economy manipulating spells until after you start this, talking is a free action that you can do on someone else's turn.

I'll admit, I didn't go over every iota of the spell description, but it didn't seem to specify the command taking any kind of action, so a simple "Stop"if the command works should suffice for it trying to roast ya or run away.

[Psyren]

If you never bother to learn any action economy manipulating spells until after you start this, talking is a free action that you can do on someone else's turn.

I'll admit, I didn't go over every iota of the spell description, but it didn't seem to specify the command taking any kind of action, so a simple "Stop"if the command works should suffice for it trying to roast ya or run away.

All of that hinges on the command being able to override the all-consuming need to destroy you. After you create it is a really bad time to find out if that trumps or not.

What's more - he'll even know if you have a save game/astral seed/clone prepped, and if he succeeds in murdering you, he'll head immediately to where your failsafe will be to finish the job.

[FMArthur]

Are commands actually covered by free action talking? The game usually seems to treat those differently in a strange way for stuff like command word activation and directing some spells after casting, making them consume actual actions.

[OracleofWuffing]

All of that hinges on the command being able to override the all-consuming need to destroy you. After you create it is a really bad time to find out if that trumps or not.
I got it.

Before we do it for reals, we'll test the process out on a level 1 Commoner Monk!


Are commands actually covered by free action talking? The game usually seems to treat those differently in a strange way for stuff like command word activation and directing some spells after casting, making them consume actual actions.
On the other hand, Control Undead lets you command undead creatures by voice- once that standard action's used to cast the spell, you don't spend further actions to actually do the control.

The wording isn't "You command the ice assassin," or "You can issue commands to the ice assassin," but rather "The Ice Assassin is under your absolute command." So, it's sort of a property of the Ice Assassin, and not a property of your command.

:smalltongue: If one abandons a bunch of logic and common sense, one might be able to draw a corollary that the ice assassin's command doesn't need to be verbal!

[Hecuba]

This analogy makes no sense to me - Magic Missiles don't have an all-consuming need to destroy you.

The need is an aspect of personality, and thus psychology. The control is not so narrowly framed: you don't have to control their thoughts. It's not a [mind-affecting] compulsion. It's just control, like you control the target of a magic missile or the specific kind of creature affected by antipathy.

The need is framed psychologically: it's an aspect of personality. Why would it consume magical or physical constraints that have nothing to do with the mind? Why are you assuming it has any remote agency of free will to pursue it's needs, however great?

[Psyren]

The need is an aspect of personality, and thus psychology. The control is not so narrowly framed: you don't have to control their thoughts. It's not a [mind-affecting] compulsion. It's just control, like you control the target of a magic missile or the specific kind of creature affected by antipathy.

The need is framed psychologically: it's an aspect of personality. Why would it consume magical or physical constraints that have nothing to do with the mind? Why are you assuming it has any remote agency of free will to pursue it's needs, however great?

You're reading it backwards. It states that the need warps and twists its personality; it's personality does not somehow dictate the need; nor does it say what you are attempting to say, that the need is somehow a product of the thing's personality. It has your personality, save for an all-consuming need to destroy you, a component you are unlikely to possess yourself.

[Hecuba]

It has your personality, save for an all-consuming need to destroy you, a component you are unlikely to possess yourself.

Yes, your personality, with the added bonus of an all-consuming need to destroy you. Never said anything different. But unless you're suggesting that that all-consuming need has a scope greater than the psychological, then I don't see the issue.

To be clear, are you suggesting that the all consuming need would consume, for example, Magical shackles holding the IA down? If not, then why would it consume any other magical of physical effect that restricts or controls the IA without interacting with it's mind?

[Psyren]

To be clear, are you suggesting that the all consuming need would consume, for example, Magical shackles holding the IA down? If not, then why would it consume any other magical of physical effect that restricts or controls the IA without interacting with it's mind?

1) No, I'm not;
2) It wouldn't. But trying to command it not to attack you would interact with its mind. If you can somehow physically restrain it from attacking or fleeing in the window between creating it and reprogramming it, great.

[Hecuba]

But trying to command it not to attack you would interact with its mind.

Humm. This would seem to be a misreading on my part. I had always read it as "under your absolute control" rather than "absolute command." Given that, it would seem I am wrong: the word "command" implies a great deal more in the way of agency than "control" does.

[flabort]

What I have learned reading this... debate:

1) The need is all-consuming
2) The need is not part of the personality, but affects the personality
Note: Being hungry or thirsty, is a need to eat or drink; It would be all-consuming if you were about to die from thirst or hunger, it is not part of personality, but you are definitely going to have a different personality while that starved. This is therefor the same kind of thing, only less life threatening.
3) You can control it. "Absolute" control. This means you can stop it from doing something it WANTS to do, or even needs to do (Like eat).
4) You can control it, even before it casts any spell, or gets an action, because talking is a free action (you MAY not even need to talk, apparently).
5) You can tell it to "Stay still, don't cast any spells, don't do anything until I say you can". This will make it so that it absolutely cannot take any action, giving you time to layer on spells and commands.
6) You can possibly have contingent spells ready that cast themselves upon completing a certain criteria. Such as, "There is a creature created by magic", which would be the IA, or "There is a creature that wasn't there a moment ago", which would be the IA, or "There is a creature in THIS SPOT", and since you're beside that spot, and make the IA in that spot, that would make that the IA. You can spend weeks or months creating the spot to create it in, allowing 500 spells to cast and affect the IA before it can do anything.

So, regardless of what the spells do, though, you can give this command, which will always control it, forcing it's need to take back seat:
"Never harm me, or cause anything that would harm me. Do not let others harm me, or any extenuating circumstances to cause me harm. If you or I become aware of anything that would cause me harm, you will do everything you can to prevent it. If you become aware of anything that, in being prevented, would cause me harm, do everything you can to make sure it happens. Anything that results in injury, pain, fear, indigestion, or death, or any combination thereof, is harm, and you must prevent any harm to me whatsoever."

It would loathe you for life, but you would be effectively immortal, so long as it was alive, because it would even prevent old age from causing death! :smalltongue: :smallamused:

[Psyren]

If you can "force the need to take a backseat," as you phrased it, then it can't have been "all-consuming" to begin with. That's all I'm saying.

Well, that and "your DM needs to decide what ultimately happens." I know we're all in favor of bright-line tests here, but the DM has to step in to adjudicate some things that the designers never intended, and this is one of them. There's nothing wrong with it, s/he's there for a reason.

[Coidzor]

All of that hinges on the command being able to override the all-consuming need to destroy you. After you create it is a really bad time to find out if that trumps or not.

What's more - he'll even know if you have a save game/astral seed/clone prepped, and if he succeeds in murdering you, he'll head immediately to where your failsafe will be to finish the job.

Only two ways to find out, and one if one doesn't have complete trust in one's DM.

And, after all, isn't this kind of insanity exactly why even mad wizards still have friends?

[NNescio]

Only two ways to find out, and one if one doesn't have complete trust in one's DM.

And, after all, isn't this kind of insanity exactly why even mad wizards still have friends?

For Science! Magic!

[2xMachina]

If you can "force the need to take a backseat," as you phrased it, then it can't have been "all-consuming" to begin with. That's all I'm saying.

Well, that and "your DM needs to decide what ultimately happens." I know we're all in favor of bright-line tests here, but the DM has to step in to adjudicate some things that the designers never intended, and this is one of them. There's nothing wrong with it, s/he's there for a reason.

However, if you CAN'T "force the need to take a backseat", your command is not so absolute is it?

Theory testing: Make an ice assassin of a monk. Tell the assassin NOT to let harm befall the monk in anyway. See what happens.

[Alleran]

If you can "force the need to take a backseat," as you phrased it, then it can't have been "all-consuming" to begin with. That's all I'm saying.
If their psychology is warped by this "all-consuming need" and you further warp that psychology using mindrape (or dominate) so they don't have an all-consuming need, why would that not work? The ice assassin, when created, has an all-consuming need to kill the original. You can then use magic to forcibly control that need.

Even "absolute command" should work. When it's created, it will have this all-consuming need, but that's only the ice assassin at the time of creation. Nothing, as far as I can tell, prevents further effects from being applied to it. So you put extra restrictions on it with your absolute command (at the time of creation, it has the all-consuming need, but you haven't actually used your command over it to do anything as of yet).

EDIT: Apologies if I'm restating what's already been said. I only skimmed the rest of the thread.

[Psyren]

If their psychology is warped by this "all-consuming need" and you further warp that psychology using mindrape (or dominate) so they don't have an all-consuming need, why would that not work? The ice assassin, when created, has an all-consuming need to kill the original. You can then use magic to forcibly control that need.

Not disputing Mindrape, as it is clearly a reset button.


Even "absolute command" should work. When it's created, it will have this all-consuming need, but that's only the ice assassin at the time of creation. Nothing, as far as I can tell, prevents further effects from being applied to it. So you put extra restrictions on it with your absolute command (at the time of creation, it has the all-consuming need, but you haven't actually used your command over it to do anything as of yet).

It has an all-consuming need to slay the source of that command. Unstoppable force, meet immovable object.

You can command it just fine if you're not the target - that's how the spell works, after all. The designers never planned for someone making an ice assassin of themselves.

[Alleran]

It has an all-consuming need to slay the source of that command. Unstoppable force, meet immovable object.

You can command it just fine if you're not the target - that's how the spell works, after all. The designers never planned for someone making an ice assassin of themselves.
Ah, I see.

But even if you're not the target, you can still command it not to seek out and kill said individual. Wouldn't that bring you right back to your ability to command it to do something that goes against every facet of its psychology? Mindrape is obviously a reset button. Dominate forces them to go against that personality (though they'd get continual Will saves against it). The absolute command seems to skip the "give them Will saves" part. Basically a "do what I say with no save against it" kind of deal.

"It wants to do everything it can to slay a target, and you've told it not to."

Isn't that true no matter what the target is, be it you or John Smith from Fantasy City 16124?

[Psyren]

But even if you're not the target, you can still command it not to seek out and kill said individual.

Can you? Can you make an Ice Assassin and tell it "under no circumstances should you ever try to kill your target?"

But even if you could, that would still be a different situation from its target being the one to try to command it.

[Alleran]

Can you? Can you make an Ice Assassin and tell it "under no circumstances should you ever try to kill your target?"
Well, I suppose the question is what happens if an ice assassin is forbidden from and/or unable to fulfill the need that drives it.

Does it melt? Does the spell fail? Does it just stand in the one spot, trying to work through conflicting commands?

[Psyren]

Well, I suppose the question is what happens if an ice assassin is forbidden from and/or unable to fulfill the need that drives it.

Does it melt? Does the spell fail? Does it just stand in the one spot, trying to work through conflicting commands?

Yep, exactly. That's where the DM comes in. Anything else would violate RAW anyway.