Design challenge: The phantom

[Mystify]

The challenge is to create a character that is as close to non-existence as possible, while simultaneously able to exert a profound influence over events. They should be able to fulfill the role of evil mastermind, but without ever revealing their presence. Even their minions should have no clue this person exists.

At a minimum, the character must be invisible and intangible at all times, or similarly non-existent, and a permanent mind-blank effect is a near necessity. They should be able to remain hidden from concentrated search efforts, incidental battles, and anything that could coincidentally reveal them.

[Treblain]

I saw a thread a few days ago about a creature that seems to accomplish it rather easily. Vecna-blooded... yeah... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12576489&postcount=9) All prior knowledge of you disappears, and you're immune to all divinations. If you ever screw up your machinations by coming into contact with someone, lose the template and acquire it again, which would repeat the erasure of all knowledge of you.

Also, it's a pretty weak class, but the Psibond Agent's Nudge ability can be really fun with this.

[Greenish]

Factotum TWFing with handguns, with some IUS thrown in.


…Oh, this isn't about The Ghost Who Walks?

[Manateee]

The ghost template class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) is etherealness in a 1-level dip. Add some Beguiler levels (for stealthiness during manifestation + mind control and illusions for chicanery) and you could get really get your Moriarty on.

[Mystify]

I saw a thread a few days ago about a creature that seems to accomplish it rather easily. Vecna-blooded... yeah... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12576489&postcount=9) All prior knowledge of you disappears, and you're immune to all divinations. If you ever screw up your machinations by coming into contact with someone, lose the template and acquire it again, which would repeat the erasure of all knowledge of you.

Also, it's a pretty weak class, but the Psibond Agent's Nudge ability can be really fun with this.
That definitely seems like a strong component. Immunity to divination means immunity to true sight. If they can persist superior invisibility, nothing would be able to detect them.

The ghost template class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) is etherealness in a 1-level dip. Add some Beguiler levels (for stealthiness during manifestation + mind control and illusions for chicanery) and you could get really get your Moriarty on.
Combine this with the above. I'd take 2 levels of ghost to pick up their recharging telekenisis.

[Big Fau]

Vecna-Blooded Ardent X/Psion Uncarnate 10?

[gorfnab]

Void Incarnate (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a) - epic level prestige class that specializes in "not being"

[Mystify]

Vecna-Blooded Ardent X/Psion Uncarnate 10?

I'm not very familiar with psionics. Elaborate.

[Manateee]

Uncarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionUncarnate.htm) is a prestige class that can become incorporeal for a minute or two per day and gradually gets some ghostlike abilities until its capstone, which lets it stay incorporeal indefinitely.

Ardent is a psion class with a really funky powers known progression that lets it get 9th level powers, even with a bunch of lost manifesting progression (unlike the other primary manifesters). Psion Uncarnate loses a bunch of manifesting progression, so it's the goto manifester for the job.

[Treblain]

That definitely seems like a strong component. Immunity to divination means immunity to true sight. If they can persist superior invisibility, nothing would be able to detect them.

Combine this with the above. I'd take 2 levels of ghost to pick up their recharging telekenisis.

The ghost idea is good, but I think savage progressions can't be taken partway.

Persisted Superior Invisibility takes a lot of investment to get, and Vecna-blooded makes you immune to See Invisibility and other divinations anyway, so I'd put it aside. Being a ghost makes many detection considerations unnecessary, since they fly, make no noise, and leave no tracks.

A 20th level build isn't really needed for this. Start with Vecna-blooded ghost (do ghosts have blood?) and find your way into Mindbender for telepathy/mindsight. If you can manage it, I like Psibond Agent for two levels not only because its Nudge ability is a no-save, but because Psibond isn't mind-affecting. Take Darkstalker to avoid odd senses.

After that, you're pretty much free to do whatever you want. You're invisible, incorporeal, immune to all divinations, undetectable by most means, telepathic, can possess people, and you have Mindsight. Spend the rest of the build shoring up whatever weak points are left.

[Mystify]

The ghost idea is good, but I think savage progressions can't be taken partway.

Persisted Superior Invisibility takes a lot of investment to get, and Vecna-blooded makes you immune to See Invisibility and other divinations anyway, so I'd put it aside. Being a ghost makes many detection considerations unnecessary, since they fly, make no noise, and leave no tracks.

A 20th level build isn't really needed for this. Start with Vecna-blooded ghost (do ghosts have blood?) and find your way into Mindbender for telepathy/mindsight. If you can manage it, I like Psibond Agent for two levels not only because its Nudge ability is a no-save, but because Psibond isn't mind-affecting. Take Darkstalker to avoid odd senses.

After that, you're pretty much free to do whatever you want. You're invisible, incorporeal, immune to all divinations, undetectable by most means, telepathic, can possess people, and you have Mindsight. Spend the rest of the build shoring up whatever weak points are left.
Look at the linked ghost progression. It specifically says you can take only a part if you want.
Vecna-blooded doeasn't have anything to do with having blood, it means you bathed in Vecna's blood in a ritual.
And being a ghost alone doesn't cut it. What if someone is on the ethereal plane? you need a genuine source of continuous invisibility, not just sit around on the ethereal plane. You aren't even incorporeal on the ethereal plane, so just being invisible there means someone can still bump into you.

[Jheska]

Still possible to be detected by mindsight, RAW nothing in the game can prevent mindsight with the exception of not possessing on int score. That is sadly necessary to your character concept I think.

[0nimaru]

Truly RAW has no defense against mindsight, although a reasonable mind would say Mindblank should protect you from it. At the very least it should give them only your square non-pinpointed.

Assuming your DM is harsh and non-reasonable, then you would need to be able to locate and immediately dispatch any mind-sighters around you. Sadly, at the rate of birth for vaguely telepathic babies that have a Tsochar feat I think this character would have to spend all day killing telepaths.

[Mystify]

Hmm, that is problematic. However, it wouldn't work across planar boundaries, so being ethereal would stop it if they are on the material plane. If they are ethereal as well it gets tricker.
I think we need a contingent counter for that one.

[Urpriest]

Psion Uncarnate's Assume Likeness ability could arguably let you assume the likeness of something with Ex invisibility, like a Will-o-the-Wisp or Invisible Stalker. A more direct option might be to become a Will-o-the-Wisp more straightforwardly via something like Divine Minion->Aberrant Wildshape.

[Thurbane]

If it's for an NPC, the Phantom template (MM5) seems appropriate - combine with Vecna Blooded, as above.

[Treblain]

If someone with mindsight detects you, assuming they decide to investigate further, you simply get away and then lose and regain the Vecna-blooded template, and they forget they ever encountered you. You now know who to kill/dominate/avoid.

The whole ethereal junk with ghosts gives me a headache, but if I understand it correctly, there's nothing to worry about. So what if someone bumps into you on the ethereal plane? No, you're not invisible to them, but who cares? They weren't looking for you specifically; you are impossible to locate without divinations, and you're super-immune to divinations. To anyone not looking for you, you're just another ghost, and a non-hostile one, so they'll ignore you. If you really need to manifest, ordinary invisibility isn't hard to come by.

The easiest way to pull this idea off is to have no reason for anyone to look for you in the first place.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You may also wish to consider the Joker Bard found in my sig for details. His whole shtick is to not be recognized, and to be able to keep tabs on the party. You may find some inspiration there (pun intended).

[Mystify]

If someone with mindsight detects you, assuming they decide to investigate further, you simply get away and then lose and regain the Vecna-blooded template, and they forget they ever encountered you. You now know who to kill/dominate/avoid.

The whole ethereal junk with ghosts gives me a headache, but if I understand it correctly, there's nothing to worry about. So what if someone bumps into you on the ethereal plane? No, you're not invisible to them, but who cares? They weren't looking for you specifically; you are impossible to locate without divinations, and you're super-immune to divinations. To anyone not looking for you, you're just another ghost, and a non-hostile one, so they'll ignore you. If you really need to manifest, ordinary invisibility isn't hard to come by.

The easiest way to pull this idea off is to have no reason for anyone to look for you in the first place.

You are trying to argue for practical nonexistance. I am looking for theoretical nonexistance. Once you have theoretical non-existance, you can utilize that to be the unseen guiding force unfolding their master plan. If you simply want to never be found, go to the middle of nowhere and cast imprisonment on yourself. Thats not the point. The point is to remain undetectable whilst in full control of everything. your complete non-existance means you have the freedom to exert control from anywhere, to spy on anything. Being on the ethereal plane is a trivial trick for a high level caster, and is not sufficient to pull this off. You not only want to be have nobody suspect you exist, you want to be unfindable by accident, safe against any safeguards people put up to detect intrusion in general, and finally, even if somebody manages to suspect that there is a force exerting an influence on the world(if you are influencing events, some conspiracy nut could notice), it would be impossible to find a shred of evidence to back it up.

[Wings of Peace]

Truly RAW has no defense against mindsight, ...

If we follow true RAW we don't know if there is a defense against mindsight or not.


This works much like blindsense—the creature knows what square each thinking being is in, but it does not see the being, and the being still has total concealment unless the creature can see it by some other means.


When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DCis higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you.

Bolding mine. If we base our logic purely by the rules as they are written, we don't know if Darkstalker negates Mindsight or not. We know that Mindsight acts "muck like blindsense" but we don't know if that includes acting like blindsense when trying to detect a create with the Darkstalker feat.

[TroubleBrewing]

We know that Mindsight acts "muck like blindsense" but we don't know if that includes acting like blindsense when trying to detect a create with the Darkstalker feat.

Bolding mine. Whether this was intentional or not, this little typo is hilarious in the context of a RAW-fuzzy discussion.

[Slipperychicken]

This might be better accomplished through RP. If you don't want your players to find him, at all, ever, you say "you don't find him". And if no one ever sees him, does he really need stats? Also, undetectable characters tend to avoid detection through foresight (not just the spell, actual foresight) and extreme paranoia. If he's caught in a battle, he's doing it seriously, terribly wrong. If no one knows who or what s/he is, there isn't much need to be intangible.


He'll probably be Astral Projected from his personal inaccessible demiplane most of the time, covertly sending out orders through multiple independent networks, none of which know who the boss is. That makes him pretty much untouchable.

[Mystify]

This might be better accomplished through RP. If you don't want your players to find him, at all, ever, you say "you don't find him". And if no one ever sees him, does he really need stats? Also, undetectable characters tend to avoid detection through foresight (not just the spell, actual foresight) and extreme paranoia.


He'll probably be Astral Projected from his personal inaccessible demiplane most of the time, covertly sending out orders through multiple independent networks, none of which know who the boss is. That makes him pretty much untouchable.
I hate making such rulings through DM fiat. Anyways, this is not meant for me to use as the BBEG, the point is to create a character who only technically exists. The fact that they would serve as a really powerful BBEG is just icing on the cake. Another point of this is that they don't NEED to have forsight or paranoia. They can walk right into the middle of the king's throne room, and be perfectly safe. He could hang out in a wizard's study, and no-one will be the wiser.

[Slipperychicken]

I hate making such rulings through DM fiat. Anyways, this is not meant for me to use as the BBEG, the point is to create a character who only technically exists. The fact that they would serve as a really powerful BBEG is just icing on the cake. Another point of this is that they don't NEED to have forsight or paranoia. They can walk right into the middle of the king's throne room, and be perfectly safe. He could hang out in a wizard's study, and no-one will be the wiser.

Ah, I understand the intent now. I originally thought you were trying to make a character like the Shadow Broker from Mass Effect.

[Urpriest]

If you want to be sure you can get around Antimagic Fields you'll want Ex Incorporeality and Ex Invisibility. The latter is harder to get, the only way I can think of at the moment is being a Will-o-Wisp. But that seems a decent villain race, so let's go with that. You can then get Ex Incorporeality from Psion Uncarnate. Immunity to divination, as mentioned, is best achieved by Vecna-Blooded.

Mindsight, Lifesense, and Soulsight depend on your interpretation. If they function like blindsight/blindsense, then use Darkstalker. If they don't, you'll need to be mindless and undead to get past the first two and nothing can save you from the last one. There may be a template somewhere that makes you mindless and undead while keeping most of your other class abilities, but I don't know it off the top of my head. It's almost certainly possible to find a series of templates that will do it though.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Another option is Fiend of Possesion, which can go incorporeal and possess others.

[Mystify]

Another option is Fiend of Possesion, which can go incorporeal and possess others.
Its hard to do anything once you have possessed someone without revealing yourself. It does offer at-will etherealness, but there are easier ways to get that.