Hammer Time!

[NeoSeraphi]

So, I'm building a warblade who's using a minotaur greathammer (MM4), and I want to know what kind of feats and support is out there for a character who uses a bludgeoning weapon? I want to smash so much face, and I want people to notice too.

I'm homebrewing my own discipline based around bludgeoning weapons and Sunder, so I'm not concerned about that, but I know there are at least a few feats out there for a man with a hammer right?

[Hirax]

If you'll be sundering things then the pre req feat of improved sunder in combat brute (Complete Warrior) probably won't be such a big deal. Otherwise I'm assuming you're familiar with knockback and rampaging bull rush? Those were my first instincts, though since rampaging bull rush requires rage that's probably out unless you tweak it. You might also ask if three mountains (Complete Warrior) can be opened up to hammers.

[Togath]

Also dont forget the "impact" weapon enchantment, which acts the same as keen, but for bludgeoning weapons(not a feat, but still a good enchantment to remember about if your using maces or ahmmers).

[Medic!]

Three Mountains from Complete Warrior doesn't cite hammers but seems to hit just about every other 2h bludgeoning weapon, so your DM may approve it. It requires PA, Cleave, Imp Bullrush, and Weapon Focus. If you hit a creature twice in one round with your big nasty bludgeoner they have to make a fort save of 10+ 1/2 your character lvl + str modifier or be nauseated for one round.

Crushing Strike from PHB2 (requires BAB 14, WF, Weapon Specialization and Weapon Mastery grants you a cummulative +1 attack bonus (just says on attack rolls, doesn't specify with what attacks) each time you successfully hit something on a full round attack...until the end of your next turn.

Complete Warrior has a few other hammer related feats but they each require you to dual wield (either a hammer and axe or hammer and sword) and Dungeonscape has Hammer and Piton, which allows you to climb your opponent by hammering pitons into them. Of course you have to dual wield your hammer and the pitons so yeah.

That's about all I know of, sadly.


EDIT: Got beat out on initiative for Three Mountains, but thankfully it was only a surprise round! Also yeah, forgot about the Impact/keen hammer deallio.

[Mystify]

Warblades qualify for fighter feats. That means you could climb the feat tree to crushing strike, which would grant a cummulative +1 to hit every time you hit. Of course, this requires 4 feats, of the weapon focus line, so its rather expensive, and using manuvers you won't get multiple attacks as often, so its probably not a good choice.

There is brutal strike, which requires power attack, and can sicken foes if they fail a fort save. only 1/round, which messes with warblade, but the DC is 10+power attack penalty, which isn't that outstanding.


The hammers are good for sundering. If you have an adamantine greathammer, its even better. Deadly concussion requires improved sunder and ranks in perform percussion, and if you can sunder a foes armor or shield in 1 blow, you can deal equal damage to the enemy as well.

That weapon has a truly Vicious crit, so keen or improved critical is a must for a weapon like that. In fact, its so good at crits that enchantments that key off of crits are actually a statistically good choice.

resounding blow can cower opponents who you crit, assuming they survive.

power critical will give you a +4 to confirm crits. And you definitely want to confirm those crits.

[NeoSeraphi]

Warblades qualify for fighter feats. That means you could climb the feat tree to crushing strike, which would grant a cummulative +1 to hit every time you hit. Of course, this requires 4 feats, of the weapon focus line, so its rather expensive, and using manuvers you won't get multiple attacks as often, so its probably not a good choice.

There is brutal strike, which requires power attack, and can sicken foes if they fail a fort save. only 1/round, which messes with warblade, but the DC is 10+power attack penalty, which isn't that outstanding.


The hammers are good for sundering. If you have an adamantine greathammer, its even better. Deadly concussion requires improved sunder and ranks in perform percussion, and if you can sunder a foes armor or shield in 1 blow, you can deal equal damage to the enemy as well.

That weapon has a truly Vicious crit, so keen or improved critical is a must for a weapon like that. In fact, its so good at crits that enchantments that key off of crits are actually a statistically good choice.

resounding blow can cower opponents who you crit, assuming they survive.

power critical will give you a +4 to confirm crits. And you definitely want to confirm those crits.

I'm a warblade, so I already get my Int mod to confirm crits (my Int is 16 for that very reason).

I thought you couldn't Sunder armor? But the feat does say if you Sunder armor...

[Hirax]

Sadly you're right:

"You can’t sunder armor worn by another character." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#sunder)

You could sunder unattended armor I guess? Or make an argument that the feat saying you can sunder armor is a case of specific trumping general. What feat talks about sundering armor?

[NeoSeraphi]

Sadly you're right:

"You can’t sunder armor worn by another character." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#sunder)

You could sunder unattended armor I guess? Or make an argument that the feat saying you can sunder armor is a case of specific trumping general. What feat talks about sundering armor?

Deadly Concussion. It says "If you make a Special Sunder attempt to sunder armor or if you Sunder a shield"

[Hirax]

Huh. One of combat brute's abilities is very similar, but if your DM rules that concussion let's you destroy armor I'd say that's the better option. The required 6 perform (percussion) ranks for deadly concussion are amusing, too, to say the least. :smallbiggrin:

[Mystify]

looking at the tables for armour and materials, if they are only using iron amour, the hardness is 10. Which means that it has to be enchanted all the way to +5 to get to hardness 20, which is what you need for adamantine to not pentrate it.
You can then add in the find flaw feat, which reduces hardness by 1 point for each point of power attack. You can use that to negate the hardness down to the point where your adamantine can pierce the rest.

Now for the "destroy in 1 hit" part.

its hp is the armour bonus x5. so a +8 for full plate, and you only need a 40 point hit to destroy it in 1 blow. However, the enchantment also adds hp, so a +5 would have 90 hp. Thats doable, but it takes some effort. If you do sunder their +5 fullplate armour, their AC will plummet, and you can easily take them apart.

I'm not sure what maneuver's warblades have for sundering. It may be worth looking into.

[NeoSeraphi]

looking at the tables for armour and materials, if they are only using iron amour, the hardness is 10. Which means that it has to be enchanted all the way to +5 to get to hardness 20, which is what you need for adamantine to not pentrate it.
You can then add in the find flaw feat, which reduces hardness by 1 point for each point of power attack. You can use that to negate the hardness down to the point where your adamantine can pierce the rest.

Now for the "destroy in 1 hit" part.

its hp is the armour bonus x5. so a +8 for full plate, and you only need a 40 point hit to destroy it in 1 blow. However, the enchantment also adds hp, so a +5 would have 90 hp. Thats doable, but it takes some effort. If you do sunder their +5 fullplate armour, their AC will plummet, and you can easily take them apart.

I'm not sure what maneuver's warblades have for sundering. It may be worth looking into.

That's all well and good, but it still says, in plain English in the Sunder section of the SRD: "You cannot Sunder armor worn by another character".

[Mystify]

That's all well and good, but it still says, in plain English in the Sunder section of the SRD: "You cannot Sunder armor worn by another character".
Then explain the clause in deadly concussion.

[NeoSeraphi]

Then explain the clause in deadly concussion.

Exactly, I don't understand. It says "Special Sunder attack on armor". Is there some section in Dragon 333 about Sundering armor?

[Mystify]

Exactly, I don't understand. It says "Special Sunder attack on armor". Is there some section in Dragon 333 about Sundering armor?

I don't see one. Close quarters defense offers bonuses against people sundering your armor.

The player's handbook says that armor and sheilds can take damage from some kinds of attacks, and refers to sunder. Sunder then says you can't sunder armour. So even the players handbook seems slightly confused on the issue, and the dragon magazines are even more confused. So, the player's handbook does have the very clear statement saying "you can't", and the other things are merely implying you can, or saying what would happen if you do it, without actually saying you can. I think the only reaonable conclusion is the writer of the feat was confused.


Ok, lets say you are only striking the sheild, which is legal to do. That is easy to sunder through in 1 hit, so you can get full damage to the bearer in the process.

You can then add the combat brute feat, one of its abilities is the sundering cleave. So if you sunder the shield, you get an additional attack at full bonus. Now you get to smash their shield, deal full damage to them, and get a free attack out of the deal.

[NeoSeraphi]

I don't see one. Close quarters defense offers bonuses against people sundering your armor.

The player's handbook says that armor and sheilds can take damage from some kinds of attacks, and refers to sunder. Sunder then says you can't sunder armour. So even the players handbook seems slightly confused on the issue, and the dragon magazines are even more confused. So, the player's handbook does have the very clear statement saying "you can't", and the other things are merely implying you can, or saying what would happen if you do it, without actually saying you can. I think the only reaonable conclusion is the writer of the feat was confused.


Ok, lets say you are only striking the sheild, which is legal to do. That is easy to sunder through in 1 hit, so you can get full damage to the bearer in the process.

You can then add the combat brute feat, one of its abilities is the sundering cleave. So if you sunder the shield, you get an additional attack at full bonus. Now you get to smash their shield, deal full damage to them, and get a free attack out of the deal.

Yeah, and that's great, but I don't know how often shields will come up (and the DM could just easily take shields out of the game if it becomes a problem). Then I'm left with two wasted feat slots...I won't be taking Improved Bull Rush (which means I won't be able to use Advancing Blows unless I can avoid the AoOs) and I certainly don't need more damage than I'm already dishing out, so Momentum Swing is kind of..meh.

[Cieyrin]

Yeah, and that's great, but I don't know how often shields will come up (and the DM could just easily take shields out of the game if it becomes a problem). Then I'm left with two wasted feat slots...I won't be taking Improved Bull Rush (which means I won't be able to use Advancing Blows unless I can avoid the AoOs) and I certainly don't need more damage than I'm already dishing out, so Momentum Swing is kind of..meh.

Momentum Swing is for the 2nd round, anyways, so it's for after you charge and then smash someone in the face with your oversized mass of iron.

I wouldn't bother with Deadly Percussion since Perform isn't a class skill, so you couldn't take it till 9th at the earliest, when you have other things you could be doing with those feat slots. Combat Brute is still nice, since it works on anything you'd normally be sundering, along with Momentum Swing and occasionally Advancing Blows. At least you'll be able to use 2, as opposed to the one of Shock Trooper.

[Metahuman1]

I'd advise looking at Stone Dragon for a primary school if your gonna do the Sunder thing. Mountain Hammer Martial Maneuver let's you Bypass both an opponents DR And an objects Hardness! Meaning you only have to take a ready a maneuver and you don't need to worry about anything aside form hitting the target and having the damage output.

Impact is good. I believe if you glance through the Book of Vile Darkness though, you will find that they have a weapon property that stacks with Improved Crit. I might be misremembering that though, so if someone else want's to chime in with either "No, didn't quite work that way," or "No, wrong book, it's in here in stead." Feel free.

Lastly, don't forget, Either a caster or a magic Item to get the effect of Greater Mighty Wallop is amazing for when your DPR needs to be outright insane. Seriously, that spell can make a MONK almost playable in combat. Let along a THF Warblade.

[Mystify]

I'd advise looking at Stone Dragon for a primary school if your gonna do the Sunder thing. Mountain Hammer Martial Maneuver let's you Bypass both an opponents DR And an objects Hardness! Meaning you only have to take a ready a maneuver and you don't need to worry about anything aside form hitting the target and having the damage output.

Impact is good. I believe if you glance through the Book of Vile Darkness though, you will find that they have a weapon property that stacks with Improved Crit. I might be misremembering that though, so if someone else want's to chime in with either "No, didn't quite work that way," or "No, wrong book, it's in here in stead." Feel free.

Lastly, don't forget, Either a caster or a magic Item to get the effect of Greater Mighty Wallop is amazing for when your DPR needs to be outright insane. Seriously, that spell can make a MONK almost playable in combat. Let along a THF Warblade.

Its a class ability. Disciple of dispater. When using an iron or steel weapon, your threat range doubles, then triples, and explicitly stacks with improved crit.
So we have a 2 wide crit range, doubled to 4, and tripled to 12. Thats an 8-20/x4 crit.... Who wrote that ability? they need to be slapped.

Greater mighty wallop, good call. Esp. on a d12 weapon. It will last you all day, too.

[Cieyrin]

Its a class ability. Disciple of dispater. When using an iron or steel weapon, your threat range doubles, then triples, and explicitly stacks with improved crit.
So we have a 2 wide crit range, doubled to 4, and tripled to 12. Thats an 8-20/x4 crit.... Who wrote that ability? they need to be slapped.

Greater mighty wallop, good call. Esp. on a d12 weapon. It will last you all day, too.

BoVD is a 3.0 book, back when Improved Critical and Keen stacked and Vorpal went off when you had a crit threat. Things are somewhat more sane now, at least on that front.

[Hiro Protagonest]

BoVD is a 3.0 book, back when Improved Critical and Keen stacked and Vorpal went off when you had a crit threat. Things are somewhat more sane now, at least on that front.

Vorpal went off on a crit threat? I guess back then it was actually worth the +5. Seriously, I'd take speed over vorpal any day of the week even if they cost the same.

[Cieyrin]

Vorpal went off on a crit threat? I guess back then it was actually worth the +5. Seriously, I'd take speed over vorpal any day of the week even if they cost the same.

Yes, in 3.0 Vorpal worked off crit threat, so people ran around with Keen Vorpal Scimitars and Improved Critical(Scimitar) to lop off heads on a 12-20, not including Disciple of Dispater shenanigans. Also when the Bag of Snails trick worked, when you'd use Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack to get a stupid amount of cleaves on a target of your choice. 3.0 was much wilder times. :smalltongue:

[Metahuman1]

3.0 was when an Arcane Archer was a valid build option.

Was when Vorporal was worth being a +5 enchantment to put on a weapon, instead of maybe being worth a +3 if you want to be Stingy or a +2 if you want to balance it.

And when Crit Fishing wasn't a bad combat tactic.


Alas, 3.5 had this idea that Melee just shouldn't have nice things right up till they came out with Tome of Battle, and by then they'd brainwashed so many.

Personally, sometimes I feel like I'd enjoy a game with certain 3.0 rules ported back.



Edit: Mystify: Someone who wanted to give Melee something nice?

[NeoSeraphi]

Can't get a greater mighty wallop. That's a Sor/Wiz and Druid only spell, right? No Sorcerers, Wizards, or Druids in the world to cast it for me.

Eh, I might as well take Combat Brute. If I'm going to niche myself, I'm going to niche myself right! And I'm begging my DM to let me Sunder armor too. My argument was


Oasys, will you let me Sunder armor? It seems really stupid that I can waste my actions breaking shields or weapons but not armor. Won't you please let me waste my actions I could otherwise use to kill monsters and instead use to enjoy destroying potential party loot?

That's sure to get a DM to agree with you, right?

[Cieyrin]

Can't get a greater mighty wallop. That's a Sor/Wiz and Druid only spell, right? No Sorcerers, Wizards, or Druids in the world to cast it for me.

Eh, I might as well take Combat Brute. If I'm going to niche myself, I'm going to niche myself right! And I'm begging my DM to let me Sunder armor too. My argument was



That's sure to get a DM to agree with you, right?

I think you have a funny way of persuading. I'd just write 'Diplomacy' on the side of your hammer and knock some heads till you get what you want. (You have some Intimidate, right? :smallwink:)

As for GMWallop, I think it's just Wiz/Sor, Druids get Shillelagh chain and Clerics/Pallys have to deal with Earth Hammer, from Races of Stone. Makes a weapon considered to be one size larger, Adamantine and Bludgeoning, regardless of original damage type, for a short time. Cast as a swift and Pally 3/Cleric 5, I believe. Good stuff.

[kardar233]

Unfortunately, I lost the post I was going to make, but here's the gist of it:

Take Crushing Strike (PHBII, IIRC).
Take Avalanche of Blades.
Take Stormguard Warrior.
Additional bonuses might be Raging Mongoose, Time Stands Still, and Aura of Perfect Order, but those are the core. Karmic Strike/Rob's Gambit helps with potential accuracy problems.

Turn 1: Initiate Avalanche of Blades. Using Stormguard Warrior's ability, make only touch attacks. Crushing Strike gives you a +1 to hit on each consecutive attack, reducing the Avalanche penalty to -3. Hitting touch AC is a breeze on most monsters, so you'll get a ton of hits.

(Here in between, if you're using Karmic Strike or similar, give up your AoOs to get bonuses with Stormguard.)

Turn 2: Make as many attacks as possible. I recommend TSS+RM. Laugh as all the bonus damage you piled up last round bludgeons them into submission. Try increasing your threat range so you can quadruple (!!!) all that bonus damage on a crit.

Turn 3: ???

Turn 4: Profit.


I liked the "Diplomacy" idea. Reminds me of the time I played a sword and pistol wielder, who called his weapons Honor and Reason.

[Mystify]

If there are no sorc/wizards in the world, what is the status of magic items?

[NeoSeraphi]

If there are no sorc/wizards in the world, what is the status of magic items?

Dunno. I think adepts, bards, paladins and rangers all exist, so there should be a few magic items about. We're starting at level 7 and we're not allowed to purchase any magic items with a caster level above 5.

[Metahuman1]

You wouldn't per chance have someone in this group who get's on this site under the name Candycorn, would you?

I have a reason to ask.

And BTW: There is a 3.5 BoVD floating around somewhere.

I had a couple of other suggestions but no Sorcerers or Wizards in the world nerfs them out of existence.

[NeoSeraphi]

You wouldn't per chance have someone in this group who get's on this site under the name Candycorn, would you?

I have a reason to ask.

And BTW: There is a 3.5 BoVD floating around somewhere.

I had a couple of other suggestions but no Sorcerers or Wizards in the world nerfs them out of existence.

No. We're all doing this low-magic game under agreement that it makes sense with Tolkien's setting. (We're actually going to play the Fellowship of the Ring, just with our own characters. So Gandalf is like the ceiling)

[Metahuman1]

Oh! Ok, now it adds up.

Yeah, above suggestions of mine that actually work are probably about as far as you want to go with this then. Though I would suggest if your gonna do a feat path that has you grabbing Exotic weapons proficiency and Weapons Focus that it might not be a bad idea to drop 3 skill ranks in Craft: Weapons Making and nab one level of Exotic Weapons Master for x2 Str damage on a hit.

Um, this wouldn't per chance be an E6/E8/E10 game would it?

[NeoSeraphi]

Oh! Ok, now it adds up.

Yeah, above suggestions of mine that actually work are probably about as far as you want to go with this then. Though I would suggest if your gonna do a feat path that has you grabbing Exotic weapons proficiency and Weapons Focus that it might not be a bad idea to drop 3 skill ranks in Craft: Weapons Making and nab one level of Exotic Weapons Master for x2 Str damage on a hit.

Um, this wouldn't per chance be an E6/E8/E10 game would it?

I already homebrewed my own feat for free x2 Str damage on a hit, which my DM accepted, thankfully.

It's a full level 20 game.

[Igneel]

Seeing as how you pretty much already got all the suggestions on at least feats and typical weapon enhancements you can put on your weapon, my 2 copper pieces won't matter much, but its something for the 'sundering enemy armor' bit earlier. Albeit its not a good enhancement, I personally have a special place in my heart for Rusting [Shining South, +1 ability]. The biggest snags is the amount of magic allowed in your world, whether the Dm will allow a technically 3.0 book, and finding a material to make your hammer out of that is legal for the enhancement. Since I don't know if adamantine is considered a ferrous metal [I don't hear about adamantine armor or weapons being rusted very often] it might be an interesting weapon ability to look into.

Rusting enchantment [Shining South, pg 54, +1]
A rusting weapon is never constructed of any iron parts, but must be built of wood, bone, stone, or other nonferrous materials. When it is employed, it can cause metal objects with which it comes into contract to quickly rust. A wearer of a ferrous armor or shield that is struck by a rusting weapon must make a DC 16 Fort saving throw or the item loses 1 point of armor bonus-shields are struck first. Once an item loses its entire armor bonus, it falls to pieces, ruined. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted confer the rusting ability upon their ammunition.

Again, those are my 2 copper pieces I can offer of the top of my head. Hope it gives you some ideas.

[Cieyrin]

The biggest snags is the amount of magic allowed in your world, whether the Dm will allow a technically 3.0 book, and finding a material to make your hammer out of that is legal for the enhancement. Since I don't know if adamantine is considered a ferrous metal [I don't hear about adamantine armor or weapons being rusted very often] it might be an interesting weapon ability to look into..

My understanding is adamantine is a ferrous metal, due to it being based on meteoric iron, typically a mix of nickel and iron. Mithral is some silver-aluminum alloy and thus not ferrous. Cold Iron obviously is ferrous and alchemical silver is just plating on a forged steel weapon, so ferrous, though whether you have to get through the plating first is necessary to rust it or not, I do not know. That's a DM matter.

[Igneel]

My understanding is adamantine is a ferrous metal, due to it being based on meteoric iron, typically a mix of nickel and iron. Mithral is some silver-aluminum alloy and thus not ferrous. Cold Iron obviously is ferrous and alchemical silver is just plating on a forged steel weapon, so ferrous, though whether you have to get through the plating first is necessary to rust it or not, I do not know. That's a DM matter.
Makes sense I suppose.

Now I'm wondering about the Glassteel special material [Races of Faerun/Champions of Valor] since it acts like a adamantine and mithral but is supposedly made of a special glass. Something just tickles my funny bone at the thought of a person that goes around sundering/destroying things with a glass-like hammer.

[Cieyrin]

Makes sense I suppose.

Now I'm wondering about the Glassteel special material [Races of Faerun/Champions of Valor] since it acts like a adamantine and mithral but is supposedly made of a special glass. Something just tickles my funny bone at the thought of a person that goes around sundering/destroying things with a glass-like hammer.

That is a weird one, though I'd lean towards non-ferrous, since it's basically magic-treated glass.