Old-school multiclassing in 3.5?

[Kholai]

Would the old AD&D multiclassing be a viable alternative to the current level-by-level advancement that 3.5 uses?

More specifically I was thinking:

Dual Class:
No prestige classes.
Two base classes only, 1-20 no changing.
Functions similarly to a gestalt.
Exp Adjustment: -50% (Alternatively a +2 LA?)

Half-Elf Triple Class:
No prestige classes.
Three base classes only, 1-20 no changing.
Functions similarly to a tristalt.
Exp Adjustment: -66% (Alternatively a +3 LA?)

Single Class:
1 or 2 prestige classes.
Cross-class skills are 1/rank with the standard cross-class skill cap.

Any thoughts? Workable, needs work, or fundamentally won't balance right?

[Manateee]

I think the Dual class thing would work fairly well for levels 2-7, but once its users are more than a whole spell level behind, you'd have the Mystic Theurge situation, but without even the skills or hit dice-related benefits for the Dual-classer. The triple-classed characters would just have a horrible time from level 6 onward, without some dedicated min-maxing.

I think it would be easier to just play a gestalt game. That way, a player who wants to represent a generic archetype could stick to related classes and get good at whatever their specialization is, and someone wanting to play a multiconcept character can just spread their resources around.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Just use regular multiclassing. There are dual-progression PrCs for the concepts that need them. If you really want dual-progression from the start, you can do something like:

fighter/wizard level 1, you either have +1 BAB and d6 hit die, or +0 BAB and d8 hit die, with one less 1st level spell slot (so 0 plus anything from high intelligence or specialization) and either fighter or wizard bonus feat, then when you get to level 2, you're treated as a fighter 1/wizard 1 (or the other way around, if you want different skills to be maxed out but don't need the maxed d10 hit die).

Another example would barbarian/cleric level 1. You either have d10 hit die and +1 BAB, or d12 hit die and +0 BAB, and you have one less 1st level spell (so domain slot plus any spell slots from high wisdom). You can also have Rage, Fast Movement, or Turn Undead.

A third example is rogue/fighter. You can have d8 hit die and +1 BAB, with either a bonus feat or sneak attack, with 4+int skill points, or +0 BAB with 6+int skill points.

[gkathellar]

Let's check. Going by the EXP-reduction figures you propose:

{table=head]Exp Earned|Single-class level|Double-class level|Triple-class level
0|1|1/1|1/1/1
1,000|2|1/1|1/1/1
3,000|3|2/2|2/2/2
6,000|4|3/3|2/2/2
10,000|5|3/3|3/3/3
15,000|6|4/4|3/3/3
21,000|7|5/5|4/4/4
28,000|8|5/5|4/4/4
36,000|9|6/6|5/5/5
45,000|10|7/7|6/6/6
55,000|11|7/7|6/6/6
66,000|12|8/8|7/7/7
78,000|13|9/9|7/7/7
91,000|14|10/10|8/8/8
105,000|15|10/10|8/8/8
120,000|16|11/11|9/9/9
136,000|17|12/12|10/10/10
153,000|18|12/12|10/10/10
171,000|19|13/13|11/11/11
180,000|20|13/13|11/11/11[/table]

So: Double and Triple scale with each other relatively well above 15,000 or so Exp, but they don't scale with the normal progression at all — and they fall even farther behind because they don't get access to any cool prestige classes.

The reason this style of multiclassing worked back in 2E was that Exp requirements doubled every level or so, up to a certain point — so you were never more than one, two, three levels behind.

[Chronos]

Dual-classing (or multi-classing; they weren't the same thing) in AD&D was a horrible, convoluted mess, and that was even in a system designed for it. Why on Earth would you want to replace D20's sane multiclassing with that?

[onemorelurker]

Would this work better for an E6 game? That way, multiclassed characters wouldn't lose out so hard on prestige classes, nor would they ever be more than one level of spells behind.

[Manateee]

You could also just homebrew "dualclassed" classes by averaging class chassis and slowing class features to a 2/3 rate.

For example, a fighter|psion could run off a 3/4 BA framework, gain feats every 3 levels, gain powers up to 6th level and grow a mustache so people could tell it from the PsyWarrior at parties.

[Hiro Protagonest]

For example, a fighter|psion could run off a 3/4 BA framework, gain feats every 3 levels, gain powers up to 6th level and grow a mustache so people could tell it from the PsyWarrior at parties.

Make sure to name it the Force-Sensitive.

[navar100]

Why not use gestalt from Unearthed Arcana?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Why not use gestalt from Unearthed Arcana?

Bevause he's trying to balance it with non-gestalt.

[Agrippa]

Could this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228954) multiclassing version of mine work?

[Kholai]

Thanks for the replies, some helpful comments here.

I was wondering if Level Adjustment would be the way to go instead of the Exp penalty, but it doesn't really work for a Half-Elf triple-class, which would only be really viable at level 5 and up, and even then wouldn't mesh too well.

What about a 20%/40% exp reduction, same as a two/three class uneven multiclass?


{table=head]Exp Earned|Single-class level|Double-class level|Triple-class level
0|1|1/1|1/1/1
1,000|2|1/1|1/1/1
3,000|3|2/2|2/2/2
6,000|4|3/3|3/3/3
10,000|5|4/4|4/4/4
15,000|6|5/5|4/4/4
21,000|7|6/6|5/5/5
28,000|8|7/7|6/6/6
36,000|9|8/8|7/7/7
45,000|10|9/9|7/7/7
55,000|11|9/9|8/8/8
66,000|12|10/10|9/9/9
78,000|13|11/11|10/10/10
91,000|14|12/12|10/10/10
105,000|15|13/13|11/11/11
120,000|16|14/14|12/12/12
136,000|17|15/15|13/13/13
153,000|18|16/16|14/14/14
171,000|19|17/17|14/14/14
180,000|20|17/17|15/15/15[/table]

Not shown: The moderately wonky gaining of levels for Dual and Triple classes.
(Thanks for the table to steal gkathellar!)

Going with Ranger/Cleric, Fighter/Rogue/Wizard

17 BAB, 120 Skill Points, 8+16D8 HP + Con for the dual class, plus level 9 divine spells at 20.
15 BAB, 120 Skill Points, 10+14D10 HP + Con for the triple class, plus level 8 arcane spells at 20. A decent "triple threat" I'd say?

Meanwhile, a Mystic Theurge Wizard/Cleric would be: 12 BAB, Level 9 Divine and Level 9 Arcane spells with 8+16D8 HP + Con.

It seems a lot more workable to me, but any thoughts on this modification?

As for why don't I just go regular level-by-level multiclass or regular gestalt? Well there's quite a few reasons actually:

1) Design Exercise.
It's an interesting alternative I'd like to flesh out. I could homebrew the entire system from scratch, or use the , but finding a nice balance with an already existing system like the gestalt rules would be easier, and means I don't have to do it on a class-by-class basis, or remember a variable levelling system.

2) Simplicity.
I'm decent enough to pull it off, but Tetris levelling in 3.5 is awkward and clunky. You don't improve your spellcasting at all for two levels until you qualify for PrC X, where you start shooting up again, then stalls for a level as you get into PrC Y, then catches up.

I want something that works from level 1-"20", that allows gradual, constant improvement, and uses base classes only, without a shopping list of prerequisite feats or skills to boot.
Hopefully something that also is robust enough to handle the various combinations.

3) Flavour
Whilst tetris levelling for the optimum combination, all these would-be warrior-wizards are picking up a shopping list of random abilities from the thematic classes they're dipping into, Abjurant Phoenix Chords ring any bells? It's not exactly unique to gish-building either.

And at at least one level of a particular build, you're probably not a Swordmage at all. You're a mage, or a fighter, not both.

On the flipside, how many people look at Prestige Classes as yet more tetris pieces? How many classes are defined by a single class feature or spell progression, with everything else being gravy?

I want something flavour-neutral, that doesn't need a bland prestige class to operate, and allows prestige classes to actually be something awesome. I liked the 4e idea of having a "path" or whatnot that you flow into at level 10, and I liked the "kits" I ran across playing Baldur's Gate where being single classed let you be a specialist with your own unique, cool toys.

4) Give Half-Elves something.

Come on, these guys seriously need a break. Given the racial balance, I'd be borderline tempted to make dual-classing a non-human only toy as well...


In short, I want Single Class + Cool Unique Toys to balance out against a Multiclass where the Cool Unique Toy is their versatility.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/viktyr-l-korimir-s-house-rules-lab/vlk-multiclassing

While you're there, check out the class options page, too.

[Flickerdart]

Losing 9th level spells isn't worth having the option of being bad at two other classes.

[Kholai]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/viktyr-l-korimir-s-house-rules-lab/vlk-multiclassing

While you're there, check out the class options page, too.

Looks interesting, I see you've got the old 2e dual-classing there. It looks a lot grander in scale than I was going with, but I may well give it a try, at least on the lower factors, thanks.



Losing 9th level spells isn't worth having the option of being bad at two other classes.

You're saying: Trapfinding, Improved Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, 8D6 +2 Str Sneak, eight bonus fighter feats, Medium BAB, all medium saves (+9/+9/+9), and an extra 114 skill points aren't worth losing access to level 9 spells and five caster levels.

Now I may agree with you, but that's less an indictment of multiclassing than a signpost that 9th level spells are sort of excessive. I wouldn't necessarily agree that you're particularly "bad" at two other classes though. You have the same BAB as a rogue at 20th would expect, but with a lot more bonus feats and wizard utility spells.