Redcloak's Possible Backup Plan?

[Tergon]

I hope this hasn't been brought up elsewhere; it might be, I don't know, and I apologise if that's the case. But still!

Something pretty significant occured to me recently. Ever since Redcloak revealed that only the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle knows the ritual of the Snarl (Panel #7 here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0829.html)), he's pretty much been given Immortality Insurance. Nobody's getting any hot Snarl-On-Reality action without Redcloak's help. Even if he's killed and the Crimson Mantle is passed on, it won't matter; the next Bearer, by definition, must be a Goblin Priest of the Dark One in order to learn the ritual of the Snarl. Which means the new bearer would almost certainly not be any more willing to betray his God and his people than Redcloak.

So, having established that Redcloak is a vital part of the plan, and that he might not be that fond of Xykon, the question becomes: is Xykon vital?
To be sure, Xykon's powerful and he's a useful ally. But then so was Tsukiko, and the second she became less than useful, Redcloak disposed of her with only a second of hesitation - just enough hesitation to gloat in her face. Now, other threads are discussing whether Redcloak has the stones to take down Xykon, and I won't rehash that here. Suffice to say that Redcloak's fake phylactory suggests he wants the insurance over Xykon. And I'm willing to bet that, given the chance to plan it out properly, he could get the edge over ol' Bones. Especially with a legion or two of Goblins to back him up.
So, Xykon being powerful isn't the main reason he's useful. No, the main reason he's useful is that he's an Arcane spellcaster, and can be (theoretically) manipulated into handing control of the Snarl to the Dark One on a proverbial silver platter. If Redcloak ever decided that Xykon was too much bother, and he was able to take the Lich down, he'd need another Arcane caster just waiting in the wings.

Read panel #5 here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) Keep in mind that Redcloak is, explicitly, the only living being who could possibly know the ritual. Now, Nale may talk a good game, but I'm willing to bet that if anyone other than Tarquin could out-think everyone's favourite Evil Twin, it's Redcloak. He'd just have to imply that the ritual would ruin Elan's day, and Nale would be interested. Throw in a carefully-phrased promise that Tarquin's empire would crumble (technically true), and I almost think that'd be enough.

So. Nale-Redcloak teamup. Does anyone else think it's at all likely? And if so... on a scale of 1-10, how screwed would that leave our heroes?

[meep]

My thought is that it could be V who takes Xykon's place, while under the control of the IFCC.

Now, Redcloak probably does not know about V's deal as of yet, as there has been contact with the Linear Guild, a message could come to Redcloak via Sabine.

So it wouldn't be a backup plan that Redcloak already has, but something that could come out before the end. Redcloak can think quickly when he needs to.

I could see Roy destroying Xykon, at which point Redcloak destroys the phylactery (thus destroying Xykon for good), and then V gets taken over by the IFCC for however much time they have. At which point -- gate ritual involving Redcloak & V.

[asphias]

though, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html , they don't want a victory for redcloak. they just want conflict.

[Tergon]

Perhaps that's the idea, then? The IFCC take control of V, perhaps putting another, involuntary, Soul Bind on her to increase her power - and thowing her headfirst at Redcloak and whichever Arcane caster he's allied with in an attempt to disrupt the ritual. Could be an effective last-resort tactic on their part.

Either way, that's multiple possibilities. Redcloak is a lock for the ritual (or, to be fair, whoever his successor may be as the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, if it comes to that). Xykon is the current choice for the role of Arcane Caster, but he may not be a certainty. Nale and V would be next in line, out of the established characters. Beyond them... Zz'dtri and Elan are technically capable, though I doubt they'd get the job unless Redcloak managed to mind-control them into doing it as a last resort. Have I missed anyone?

We know Redcloak's smart enough to have thought it out - if it turns out that Xykon is unable or unwilling to complete the Ritual, you just know that Redcloak's got a Plan B. Hell, I'd be surprised if he doesn't go all the way up to plan R. Nale's strongly implied that he's worked with Redcloak in the past, and that they're on good enough terms that Redcloak might actually be interested in working with him again. Add that to Nale's strangely detailed knowledge of the Gates and the Ritual of the Snarl... I have to think he's a likely candidate.

[King of Nowhere]

We know from start of darkness that to perform the ritual are needed a strong divine caster and a strong arcane caster. by the time reedcloak said that, he was level 9 or 10, so we can assume level 10 would be high enough.
Is nale a level 10 arcane caster? I doubt it, with all his multiclassing. I don't think he could perform the ritual.
Of course, if rich wanted the 7 or 8 levels nale has in sorcerer to suffice for the ritual, it would be so.
V is surely powerful enough to perform the ritual, but i don't see it happpening. the ifcc has no interest in the ritual being completed, and it take WAY more time than the 40 minutes of control they have.

Anyway, xykon is very valuable to redcloak because of his power. Without xykon, there would have been no way redcloak could have ever defeated lirian or dorukan or soon, and the defences to the other two gates are likely epic challenges too. redcloak will not substitute xykon unlewss he really, really has to. It's not just a matter of having the balls for it or the power to kill him.

[ScubaGoomba]

I had actually thought about Nale as an alternate a few days ago; it would work quite well, what with his complete arrogance and desire to always come out on top. Nale would be able to ruin his father and his brother in one fell swoop. How great would that be for him? Nale's also generally incompetent enough to be no threat to Redcloak should he decide to go rogue.
...and this one is total garbage, but fun speculation.
I think it's also fair to point out that the Order and LG probably think Redcloak is just a meek schmuck working as Xykon's right-hand. Redcloak could easily use this to manipulate people onto his side, namely Elan. Play off of Xykon, saying he's doing something with the ritual and has found a new Divine caster to replace him, if they manage to complete the ritual before Xykon does then they can prevent the world from being obliterated, etc. etc.

[thereaper]

You're missing half the point of Redcloak's character. He suffers from a pathological version of the sunk costs fallacy. He has committed untold horrors against his own people for the purpose of protecting his alliance with Xykon. For him to admit that Xykon is not essential would mean admitting that so many of his people died for nothing. Redcloak will never admit that.

[LuPuWei]

I think it's also fair to point out that the Order and LG probably think Redcloak is just a meek schmuck working as Xykon's right-hand.

The Order may no longer be as dismissive of Redcloak, after the time Haley's spent in Azure City leading the resistance. She's probably heard about Redcloak's contributions to the Azure city war and the vandalized giant banner of Redcloak hanging in the Resistance's Lair suggests they are at least dimly aware of his significance. Also, Thahn knew to retreat rather than fight.

I'd also like to point out, from the SoD we know:

Redcloak's tried separating from Xykon before, and it didn't work very well. He'd be better prepared this time, but it's still something to consider.

Edit:


You're missing half the point of Redcloak's character. He suffers from a pathological version of the sunk costs fallacy. He has committed untold horrors against his own people for the purpose of protecting his alliance with Xykon. For him to admit that Xykon is not essential would mean admitting that so many of his people died for nothing. Redcloak will never admit that.

Of course, this is also correct... :smallsmile:

[dps]

My thought is that it could be V who takes Xykon's place, while under the control of the IFCC.

Now, Redcloak probably does not know about V's deal as of yet, as there has been contact with the Linear Guild, a message could come to Redcloak via Sabine.

So it wouldn't be a backup plan that Redcloak already has, but something that could come out before the end. Redcloak can think quickly when he needs to.

I could see Roy destroying Xykon, at which point Redcloak destroys the phylactery (thus destroying Xykon for good), and then V gets taken over by the IFCC for however much time they have. At which point -- gate ritual involving Redcloak & V.

I suggested in another thread that V would take Xykon's place, but not under the influence of the IFCC.

I don't think that either Nale or Elan would be able to cast the ritual, but since we don't know exactly what level you'd have to be to cast the arcane half, we can't say for sure.

[Tergon]

You're missing half the point of Redcloak's character. He suffers from a pathological version of the sunk costs fallacy. He has committed untold horrors against his own people for the purpose of protecting his alliance with Xykon. For him to admit that Xykon is not essential would mean admitting that so many of his people died for nothing. Redcloak will never admit that.

I'd agree with you, without hesitation, except for one thing. Redcloak was willing to sacrifice anything - himself, his brother, throw good lives after bad - in his conviction that it's worth it in the long run. That when he wins, it'll have been for the greater good. That he's not a monster... except that was the Redcloak we knew who had nothing. No family, no friends, just a plan from a God who didn't care if he lived so long as he succeeded, and an overbearing Lich who didn't care if he did either so long as Xykon got what he wanted. Redcloak then was a man (well, Goblin) with literally nothing left to lose, and an entire universe to gain.
Redcloak is no longer that person.
Now he has the entire Nation of Gobbotopia. He's got tens of thousands of Goblins around the world who see him as their leader, their saviour, the Prophet of their God. The one who destroyed the hated Paladins, claimed victory, orgainsed alliance and trade with other nations, and turned Goblins from a race of evil monsters into a proper civilisation.

Maybe I'm projecting, here. But... well, I just can't see Redcloak as being willing to throw that away. It's his Ultimate Backup plan - even if it all fails, he falls, the Gates are left sealed and the Snarl never released, he has saved his people. He's done what he dedicated his life to doing. And I think he'd quite willingly lay down his life to protect his people. But, and I'm very sure of this, he'd be much more willing to lay down Xykon's life first.


And as for Nale being under-levelled to cast the Ritual... well, we don't know what level he is. And if it comes to it, I'm sure Redcloak has a way to buff Nale's power level - either with spells, items, a soul splice, or even good old-fashioned power levelling - enough to make him up to the task.
I mean, Nale knows about the ritual somehow, and he explicitly says he worked with the guy who can perform it. Assuming he's neither lying nor misinformed (and though it's possible, I don't think he's either), the only being in existence short of the Dark One himself who Nale could be talking about is Redcloak.
Hell, it even explains why the IFCC have taken so much interest in Nale that they assigned Sabine to stay close to him. They don't want Redcloak to pull it off and complete the Ritual any more than the rest of reality does. If Xykon figures out he's being manipulated, and they have a way to neutralize Redcloak's #2 choice, the IFCC have a better chance of stopping him than any of the heroes do.