No Fly Zone.

[Draig]

Ok so in my current campaign (it has been lasting a while) one of the PC's was given permission to be a warlock. I admit as a DM I should have fully thought this through but I skimmed his sheet and have only recently realized my mistake. The PC in question is using the warlocks ability to cast unlimited incantations and is wreaking a sort of in game havoc on his own party.

Examples: Warlock snatches an item he knows was supposed to be given for another player and quickly flies away (with fly incantation).

In middle of a serious discussion with gate guards the warlock takes flight, alarming the guards, and when asked to come down he flies off leaving the party to explain.

I know dnd is supposed to be fun for all players and the team has asked me numerous times, as dm, if I could show him that his "shoot first, fly away" attitude isn't always good.

So my question to the playground is, What are some good ways to either cancel out a warlock's flying ability or what are some situations that would prohibit a warlock from flying the group into hot water.

[onemorelurker]

Ok so in my current campaign (it has been lasting a while) one of the PC's was given permission to be a warlock. I admit as a DM I should have fully thought this through but I skimmed his sheet and have only recently realized my mistake. The PC in question is using the warlocks ability to cast unlimited incantations and is wreaking a sort of in game havoc on his own party.

Examples: Warlock snatches an item he knows was supposed to be given for another player and quickly flies away (with fly incantation).

In middle of a serious discussion with gate guards the warlock takes flight, alarming the guards, and when asked to come down he flies off leaving the party to explain.

I know dnd is supposed to be fun for all players and the team has asked me numerous times, as dm, if I could show him that his "shoot first, fly away" attitude isn't always good.

So my question to the playground is, What are some good ways to either cancel out a warlock's flying ability or what are some situations that would prohibit a warlock from flying the group into hot water.

This sounds less like "letting this player play a warlock is the problem," and more like "this player is the problem." If a player wants to act like a jerk, then restricting his class choice isn't going to stop him from doing so.

As the DM, you need to explain to this character, out of game, that his in-game attitude is preventing the rest of the group from having fun. I would personally tell him to shape up or ship out, because I really dislike players like this, but I don't know all of the circumstances surrounding this (whether the player always acts like this, whether there's some out-of-game problems that he's bringing into the game, etc.), so you might not want to be that harsh.

[limejuicepowder]

I don't think nerfing the warlock's abilities is the answer here: that's just going to piss off the warlock player.

The most obvious answer I see is in-game: what do the other characters think of being continually thrown under the bus by their "teammate"? If they think what I think their thinking, I encourage you to encourage them to do something about it: have the characters hash it out. If this leads to the warlock being kicked out of the party, there should be an out of game discussion to make sure the warlock player realizes why it went that way.

Alternatively, you could just skip to the out of game solution and explain to the player that his play style is disruptive to the game and could be please stop. It is easy to get carried away with powers like permanent fly, but if he's a decent individual he should understand where you're coming from and curb his actions.

[NikitaDarkstar]

I don't think nerfing the warlock's abilities is the answer here: that's just going to piss off the warlock player.

The most obvious answer I see is in-game: what do the other characters think of being continually thrown under the bus by their "teammate"? If they think what I think their thinking, I encourage you to encourage them to do something about it: have the characters hash it out. If this leads to the warlock being kicked out of the party, there should be an out of game discussion to make sure the warlock player realizes why it went that way.

Alternatively, you could just skip to the out of game solution and explain to the player that his play style is disruptive to the game and could be please stop. It is easy to get carried away with powers like permanent fly, but if he's a decent individual he should understand where you're coming from and curb his actions.

This.

Really, the characters would get fed up by this at some point IC and just tell him he don't need to bother coming back again. This will show the Warlock player the others are fed up and he'll be forced to make a new character. Also have an OOC discussion about it and tell him that if he doesn't stop destroying everyone else fun you'll have no choice but ask him to leave the table.

[TroubleBrewing]

In-game solutions, while satisfying to think about, are never the answer.

The out-of-game talking-to is what needs to be done here. This player needs to understand that his attitude and actions are pissing everyone else off.

Shape up, or ship out.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

In middle of a serious discussion with gate guards the warlock takes flight, alarming the guards, and when asked to come down he flies off leaving the party to explain.

...

Not related to your issue because you've already been given the right answer several times, but I often wonder why these city guard types, despite living in a world literally filled with magic & monsters, are always surprised when someone can fly or something. You'd think they'd be prepared for that sort of thing in basic training.

[TroubleBrewing]

You'd think they'd be prepared for that sort of thing in basic training.

I both love and hate this sort of thinking.

On one hand, it leads to the removal of that utterly ridiculous fantasy trope of the shocked guards letting the heroes escape because one of them can light himself on fire. This is positive, because as a DM, I'm tired of players assuming guards are idiots.

On the other hand, it's a rapid and slippery slope into the Tippyverse. If the guards are prepared for every eventuality, it's because they're Golems lead by high-level Dominated/Mindraped Wizards. It tends to get out of hand quickly.

[absolmorph]

I both love and hate this sort of thinking.

On one hand, it leads to the removal of that utterly ridiculous fantasy trope of the shocked guards letting the heroes escape because one of them can light himself on fire. This is positive, because as a DM, I'm tired of players assuming guards are idiots.

On the other hand, it's a rapid and slippery slope into the Tippyverse. If the guards are prepared for every eventuality, it's because they're Golems lead by high-level Dominated/Mindraped Wizards. It tends to get out of hand quickly.
It doesn't have to be a really broad training; just have them familiar with the effects of really common (and apparent) low-level spell effects. Stuff like fly, fireball, lightning bolt, and wind wall. Or just have general effects that they're familiar with (i.e. summoning fire and lightning, flying, controlling wind). It makes them more realistic without heading down the road to the Tippyverse.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I both love and hate this sort of thinking.

On one hand, it leads to the removal of that utterly ridiculous fantasy trope of the shocked guards letting the heroes escape because one of them can light himself on fire. This is positive, because as a DM, I'm tired of players assuming guards are idiots.

On the other hand, it's a rapid and slippery slope into the Tippyverse. If the guards are prepared for every eventuality, it's because they're Golems lead by high-level Dominated/Mindraped Wizards. It tends to get out of hand quickly.

I think 1/5 guards should be equipped with +1 longbows, and the rest carry ten +1 arrows in a separate quiver, so they aren't rendered useless by Protection from Arrows. The caster who makes them would be a part of the guard, so he gets the experience to craft more. And it could be multiple casters in big cities, like a small guild of level 3 adepts with a wizard leading it, helping out the guards in combat with Sleeps and Cures.

Edit: Going off absol's idea, they could all be trained to recognize Wind Walls and charge right through them before continuing their attack on the other side.

[Kobold-Bard]

I both love and hate this sort of thinking.

On one hand, it leads to the removal of that utterly ridiculous fantasy trope of the shocked guards letting the heroes escape because one of them can light himself on fire. This is positive, because as a DM, I'm tired of players assuming guards are idiots.

On the other hand, it's a rapid and slippery slope into the Tippyverse. If the guards are prepared for every eventuality, it's because they're Golems lead by high-level Dominated/Mindraped Wizards. It tends to get out of hand quickly.

I'm not saying they should be controlled by high level mages, just that unlike our world where people flying and summoning celestial badgers are just myths & stories, they know for a FACT that there are people in their world who can do that, not all of them nice people. It's like the police in our world not being trained how to react to someone with a gun, it's something they are almost certainly going to come across in their line of work at some point or another.

[Eldariel]

I both love and hate this sort of thinking.

On one hand, it leads to the removal of that utterly ridiculous fantasy trope of the shocked guards letting the heroes escape because one of them can light himself on fire. This is positive, because as a DM, I'm tired of players assuming guards are idiots.

On the other hand, it's a rapid and slippery slope into the Tippyverse. If the guards are prepared for every eventuality, it's because they're Golems lead by high-level Dominated/Mindraped Wizards. It tends to get out of hand quickly.

Well, I don't believe it's good in any eventuality to invoke the Useless Guards trope. It tends to make for really unbelievable worlds, where the only reason all the cities are standing is that none of the 100000000 magical beasts inhabiting the world happened to pass nearby and annihilate it.

It also means the PCs can do whatever the hell they want without regards to local authorities or unnamed NPCs in general. Like, in my opinion PCs should always be averse to killing a person in a city regardless of alignment, just due to the potential consequences.


I think all military and police forces should at least acknowledge the existence of low-level spells, and preferably make use of them themselves; even simple Cantrips can be incredibly useful in military use. And most high-level places should somehow be built to account for mid- and even high-level magic too (at the very least Teleport shouldn't be free pass everywhere).

[Talakeal]

I would say it really depends on the campaign world. In my setting, for example, obvious displays of magic are dealt with by specialized witch hunters. It takes a tremendous amount of specialized training and equipment to deal with a renegade wizard, and the town guards trying to do so would simply be a liability as they are more likely to end up dead or dominated than succeed.

That said, because of said witch hunters, or already powerful wizards who want to preserve their space at the top by keeping the other wizards down, only an incredibly reckless wizard would use magic in front of the guards, so the guards don't need to deal with it.

But, my setting is a more sword and sorcery setting than high fantasy. In your typical high magic D&D magic item shop in every town setting, yeah, the guards would need to deal with magic, and would likely have a few casters of their own as well as the needed magic items to deal with enemy casters, or at least hold them off until the big guns (high level adventurers) arrive.

[Glimbur]

This is an out of game problem, and should be handled out of game.

That said, Stormwrack has rules for harpoons, which are a funny mundane way to deal with fliers. Nets with attached ropes are also valid, as are bows if you are ok with just shooting the guy. Magically, a dispel magic could give him a bad day.

[Slipperychicken]

It also means the PCs can do whatever the hell they want without regards to local authorities or unnamed NPCs in general. Like, in my opinion PCs should always be averse to killing a person in a city regardless of alignment, just due to the potential consequences.

+1 to this. I am currently playing in a game where the lowest-level effects stupefy guards, where law enforcement is totally absent, and where a PC literally dragged a body through the streets without so much as an interjection from passerby. Do not let your players get away with that nonsense, or it will stomp the suspension of disbelief into a fine dust.


Flight isn't the problem, the player's behaviour is. Talk it out, and let him know that this kind of thing is disruptive, regardless of what the character "would do".

[Stubbed Tongue]

Any chance he might actually be roleplaying his alignment or character concept? I don't think the player needs to be 'talked to'. He is playing the way he wants and I'd bet everyone at that table plays the way they want as well.

Why didn't the guards fly after him? Or dispel him? Why didn't you make the item he took turn out be to mildly cursed instead?

I don't mean to offend you, but your DMing is lacking. You need to know that YOU can screw with him more than he could ever think of screwing with his group.

Put yourself in the guard's role. If they can't respond to a third level spell then why are they there? Seriously.

[Elboxo]

Any chance he might actually be roleplaying his alignment or character concept? I don't think the player needs to be 'talked to'. He is playing the way he wants and I'd bet everyone at that table plays the way they want as well.

Why didn't the guards fly after him? Or dispel him? Why didn't you make the item he took turn out be to mildly cursed instead?

I don't mean to offend you, but your DMing is lacking. You need to know that YOU can screw with him more than he could ever think of screwing with his group.

Put yourself in the guard's role. If they can't respond to a third level spell then why are they there? Seriously.

I think this was just a tip of the iceburg example, mate. As much as I agree about guards having a full caster in every group of say 10 guards, or at every door/entry, I think here that the player is at fault here, he may well be playing how he wants, but if that is disrupting the party, which it clearly is doing for the DM at least, then something ought to be done.....

I'd say talk to him in person privately, if that fails, get the party onto it.

[Kobold-Bard]

Any chance he might actually be roleplaying his alignment or character concept? I don't think the player needs to be 'talked to'. He is playing the way he wants and I'd bet everyone at that table plays the way they want as well.

Why didn't the guards fly after him? Or dispel him? Why didn't you make the item he took turn out be to mildly cursed instead?

I don't mean to offend you, but your DMing is lacking. You need to know that YOU can screw with him more than he could ever think of screwing with his group.

Put yourself in the guard's role. If they can't respond to a third level spell then why are they there? Seriously.

The OP's issue isn't that the NPCs can't handle someone who can fly (they can't, but that's not the issue they brought up). The player is being a bit of a tool, acting like a child on a sugar high, doing whatever springs to mind without any thought process involved. And while this may be fun for them & fit their character it's obviously negatively affecting the rest of the characters and the rest of the players. So either the player has to learn some restraint, or the rest of the party will have no reason to keep him around in-game (would you keep someone who threatened the police & then constantly ran away around?) and just ditch him and then the game is screwed.

It's a group game, if one player is being a **** and not being part of the group then it's an issue that needs to be sorted.

[W3bDragon]

There are a few different issues here. First off, its the issue with the warlock class. I know from personal experience that DMing a warlock PC for the first time can be annoying, because their abilities are always on. Constant fly. Constant detect magic. Constant detect invisibility. They can be a pain for any DM to deal with. I won't go into how to deal with the other abilities, but as for the fly, its usually good to keep in mind that, most of the time, PCs creating their first ever warlock will use fly as their one and only line of defense. Compare it to a fighter's armor or a wizard's displacement. Its all they got. Sure its strong, but without it, the warlock will usually be cut down rather quick in melee.

The point is, don't go out of your way to always find ways to counter his ability to fly. On rare occasion, making his fly useless would be interesting, but turning the campaign into one where fly is nearly always a liability rather than a benefit is unfair to the PC.

That said, the second issues seems to be that the player is using his abilities willy nilly with no thought as to the effect they would have in the campaign world. This is the perfect time for the campaign world to come to life in your hands. Its important that you make it clear to the player, before you take any action, that what he is doing is prohibited in the city. If you never told him he shouldn't be doing that, then you only have yourself to blame.

Assuming you have told him that this city won't tolerate random displays of magic, then in the example you set with the guards, the guards would be foolhardy to try to engage him. They would instead report this renegade magician to the authorities. Eventually, a group of guards shows up to arrest him (and only him). A group of guards accompanied by a cleric wielding a wand of dispel magic and preparing a silence spell would be devastating to a warlock. Throw on top of that a guard lieutenant with Iron Bands of Binding, and the warlock can be pacified in no time by a group of low level, well prepared guards.

A few stern words from the lieutenant to the rest of the party will make sure they don't interfere, unless they all want to end up in chains along side the warlock. The guards lead him to a questioning session. They make it clear that magic is not to be used in public without reason. They force him to a pay a hefty fine (perhaps the item he stole) and release him with the warning that next time he does something like that, he won't get off so easily.

Next time he makes excessive displays of magic where everybody can see for no reason, you can choose different consequences. What if there is a group of warlocks in the city that are in hiding because the local court wizard has decreed that their kind of magic is evil and cannot be allowed to be practiced? One of these warlocks approaches the PC and tells him that if he doesn't keep a low profile, someone somewhere will eventually figure out that he's not just another wizard, but a warlock. This could cause a new crackdown on warlocks where the guards comb the city for any and all magicians to be tested as to whether they're warlocks or not, and if they are, off to the gallows. He'll be putting all of the hiding warlocks at risk, and they won't like that very much.

The point is, an OOC conversation about what he is doing is definitely warranted. However, sometime just saying "stop flying for no reason, its bad" just isn't enough. The PC needs to see the consequences of what he's doing have an effect in the game.

The OOC conversation shouldn't really focus on "stop flying for no reason." Instead it should focus on the real problem, which is that he's being a liability to the team. He's stealing items, causing problems with guards. That has nothing to do with his abilities, but more to do with him. If he says that he's willing to accept the consequences of his actions, then spring the previous ideas on him. If he shapes up, great! If he doesn't, off to the gallows and be done with him.