[3.5]Monster Challenge: Ogre Mage

[Thurbane]

It's generally known that the Ogre Mage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogreMage.htm) is woefully weak for it's CR. It's the poster boy for Legacy Syndrome, in that they tried to keep it's AD&D abilities that now scaled horribly under 3E rules.

My challenge is thus: using templates, (non-associated) class levels, feat selection and/or gear, can you make an Ogre Mage that is a credible threat for it's CR?

Only stipulation is that the base creature must be the Ogre Mage, and not simply some similar creature such as the Elemental Mage. Also, using only official WotC sources would be a bonus.

Cheers - T

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's generally known that the Ogre Mage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogreMage.htm) is woefully weak for it's CR. It's the poster boy for Legacy Syndrome, in that they tried to keep it's AD&D abilities that now scaled horribly under 3E rules.

My challenge is thus: using templates, (non-associated) class levels, feat selection and/or gear, can you make an Ogre Mage that is a credible threat for it's CR?

Only stipulation is that the base creature must be the Ogre Mage, and not simply some similar creature such as the Elemental Mage. Also, using only official WotC sources would be a bonus.

Cheers - T

I think you significantly underestimate the power involved in either regeneration or Change Shape as a (Su) ability. Particularly when the HD is *NOT* capped.

[deuxhero]

WotC alreddy fixed it in a web article.

[nyarlathotep]

I think you significantly underestimate the power involved in either regeneration or Change Shape as a (Su) ability. Particularly when the HD is *NOT* capped.

It has shape change the monster ability not the spell. This means that it keeps its old ability scores regardless of shape and only gains the natural attacks and extraordinary attacks of the new form. Additionally the form is limited to small-large humanoids and giants. I honestly cannot think of anything that would actually bump its CR up that much from the above constraints.

[tyckspoon]

I think you significantly underestimate the power involved in either regeneration or Change Shape as a (Su) ability. Particularly when the HD is *NOT* capped.

A low regeneration value is just not that big a deal, especially when it's got the standard 'fire or acid' means of breaking it. For Change Shape.. are you perhaps mixing it up with Alternate Form, or is there an unusually powerful shape you already have in mind? The only thing you get from Change Shape is

The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.

For all other numbers, it's still an Ogre Mage wearing a different skin; Change Shape isn't going to make it dramatically more powerful unless you can find a humanoid or Giant form with an especially exploitable Ex special attack (the only one I can think of off-hand is turning into a Dusk Giant and abusing Cannibalize, which is admittedly pretty smelly cheese. 1 level of Commoner + Chicken Infested, Change Shape to a Least Dusk Giant, consume chickens to become a 24 HD Greater Dusk Giant.)

[Thurbane]

WotC alreddy fixed it in a web article.
True, but not really the point of my thread.

I want to see what people can do creatively using the SRD Ogre Mage as a starting point...that's why I've called it a "challenge".

[tyckspoon]

Ignoring the diversion into shape-changing cheese for a moment-

As written, the Ogre Mage basically only has its Cone of Cold as a CR-appropriate attack. After using it, its options are: run away (invis/permanent flight/Gaseous Form with normal Flight maneuverability does make it reasonably good at this, if it survives the PC turn) or die very quickly. So maximizing the effect of that one shot would seem to be the thing to do.. and thankfully, the Sudden Metamagic feats work with SLAs, since they were written into Complete Arcane with the Warlock in mind.

The downside is that the good ones for this purpose- specifically, Sudden Empower and Sudden Maximize- have 'one other metamagic feat' as a prereq, and there's really nothing to satisfy that prereq with that is any use to the Ogre Mage; you can make that one Cone of Cold really sting with Sudden Maximize, but you'll have to burn another feat completely to get it. (It's worth noting that one level of anything will advance the Ogre Mage to 6 HD and so get it another feat, which makes sacrificing one to unlock those Suddens a little less painful.)

[deuxhero]

Ogre Mages have SLAs, not spells. They don't qualify for Maximize SLA though.

[tyckspoon]

The Sudden meta feats work on spell-likes. It's in the introductory stuff in the feats section of Complete Arcane, part of the 'what is this new kind of feat anyway?' section for the Sudden feats. Done as a nod to Warlocks, but it makes them an option for monsters that can't meet the caster level requirements on the X Spell-Like Ability feats too.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's always using it as the basis for an Emerald Legion, templating to get immunities to fire and acid so they are immune to damage

[DonutBoy12321]

If Dragon Magazine is allowed, I have some ideas.

[Thurbane]

If Dragon Magazine is allowed, I have some ideas.
I generally don't use Dragon, but sure, lets hear it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ubannu the Unbreakable Seer, Ogre Mage Spirit Shaman 6
Size/Type: Large Giant
Hit Dice: 11d8+55 (108 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 70 ft. (good) (40 ft. base)
Armor Class: 29 (-1 size, +6 natural, +4 dexterity, +6 +2 chain shirt, +1 deflection, +3 +1 animated heavy steel shield), touch 14, flat-footed 25
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+18
Attack: +1 Force Javelin +14 ranged (1d8+8, 60 ft. increments) or +1 Warning Armor Spikes +14 melee (1d8+7)
Full Attack: +1 Force Javelin (main hand) +12/+7 ranged (1d8+8, 60 ft. increments) and +1 Force Javelin (offhand) +12/+7 ranged (1d8+4, 60 ft. increments), or +1 Warning Armor Spikes +14/+9 melee (1d8+7)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, Spells, Chastise Spirits, Ghost Warrior, Detect Spirits, Wild Empathy
Special Qualities: Change shape, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, regeneration 5, spell resistance 19, Spirit Guide, Blessing of the Spirits, Follow the Guide, Acid Resistance 10, Fire Resistance 10
Saves: Fort +17, Ref +10, Will +12
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 18, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 16
Skills: Concentration +19, Listen +19, Spellcraft +5, Spot +19, Survival +7, Knowledge: Nature +5
Feats: Brutal Throw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Alertness (B), Practiced Spellcaster: Spirit Shaman, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Far Shot (B)
Environment: Cold hills
Organization: Solitary, traveling (Ubannu plus 1-3 Dire Wolves), troupe (Ubannu plus 3-6 Ogres plus 2-5 Dire Wolves), or clan (Ubannu plus 2-3 Ogre Magi plus 12-20 Ogres plus 8-16 Dire Wolves plus 50% of max result in noncombatants)
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: Standard ECL 18 NPC gear
Alignment: lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +7

Possessions:
+2 Large Chain Shirt of Acid Resistance of Fire Resistance, +1 Warning Large Armor Spikes, +1 Animated Large Heavy Steel Shield, Gloves of Endless Javelins of Dexterity +2, Bracers of Aerial Combat, Mask of the Hunter (as Helm of the Hunter), Ring of Enduring Arcana of Protection +1, Circlet of Rapid Casting, Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, Lesser Strand of Prayer Beads, Ring of the Darkhidden, Vest of Free Movement of Resistance +3, Necklace of Adaptation of Natural Armor +1, Minor Cloak of Displacement, Healing Belt, divine focus (holly and mistletoe, lock of dire wolf fur), eight Bone Talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) (turning) spell foci with Unguent of Timelessness applied (and that spell cast Extended on each for a 50+ day duration), Wand of Cure Light Wounds, 1,810 gp

Spirit Shaman Spells/Day: 6/7/6/4, DC 13 + spell level, caster level 10th.
Typical Spirit Shaman spells retrieved (3/3/2/1):
0- Create Water, Mending, Cure Minor Wounds
1- Entangle, Cure Light Wounds, Faerie Fire
2- Cloud Wings, Kelpstrand
3- Protection from Energy

Spell-Like Abilities
At will—darkness, invisibility; 1/day— charm person (DC 14), cone of cold (DC 18), gaseous form, sleep (DC 14). Caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Flight (Su)
An ogre mage can cease or resume flight as a free action. While using gaseous form it can fly at its normal speed and has perfect maneuverability.

Change Shape (Su)
An ogre mage can assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid or giant.

Regeneration (Ex)
Fire and acid deal normal damage to an ogre mage.
An ogre mage that loses a limb or body part can reattach it by holding the severed member to the stump. Reattachment takes 1 minute. If the head or some other vital organ is severed, it must be reattached within 10 minutes or the creature dies. An ogre mage cannot regrow lost body parts.

Tactics: Every day he casts Cloud Wings on himself, using the Lesser Rod of Extend so it lasts twice as long. He's always Invisible, even when among allies, and he's always airborne.
Prior to combat, surprise round: Move into position if he hasn't been noticed yet, preferably gaining cover from a tree or other terrain.
1st round: Cast Kelpstrand on up to three opponents within range, or cast Entangle if facing multiple opponents at a long distance, or cast Protection from Energy if opponents appear to be able to deal fire or acid damage.
2nd round: Cast Kelpstrand if there are any ungrappled foes within range, or cast Entangle if facing many foes spread over a large area, or cast Protection from Energy if he's taken any fire or acid damage, or full attack the least armored foe with force javelins.
3rd round: Cast Protection from Energy if he's taken any fire or acid damage, or full attack an enemy spellcaster or a lightly armored foe with force javelins, or move into range and cast Kelpstrand on opponents using spells and/or ranged attacks.
4th round: Continue full attacking, use Protection from Energy if needed, continue using Entangle and Kelpstrand to keep opponents pinned down.
If he takes over half his HP in damage, whether real or nonlethal, he'll use Invisibility and attempt to break line of sight/effect to his enemies using cover as he flees, also ordering any of his companions to retreat. He'll try to regenerate and cure any actual damage he's taken. He'll either reengage his opponents after he's fully recovered/buffed, or pick up some reinforcements and attack them at night as they rest.

[Thurbane]

Nice work BF...I am going to have to use this guy in a game some time! :smallbiggrin:

[Runestar]

Why is the ogre mage npc having so much gear? It should have treasure appropriate for a cr11 npc, not EL18 (that is for players).

The upside is that if you treat all classes as non-associated (and round down the +.5cr from the 5th class lv), an ogre mage npc will always have as much HD as his cr.

An ogre mage fighter8 is cr13, has 13HD, 3 attacks, decent physical stats and can fly. I think he would be an interesting melee type.

[tyckspoon]

The upside is that if you treat all classes as non-associated (and round down the +.5cr from the 5th class lv), an ogre mage npc will always have as much HD as his cr.
.

It's hard to decide what should be 'non-associated' for an Ogre Mage, at least for me.. I mean, full-BAB classes that hit stuff? Well, despite the poor starter CR, it's still an Ogre- it's Large, it has decent physical scores. That's a good synergizing base for full BAB and whackin' stuff, so I can't really call that unassociated. Spellcasting? Ogre Mage doesn't have any actual native spellcasting, so it's starting from pretty far back.. on the other hand, the sheer power that 'non-associated' casting levels give relative to the CR makes me very hesitant to set them as non-associated on anything with the mental stats to use the spells it gets. Skill/stealth classes might reasonbly be non-associated, but even there permanent flight, gaseous form, and invisibility and darkness at will makes a pretty good base.. I mean, Pixies have similar special abilities (although better invis), and I don't think you'd find many people who would call Rogue or similar a poor match for them.

[Gwendol]

Have him advance as sorceror (better) or bard (not as good): the high charisma put to good use, and eventually as he gains caster levels he can qualify for the maximize or empower SLA feats to boost the cone of cold.

On the downside is that his ECL is way high, thus severly limiting his casting class advancement.

To make the ogre mage more CR-appropriate he should at least be able to use his one offensive weapon (cone of cold) more often than 1/day: at least 3/day or make it similar to a dragon's breath with a 1d4+1 rounds cool-down period.

[Thurbane]

Why is the ogre mage npc having so much gear? It should have treasure appropriate for a cr11 npc, not EL18 (that is for players).
Isn't that what the NPC wealth by level table is for (which is significantly less than the PC WBL for an equivalent level)? You use the NPCs effective character level, or have I got it wrong?

[Gwendol]

Don't forget the Ogre Mage gets double normal CR-rated treasure in the DMG.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Isn't that what the NPC wealth by level table is for (which is significantly less than the PC WBL for an equivalent level)? You use the NPCs effective character level, or have I got it wrong?

That's exactly what I did; Giant 5 + Spirit Shaman 6 + LA 7 = ECL 18, DMG p127 says he should have 180,000 gp worth of gear. On that same page are quick reference blocks for using monster races for the given example NPCs in that chapter, and Ogre Mage is even listed there, although it looks like it's presuming you would be using it for an associated class. Given that example though, it may be implying that it should only have gear appropriate to its class level, rather than its full ECL, plus whatever standard treasure it would have. It depends on how you interpret it, and whether you want to give your party a huge pile-o-loot. Had I noticed that before I wouldn't have given him nearly as much.

[Runestar]

The thing with the ogre mage is that it is literally a dead-end monster - practically no class has features which synergise with its current abilities. Whatever class you have it take, its practically hamstrung by its debilitating +8cr. It's cr8 with a bab of +3 and 5 crappy giant HD.

Compare this to a stone giant, which has bab+10 and superior physical stats. My stone giant sorc14 would have a cr of 15!. :smallamused:

Invisibility and darkness take a standard action to use, forget about spamming it in combat. Cone of cold rapidly decreases in usefulness as you go higher in lv - its damage becomes less relevant, resistance gets more common and players can make the reflex save more consistently.

Seriously, I am tempted to just take a stock ogre and pile on lvs of warlock (treat as non-associated). Invocations like fell flight, darkness and invis let you mimic an ogre mage's abilities, EB gives him a reliable ranged attack, eldritch cone replicates cone of cold. He will have more HD (and better corresponding stats) as well, ensuring survivability.


I mean, Pixies have similar special abilities (although better invis), and I don't think you'd find many people who would call Rogue or similar a poor match for them.

I would question the need to peg pixies at +4cr. What is the point of having so many special abilities when you are as fragile as a straw and falls to the first lucky hit?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ogoru Brutalus, Ogre Mage Fighter 6
Size/Type: Large Giant
Hit Dice: 5d8+6d10+55 (114 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 21 (-1 size, +5 natural, +2 dexterity, +5 +1 chain shirt), touch 11, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/21
Attack:* +2 Spiked Chain +16 melee (2d6+20 plus Knock-Back)
Full Attack:* +2 Spiked Chain +16/+11 melee (2d6+20 plus Knock-Back)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with spiked chain)
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, Dungeoncrasher
Special Qualities: Change shape, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, regeneration 5, spell resistance 19, Physical Prowess
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +4, Will +6
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 14
Skills: Concentration +8, Listen +14, Spellcraft +8, Spot +14, Intimidate +10
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knockback, Combat Reflexes, EWP: Spiked Chain, Stand Still, Iron Will (B)
Environment: Cold hills
Organization: Solitary,
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: Double standard plus 6th level NPC gear
Alignment: Neutral evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +7
*Power Attacking for -2 to hit.

Equipment:
+1 Large Chain Shirt, Armbands of Might

Treasure:
3,300 gp, blue sapphire (1,000 gp), imperfect aquamarine (400 gp), black pearl (500 gp), small black pearl (300 gp), onyx (30 gp), red garnet (100 gp), flawless moonstone (60 gp), gold trophy necklace adorned with many various monsters' teeth (900 gp), +2 Large Spiked Chain (held), Ring of Force Shield (worn), Bead of Force, Golembane Scarab (worn), Quaal's Feather Token (swan boat).

Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Ogoru excels at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside his enemies. He gains a +4 competence bonus to his saves and Armor Class when attacked by traps. He also gains a +10 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.
If Ogoru uses a bull rush to force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, the opponent stops as normal but the momentum crushes him against it dealing 8d6+24 bludgeoning damage.

Knockback (Ex)
If Ogoru scores a hit while using the Power Attack feat, he can make a free bull rush attempt against the foe he hit. He adds his penalty to hit for using Power Attack to his opposed Strength check, or double that number if he hits with a two-handed weapon. Unlike a standard bull rush attack, knockback attempts don't provoke attacks of opportunity, and he doesn't move with the enemy he knocks backward. His bull rush bonus will typically be +22, using Power Attack for -2 to hit with a two-handed weapon.

Stand Still (Ex)
When a foe's movement out of a square Ogoru threatens grants him an attack of opportunity, he can give up that attack and instead attempt to stop the foe in his tracks. He makes an attack of opportunity normally, if it hits the foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + Ogoru's damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round.

Spell-Like Abilities
At will—darkness, invisibility; 1/day— charm person (DC 14), cone of cold (DC 18), gaseous form, sleep (DC 14). Caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Flight (Su)
An ogre mage can cease or resume flight as a free action. While using gaseous form it can fly at its normal speed and has perfect maneuverability.

Change Shape (Su)
An ogre mage can assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid or giant.

Regeneration (Ex)
Fire and acid deal normal damage to an ogre mage.
An ogre mage that loses a limb or body part can reattach it by holding the severed member to the stump. Reattachment takes 1 minute. If the head or some other vital organ is severed, it must be reattached within 10 minutes or the creature dies. An ogre mage cannot regrow lost body parts.

Tactics:
Start out invisible and in flight. Fly above opponents and attack them at maximum reach, using Knockback to Dungeoncrash them against the ground. If an opponent repeatedly resists the bull rush and gets close enough to attack, retreat and use Stand Still to keep it at bay while using the above trick to crush other opponents. Approach and attack anyone using spells or ranged weapons first, especially anyone capable of dealing fire or acid damage.