I'll Smash You to Pieces! (3.5 Feats, PEACH)

[NeoSeraphi]

Strike of the Minotaur (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Str 13, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any Melee Bludgeoning Weapon), Power Attack, Improved Sunder
Benefits: When successfully destroy a creature's weapon or shield with a Sunder attempt, you may make a second Sunder attempt at the same bonus as a free action against any valid item target within your melee reach. You only gain this benefit if you are wielding an exotic melee bludgeoning weapon in both hands. This feat does not stack with itself, but you may get multiple uses out of it per round (if you use your iterative attacks to Sunder).
Special: If you gain a way to Sunder armor, such as through the Deadly Concussion feat, this feat's benefit also applies to successful Sundering of armor.


Might of the Minotaur (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Str 13, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any Melee Bludgeoning Weapon), Power Attack
Benefit: You can put an amazing amount of force behind your swings with your hammer. You add twice your Strength modifier to weapon damage rolls made with an exotic melee bludgeoning weapon you hold in both hands, instead of 1 1/2 times your Strength modifier. If you make a Power Attack with at least a -5 penalty while wielding an exotic melee bludgeoning weapon in both hands, you add three times your Strength modifier to all weapon damage rolls you make that round, instead of twice your Strength modifier.


Bloody Rampage of the Minotaur (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Str 13, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any Melee Bludgeoning Weapon), Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Combat Brute, BAB +6
Benefit: You can use the momentum from shattering a foe's item to crush them to pieces. When you use the Sundering Cleave tactical maneuver from the Combat Brute feat while wielding an exotic melee bludgeoning weapon in two hands, you take a -2 penalty to your attack roll. If you hit, your attack automatically threatens a critical hit.


Shattering Hammer (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Str 13, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any Melee Bludgeoning Weapon), Power Attack, Improved Sunder
Benefit: You can make Sunder attempts against armor worn by creatures. You only gain this benefit while wielding an exotic melee bludgeoning weapon in both hands.


Devastating Hammer (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Str 13, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any Melee Bludgeoning Weapon), Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Shattering Hammer
Benefit: When attempting to Sunder a non-weapon item while wielding an exotic melee bludgeoning weapon in both hands, you ignore all hardness if the item has hardness of less than 20. If you attempt to Sunder a non-weapon item while wielding an adamantine exotic melee bludgeoning weapon in both hands, you instead ignore the item's hardness completely.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Wrong section.

[NeoSeraphi]

Wrong section.

Craaaaaaaaaaap! Thanks Swift.

[Wyntonian]

These look pretty solid. Good bonuses, reasonable pre-req's. Overall a good job.

[NeoSeraphi]

These look pretty solid. Good bonuses, reasonable pre-req's. Overall a good job.

Why thank you, Wyn. Those orcs and their masterwork shortswords are going to wish they had never been born. :smallamused:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Craaaaaaaaaaap! Thanks Swift.

Geez, how many months have I had this username now? :smalltongue:

And the fact that this avatar is completely unassociated to my old name is another thing.

[Dumbledore lives]

I don't think you need quite so many prerequisites for Bloody Rampage, because six feats is a huge investment for anyone but a fighter, for example a barbarian taking it would only gain it as his last feat at level 18. I'd say don't require strike or might, just BAB +6 and it should be fine.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I guess I should actually post some feedback.

...I'm stuck on wondering how you carve someone up with a hammer.

Anyway, why is this Minotaur Greathammer only? What if it was...
Requirement: you must be wielding two-handed bludgeoning weapon, or a one-handed bludgeoning weapons being wielded in two or more hands.

[NeoSeraphi]

Geez, how many months have I had this username now? :smalltongue:

And the fact that this avatar is completely unassociated to my old name is another thing.
Sorry. SwiftMongoose is, in my opinion, the superior username. :smalltongue:


I don't think you need quite so many prerequisites for Bloody Rampage, because six feats is a huge investment for anyone but a fighter, for example a barbarian taking it would only gain it as his last feat at level 18. I'd say don't require strike or might, just BAB +6 and it should be fine.

The Minotaur Greathammer has a critical multiplier of x4. You automatically get to deal quadruple damage for pretty much free, in addition to smashing through someone's armor. It should be expensive (I think quadruple damage at-will is a pretty nice end to a six feat chain, actually)

[bobthe6th]

wait... these feats involve no carving!

not sure on the exact stats of a great hammer, but I think the crit was x4. so instant quad damage for the fighter at the end of his charge?

and nija'd... annoyed

[NeoSeraphi]

I guess I should actually post some feedback.

...I'm stuck on wondering how you carve someone up with a hammer.

Anyway, why is this Minotaur Greathammer only? What if it was...
Requirement: you must be wielding two-handed bludgeoning weapon, or a one-handed bludgeoning weapons being wielded in two or more hands.

Because the Minotaur Greathammer is clearly the superior bludgeoning weapon. It smashes face harder than mauls or flails.

Don't think of it as singling the minotaur greathammer out. Think of it as making the minotaur greathammer actually worth the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.

[NeoSeraphi]

wait... these feats involve no carving!

not sure on the exact stats of a great hammer, but I think the crit was x4. so instant quad damage for the fighter at the end of his charge?

and nija'd... annoyed

The carving refers to the items being Sundered, not the enemy.

Edit: Changed the title. Better now?

[bobthe6th]

sorry, my smart ass habits were playing up.

I'm not sure about these feats though... some DMs make enemy equipment not retrievable, or worthless. then breaking it is fine. but some DMs let you loot properly... and a sword is a few good GP.

[NeoSeraphi]

sorry, my smart ass habits were playing up.

I'm not sure about these feats though... some DMs make enemy equipment not retrievable, or worthless. then breaking it is fine. but some DMs let you loot properly... and a sword is a few good GP.

These feats are obviously not for people who don't want to Sunder. They are definitely for people who want to Sunder everything. (Except Might of the Minotaur. That's just power)

So, ignoring the underlying problem with the Sunder maneuver, what do you think of the feats?

[bobthe6th]

fun, scary in the hands of an ubercharger but fun. I don't have a good balance point for long feat chains like that though...

I could see players geting pissed when the minotaur breaks all their stuff though, and the DM having to field more natural weapon heavy foes. perhaps a feat to allow for sundering natural weapons?

the middle feat... well, again, scarry in the hands of an uber charger. not quite to chargadin levels but scarry none the less.

[NeoSeraphi]

I could see players geting pissed when the minotaur breaks all their stuff though, and the DM having to field more natural weapon heavy foes. perhaps a feat to allow for sundering natural weapons?


Yeah, that's why generally speaking DMs don't Sunder players' gear (at least, not without telling them about it beforehand)

[bobthe6th]

but but but... the look on the fighters face as his last shred of meaning is lost to a hammer is priceless! admittedly shatter is more entertaining but still...

really, I think more sunder focus would be good. the first feat is good for that, but the second drops the ball. then the last feat is crazy bonus damage veiled with sunder.

the middle one just... bothers me. I would rather see more sundering in the middle of the chain, then super charging the damage... but thats just me. perhapce some anti- construct power boost?

[NeoSeraphi]

but but but... the look on the fighters face as his last shred of meaning is lost to a hammer is priceless! admittedly shatter is more entertaining but still...

really, I think more sunder focus would be good. the first feat is good for that, but the second drops the ball. then the last feat is crazy bonus damage veiled with sunder.

the middle one just... bothers me. I would rather see more sundering in the middle of the chain, then super charging the damage... but thats just me. perhapce some anti- construct power boost?

Anti-Construct Power Boost is completely invalidated by the fact that every Sunder build in existence is getting an adamantine weapon anyway. But...Okay let's see what I can do about more Sunder support. Hold on.

[NeoSeraphi]

Added Shattering Hammer and Devastating Hammer.

[bobthe6th]

heh, mountain sides.

[Noctis Vigil]

Congratulations, you have now guaranteed every campaign I GM will make a player cry. Thank you. :smallamused:

In all seriousness, these are nice feats. I can actually see these getting use in one of the games I'm running (where the one using them will be, amusingly, a minotaur).

[Cieyrin]

Because the Minotaur Greathammer is clearly the superior bludgeoning weapon. It smashes face harder than mauls or flails.

Don't think of it as singling the minotaur greathammer out. Think of it as making the minotaur greathammer actually worth the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.

I don't see why you couldn't do it with a Goliath Greathammer, a maul, a Ramhammer or a Warmace. Especially since the Minotaur Greathammer is just a poorly edited copy of the Goliath Greathammer. :smalltongue:

Also, hope you're a Greathorn Minotaur to really push the minotaurness. :smallwink:

[herrhauptmann]

I think you should include a caveat for Bloody rampage that some or all 'autoconfirms' for crits won't work with the feat.
ex: Blessed weapon, particularly BoED version. Autoconfirm on crits against evil creatures.
Taking a mere -2 on attack for a guaranteed x4 damage is pretty sweet. But putting that on a PC will make the DM cry, and make the rest of the party useless in melee besides their flanking bonuses.
Perhaps, if you use the feat, and roll a crit threat anyway, it should autoconfirm.

And yeah, I also wish you'd expanded it for other bludgeoning weapons, not just the minotaur greathammer. It's a sad fact that bludgeoning is the unwanted stepchild of melee, while slashing weapons are the golden-child.

[NeoSeraphi]

Okay, updated. The feats now apply to any exotic melee bludgeoning weapon you hold in both hands.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I don't see why you couldn't do it with a Goliath Greathammer, a maul, a Ramhammer or a Warmace. Especially since the Minotaur Greathammer is just a poorly edited copy of the Goliath Greathammer. :smalltongue:

No, Goliath Greathammer is a poorly edited copy of Minotaur Greathammer. Minotaur Greathammer is actually worth the feat.

[NeoSeraphi]

No, Goliath Greathammer is a poorly edited copy of Minotaur Greathammer. Minotaur Greathammer is actually worth the feat.

Indeed. A +2 bonus to Sunder checks (which are just attack rolls with Size modifiers) is not worth the blow that minotaur greathammer took.

[Cieyrin]

No, Goliath Greathammer is a poorly edited copy of Minotaur Greathammer. Minotaur Greathammer is actually worth the feat.

Races of Stone came out in August 2004. Monster Manual IV came out July 2006. I really doubt they based the Goliath Greathammer on a weapon that didn't exist. The difference between the Minotaur Greathammer and Goliath Greathammer is the Minotaur one may or may not have a 19-20 crit range, since the minotaur stat block says it's just x4 and the latter section says 19-20/x4. It also doesn't list a price, unlike the Goliath Greathammer They also both have that +2 sunder bonus, so either you use Races of Stone version, which doesn't need any DM fiat on how to acquire one or you talk to your DM about the exact stats of the MM4 version. Having to decide what those stats are to me sounds like bad editing. There was no errata, either, since it was on the tail end of 3.5, but what do I know, a d12 x4 bludgeoning weapon that gives a bonus to sundering is apparently not enough in comparison to a Greataxe or Heavy Flail. *shrug*

[NeoSeraphi]

Races of Stone came out in August 2004. Monster Manual IV came out July 2006. I really doubt they based the Goliath Greathammer on a weapon that didn't exist. The difference between the Minotaur Greathammer and Goliath Greathammer is the Minotaur one may or may not have a 19-20 crit range, since the minotaur stat block says it's just x4 and the latter section says 19-20/x4. It also doesn't list a price, unlike the Goliath Greathammer They also both have that +2 sunder bonus, so either you use Races of Stone version, which doesn't need any DM fiat on how to acquire one or you talk to your DM about the exact stats of the MM4 version. Having to decide what those stats are to me sounds like bad editing. There was no errata, either, since it was on the tail end of 3.5, but what do I know, a d12 x4 bludgeoning weapon that gives a bonus to sundering is apparently not enough in comparison to a Greataxe or Heavy Flail. *shrug*

It does give a +2 bonus to Sundering? Well, my knowledge was from a third-party source. Thanks Cieryin. That's good to know. :smallbiggrin:

[Cieyrin]

It does give a +2 bonus to Sundering? Well, my knowledge was from a third-party source. Thanks Cieryin. That's good to know. :smallbiggrin:

I rant passive aggressively for the good of all on the forum. You are all welcome. :smallbiggrin:

[NeoSeraphi]

I rant passive aggressively for the good of all on the forum. You are all welcome. :smallbiggrin:

I'd trust the actual weapon's entry over the minotaur entry though. WotC fails at sample characters all the time. (Level 1 Psychic Warrior has Weapon Focus as his feat, for instance)

[Ziegander]

Strike of the Minotaur (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Str 13, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any Melee Bludgeoning Weapon), Power Attack, Improved Sunder
Benefits: When successfully destroy a creature's weapon or shield with a Sunder attempt, you may make a second Sunder attempt at the same bonus as a free action against any valid item target within your melee reach. You only gain this benefit if you are wielding an exotic melee bludgeoning weapon in both hands. This feat does not stack with itself, but you may get multiple uses out of it per round (if you use your iterative attacks to Sunder).
Special: If you gain a way to Sunder armor, such as through the Deadly Concussion feat, this feat's benefit also applies to successful Sundering of armor.

This reminds me of the "sundering" line of feats I had the idea to write a long time ago such as "Sunder Limb," "Sunder Foe," and "Sunder the Earth." I may have to work them out, now.


Might of the Minotaur (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Str 13, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any Melee Bludgeoning Weapon), Power Attack
Benefit: You can put an amazing amount of force behind your swings with your hammer. You add twice your Strength modifier to weapon damage rolls made with an exotic melee bludgeoning weapon you hold in both hands, instead of 1 1/2 times your Strength modifier. If you make a Power Attack with at least a -5 penalty while wielding an exotic melee bludgeoning weapon in both hands, you add three times your Strength modifier to all weapon damage rolls you make that round, instead of twice your Strength modifier.

I like this feat's benefit much better than the standard Power Attack feats that simply increase or multiply your Power Attack return. A similar damage boost, but one that feels much more balanced and well-flavored to me.


Bloody Rampage of the Minotaur (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Str 13, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any Melee Bludgeoning Weapon), Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Combat Brute, Might of the Minotaur, Strike of the Minotaur, BAB +6
Benefit: You can use the momentum from shattering a foe's item to crush them to pieces. When you use the Sundering Cleave tactical maneuver from the Combat Brute feat while wielding an exotic melee bludgeoning weapon in two hands, you take a -2 penalty to your attack roll. If you hit, your attack automatically threatens a critical hit.

Only a human or a character with flaws is able to take this at 6th level. Worse, the "benefit" is dubious and highly situational. The entire effect of this feat is making you less accurate at the extra cleave attack you get if you successfully sunder a weapon or shield. That's incredibly thin, even if, when the extra cleave attack hits, it automatically deals double or triple damage.

Since Might of the Minotaur and Strike of the Minotaur only relate to the effect of this feat in ancillary capacity at best, I'd cut them from the prerequisites.


Shattering Hammer (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Str 13, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any Melee Bludgeoning Weapon), Power Attack, Improved Sunder
Benefit: You can make Sunder attempts against armor worn by creatures. You only gain this benefit while wielding an exotic melee bludgeoning weapon in both hands.

Seems solid. There's really no reason why sundering armor isn't possible in D&D...


Devastating Hammer (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Str 13, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any Melee Bludgeoning Weapon), Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Shattering Hammer
Benefit: When attempting to Sunder a non-weapon item while wielding an exotic melee bludgeoning weapon in both hands, you ignore all hardness if the item has hardness of less than 20. If you attempt to Sunder a non-weapon item while wielding an adamantine exotic melee bludgeoning weapon in both hands, you instead ignore the item's hardness completely.
Special: A natural or manmade formation of a height that equals or exceeds 5' is not considered an "item" for the purposes of this feat. This includes (but is not limited to) walls, doors, and mountainsides.

Looking at these feats, it occurs to me that, without flaws or playing a human, a Fighter would be 4th level before he could be relatively good at sundering stuff. And even then, that's all he would be good at doing. That's a big problem if you ask me.

For this feat in particular, I see no reason why he doesn't get the benefit against non-items. If he's good at breaking shields and trinkets, why isn't he actually good at breaking down walls or tearing into mountains?

[NeoSeraphi]

I like this feat's benefit much better than the standard Power Attack feats that simply increase or multiply your Power Attack return. A similar damage boost, but one that feels much more balanced and well-flavored to me.


Thank you.



Only a human or a character with flaws is able to take this at 6th level. Worse, the "benefit" is dubious and highly situational. The entire effect of this feat is making you less accurate at the extra cleave attack you get if you successfully sunder a weapon or shield. That's incredibly thin, even if, when the extra cleave attack hits, it automatically deals double or triple damage.


It's actually quadruple damage. Minotaur Greathammers have a x4 critical multiplier. (That's the original point of the feat, I only expanded it to any bludgeoning weapon at the request of the PEACHers).

A -2 penalty isn't that bad, especially for a x4 return. The Power Attack feat itself is based entirely around "If I optimize my Strength, I won't need all my bonuses in order to hit, so I can be less accurate in exchange for pwning more face". Same thing here.



Since Might of the Minotaur and Strike of the Minotaur only relate to the effect of this feat in ancillary capacity at best, I'd cut them from the prerequisites.


The feat itself isn't supposed to be taken at 6th level. The +6 BAB prerequisite is only there as part of the Combat Brute prerequisite. The feat itself is supposed to be like 8th-10th level range for a single-classed fighter.



Looking at these feats, it occurs to me that, without flaws or playing a human, a Fighter would be 4th level before he could be relatively good at sundering stuff. And even then, that's all he would be good at doing. That's a big problem if you ask me.

For this feat in particular, I see no reason why he doesn't get the benefit against non-items. If he's good at breaking shields and trinkets, why isn't he actually good at breaking down walls or tearing into mountains?

That's just a problem with combat maneuvers in general. In my opinion, you shouldn't provoke AoOs for any of the Combat Maneuvers (and you definitely shouldn't auto-fail if you get hit by an AoO) but that's just the system I'm working with here. I'm not going to rework the entire Sunder mechanic, I'm just making feats.

He's plenty good at breaking down walls or tearing into mountains already. The idea that spending all your time training and wielding an adamantine weapon would allow you to ignore the hardness of like 700 feet of pure rock is stupid, though.

[Ziegander]

A -2 penalty isn't that bad, especially for a x4 return. The Power Attack feat itself is based entirely around "If I optimize my Strength, I won't need all my bonuses in order to hit, so I can be less accurate in exchange for pwning more face". Same thing here.

But the Power Attack feat is far more straightforward. Take a -3 penalty to attacks, deal +6 damage for 1 round. This feat requires you make a sunder attempt, successfully destroy the item, then hit with an extra attack at a -2 penalty in order to get any benefit. And it has TONS of prerequisites. If you don't see a problem there, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


The feat itself isn't supposed to be taken at 6th level. The +6 BAB prerequisite is only there as part of the Combat Brute prerequisite. The feat itself is supposed to be like 8th-10th level range for a single-classed fighter.

Might of the Minotaur and Strike of the Minotaur still aren't necessary as prerequisites. If you think single-classed Fighters shouldn't be taking this until 8th or 10th level, then lose those two feats and up the BAB requirement.


The idea that spending all your time training and wielding an adamantine weapon would allow you to ignore the hardness of like 700 feet of pure rock is stupid, though.

The way I've understood the rules, perhaps mistakenly, was that a character can only attempt to destroy one 5ft section of material at a time regardless. So, I don't understand your concern.

[NeoSeraphi]

But the Power Attack feat is far more straightforward. Take a -3 penalty to attacks, deal +6 damage for 1 round. This feat requires you make a sunder attempt, successfully destroy the item, then hit with an extra attack at a -2 penalty in order to get any benefit. And it has TONS of prerequisites. If you don't see a problem there, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Might of the Minotaur and Strike of the Minotaur still aren't necessary as prerequisites. If you think single-classed Fighters shouldn't be taking this until 8th or 10th level, then lose those two feats and up the BAB requirement.


Alright, I'll drop them both from the feat's prerequisites then.



The way I've understood the rules, perhaps mistakenly, was that a character can only attempt to destroy one 5ft section of material at a time regardless. So, I don't understand your concern.

Hmm...you might be right. The SRD's page on Sunder doesn't have a section on Sundering walls.

[Ziegander]

Hmm...you might be right. The SRD's page on Sunder doesn't have a section on Sundering walls.

Ah, yes, well that makes sense though, because the Sunder maneuver is only meant for in-combat use against non-armor, worn or carried objects. It wasn't designed to be used to break unattended objects (mostly because no opposed roll is necessary to hit an unattended object). You want the rules found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#breakingAndEntering) for breaking stuff out of combat.

Looks like I was a bit off. It seems like, by a strict reading of the rules anyway, that a character can only break through a maximum of one inch of material at a time in a single attack. But it wouldn't be unreasonable to allow an especially damaging attack to smash through multiple inches of material.

[NeoSeraphi]

Ah, yes, well that makes sense though, because the Sunder maneuver is only meant for in-combat use against non-armor, worn or carried objects. It wasn't designed to be used to break unattended objects (mostly because no opposed roll is necessary to hit an unattended object). You want the rules found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#breakingAndEntering) for breaking stuff out of combat.

Looks like I was a bit off. It seems like, by a strict reading of the rules anyway, that a character can only break through a maximum of one inch of material at a time in a single attack. But it wouldn't be unreasonable to allow an especially damaging attack to smash through multiple inches of material.

True. Okay, I removed the restriction on items, now you can use Devastating Hammer on any non-weapon.

[Cieyrin]

Ah, yes, well that makes sense though, because the Sunder maneuver is only meant for in-combat use against non-armor, worn or carried objects. It wasn't designed to be used to break unattended objects (mostly because no opposed roll is necessary to hit an unattended object). You want the rules found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#breakingAndEntering) for breaking stuff out of combat.

Looks like I was a bit off. It seems like, by a strict reading of the rules anyway, that a character can only break through a maximum of one inch of material at a time in a single attack. But it wouldn't be unreasonable to allow an especially damaging attack to smash through multiple inches of material.

Sundering objects is definitely not the same as tearing down walls, etc. Sundering typically has you getting an eye for finding weak points in objects in hitting there so it busts like a twig. A good solid wall or door requires a different set of skills, though you aren't necessarily unprepared for such a task. Big ass adamantine hammer, Power Attack and a need to to make like the Kool-Aid Man is all you really need, it's just you aren't going to be doing it in one attack. Just look at a 3' hewn stone wall, it only has a Hardness of 8 but it has 540 hp. You'd need to do some serious Ubercharging to dent that early on, but it's doable.