[3.5/PF] What restrictions have no known PO bypasses?

[TuggyNE]

This is kind of a weird question... but I'm curious how many intended restrictions, limitations, prerequisites, and so forth are left in 3.x that have no cheesy bypasses (short of the trivial "I am Pun-Pun and I grant myself this ability" or whatever). For example, theurge classes have their standard early entry tricks, epic feats have dragonwrought kobolds, and so on. How many unsolved problems does practical op have left, in other words?

I'm looking for prestige classes, feats, ACFs, spells/maneuvers/mysteries/invocations/whatever, and anything else that doesn't yet have a sneaky workaround for its qualifications. And, obviously, if anyone comes up with counters for these entries, ways to bypass their requisites, those'd be fun too. (Level of cheese is interesting to know, but probably not any kind of disqualifier.)

A tricky one I do remember that doesn't quite count for this thread is skill ranks; I've read somewhere else that there's at least one item that gives you actual ranks, though apparently that's about the only thing out there like it.

[dextercorvia]

Skill Ranks can be gotten around in lower op by Primary Contact (for a single skill by 1 rank) or higher op with Inspire Greatness, or Dusk Giant polymorphing+Psychic Reformation.

[NNescio]

Any PrC with a Wild Shape requirement?

'though I suppose you can DCFS your way through one level early by taking the Initiate of Horus-Re feat (CoV), if you really want to.

And strictly speaking, Divine Minion's (LA+1 template) Fast Wild Shape and Worghest's (LA+2 race) Change Shape abilities don't count either, despite being similar and the latter allowing you to qualify for feats (and feats only) that require wildshaping.

[Psyren]

As a rule, "cheesy bypasses" tend to be TO, not PO.

[dextercorvia]

That's the second time this week I've seen DCFS, I thought before someone had mistyped when referring to the Dark Chaos Shuffle, but I don't see how that would apply here. Can someone help?

[Psyren]

That's the second time this week I've seen DCFS, I thought before someone had mistyped when referring to the Dark Chaos Shuffle, but I don't see how that would apply here. Can someone help?

DCFS = Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle I think, but I'm fuzzy on the specifics of applying it to given situations so I can't help.

[TuggyNE]

As a rule, "cheesy bypasses" tend to be TO, not PO.

Heh, well, my personal threshold for cheese tends to be pretty low (and I am personally pretty terrible at optimization of any sort), but I was assuming up to pretty high practical op. I've seen a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12337260), for example, that originally recommended MT early entry as a standard thing for (presumably high-op) play; there was considerable discussion about that, but the author obviously thought it was suitable for genuine play. Does that clarify what I meant?

[Psyren]

Heh, well, my personal threshold for cheese tends to be pretty low (and I am personally pretty terrible at optimization of any sort), but I was assuming up to pretty high practical op. I've seen a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12337260), for example, that originally recommended MT early entry as a standard thing for (presumably high-op) play; there was considerable discussion about that, but the author obviously thought it was suitable for genuine play. Does that clarify what I meant?

What's wrong with early entry? You're still weak compared to a single-classed caster - you have more spells, but your progression is delayed, more spells doesn't matter unless your DM is running a very encounter-heavy campaign, and few theurges have good class features or a way to continue the dual-progression when the theurge is done.

Early-entry moves theurges from bad to playable; it's not TO.

[TuggyNE]

What's wrong with early entry? You're still weak compared to a single-classed caster - you have more spells, but your progression is delayed, more spells doesn't matter unless your DM is running a very encounter-heavy campaign, and few theurges have good class features or a way to continue the dual-progression when the theurge is done.

Early-entry moves theurges from bad to playable; it's not TO.

Exactly my point. Not saying cheese is bad at all, in this case; I am well aware that some things I consider cheese another person might reasonably assume as normal. Maybe there's some more suitable term than cheese, in this case? Anyway, that's a perfect example of what I'd consider "practical op cheese", however mild, and a great example of bypassing a restriction (Wizard 3/Cleric 3) with ingenuity.

[NNescio]

That's the second time this week I've seen DCFS, I thought before someone had mistyped when referring to the Dark Chaos Shuffle, but I don't see how that would apply here. Can someone help?

Initiate of Horus-Re gives you Wild Shape (a limited form, but it still counts), 'though it has a prerequisite of "Cleric, Paladin, or Ranger 4th". You can't take the feat at Level 3, and normally you'd have to wait until Level 6, but with Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle...

[mikau013]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, since unless your dm arbitrarily grants you power dragonwrought kobolds and punpun don't even work. (well the true dragon part of the kobolds)
And on the other side mystic theurges that with early entry still are weaker than straight wizards or clerics

Though I guess you could add Marshall level 1 granting a bonus feat.

[TuggyNE]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, since unless your dm arbitrarily grants you power dragonwrought kobolds and punpun don't even work. (well the true dragon part of the kobolds)
And on the other side mystic theurges that with early entry still are weaker than straight wizards or clerics

Yeah, those are things that do exist (whether or not they're practical for games might be debatable, of course); what I'm looking for is spots where no one has yet identified a practical solution at all. Unfortunately, I can't think of any such examples myself.:smallsigh:

[Grim Reader]

As far as I know, BaB prerequisites still have no workaround.

And I do not know the Dusk Giant/Inspire Greatness workarounds, but using Primary contact as a skill workaround requires two feats, the last one at the level just before you enter the PrC. So you pretty much need DCFS to apply it to PrC with multiple skill prereqs.

[Wings of Peace]

Silly question. What does "PO" mean?

[GoatBoy]

Early-entry moves theurges from bad to playable; it's not TO.

Are they that bad? What tier does a wizard 3/cleric 3/mystic theurge X fall under, anyway?

And do you mean, playable compared to a straight-classes wizard or cleric, or playable compared to a paladin or monk?

[Glimbur]

As far as I know, BaB prerequisites still have no workaround.

And I do not know the Dusk Giant/Inspire Greatness workarounds, but using Primary contact as a skill workaround requires two feats, the last one at the level just before you enter the PrC. So you pretty much need DCFS to apply it to PrC with multiple skill prereqs.

Both Kensai and War Chanter from Complete Warrior let you increase BAB. Whether it is long enough of a duration (1 hour and as long as the song lasts, respectively) is up for debate.

Barghest or Dusk Giant give you extra hit dice. Hit dice come with BAB. By my reading of Energy Drain, you don't have to lose the last level you gained, so it would be possible to go Wizard 5/ Dusk Giant bonus HD 5 / PrC needing BAB 4 and then energy drain off the dusk giant hd. Cheesy? Undoubtedly. This is also how you sneak around skill rank requirements: get bonus HD, Psychic Reformation to increase your skills to their new max. Neither of the abilities specify that your skills have to be returned to a legal configuration when the bonus HD leave, so the skills stay as they are. Again, this is pretty clearly TO territory.

[huttj509]

Silly question. What does "PO" mean?

Practical Optimization.

As opposed to Theoretical Optimization (infionite loops, pun-pun, etc. The stuff way out there that's mainly for the purpose of "can we break it?").

[Wings of Peace]

Both Kensai and War Chanter from Complete Warrior let you increase BAB. Whether it is long enough of a duration (1 hour and as long as the song lasts, respectively) is up for debate.

Barghest or Dusk Giant give you extra hit dice. Hit dice come with BAB. By my reading of Energy Drain, you don't have to lose the last level you gained, so it would be possible to go Wizard 5/ Dusk Giant bonus HD 5 / PrC needing BAB 4 and then energy drain off the dusk giant hd. Cheesy? Undoubtedly. This is also how you sneak around skill rank requirements: get bonus HD, Psychic Reformation to increase your skills to their new max. Neither of the abilities specify that your skills have to be returned to a legal configuration when the bonus HD leave, so the skills stay as they are. Again, this is pretty clearly TO territory.

As far as I know there is one BaB hack. But it is deep and heavily debated magic.

[molten_dragon]

Is there any way to increase base saves faster than 2/level?

[GoatBoy]

Is there any way to increase base saves faster than 2/level?

Technically, good saves increase by 2+0.5 per level. Dunno if that's what you wanted to hear, but... there it is.

[FMArthur]

Has Magelord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2) entry been solved for full caster progression and completion before 20th level? I think we discussed possibilities in the 'worst prerequisites' thread, but I don't remember if it was solved. You need Evasion, 5th level spells and four feats to enter and it is 10 levels long.

edit: Oh, right I think the answer was Polymorph Any Object to be some monster with Evasion without taking on RHD or LA. That's pretty lame for a wizard to spend all his time as, though. Magelord doesn't offer much anyway, but you could work your way up to being pretty readily spontaneous in your casting by taking Spell Mastery repeatedly.

[dextercorvia]

Technically, good saves increase by 2+0.5 per level. Dunno if that's what you wanted to hear, but... there it is.

Not if you dip.

[Urpriest]

Has Magelord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2) entry been solved for full caster progression and completion before 20th level? I think we discussed possibilities in the 'worst prerequisites' thread, but I don't remember if it was solved. You need Evasion, 5th level spells and four feats to enter and it is 10 levels long.

edit: Oh, right I think the answer was Polymorph Any Object to be some monster with Evasion without taking on RHD or LA. That's pretty lame for a wizard to spend all his time as, though. Magelord doesn't offer much anyway, but you could work your way up to being pretty readily spontaneous in your casting by taking Spell Mastery repeatedly.

Spelldancer does it if you employ some feat hack (flaws would be enough I think). Impulse Boots arguably does it, provided you think of Soulmelds as inherently class features. What I'm more curious about is what the intended entry was.

BAB hacks, as mentioned involve Warforged Warchanter singing at you 24/7. This can also work (via Inspire Courage) for skill hacking.

Edit: But BAB and skill hacks are basically never PO, except for Primary Contact which is more ImPO (ImPractical Optimization).

[FMArthur]

Spelldancer does it if you employ some feat hack (flaws would be enough I think). Impulse Boots arguably does it, provided you think of Soulmelds as inherently class features. What I'm more curious about is what the intended entry was.

BAB hacks, as mentioned involve Warforged Warchanter singing at you 24/7. This can also work (via Inspire Courage) for skill hacking.

Edit: But BAB and skill hacks are basically never PO, except for Primary Contact which is more ImPO (ImPractical Optimization).

Impulse Boots have a level requirement in excess of 10 for the feat you get them from, don't they?

[GoatBoy]

Not if you dip.

Yes, each dip in a strong-saved class is giving you a 2.5 increase in the save, not just 2.

[Urpriest]

Impulse Boots have a level requirement in excess of 10 for the feat you get them from, don't they?

Nope. Shape Soulmeld has no level requirement, Open Least Chakra (Feet) requires level 6.

[Benly]

Are they that bad? What tier does a wizard 3/cleric 3/mystic theurge X fall under, anyway?

And do you mean, playable compared to a straight-classes wizard or cleric, or playable compared to a paladin or monk?

Worse than a paladin, not necessarily worse than a monk.

Consider what it means to be level 7 with a wizard's hit points, BAB and saves and only level 2 spells and a CL of 4 to make up for it. Yes, you have a lot of level 2 spells and you have a wider list of them than most wizards do. They're still level 2 spells with a CL of 4.

To compare, the paladin is about to get level 2 spells next level, and she's not treating them as her primary (only) class feature.

edit: doip, brainfarted, fixing number.

[FMArthur]

Nope. Shape Soulmeld has no level requirement, Open Least Chakra (Feet) requires level 6.

Oh, someone directed me to Open Lesser Chakra for it one time. I never use Incarnum so I just assumed it was right.

[dextercorvia]

Yes, each dip in a strong-saved class is giving you a 2.5 increase in the save, not just 2.

Only if you go fractional, which I never assume when calculating early entry.

Versatile Domain Generalist1/Rogue2 can get into Magelord by Chaos Shuffling one of his Racial Feats for Signature Spell. You get Improved Initiative in place of Scribe Scroll, and he has one flaw feat left over, and the 3rd level feat to pick up Weapon Focus:Ray and Spell Mastery.

That is a 3rd level entry.

[molten_dragon]

Technically, good saves increase by 2+0.5 per level. Dunno if that's what you wanted to hear, but... there it is.

True, but unless you're playing with fractional saves you can't advance them faster than 2/level.

[Psyren]

Oh, someone directed me to Open Lesser Chakra for it one time. I never use Incarnum so I just assumed it was right.

Chakra binds by feat:

- Feats -

Least: Hands, Feet, Crown (6th)
Lesser: Arms, Shoulders, Brow (12th)
Greater: Throat, Waist (18th)

- Epic Feats -

Open Heart: Heart (21st)
Open Soul: Soul (24th)


Totem: Totemist 2 only

[FMArthur]

Only if you go fractional, which I never assume when calculating early entry.

Versatile Domain Generalist1/Rogue2 can get into Magelord by Chaos Shuffling one of his Racial Feats for Signature Spell. You get Improved Initiative in place of Scribe Scroll, and he has one flaw feat left over, and the 3rd level feat to pick up Weapon Focus:Ray and Spell Mastery.

That is a 3rd level entry.

Spell Mastery requires a Wizard level. And it was always perfectly easy to get into Magelord by losing caster progression as long as you increased your highest spell level to 5 through any trick of your choice. Magelord is only difficult to get into while maintaining full caster progression, but that's been solved with Incarnum pretty handily.

[dextercorvia]

Spell Mastery requires a Wizard level. And it was always perfectly easy to get into Magelord by losing caster progression as long as you increased your highest spell level to 5 through any trick of your choice. Magelord is only difficult to get into while maintaining full caster progression, but that's been solved with Incarnum pretty handily.

Versatile Domain Generalist is a first level Wizard with 9th (and lower) level spells. There is a link in my sig. So, you can afford to miss a couple of casting levels. I was being lazy when I said Rogue, I should have specified Feat Rogue Simple Variant, and then you don't have to Chaos Shuffle at 3rd level (which admittedly is a bit beyond WBL) since Weapon Focus is a Fighter Bonus feat.

So, it goes:

Elf Wizard1(Domain/Generalist/Simple)/Rogue2(Simple)

Flaw:Alacritous Cogitation
Flaw:Versatile Spellcaster
WB:Improved Initiative
1:Spell Mastery
2(RB):Weapon Focus Ray
3:Signature Spell (and Evasion as a Class Feature)