Warblade Gishing? Need a casting class!

[Rossebay]

So, I know I want Warblade 4 or 5/Casting Class 1/JPM with Precocious Apprentice early-entry cheese.

I want to be able to wear armor while casting without issue. I don't need AOE's very much, since my actions will be spent on Maneuvers and combat in general. I also have my own AOE source, if I really need it. Breath Weapon+Metabreath Feats+Breath Shaping feats and such.

The casting should synergize with the Warblade. I'd like Utility and Self-buffs. A healing mechanic may be nice, but I want JPM, so it's probably not possible.

Beguiler is on my list, but it lacks much buffing power, so I don't know. Additionally, I thought Warmage, but... Warmage is AOE. I don't know of any way to cast in Light (or Medium via Armored Mage) armor as a Wizard or Sorcerer, or I'd probably go for that.

Any ideas?

[Corlindale]

The Battle Sorceror (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) can cast in light armour and has access to all sorceror/wizard spells, though it gets fewer spells per day than a normal sorceror, but that's probably not too crippling for a gish, as you will have many other tricks besides spells.

[Rossebay]

The Battle Sorceror (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) can cast in light armour and has access to all sorceror/wizard spells, though it gets fewer spells per day than a normal sorceror, but that's probably not too crippling for a gish, as you will have many other tricks besides spells.

That's true, but it really limits my spellcasting even more than before.

Still, it goes on the list. Beguiler, Warmage, and Battle Sorcerer are all options right now.

EDIT: Via DM Fiat, we can add SotAOMR to the list, as I "qualify" at level 1 due to spellcasting starting up then. But that requires Wisdom, which was my dump stat for this character.

So... Yeah. Beguiler, Warmage, Battle Sorcerer, and SotAOMR.

[HunterOfJello]

Spellcasting failure chance is immaterial. There are armors and shields that you can use without having a class feature to take away a penalty. Armor and shields made out of mithril have -10% arcane spell failure chance. The Twilight enhancement which can be put on armor decreases arcane spell failure by another -10%. Use both and you can use light shields, bucklers, and light armors without an arcane spell failure chance.


I recommend Wizard or Beguiler for the Int stacking. Wizard also has a faster spell progression and can work with Precocious Apprentice.


I should also point out that the Jade Phoenix Mage only gains access to Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit maneuvers. If you enter the class without taking any levels in Swordsage, any levels in Crusader, or without taking Martial Study, then you will be forced to take low level maneuvers from those two disciplines since you won't have maneuvers known prerequisites to gain the higher level maneuvers.

I would therefore suggest that you take a dip into either Swordsage or Crusader (or both!) and then focus on one discipline and ignore the other. The higher level maneuvers in both disciplines are pretty good, but the lower level maneuvers are going to be sub-par once you get to higher levels.

[tyckspoon]

Would you/your DM be ok with just buying the ability instead? A mithral thistledown-padded (Races of the Wild, 5% ASF reduction) feycrafted or githcrafted (DMG 2 armor template, another 5%) chainshirt has 0 spell-failure, and a similarly treated breastplate gets down to just 5%. If you're willing to go all-in on it and get a much more expensive set of armor, there's also the Twilight magical property (Magic Item Compendium), a +1 equivalent that gives another 10% reduction (also a helpful option if your DM says you can't get ahold of fey or githcraft armor, which is a pretty reasonable ruling.)

For your casting, you really want the full Wiz/Sorc list; a lot of your best buffs are going to be found by sorting through the Spell Compendium and other sources, and you won't get those on the Beguiler/Warmage lists without begging your DM to add them in for you.

[hex0]

For the sake of completeness, I'd like to mention Knight of the Weave and Suel Arcanamach. If you can get and buyoff the template entry, Telflammor Shadowlord has a great list.

Also, Trickster Spellthief might be decent.

[Rossebay]

Mmm... Only Desert Wind/Devoted Spirit really hurts, haha. I didn't even notice that... That sort of murders my Tiger Claw/Iron Heart/Diamond Mind character plan. Oof.

Any ways to add another school to those that I have access to? Or would Desert Wind/Devoted Spirit be optimal for my character?

And *he* would be okay with me buying it, but I'd rather not throw my WBL away for that.

Edit: Swordsage'd.

Knight of the Weave and Telflammor Shadowlord? Never heard of those. I may consider Suel Arcanamach, anyway...

And what's Trickster Spellthief?

[hex0]

Knight of the Weave and Telflammor Shadowlord? Never heard of those. I may consider Suel Arcanamach, anyway...

And what's Trickster Spellthief?

Knight of the Weave: Heros of Valor

Telflammor Shadowlord: Unapproachable East

Suel Arcanamach: free online or in Complete Warrior

Trickster Spellthief: variant in Dragon 310, I think. Has bard-like spellcasting.

[herrhauptmann]

For the sake of completeness, I'd like to mention Knight of the Weave and Suel Arcanamach. If you can get and buyoff the template entry, Telflammor Shadowlord has a great list.

Also, Trickster Spellthief might be decent.

Suel would actually be a really good choice. 2 levels gets you second level spells. I think precocious early entry cheese means you can then qualify as if having 3rd level spells.
If you're looking for ways to reduce ASF:
You can buy it. Don't worry about it eating your WBL. After level 6, it's a miniscule expenditure.
Alternatively, you can use class features to do it. Suel Arcanamach has it, as does Spellsword (CWar)

[Rossebay]

Suel would actually be a really good choice. 2 levels gets you second level spells. I think precocious early entry cheese means you can then qualify as if having 3rd level spells.
If you're looking for ways to reduce ASF:
You can buy it. Don't worry about it eating your WBL. After level 6, it's a miniscule expenditure.
Alternatively, you can use class features to do it. Suel Arcanamach has it, as does Spellsword (CWar)

My worry, with all of this, is that my maneuvers fall far behind. Is that a worry?

Also, are Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind valuable in combat, or should I try to find a better way to Gish, using Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, and Iron Heart?

[Manateee]

Runesmith 1 makes a cool 6th level for Dwarf JPMs. It allows casting with any armor or shields. Requires Heavy Armor Proficiency though, but that doesn't hurt much - Crusader is way better for JPMs than Warblade anyway (even Wizards), due to its recovery mechanic and ability to check off Devoted Spirit prerequisites early. Runesmith is in Races of Stone.

Alternatively, a level dip in Urban Savant from Cityscape may allow armored casting in light armor at no caster level loss (though it may require Bardic Knowledge, at the DM's discretion).

[herrhauptmann]

My worry, with all of this, is that my maneuvers fall far behind. Is that a worry?

Also, are Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind valuable in combat, or should I try to find a better way to Gish, using Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, and Iron Heart?

Yes, your maneuvers will fall behind compared to a straight warblade. But who cares? You'll have spells and no ASF, which is farther above your maneuvers than your maneuvers are above regular melee.

But you know what, you don't lag as much as a multiclassed wizard would when compared to a straight wizard; since you get half initiator level even when multiclassing.

[Rossebay]

Right... I guess the majority of what bugs me is that my maneuvers will be coming from Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind. Are there any ways around this? Or, are the other schools just worse?

[Lord Ruby34]

You could ask your DM if you could use two other schools instead, that might land you closer to your character concept.

[herrhauptmann]

Right... I guess the majority of what bugs me is that my maneuvers will be coming from Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind. Are there any ways around this? Or, are the other schools just worse?

Ways around the school restriction? Not sure. Maybe by just limiting your JPM to a mere dip. Gotta ask yourself, how good are the other class abilities, do they seem worth a limited list of maneuvers and stances?

I'd say Devoted Spirit is one of the best disciplines. It's why you so many builds with late crusader dips. Personally I'm not a fan of Desert Wind thematically (or Tiger claw), so I'm not the best person to ask about the power.

[HunterOfJello]

Right... I guess the majority of what bugs me is that my maneuvers will be coming from Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind. Are there any ways around this? Or, are the other schools just worse?

By RAW, not really. I would ask your DM if you can add Stone Dragon to the class' list. Stone Dragon is on the discipline list of every initiator class. There's no real reason for it not to be on that list too.

I love the idea of a Initiator/Spellcaster gish, but gave up on it because of the maneuver restrictions. Ruby Knight Vindicators work much better in that respect.

You do have the option of doing a progression like Warblade X/Swordsage 1 or Crusader 1/Wizard 1/ JPM 5/Warblade X/_____ X .
If you dip back into Warblade or another class later on, you can gain more maneuvers there. It's a weird setup, but can work if you don't mind holding back on spellcasting progression and don't mind giving up Quickening Strike. Then again, Quickening Strike is seriously badass.

[Metahuman1]

Suggestion: Ask your DM if he would allow the Eldritch Knight PrC form the Dungeonmasters Guide to actually advance Maneuvers as well as BAB and spell casting all at the same time as it's class feature. That does make the PrC more powerful but it's kinda a sup-par Core PrC anyway except for some Nitch build.

A level each of Cleric and Barbarian are gonna help since you can score Knowledge or Strength Devotion, Turn undead attempts, Travel Devotion and Pounce.

If the Dm will go for the above suggestion, here's a build out idea off the top of my head.

Barbarian 1/ Cleric 1/ Wizard 1/ Warblade 3/ Eldritch Knight 10/ Wizard X/ Warblade X to Taste depending on if you really want to push for more spells or More Maneuvers or try to split the difference.

Advantage here is you Don't have to give up Iron Hear/Tiger Claw/Diamond Mind focus on the character, and it also means you can conceivably hit 9th lvl Maneuvers. And don't you ever underestimate a Self Buffed Natural Attack build that get's Raging Mongoose and Time stands still.



Other ideas:

See if he'd be willing to let you trade the schools Jade Phoenix Mage focuses on. Swat Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind or Iron Heart for Desert wind and Devoted Spirit. Boom, done.


Also, consider maybe instead of Arcane caster Gish going with Psionics.

[Rossebay]

Arcane Wrath and Quickening Strike are my two favorite class features that I've ever seen in any PrC.

Throw in Arcane Strike, and that's a lot of damage in a very small time-frame.

Yeah, I guess I'll ask him about switching up the schools it focuses on. That seems to be the best plan, honestly.

[HunterOfJello]

Arcane Wrath and Quickening Strike are my two favorite class features that I've ever seen in any PrC.

Throw in Arcane Strike, and that's a lot of damage in a very small time-frame.

Yeah, I guess I'll ask him about switching up the schools it focuses on. That seems to be the best plan, honestly.

Those 3 abilities definitely support a concept of a gish more than any other class feature or combination that I've seen in any other build.

[Feralventas]

Why not Bard? I know it doesn't get above 6th level spells, but it's class features have synergies with White Raven school stuff as well as having plenty of great buffs for themselves and the party. It also grants a better BAB than the standard casting fare, still has light armor with no ASF, and lots of support. (Snowflake Wardance, for example, or some of the later Persisted effects.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want Tiger Claw boosts, consider some dips into Bloodclaw Master, strategically positioned to gain specific maneuvers whenever your initiator level allows. Or, just mix in more Warblade later on, you can even trade out your Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit maneuvers gained via JPM at your 4th and later even-numbered Warblade levels.

Be good-aligned and cast (Extended) (Greater) Luminous Armor from BoED, and never worry about wearing armor again. If you have a spare feat, pick up Spell Thematics: Fire, and your Luminous Armor will appear as a blinding inferno of righteous fire rather than just shimmering armor of righteous light.

You could go CG and be sure to get JPM 5 at an initiator level of 11+ for Aura of Chaos, and use Arcane Strike (CW)...

[Rossebay]

If you want Tiger Claw boosts, consider some dips into Bloodclaw Master, strategically positioned to gain specific maneuvers whenever your initiator level allows. Or, just mix in more Warblade later on, you can even trade out your Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit maneuvers gained via JPM at your 4th and later even-numbered Warblade levels.

Be good-aligned and cast (Extended) (Greater) Luminous Armor from BoED, and never worry about wearing armor again. If you have a spare feat, pick up Spell Thematics: Fire, and your Luminous Armor will appear as a blinding inferno of righteous fire rather than just shimmering armor of righteous light.

You could go CG and be sure to get JPM 5 at an initiator level of 11+ for Aura of Chaos, and use Arcane Strike (CW)...

Yeah. This concept? It's going into my little folder of badassery. I'm going to pull this concept out next time I feel like making the Human Torch of melee combatants. +1 to you, sir. This is awesome.