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Cikomyr
2012-01-29, 09:33 PM
Hello people,

In the current Vampire game that just started, I play a Nosferatu Banker with massive influence with the Hanseatic League and the Venezian Merchant Network (through boons and deals with the Giovannis). The game starts in 1680, around Romania that will eventually move to France later in history.

The GM plans to give us long downtimes to build up influence and powers. Knowing that, I named my character Rothschild, and decided that my path was laid out for me. :smallamused:

Currently, I have my financial network and I lend/borrow money with Eastern European landlords. My group has their own political schlikts, mine is anythin finance-related.

History will march on. Any suggestions as to how become the great financial Moghul?

historical opportunities I have thought of:

- The Napoleonic Wars financing (both sides, obviously)
- The creation of a Central Bank in England
- The Tea/Opium Trade
- The Indian Companies (Dutch/English)
- Unification of Germany
- American expansion/industrialization

One that I thought also makes sense, in a specially morally bankrupted way, but hey, I'm a Vampire, would be the Colonial Slave Trade system. But please, I'd rather we don't discuss that specific topic.


Any other ideas?

Sith_Happens
2012-01-30, 02:46 AM
In the very short term, 1688-1689 is the Glorious Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorious_Revolution) in England. It's a bit geographically distant, but will probably make for a great playground for the entire parties' agendas.

Of course pretty much the entire 18th century is ripe for the exploiting, not least because of the large number of wars. Take a look. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18th_century) In particular, make sure to invest in a little thing called the American Revolution; circa 1790 the federal government will assume responsibility for all debts incurred during the war, which should be good for a lot of influence if you place your bets well.

You've already mentioned this, but the 19th century should consist mostly of getting all up in Britain's, Germany's, and the US's economic business.

Coidzor
2012-01-30, 03:18 AM
Sugar is going to become very profitable before much longer as consumption is going to skyrocket over the next century. Might even still be early enough in the game to have proxies establish new plantations or at least to finance such endeavours.

The Fur trade in the Americas would still be in its infancy as this point, IIRC, but being a financial backer would be another opportunity to get returns.

Asheram
2012-01-30, 07:03 AM
Hiring pirates and highwaymen to take out the competition, then processing the wares and selling through another company could be an idea.

Bagelson
2012-01-30, 07:42 AM
Establish central banks. Just start out with a charter from the government allowing you to set inflation interest and print paper money against the national gold/silver reserves. Proceed to lend money to the banks that they can use to lend to companies and private people. The government will be borrowing money from you, which they will pay to you to print money that everyone else will borrow. And everyone, absolutely everyone, will be paying you interest.

Once banking is pervasive enough the governments will even be kind enough to provide insurance to keep the economic system from collapsing.

Once you control enough banks you will literally control world finance.

Autolykos
2012-01-30, 10:10 AM
I'd find a resource that is somewhat rare, not shiny enough to attract lots of competition, but absolutely critical for certain applications. Then I'd try to gain control of as many mines/production sites as possible and corner the market. Sulfur and Saltpeter would be prime examples (can only be harvested economically in a few places and are absolutely critical for the production of fertilizer and gunpowder - at least before the Haber-Bosch-Process becomes invented and practical). Ivory, rubber, silk and whetstones should also work (Ivory and silk less so, because they are luxury goods and thus attract more attention).

EDIT: The critical step with central banks is convincing the governments that you can lend them more money if they pass laws so you don't actually need to *have* the money you're lending out.

EDIT2: Once you've gained control of the resource, try as hard as possible to prevent the invention of substitutes or alternative production methods. Lobby to get the government to crack down on alchemists and other witchfolk (or anything that looks vaguely similar). You can try to sell it with "security reasons": What if everyone could make their own gunpowder? That would be anarchy!
You can easily find real world examples nowadays, but the board rules prohibit discussing them here at length.

Urslingen
2012-01-30, 10:54 AM
If you really want to bring in the big bucks, exotic goods are not the way to go.

They bring in a huge amount for little work, sure, but total control over a industrial sector will, alltough requiring a far larger workforce, bring in a much larger amount of money.

Think about it. Ivory may be extremely valuable per kilogram, but the amount of money coming out of the ivory trade could never match (for example) the entire wood-cutting industry. There is simply to much of it in terms of raw numbers.

If you can completely corner one of the "basic-needs" of Europe, like ore-mining or wood-cutting - the income will be enormous. To achive this without attracting attention you can own several different companies under psuedonyms.

Peace Out.

-Urslingen

Autolykos
2012-01-30, 11:03 AM
If you can completely corner one of the "basic-needs" of Europe, like ore-mining or wood-cutting - the income will be enormous. To achive this without attracting attention you can own several different companies under psuedonyms.Resources like wood, iron ore, salt and coal are simply too abundant and occur in too many places to completely control their production. That's why I suggested semi-rare industrial resources like sulfur, saltpeter or rubber. Controlling the sulfur mines in Sicily alone would probably be enough to get incredibly rich (besides lemons, sulfur was one of the main sources of income in the early decades of the Mafia).

mcv
2012-01-30, 03:47 PM
It's 1680 and you are still involved in the Hanseatic League? Isn't that practically dead yet? Its height was in the 15th century, and its only downhill after that.

You should have gotten into the VOC in 1602. Largest corporation in the world for the next two centuries, has a monopoly on Asian trade. But from 1680 to about 1800, they too are going downhill, mostly due to widespread corruption. Might not be a great idea to start now, unless you manage to be one of the primary benefactors of the corruption.

I believe the VOC also invented life insurances. Might have been good to have gotten into that game early.

Coidzor
2012-01-30, 05:36 PM
Resources like wood, iron ore, salt and coal are simply too abundant and occur in too many places to completely control their production. That's why I suggested semi-rare industrial resources like sulfur, saltpeter or rubber. Controlling the sulfur mines in Sicily alone would probably be enough to get incredibly rich (besides lemons, sulfur was one of the main sources of income in the early decades of the Mafia).

That, and a diversified portfolio will make it harder to take you out of the game on any one front while you're getting the necessary wealth out of your investments to do something big with it.

Aron Times
2012-01-30, 07:37 PM
While we're at it, try and find a friendly Ventrue that can teach you Dominate. It's really useful especially if you don't overuse it.

Since I'm not a history or economics major, this is the only advice I can give that's relevant.

Diskhotep
2012-01-30, 08:50 PM
Here's a good article anyone interested in playing the long financial game ought to read:

http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2011/01/10/immortals-and-compound-interest/

It covers the problem an immortal can have making money over the long term.

Alejandro
2012-01-31, 02:09 PM
Several people have already given good suggestions. One other one:

From your start date, 1680, all the way through 1800 (roughly) one of the most profitable things you can do (again, other than the things above) is be involved in shipbuilding, and the raw materials that are needed for ships.

- Timber
- Pitch
- Sailcloth/mechanized weaving
- Metal parts, which will lead to standardized parts (especially in the British Royal Navy) and, eventually, mass production

Every world power with a navy will need these things desperately, as will every enormous company, such as the ones created by the British, French, and Dutch in India and Indonesia. It was not uncommon for the persons in charge of ship construction, shipyards, or the materials that went into ships, to have access to the monarch themselves.

In fact, one reason for England's interest in the 13 Colonies (later America) was ready access to large amounts of tall timber for ship masts, and to pine and fir trees for pitch and tar.

mcv
2012-02-01, 10:52 AM
It was not uncommon for the persons in charge of ship construction, shipyards, or the materials that went into ships, to have access to the monarch themselves.
Sometimes it's even the other way around. In 1697, Tsar Peter the Great travelled incognito through several European countries to learn as much about shipbuilding as possible. It was that important.

Alejandro
2012-02-01, 04:54 PM
Sometimes it's even the other way around. In 1697, Tsar Peter the Great travelled incognito through several European countries to learn as much about shipbuilding as possible. It was that important.

Yes! Thank you, fellow history person. :)

Basically, for that time period, sailing ships were the Internet. Everything in the modern world, with only a few exceptions, depended on them.

Sith_Happens
2012-02-02, 01:58 AM
Yes! Thank you, fellow history person. :)

Basically, for that time period, sailing ships were the Internet. Everything in the modern world, with only a few exceptions, depended on them.

He who controls the ships controls the hemisphere?:smallwink:

Alejandro
2012-02-02, 10:25 AM
Oh, and something else no one has mentioned yet: You'll have to wait 20 years for it to start (in 1700-1701) but the War of Spanish Succession will cause uproar throughout Europe and also somewhat in North America (Queen Anne's War there.)

A lot of European states, and Western concepts of war and diplomacy, stem from this war. Spain, France, England, the Netherlands, Austria-Hungary, and the Germanic states were all involved.

STsinderman
2012-02-04, 01:08 PM
I know you mentioned that you don't want to talk about it but i know from past experience that the slave trade is an excellent way to make money in vampire, while at the same time providing ample supply's of blood. Not to mention that as that would slowly build you a fleet, the easy transition into shipping is a great option.

Slipperychicken
2012-02-05, 04:29 PM
Buy up all the oil rights in the to-be OPEC countries, they'll come in handy later.

Get patent/copyrights on factories, steam engines, and the like, and offer lots of cash for them.

Land speculation, gold/mineral rights in California.

Insider trading worked back then (I think).

Bribe the sh*t out of regulatory officials, call in favors.

Acquire all banks. Monopolize banking. Create central banks for each country. Get governments to ensure deposits.

You're right in time to buy up/commission Stradivarius instruments, lend them for extortionate prices and demand performances.

J.S. Bach should be born in around 5 years. Wait 15-20 years, buy the rights to all his music, profit.

Ormur
2012-02-05, 07:33 PM
The returns on investment in the early industrial revolution could supposedly be enormous, at least for those that got in at the right time. So invest in English cotton mills in the 1770's and 80's.

Autolykos
2012-02-07, 06:12 PM
Get patent/copyrights on factories, steam engines, and the like, and offer lots of cash for them.

[...]

J.S. Bach should be born in around 5 years. Wait 15-20 years, buy the rights to all his music, profit.At a time when most countries didn't give a rat's ass about copyright/patents, this would probably be a waste of time at best and might even hurt you by slowing progress in the countries you're doing business in.

Sergeantbrother
2012-02-07, 10:50 PM
Look around the Internet a bit and read some conspiracy theory websites. They will likely give you some good inspiration on financial domination ideas.

zorba1994
2012-02-07, 11:33 PM
Divest from France as much as possible. Then, during the Reign of Terror, reinvest for pennies on the dollar, which will become huge once Napoleon rolls around. As soon as he starts making for Russia, divest again. Do not reinvest.

STsinderman
2012-02-08, 07:10 AM
In truth there are hundreds of ideas that would work. However just remember that unless you have access to someone with clairvoyance, you wont be able to use any prior knowledge. No to mention that if you do sneak anything you don't know into the game the dm can simply say that events are different in this universe as influenced by kindred.

gkathellar
2012-02-08, 09:02 AM
Run a weapons company during the Cold War?

mcv
2012-02-09, 10:37 AM
If acting on knowledge of the future isn't allowed, then you have to consider what an immortal with good economic sense would probably do. Quite likely, he'll have seen the impact of money, the Medici, the Templars, and he might understand the impact that might have on the very long term.

It makes sense to check out everywhere where a lot of money is involved, but he also needs to develop a good sense of when it's time to get out. He needs good private sources of information. Recognize when a new frontier is being opened, and figure out a way to invest and reap profits. But also recognize when a system might be past its peak and it's time to get out. Or maybe even profit from the collapse!

Cikomyr
2012-02-09, 10:18 PM
Divest from France as much as possible. Then, during the Reign of Terror, reinvest for pennies on the dollar, which will become huge once Napoleon rolls around. As soon as he starts making for Russia, divest again. Do not reinvest.

Or invest in armament suppliers and research... Supply Nappy with loans and weapons so he can pillage and burn the Vampire havens I want.

Yup, lost money, but sooo much cleansing possible. :smallamused:

Lucid Inebriate
2012-02-10, 06:40 PM
Oh, and something else no one has mentioned yet: You'll have to wait 20 years for it to start (in 1700-1701) but the War of Spanish Succession will cause uproar throughout Europe and also somewhat in North America (Queen Anne's War there.)

A lot of European states, and Western concepts of war and diplomacy, stem from this war. Spain, France, England, the Netherlands, Austria-Hungary, and the Germanic states were all involved.

Austria-Hungary participated in the War of the Spanish Succession? As someone whose passion is history, I'm rather surprised. I had no idea that the eighteenth century Habsburgs were able to collude with their nineteenth century counterparts. Even more surprising is that they still lost against the Bourbons even with time travel.

Sith_Happens
2012-02-11, 05:51 AM
Austria-Hungary participated in the War of the Spanish Succession? As someone whose passion is history, I'm rather surprised. I had no idea that the eighteenth century Habsburgs were able to collude with their nineteenth century counterparts. Even more surprising is that they still lost against the Bourbons even with time travel.

Step One for achieving financial domination: Steal Austrian time machine.:smalltongue:

kieza
2012-02-11, 01:13 PM
If you have a month or two to prepare, I would suggest reading Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle. Several thousand pages of literary goodness, much of which deals with c. 1700 European economics.

Spacewolf
2012-02-11, 02:00 PM
Invest heavily in copper in britain and generally in sugar then when britian copper bottoms the hulls of their ships your in the money

Aux-Ash
2012-02-12, 04:56 PM
In order to gain financial control I think your vampire will have to chance/expand into new businesses very often and constantly be on the move to meet new people, finance new projects and look for new opportunities.

In the late 17th your vampire really should leave the Hansa and the Venician trade league behind, because both are slowly dying. The former being outcompeted with wood, hemp and tar from the americas and the latter from the East India Companies.
Using the information at the time, he should be focusing on Spices and Porcelain (East India Companies), Sugar and Tobacco (and indirectly; slavery) and Dutch banking. The United Provinces (the netherlands) are -the- place to be at this time.

Sure, all of Europe needs grain, timber, iron and salt. But these markets means competing with the noble and royal houses (and not unlikely, other vampires) since a lot of mines and land is owned by them.

As the 18th starts, focus should probably be shifted to the textile industry and getting a foot in the early industrialisation. As well as increasing influence in banking. The real money (and power) lie in handing out huge loans. If you can you should aim at loaning money to nations, rather than aim at trade (though you need to build a massive fortune first).

Then it's a matter of expanding the banking business (and getting a foot in the early stock market). The goal is to make sure that the major industries of the 19th owe you. And preferably: kingdoms (and republics).

mcv
2012-02-13, 02:12 PM
In the late 17th your vampire really should leave the Hansa and the Venician trade league behind, because both are slowly dying.
Slowly dying? The Hansa may have been slowly dying in the 14th or 15th century. 1680 is after their last meaningful meeting. They're dead.


Using the information at the time, he should be focusing on Spices and Porcelain (East India Companies), Sugar and Tobacco (and indirectly; slavery) and Dutch banking. The United Provinces (the netherlands) are -the- place to be at this time.
They have been the place to be for the past century. After 1680, it's also headed downward. England is taking over as the world's dominant sea power.

Alejandro
2012-02-13, 06:17 PM
Austria-Hungary participated in the War of the Spanish Succession? As someone whose passion is history, I'm rather surprised. I had no idea that the eighteenth century Habsburgs were able to collude with their nineteenth century counterparts. Even more surprising is that they still lost against the Bourbons even with time travel.

The OP said the campaign begins in 1680. The War of Spanish Succession ran from 1701 to 1714. Austria-Hungary under Leopold I fought in the war, against France and the Spanish wanting unification with France.

I suppose it should be called the Holy Roman Empire or the Habsburg Monarchy at the time, yes.

Aux-Ash
2012-02-14, 02:34 PM
Slowly dying? The Hansa may have been slowly dying in the 14th or 15th century. 1680 is after their last meaningful meeting. They're dead.

True enough. There was still trade going between the largest of the kontors, but the establishment of the new world colonies broke the Hansa. I was mostly referring to the venetians (but worded that poorly, I'll admit).


They have been the place to be for the past century. After 1680, it's also headed downward. England is taking over as the world's dominant sea power.

But it wasn't sea power that was the reason I suggested the Netherlands. It was the financial power of Antwerp and Amsterdam. London hasn't quite taken over in that field in 1680 and thus there's a few decades left to build a massive banking enterprise before it's time to move to London.

That said... having resources, contacts and agents in London is absolutely paramount. Because as you say, the world's sea power is going to shift over to the British East India Company and the Royal Navy.

It just doesn't have to be his headquarters yet.

Aergoth
2012-02-14, 04:15 PM
Be able to shift your focus. So what this means is that what you're making money off of selling isn't necessarily what's important, it's how you make. Slave trading gives you ships. You can just as easily move settlers to the new world or trade in things like tea.

Make money from wars! The next few hundred years are going to be hardly the most peaceful in human history, and there's no reason that the man selling the bullets, blankets and bandages can't make a buck.

If the game hits the industrial revolution, you invest in factories. What's turning out sheets or sewing machines one day, is turning out bullets and tanks for the war effort the next.

Ormur
2012-02-14, 06:19 PM
Just don't invest everything in the South Sea company, at least not in 40 years or so.

Hida Reju
2012-02-15, 03:33 AM
Well if you want to control wealth then there is only really one major way to do it.

Land Ownership and investing in Government to keep it.

You have to own the land and have enough people working for you in the local Government to keep it intact. Then you have to own enough land in enough country to avoid the inevitable revolutions. But then rent the land to the people that work on it and you can even be fair about and turn a tidy profit.

Chilingsworth
2012-02-15, 04:21 AM
Just how much prior knowledge are you being allowed, OP?

mcv
2012-02-15, 05:16 AM
Make money from wars! The next few hundred years are going to be hardly the most peaceful in human history, and there's no reason that the man selling the bullets, blankets and bandages can't make a buck.
Absolutely. Did you know that the Dutch revolution against Spain was partially funded by Dutch merchants selling weapons to Spain, and hiring German mercenaries with their profits?


Just don't invest everything in the South Sea company, at least not in 40 years or so.
Don't invest everything in any one single place anyway. An investor will always lose in some places, and that's okay as long as you win big enough in other places. It's about taking risks, and spreading risk.

Saintheart
2012-02-16, 07:38 AM
The Rothschild -- Nathan Rothschild -- started as a smuggler, getting gold to Europe from England past Napoleon's blockades, which was at a premium since the "gold standard" actually existed back then, making it the ultimate hedge against currency devaluations and manias. The British government drew on his experience and had him collect a massive quantity of gold and silver, about 600,000 pounds, from France. This he did by utilising the credit networks, and actually raised more like 1.2 million. They did this because his brothers all had banks across Europe at the time, which meant they were well placed to explot price and exchange rate differences. They got hefty commissions out of raising the money.

The legend is that Nathan Rothschild took the world's biggest bet: he speculated, in effect, on the outcome of the battle at Waterloo.

The book The Ascent of Money puts it this way:

According to a long-standing legend, the Rothschild family owed the first millions of their fortune to Nathan's successful speculation about the effect of the outcome of the battle on British bonds. In some versions of the story, Nathan witnessed the battle himself, risked a Channel storm to reach London ahead of the news of Wellington's victory, and, by buying bonds ahead of a huge surge in prices, pocketed between 20 and 135 million pounds.

The book then goes on to say it was actually the opposite in reality. The Rothschilds were expecting the war to go on a lot longer after Waterloo, and they had a massive pile of gold they'd stocked up on - gold that nobody needed, to pay for a war that was over. The coalition of allies dissolved and the armies started to go home. The price of gold, which had gone through the roof during the war, was bound to fall.

So they made the world's biggest bet on the bond market: that the price of British bonds would soar since the British government wouldn't be borrowing any money to finance its wars anymore. For one whole year he went on a bond-buying spree, offloading the gold for bonds. Eventually, in late 1817, with bond prices up more than 40%, he sold. In inflation-adjusted terms he had a profit of 600 million pounds. It was, as Niall Ferguson puts it in the book, "one of the most audacious trades in financial history, one which snatched financial history from the jaws of Napoleon's military defeat."

Short version: trade on the bond market ahead of the market. If there's a war coming, governments have to issue bonds, they have to borrow money. If you know ahead of the market what the result of a decisive battle is, you have an inside track on which direction bond prices will go. If the country whose bonds you have wins a decisive battle, their bond prices should go up since the government won't need to borrow as much money -- less bonds means less supply, and therefore a higher price. If the country whose bonds you have loses a decisive battle, bond prices should fall since to try and recover from the loss the country will probably have to issue more bonds to reinforce their army. More bonds = more supply = lower price.

Bond markets and currency prices are where the Rothschilds made their fortunes, because governments had the biggest monetary reserves, and thus the greatest economies of scale. As a vampire, you can go all night, presumably all day with the right associates, and reach places ahead of the market's knowledge.

Sith_Happens
2012-02-17, 03:37 AM
[Stuff about (literally) exploiting the world's reliance on snail-mail for fun and profit.]

That. Is. EPIC. Do vampires have any supernatural means of instant long-distance communication?

Ormur
2012-02-17, 07:45 AM
Just this week I watched the Comte de Monte Cristo miniseries where the count bankrupts Danglars the banker by bribing a telegraph operator (semaphore) to report trouble in Spain where there is none causing him to sell all his Spanish bonds at a loss.

polity4life
2012-02-17, 10:18 AM
If you are going to take the central banking route, and I cannot stress this enough, then you have to make a push to force governments to collateralize the interest payments to you with taxes. That is, governments must use taxation as a means of raising revenue to make interest payments to you.

Once you reach that point of opulence and wealth, then you really have control over all markets because you literally control the amount of cash in the market. You can then cause booms and busts all you want to buy assets of all kinds low after you cause a market crash by restricting lending then dump cash into the market to spur economic growth, as well as price growth, then sell those same assets, sometimes to the original seller, high.

You are devious Mr. Red Shield. Devious.

comicshorse
2012-02-17, 11:55 AM
That. Is. EPIC. Do vampires have any supernatural means of instant long-distance communication?

Astral Travel (Auspex 5) is hugely fast, if dangerous to use.
Protean 4 and turn into a bat and given you can fly over bad terrain and in a straight line to where you need to go is probably going to be better than any horse rider.
Not instantaneous but still enough to give you a jump any other speculators

DaragosKitsune
2012-02-17, 10:29 PM
Astral Travel (Auspex 5) is hugely fast, if dangerous to use.
Protean 4 and turn into a bat and given you can fly over bad terrain and in a straight line to where you need to go is probably going to be better than any horse rider.
Not instantaneous but still enough to give you a jump any other speculators

Alternatively, entertain a Malkavian for 20 minutes, then ask him to pass along the message. This is also quite risky, as something is bound to be lost in the Malkavian Network and your message might get places you don't want it to, but it's nigh instantaneous if enough Malks are traveling in random directions.