[PF] Nonlethal combat options (for level 3 paladin)

[Almaseti]

So last session my character got a heck of a bombshell dropped on her. Near the start, she got this magic weapon thing soul-bound to her so that it oozes bonuses into every weapon my paladin touches, and of course I thought this was made of awesome. She didn't ask for it, and was initially sort of freaked out by it, but the person who explained what was going on (who she trusted) didn't mention the soul-sucking thing, and acted like it was weird that she was bothered by having every weapon she touches start glowing and killing stuff better.

It turns out it sucks the souls out of anything she kills to power itself and partially revive the person who created it.

Which she found out after an encounter with a group of bandits who decided they couldn't just settle things peacefully, because they were also a bunch of rapists who wouldn't let a group containing a woman go by without having forcible sex with her. Though they were apparently willing to settle for the halfling rogue that looked like a little kid.

I don't really think smiting was inappropriate in that situation. But I digress.

So she's going to want to be very, very careful not to actually kill anything that isn't already dead. I'm currently level 3, paladin, pathfinder, probably will reach level 4 in the next three sessions, in a city-like place that probably has equipment for sale, things are pretty low-magic so I can't assume useful magic items are available. Besides taking a -4 on attack rolls (with a lethal weapon she isn't really going to want to use on anything that isn't skeletal or rotting) what advice can I get on ways to fight living opponents that don't risk killing them (or at least me killing them)?

The soul-bound weapon thing, as I said, drips bonuses varying on what I'm fighting (+1d6 damage against undead after I've destroyed a couple and the sword has absorbed enough negative energy, +1 to hit and damage for each living person killed, something else against evil outsiders, I haven't fought them enough to know) with the flaw of making the weapon break on a natural 1.

Can you help me, playground?

[Psyren]

Take the Subduing StrikeBoED feat, or you could shell out to get the merciful property added to the weapon.

[Mystify]

So last session my character got a heck of a bombshell dropped on her. Near the start, she got this magic weapon thing soul-bound to her so that it oozes bonuses into every weapon my paladin touches, and of course I thought this was made of awesome.

Turns out it sucks the souls out of anything she kills to power itself and partially revive the person who created it.

Which she found out after an encounter with a group of bandits who decided they couldn't just settle things peacefully, because they were also a bunch of rapists who wouldn't let a group containing a woman go by without having forcible sex with her. Though they were apparently willing to settle for the halfling rogue that looked like a little kid.

I don't really think smiting was inappropriate in that situation. But I digress.

So she's going to want to be very, very careful not to actually kill anything that isn't already dead. I'm currently level 3, probably will reach level 4 in the next three sessions, in a city-like place that probably has equipment for sale, things are pretty low-magic so I can't assume useful magic items are available. Besides taking a -4 on attack rolls (with a lethal weapon she isn't really going to want to use on anything that isn't skeletal or rotting) what advice can I get on ways to fight living opponents that don't risk killing them (or at least me killing them)?

The soul-bound weapon thing, as I said, drips bonuses varying on what I'm fighting (+1d6 damage against undead after I've destroyed a couple and the sword has absorbed enough negative energy, +1 to hit and damage for each living person killed, something else against evil outsiders, I haven't fought them enough to know) with the flaw of making the weapon break on a natural 1.
You could take improved unarmed strike, or dip into monk, and punch things to death. You could also use a nonlethal weapon, like a sap(they are martial, so you should be proficient),or whip(though they fail against armor).

[Almaseti]

I should make sure to mention that it's Pathfinder, and a low-magic setting, and she doesn't actually have that much cash on her at the moment. If our cleric returns, she could be able to talk him into making her a merciful weapon, but getting the cash may take some work.

I'm thinking about taking the divine bond to attach a merciful property whenever I have to fight something that isn't undead, but the whole "breaks on a natural 1" thing could lead to a lot of month-long loss of the feature, and plus it seems like a waste of a class feature and I kind of wanted a mount.

[Ravens_cry]

Pathfinder has quite a few options for non-lethal combat. Aside from manoeuvres, several spells do non-lethal damage, a feat line that gives massive bonuses to sneak attacking (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bludgeoner-combat) non-lethally (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-adept-combat) with bludgeoning weapons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-master-combat) and there is a zero level increase metamagic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/merciful-spell-metamagic) to turn your spells damage

[Almaseti]

I'd rather not dip into different classes, but using maneuvers looks promising. What are good ways to optimize that?

Also, bludgeoner looks very nice. I probably will grab that once I get to fifth level, unless I can talk my DM into letting me retrain something somehow. He usually makes us give something up if we want to do that. But that's a level and a half away.

[Chained Birds]

Buy a sap. It's cheap and pretty much any equipment store will have them, especially if the town or city have a local guard.

Deals nonlethal damage without penalty. This is probably your cheapest option at the moment, excluding taking a -4 penalty on attacks.

[Coidzor]

Hmm, that's a GM to keep an eye on.

Back in 3.X, the designers and later writings gave credence to the idea of knock-out poisons being OK for Paladins. Can't recall if the PF designers have more or less of a stick up their butts about it though, but that's one angle that's more expensive and less effective than just knocking them out with non-lethal damage.

Wait, does it get the souls even if you don't strike the killing blow? Combination of lethal damage from the rest of the party and non-lethal from you would still work to a certain extent for things that can be offed with nonlethal.

Making sure you stabilize downed enemies rather than let them die/slitting their throats would be another level of safety net, as even if they're down, unless they're getting gibbed, they're likely to still be in the negatives somewhere for a few rounds before they kick the bucket. This gets less likely as you go up in level, but being as you're level 3 now, worthwhile to get the GM to not auto-assume they're dead.

Leaves you rather out of luck with regards to undead unless they don't go to feed the monster box.

[Clawhound]

Take the Subduing StrikeBoED feat, or you could shell out to get the merciful property added to the weapon.

Mini-Rant: I never understood why a paladin just doesn't get that feat by default. Same with the monk.

[Ravens_cry]

Mini-Rant: I never understood why a paladin just doesn't get that feat by default. Same with the monk.
With their unarmed strikes, they (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#unarmedStrike) do. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk#TOC-Unarmed-Strike)

Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll.
(Bolded for emphases)

[Telonius]

Really not sure how PF interacts with 3.5 in this case ... but BoED also has the "Truncheon," a one-handed martial melee weapon that deals subdual damage. Very cheap, d8 damage. Unlike the sap, it's not a Light weapon, which means you can wield it two-handed for 2x power attack. As a Paladin, you're proficient in it.

EDIT: The only unfortunate thing is that they're pretty heavy, so carrying a golf-bag of them isn't the best idea. If you can get a Quiver of Ehlonna it ought to fit in the large compartment, though, so you can get a new one fairly easily if one of them breaks.

[Greenish]

The only unfortunate thing is that they're pretty heavy, so carrying a golf-bag of them isn't the best idea. If you can get a Quiver of Ehlonna it ought to fit in the large compartment, though, so you can get a new one fairly easily if one of them breaks.I don't recall the truncheon having any special breaking rules. :smallconfused:

[Telonius]

I don't recall the truncheon having any special breaking rules. :smallconfused:

OP's special magic item makes things break on a 1.

[Randomguy]

I don't recall the truncheon having any special breaking rules. :smallconfused:

The evil weapon thing makes it break on a natural one.

I'd also say a truncheon would be best, but keep a sap or two for back up weapons, and if you want to tip towards the professional demonslayer/undead slayer angle, then keep a sword or mace on you for killing evil outsiders and undead.

[Feralventas]

Improved Unarmed Strike and unarmed combat works for dealing non-lethal damage as well as making grappling a good option. With Paladin's full BAB, and presuming a decent strength score, you should be able to win that fairly easily. Low magic setting means you won't need to worry much about things like Freedom of Movement or Polymorph. Putting a few feats into Improved Grapple and associated feats might be a good idea (though I advise against the Neck Breaker option from Ultimate Combat). It might also be worth looking at the combat style feats to see if any of them grant options for holding your target down instead of taking them apart.

Alternatively, switch to a reach weapon with the Trip quality, take improved trip and go into the Combat Reflexes and Cleave line. If I'm right in guessing you picked the Bonded Weapon instead of the mount (or will when you get it), then you can also put the Merciful enhancement on your weapon so that you deal non-lethal damage with it as well. Over-all effect
Trip a target, it drops, cleave to the next, trip, it drops, etc, now every foe near you is on the ground. They try to get up? AOO, trip, stay down. Target next to him gets up? Combat Reflexes, more where that came from. Still need to fight, or can't trip something? Poke it with non-lethal until its down, tie it up, haul it off to jail.

[Mystify]

Improved Unarmed Strike and unarmed combat works for dealing non-lethal damage as well as making grappling a good option. With Paladin's full BAB, and presuming a decent strength score, you should be able to win that fairly easily. Low magic setting means you won't need to worry much about things like Freedom of Movement or Polymorph. Putting a few feats into Improved Grapple and associated feats might be a good idea (though I advise against the Neck Breaker option from Ultimate Combat). It might also be worth looking at the combat style feats to see if any of them grant options for holding your target down instead of taking them apart.

Alternatively, switch to a reach weapon with the Trip quality, take improved trip and go into the Combat Reflexes and Cleave line. If I'm right in guessing you picked the Bonded Weapon instead of the mount (or will when you get it), then you can also put the Merciful enhancement on your weapon so that you deal non-lethal damage with it as well. Over-all effect
Trip a target, it drops, cleave to the next, trip, it drops, etc, now every foe near you is on the ground. They try to get up? AOO, trip, stay down. Target next to him gets up? Combat Reflexes, more where that came from. Still need to fight, or can't trip something? Poke it with non-lethal until its down, tie it up, haul it off to jail.
When someone provokes an AoO for standing, they are still prone, so you can't trip them again.

[Feralventas]

Dang. Oh well, at least she can hit them for getting up, maybe make an intimidation check to convince them to stay down in the first place. Taking Wild Talent and Stand Still probably isn't an option either because of the prerequisites and limited feats available (as well as being 3.x instead of PF, but w/e). Then again, those might only apply to movements about the field rather than vertical.

[Coidzor]

OP's special magic item makes things break on a 1.

Make Whole (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/makeWhole.html) and Mending (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mending) will take care of it getting broken though mending would take a few levels/CL boosters to be on the field.

As, unfortunately, the rules on undoing the broken condition are kind of borked right now due to poor writing.

[Greenish]

OP's special magic item makes things break on a 1.Ah. Well, you could make it out of Aurorum. :smalltongue:

[Big Fau]

Denneith Warden (Dragonmarked) is extremely good for nonlethal combat.

[Feralventas]

Make Whole (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/makeWhole.html) and Mending (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mending) will take care of it getting broken though mending would take a few levels/CL boosters to be on the field.

As, unfortunately, the rules on undoing the broken condition are kind of borked right now due to poor writing.

I don't know if it would help the situation, but a single level in PF's Cleric with the Artifice domain lets you fix everything forever with an at-will Mending ability.

[Crasical]

Seconding getting a Sap for now and picking up Bludgeoning for later as fairly unobtrusive ways to resolve the issue.

However, I'm not sure how much it'll help. Your DM managed to goad you into cleave-and-smite mode with those bandits pretty easily, I don't know how long it will them take to push you into a situation where you'll knowingly or unknowingly feed more power into the enchantment and revive whatever evil sorcerer created it.

[Coidzor]

^: Well, it's a foregone conclusion, the only thing to do is to try to level up as much as possible in the mean time so as to be able to defeat the thing.

This is, of course, assuming that the DM isn't goading you on a path to somehow seal the artifact or whatever with some kind of "noble sacrifice" or something by tossing the paladin into Mt. Doom.
I don't know if it would help the situation, but a single level in PF's Cleric with the Artifice domain lets you fix everything forever with an at-will Mending ability.

This thing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains/artifice-domain)? :smallconfused: Mending is already a cleric Orison though, and the domain ability doesn't seem to say it gets around the weight restriction that Mending has.

Coincidentally, that domain has a spell, Instant Summons, that it cannot use, as the cleric does not gain Arcane Mark as an orison, at least, not without taking the Two-World Magic trait for the Mwangi Expanse(?) which lets them take a 0th level spell from another class's spell list. :smallyuk:

[Circle of Life]

There's a Trait for that.™ (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/blade-of-mercy-goddess-of-dawn)

[Almaseti]

On the DM and game in general: It's not a totally sucky power, it DOES lead to a lot of undead ass-kicking. I think he didn't actually expect me to kill the bandits. It was actually a touch out of character, but we'd had a couple rp-heavy sessions and we all kind of wanted a little combat. But I still think that NPC cleric should have warned me about this when I asked her.

I'm not going to be too hard on him though, he's been pretty generous in other ways (there was one part of a dungeon that involved a lot of falling down pits and stuff. My paladin and her heavy armor were so good at it, I got an achievement, and now ignore the first 10 feet worth of falling damage every time I fall.) and I think the bandit thing was more a case of not thinking everything all the way through. I actually asked for some more combat anyhow.

So I don't REALLY blame him, but if I decide on her developing some mildly suicidal tendencies, I'm going to try to give the rest of the group a chance to notice before we're in a really climactic fight.

And the guy who made the sword isn't the BBEG, the sword is actually supposed to be a weapon specially made to destroy the BBEG. By destroying his soul. With power gained by destroying souls.

So I suppose I'm going to stick with a sap for now, unless I can talk the DM into making truncheons available so I can still use my power attack, and take bludgeoning as soon as I possibly can if I can't lay my hands on a merciful weapon. Still kinda don't want to get a divine bond because of the whole weapon breaking thing. I don't want to get stuck on a lot of months of -1s and loss of class feature.

Plus it makes me think the sword would get a little crowded, and then I'm worried I won't be able to take it seriously.