[PF] Making Offense-Oriented Paladin

[AvianMalkavian]

Still trying to come up with a character for an upcoming campaign, and I've decided to go with the Paladin. While I know that they've generally been considered a defensive class, I was hoping to go with a more 'avenging holy knight'-style concept. Most likely making use of two-handed weapons rather than a sword & board.

What feats, archetypes, prestige classes, and the like would help here? Keep in mind that I'm only making use of Pathfinder material. The game is 20 point-buy and I was looking to play a Half-Orc.

Any help here would be truly appreciated!

[Mystify]

Oath of vengence can get you more smites, and pathfinder smites are made of pure awesome.

Is there any particular reason you chose paladin over inquisitor? Inquistors are very similar flavorwise, but can be much more offensively geared.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Generally defensive? Sword n' board? Which forums have you been on?

There are no abilities for protecting allies, except for the archetypical lockdown build which fighter and crusader do better.

Sword n' board is just generally bad

But that's beside the point.

Do not. Use. An Archetype. Or a PrC either. The vanilla paladin is the best thing Pathfinder ever did. Then they turned around and made the paladin archetypes. Maybe that one leader type would be good in a party that makes lots of attack rolls, but it's not better than the regular. Then again, I haven't looked at any of the oaths.

Take Power Attack. Later take Furious Focus. Take Lightning Reflexes and Improved Lightning Reflexes to make up for your poor reflex save, or dip two levels of rogue or monk. Get a Cloak of Charisma, for bonus spells and better saving throws. Maybe take Toughness if you can't think of anything else, since it's decent in Pathfinder.

[Bovine Colonel]

Generally defensive? Sword n' board? Which forums have you been on?

There are no abilities for protecting allies, except for the archetypical lockdown build which fighter and crusader do better.

Sword n' board is just generally bad

But that's beside the point.

Do not. Use. An Archetype. Or a PrC either. The vanilla paladin is the best thing Pathfinder ever did. Then they turned around and made the paladin archetypes. Maybe that one leader type would be good in a party that makes lots of attack rolls, but it's not better than the regular. Then again, I haven't looked at any of the oaths.

Take Power Attack. Later take Furious Focus. Take Lightning Reflexes and Improved Lightning Reflexes to make up for your poor reflex save, or dip two levels of rogue or monk. Get a Cloak of Charisma, for bonus spells and better saving throws. Maybe take Toughness if you can't think of anything else, since it's decent in Pathfinder.

Addendum:

Actually, as Mystify mentioned, Oath of Vengeance is decent. It's not like you'll ever need Channel Positive Energy anyway, and more smites = better. The nerfed Aura of Justice does hurt a bit, but only if you're in a melee-heavy party.

If you'd like to gank enemies at the start of combat but have less consistent damage, and you're sure to be able to fit a mount into a dungeon, I'd recommend choosing the mount for Divine Bond. It takes a lot of feats (Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, and Spirited Charge are mandatory, Power Attack and Furious Focus are super useful) but assuming you're two-handing a lance you can do triple your normal damage (including 1.5x your presumably high Str, 3 times your penalty from Power Attack without actually taking said penalty, and your smite damage[!]). In other words, as long as you can charge the other guy is dead, but the idea only really comes online at later levels unless you dip Fighter or go Human. Also, since you get Divine Bond at level 5, don't try it before then.

If you'd like more consistency, the weapon bond isn't bad either. A Speed Greatsword is always nice, as is a <energy type the other guy doesn't resist> Burst Keen Falchion. This also requires less feats, which you can spend on other stuff (Lightning Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Extra Lay on Hands).

[AvianMalkavian]

Here's what I've got in mind, thus far:

Sir Albert, Level 7 Half-Orc Paladin of Tyr.

Abilities:

STR: 18
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 16

(+2 to STR for Half-Orc stat bonus, +1 to CON at 4th level, and +2 to CHA because of a house rule that gives a +2 to an ability stat (though not the same one you chose for your race) if someone in the party plays a powerful, non-standard, race like Aasimar, Tieflings, Goliaths and the like).

Mercies: Sickened & Fatigued

Divine Bond: Weapon

Skills:

Diplomacy 4 (+10)
Heal 1 (+4)
Intimidate 2 (+15)
Knowledge (nobles) 1 (+4)
Knowledge (religion) 2 (+5)
Sense Motive 2 (+5)
Spellcraft 1 (+4)

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Intimidating Prowess & Toughness.

Spells: 1st - Bless Weapon, Divine Favor. 2nd - Bull's Strength.

[Bovine Colonel]

Diplomacy 4 (+10)
Heal 1 (+4)
Intimidate 2 (+15)
Knowledge (nobles) 1 (+4)
Knowledge (religion) 2 (+5)
Sense Motive 2 (+5)
Spellcraft 1 (+4)

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Intimidating Prowess & Toughness.

Spells: 1st - Bless Weapon, Divine Favor. 2nd - Bull's Strength.[/SPOILER]
I'd drop the point from Spellcraft, since there's no reason you'll use it (being a divine partial caster and all that). Heal as well, since you've got Lay on Hands and Cure Light Wounds (hopefully from a wand)

I'd also knock off Intimidating Prowess, since you have better uses for your standard actions than Intimidate checks. Furious Focus lets you ignore the Power Attack penalty once per round, which right now essentially means +2 attack, or +3 next level.

[grarrrg]

Do not. Use. An Archetype. Or a PrC either. The vanilla paladin is the best thing Pathfinder ever did. Then they turned around and made the paladin archetypes. Maybe that one leader type would be good in a party that makes lots of attack rolls, but it's not better than the regular. Then again, I haven't looked at any of the oaths.

I agree that most Paladin archetypes are poor.
Most Oaths are 'meh' (AND most trade away Divine Grace... useful if you want a low Cha Paladin I guess...)

The Holy Tactician (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/holy-tactician) ("leader type" would be very nice in a Melee-heavy party. You give up your Auras, Disease Immunity, and Divine Bond, but.....
It shares (reduced) Smite Evil bonuses with the party.
At 3rd level it can share Teamwork feats with the party with NO DURATION. (this alone almost invalidates Cavalier as a class)
At 8th level, the Paladin can spend a Move Action to let everyone else take a free 5-Foot-Step. No other limits on usage!



Abilities:

STR: 18
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 16



Take Lightning Reflexes and Improved Lightning Reflexes to make up for your poor reflex save, or dip two levels of rogue or monk.

2 birds. 1 stone.
Take a level of Oracle, Lore Mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/lore)
Pick up the Sidestep Secret revelation.
You now have Cha to AC and Ref Saves (instead of Dex).

[mikau013]

Furious Focus lets you ignore the Power Attack penalty once per round, which right now essentially means +2 attack, or +3 next level.

Only for your first attack though, which means it becomes worthless once you start picking up iteratives.

[Corlindale]

Surprisingly, Paladin archers can be very powerful too. It's much easier to get full attack (and add extra attacks on top of that) as an archer, and Paladin wants lots of attacks to take full advantage of smite evil. An archer build is a bit feat-starved, though, but it's one of the most powerful offensive options available to a Paladin.

For your spell selection, don't overlook the new Paladin spells in PF, there are some really great ones. At first level you get Hero's Defiance, an immediate action self-healing used when you are about to drop unconscious, very handy.

[mikau013]

I actually like the saddle surge spell from APG:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/saddle-surge

It is great for archers (especially if you can get a fast flying mount) since you don't get any penalties and can still full attack if your mount only makes a single move in a round.

Though technically by RAW you can also sit on another mount and let your paladin mount run circles, I'd doubt any DM would allow that.

[Firest Kathon]

My paladin makes quite frequent use of the spell Compel Hostility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/compel-hostility) from Ultimate Combat. As an immediate action, you can force an enemy to attach you instead of your ally.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Only for your first attack though, which means it becomes worthless once you start picking up iteratives.

Er, no? It's better than PAing with iteratives without Furious Focus, since AFAIK, you still get the damage bonus on your iteratives.

[mikau013]

What I meant was that on later levels your first attack is going to auto-hit anyway even with the PA penalty if PA is worth using. Since only your main attack gets the hit bonus and your iteratives will have the -5/-10/-15 + the PA penalty, so if they have a decent chance to hit then furious focus will be worthless for your main attack.

[Mystify]

What I meant was that on later levels your first attack is going to auto-hit anyway even with the PA penalty if PA is worth using. Since only your main attack gets the hit bonus and your iteratives will have the -5/-10/-15 + the PA penalty, so if they have a decent chance to hit then furious focus will be worthless for your main attack.
And if it did give you free power attack for everything and forever, it would be an amazingly overpowered feat. As it is, it is useful. Maybe not so much for the itereatives, but for all the times you don't get iteratives.

[mikau013]

So yeah low levels only like I said.

[Frosty]

And if it did give you free power attack for everything and forever, it would be an amazingly overpowered feat. As it is, it is useful. Maybe not so much for the itereatives, but for all the times you don't get iteratives.
Like how when you only make one attack when you try for a mounted spirited charge of DOOM, and you want to make sure you hit.

[ericgrau]

If you can get enough smites per day to use them have it active every round (oath of vengeance, extra lay on hands, high cha modifier), then try two weapon fighting. Two weapon fighting combines well with bonus damage such as smite to lay the smack down. Paladins have the added bonus of overcoming the attack roll penalty and more. Because smite is a constant number rather than die damage, it gets multiplied by crits. Try using two good crit weapons such as kukris and later consider improved critical and other crit feats.

There is the agile weapon property for dex to damage if you want to avoid MAD at high levels (at low levels with say dex 15 and str 12 it isn't worth it). Consider greyflame too if you can spare the lay on hands uses for even more damage. Spell storing is always nice, especially on TWFers. At very high levels get wounding. I wouldn't bother with burst weapons even if you go crit focused. Get boots of speed for yet another smite boosted attack.

[Ravens_cry]

You don't need to use 1 every round, they stay in effect until the target drops or you rest.
Having more is always good though.
As for getting on the crits, see if you can get a flanking buddy like a ninja or rogue with high crit range weapons like Kukri or Wakizashi to take a very beautiful feat, Butterfly Sting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical). A dex based rogue has little use for crits, but you do. This also works great for THW Paladins weilding scythes or tetsubo.

[ericgrau]

That's hard to pull off reliably so I'd wield twin light picks, or a heavy pick + light pick. That's just as good as kukris on average for critting (though it trades reliability for bigger booms) and you still get TWF perks. But when the butterfly sting does finally work and you smite it becomes ridiculous. Averages to 10 + 4 x (strength mod + paladin level) damage on just one of your many attacks. True it also works well on a power attacking scythe smite paladin. In general if you go THF I'd get a falchion or scythe (if butterfly sting is available) or similar crit weapon to exploit the high smite crit damage.