Limiting Spell Levels

[DoughGuy]

So everyone knows that the main problem with spell casters is the ridiculousness of their spells. It is eassy to break the game even at mid levels. However part of being a spell caster is commanding powerful mysterious forces. Limiting them too much would ruin what they are. So I was wondering what would be the effect of reducing the maximum available spell level by increasing the gap between when spell casters gain them. E.g -

Level - Highest Spell Level
1 - 1
2 - 1
3 - 1
4 - 2
5 - 2
6 - 2
7 - 3
8 - 3
9 - 3
10 - 4
11 - 4
12 - 4
13 - 5
14 - 5
15 - 5
16 - 6
17 - 6
18 - 6
19 - 7
20 - 7
(Spells per day increases would be more spread out so the spell caster gets the same number of spells they got across 2 levels previously in the 3 levels it takes now)


So what effect would this have on spell casters and the balance problems. The plus side of this is the fact that it delays the normally mid game game breakers and eliminates the high end game breakers. This makes it more realistic as the real power takes longer to come through. So playground what effect would this have? Would it do nothing? Not do enough? Work fairly well? And has the idead been suggested before and implemented? If so did it work?

[Flickerdart]

A 13th level Wizard handily trounces a 20th level fighter every time they meet on the field of battle despite not having 8th or 9th level spells. The real offenders - spells that win battles and give Wizards their notoriety - are useful at any level, not merely the one at which they are originally gotten. By delaying access to weaker spells, however, you are making them even more useless, and encouraging spellcasters to resort to the more powerful options simply because these are now the only spells worth a damn.

[kabreras]

Look fine but give your players something to chew at while whaiting for new spells levels cause 3 levels will look very long to them... (at low levels even more)

[grautry]

Well, it'd take away some of the most potent options in the casting arsenal - Gate, Shapechange, Time Stop etc.

However, if you think of casters as countries with 10 thousand nukes, casters limited to 7th level spells are still countries with 1k nukes. Sure, they're a magnitude less powerful, but they still have enough oomph to shatter the world.

Some other balance issues might arise. For example, if you limit yourself to 7th level spells, the Chameleon PrC stops being just 'Damn good' and becomes truly uber, since they have access to every arcane and divine spell of 6th level and lower. I'm certain that access to every single spell from any domain or exotic prestige class will more than make up for the lack of 7th level spells.

So, all in all, it's certainly a valid approach and not a bad idea, but it won't automatically solve every problem(and it's not devoid of problems of its own).

[DoughGuy]

Another idea I had, albeit a more arduous one, was to do a more thorough rework of the main offenders. Doing a multistep procedure like -
1. Ban the worst offenders e.g. gate, cerelity
2. Impose harsher restrictions on things like Planar binding/ally.
3. Rework some other spells e.g. Use Rich's polymorph rules.


A 13th level Wizard handily trounces a 20th level fighter every time they meet on the field of battle despite not having 8th or 9th level spells. The real offenders - spells that win battles and give Wizards their notoriety - are useful at any level, not merely the one at which they are originally gotten. By delaying access to weaker spells, however, you are making them even more useless, and encouraging spellcasters to resort to the more powerful options simply because these are now the only spells worth a damn.


The 13th level wizard beating the 20th level fighter at everything is still a problem. However now that problem only exists for 2 levels rather than 7. It reduces the amount of time that wizard are too powerful for not completely erasing it as that would, inmy opinion, take away too much from the wizard. i hope I addressed your point correctly there.

At your second point perhaps I should do a more uneven spread? The lower level spells only take 2 levels to gain, as per usual, but the higher level spells take 4 levels to get. That would allow spell casters to still be able at loewr levels but truly represent the struggle to earn greater power asa it takes longer.


Look fine but give your players something to chew at while whaiting for new spells levels cause 3 levels will look very long to them... (at low levels even more)

I would possibly add some more special featres to spell casters so they actually get something between the long waits. If I implemented the 2 char levels for lower spells and 4 char levels for higher spells (seen above) I would definetily need to give the casters something. If 3 levels is a long time to wait 4 is an eternity.


Well, it'd take away some of the most potent options in the casting arsenal - Gate, Shapechange, Time Stop etc.

However, if you think of casters as countries with 10 thousand nukes, casters limited to 7th level spells are still countries with 1k nukes. Sure, they're a magnitude less powerful, but they still have enough oomph to shatter the world.

Some other balance issues might arise. For example, if you limit yourself to 7th level spells, the Chameleon PrC stops being just 'Damn good' and becomes truly uber, since they have access to every arcane and divine spell of 6th level and lower. I'm certain that access to every single spell from any domain or exotic prestige class will more than make up for the lack of 7th level spells.

So, all in all, it's certainly a valid approach and not a bad idea, but it won't automatically solve every problem(and it's not devoid of problems of its own).

I do very much like your analogy and you are right. Obviously this would have wide reaching effects (such as what to do with monsters that get 8th and 9th level spells) and PrC requirements (such as being able to cast X level spells). There is also the question of half casters and PrCs like the ur priest that have accelerated casting. It would need a lot of work.

So obviously this change would have far reaching consequences that would need to be addressed. However I still want to examine the efffects of this system. How would implementing this system change the tiers? Would most tier 1 classes drop to tier 2? Would the current tier 1 still exist? Would tier 2-4 get stronger? Maybe increase in tier?

[Flickerdart]

The 13th level wizard beating the 20th level fighter at everything is still a problem. However now that problem only exists for 2 levels rather than 7. It reduces the amount of time that wizard are too powerful for not completely erasing it as that would, inmy opinion, take away too much from the wizard. i hope I addressed your point correctly there.
No, the problem still exists for 20 levels. My point was that high level spells are not the problem. Overpowered spells are the problem, and every level has its fair share of overpowered spells.

[FMArthur]

I'm actually adopting something pretty similar, but only to the T1-T2 casters and with the levels all bumped up by one (2nds at 3rd level, 7ths at 18th).

While it really doesn't fix the overall versatility gap - the tiers will hold true even with the change - the reduction in the power gap will make it more able to play much more nicely with T3s. They can still pretty much do anything, but the adjustment means they don't until a more reasonable level and are not be the absolute best at whatever they choose to do. I think you have the right idea in cutting down the rapid-accumulation of their power and not just smashing their options like some try to. The 'doing anything' bit is what makes them the best, but it's also why they are fun and why they get played, so nerfing from that angle is pretty much unmanageable if you still want to keep them in the game.

I'm just working on class features to sprinkle. One in particular to remember is keeping spell save DCs relevant so that you aren't nerfing one type of build more than others. On my chart, at 8th level and 14th level, their highest level spells are behind D&D's "1/2 HD" standard for scaling DCs by 1 and 2 points respectively, so I'm handing out +1 save DCs at both levels. I'm still thinking of other things to give out that are fun but don't make a mess.

[DoughGuy]

No, the problem still exists for 20 levels. My point was that high level spells are not the problem. Overpowered spells are the problem, and every level has its fair share of overpowered spells.

I see what your saying now. Obviously each level of spells requires a thorough examination that could rework some of the worst offenders. However that is a lot of work. Has anyone done that yet? However as I mentioned earlier having some extremely powerful spells is ok, I don't want to drastically reduce the power of spells just reduce the amount of time casters are way too powerful for. I would probably combine this with a few houserule bans on certain spells that are real problem makers. If you wouldnt mind compiling a list of what you think are the worst spells at each level that would be much appreciated.


I'm actually adopting something pretty similar, but only to the T1-T2 casters and with the levels all bumped up by one (2nds at 3rd level, 7ths at 18th).

While it really doesn't fix the overall versatility gap - the tiers will hold true even with the change - the reduction in the power gap will make it more able to play much more nicely with T3s. They can still pretty much do anything, but the adjustment means they don't until a more reasonable level and are not be the absolute best at whatever they choose to do. I think you have the right idea in cutting down the rapid-accumulation of their power and not just smashing their options like some try to. The 'doing anything' bit is what makes them the best, but it's also why they are fun and why they get played, so nerfing from that angle is pretty much unmanageable if you still want to keep them in the game.

I'm just working on class features to sprinkle. One in particular to remember is keeping spell save DCs relevant so that you aren't nerfing one type of build more than others. On my chart, at 8th level and 14th level, their highest level spells are behind D&D's "1/2 HD" standard for scaling DCs by 1 and 2 points respectively, so I'm handing out +1 save DCs at both levels. I'm still thinking of other things to give out that are fun but don't make a mess.

The increase to DCs is a good idea. I would suggest bonus metamagic feats but reducing the spell levels available simply makes the feats more expensive and the players should be choosing whether they want the added cost or not themselves. A boost to the primary casting stat at higher levels would also be an idea (say +2 at 12th, +4 at 17th). Other than that theres little I can thiink of.

[Feralventas]

Slowing down progression to 7th at 20 is a decent step, but you're going to want to take a look at the spell list that's still available and decide what to do about that. Grease is a prime example, but can be mitigated by enemies with a decent dex and 5 ranks in Balance.

Alternatively, I'd suggest starting the progression at 0th level spells, not allowing 1st until you have 2nd listed, so on and so forth.

[DoughGuy]

Slowing down progression to 7th at 20 is a decent step, but you're going to want to take a look at the spell list that's still available and decide what to do about that. Grease is a prime example, but can be mitigated by enemies with a decent dex and 5 ranks in Balance.

Alternatively, I'd suggest starting the progression at 0th level spells, not allowing 1st until you have 2nd listed, so on and so forth.

I'm hesitant to further weaken casters at the early levels. They already have a lot against them and I think taking away first levels spells would make them virtually useless.

The available spell list obviously needs some cuts and alterations but for now Im happy to simply cut 8th and 9th level spells. I will probably in the future do a detailed spell list work through, maybe get some others to help me on that.

[Feralventas]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/enchantment

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/evocation

If you give them these, they'll have class and specialization based abilities that scale with their level, but do so meekly. In the mean time, by the time these abilities are a last-draw option instead of a first-response, they'll have the spells and power to do so on their own, and their Caster Level still stacks normally, so getting Magic Missile at 4th level means they're going from 1d6+2 damage to an automatic 3d4+3. 2nd level spells at Wizard 6th means that Lesser Orb of Electricity deals 3d8 easily. They can also add meta-magic, or feat-based SLA's to augment their abilities. Yes, the spell-casters will be slower to get to their blasting stuff, but making them weak at the start makes it worth while to get to those late-game spells, and their lower level spells will still be potent.

Let's not forget that cantrips can still be plenty potent in their own right. Mage Hand can take away someone's weapon before they can use it. Light or Dancing Lights can illuminate a dark cave where otherwise you'd need people holding torches or fighting blind. Disrupt Undead has no save and guarantees damage. Cure Minor wounds is a be-all-end-all stabilization method if you need it. A single dip in Wizard for Ray of Frost lets the Rogue sneak attack with Energy damage instead of mundane weapons; this gets by DR of most sorts.

'Casters are plenty powerful without needing Meteor Storm or Polar Ray.

[ORione]

This will make bards comparitively more powerful, unless you slow down their casting, too. They have more skills and a better BAB than other arcane spellcasters, as well as the ability to wear light armor. They'd only have one fewer spell levels than other casters. Not a huge deal, but something you might want to think about.

[DoughGuy]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/enchantment

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/evocation

If you give them these, they'll have class and specialization based abilities that scale with their level, but do so meekly. In the mean time, by the time these abilities are a last-draw option instead of a first-response, they'll have the spells and power to do so on their own, and their Caster Level still stacks normally, so getting Magic Missile at 4th level means they're going from 1d6+2 damage to an automatic 3d4+3. 2nd level spells at Wizard 6th means that Lesser Orb of Electricity deals 3d8 easily. They can also add meta-magic, or feat-based SLA's to augment their abilities. Yes, the spell-casters will be slower to get to their blasting stuff, but making them weak at the start makes it worth while to get to those late-game spells, and their lower level spells will still be potent.

Let's not forget that cantrips can still be plenty potent in their own right. Mage Hand can take away someone's weapon before they can use it. Light or Dancing Lights can illuminate a dark cave where otherwise you'd need people holding torches or fighting blind. Disrupt Undead has no save and guarantees damage. Cure Minor wounds is a be-all-end-all stabilization method if you need it. A single dip in Wizard for Ray of Frost lets the Rogue sneak attack with Energy damage instead of mundane weapons; this gets by DR of most sorts.

'Casters are plenty powerful without needing Meteor Storm or Polar Ray.

I'll take a look and see if I like it. Thanks for the links.

Edit: Ok so I looked at the links And I do like the idea of giving casters a few SLAs while they're waiting for spells.


This will make bards comparitively more powerful, unless you slow down their casting, too. They have more skills and a better BAB than other arcane spellcasters, as well as the ability to wear light armor. They'd only have one fewer spell levels than other casters. Not a huge deal, but something you might want to think about.

The idea is to do this to all full casters and possibly reduce the power of some half-casters in order to balance it out.

[FMArthur]

You don't need to do anything but give them enough spell slots to be casting all day. Obviously you'd never be using the bard's chart for your wizard rewrite, not as-is with the same numbers, because they don't have enough to be a primary spellcaster.

Wizards have a massive range of options in their spells that bards simply do not have access to. The generalist problem-solver spellcaster (I'm not talking about Generalist wizards; the term still describes specialist wizards) has tremendous power in its variety and selection that a bard cannot compete with. Bringing wizard down to Tier 3 (which this doesn't really do) wouldn't suddenly make changes to how powerful the bard is.