Conan - revisited

[Gwendol]

So, instead of cluttering an otherwise interesting discussion about alignment and class requisites, I'm starting a new thread concerned with a side discussion; which to the best of my knowledge is about the origins of the barbarian class.
I argue that Conan the Barbarian is the chief inspiration to the class, together with Fafhrd, and viking berserkers.
Others claim that Conan is better described as a fighter, or fighter/rogue.

I only refer to Conan as written in Robert E. Howards stories; not the movies, and not any other stories/comics published.

Here is a passage showing Conan fighting while raging (taken from "Queen of the Black Coast"):

The fight on the Argus was short and bloody. The stocky sailors, no match for the tall barbarians, were cut down to a man. Elsewhere the battle had taken a peculiar turn. Conan, on the high-pitched poop, was on a level with the pirate's deck. As the steel prow slashed into the Argus, he braced himself and kept his feet under the shock, casting away his bow. A tall corsair, bounding over the rail, was met in midair by the Cimmerian's great sword, which sheared him cleanly through the torso, so that his body fell one way and his legs another. Then, with a burst of fury that left a heap of mangled corpses along the gunwales, Conan was over the rail and on the deck of the Tigress.

In an instant he was the center of a hurricane of stabbing spears and lashing clubs. But he moved in a blinding blur of steel. Spears bent on his armor or swished empty air, and his sword sang its death-song. The fighting-madness of his race was upon him, and with a red mist of unreasoning fury wavering before his blazing eyes, he cleft skulls, smashed breasts, severed limbs, ripped out entrails, and littered the deck like a shambles with a ghastly harvest of brains and blood.


Fighting-madness of his race is the passage of interest here, clearly showing that this is a "rage-effect", and common to his race (the Cimmerians). It is further characterized in a passage below from the end of the same story:

Twenty: then the spears of the pirates had taken toll of the pack, after all. Even as he thought this, Conan drew nock to ear, and at the twang of the string a flame-eyed shadow bounded high and fell writhing. The rest did not falter; on they came, and like a rain of death among them fell the arrows of the Cimmerian, driven with all the force and accuracy of steely thews backed by a hate hot as the slag-heaps of hell.

In his berserk fury he did not miss; the air was filled with feathered destruction. The havoc wrought among the onrushing pack was breathtaking. Less than half of them reached the foot of the pyramid. Others dropped upon the broad steps. Glaring down into the blazing eyes, Conan knew these creatures were not beasts; it was not merely in their unnatural size that he sensed a blasphemous difference. They exuded an aura tangible as the black mist rising from a corpse-littered swamp. By what godless alchemy these beings had been brought into existence, he could not guess; but he knew he faced diabolism blacker than the Well of Skelos.

Here we see it is indeed characterized as berserk fury. Needless to say, this is the case in practically every story written (Conan raging, that is), and he describes himself as a "barbarian" quite often as well.

Now, let's look at the 3.5 Barbarian:

Skills: The barbarian’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Abilities: Rage (and improvements thereof), Uncanny dodge, Trapsense, Fast movement, Damage reduction, Indomitable will.

I'd say you can make a decent Conan clone by going straight Barbarian, Lion spirit totem, leap attacking, greater cleaving, and all.

Now, Conan gets to hack his way through a long string of adventures, and pick up experiences along the way: thief, pirate, soldier, kozak (horse nomad), king, to name a few. It is not unreasonable to assume a multi-classed build including levels of rogue and dread pirate or scarlet corsair, for example. But to say you can make a good Conan without levels of barbarian I can never agree to, nor that he only has a level or two of barbarian under his belt. I conclude he's mostly a Barbarian, with dips in rogue and other classes.

[Mystify]

I'm not extremely familiar with Conan myself, but the text you quoted seems like a prefect description of a rage and damage reduction.

[Helldog]

Others claim that Conan is better described as a fighter, or fighter/rogue.
Who claims that? I'm pretty sure it's not me.

[Seharvepernfan]

I think that Conan, as well as Turok, Batman, James Bond, and other popular action heroes, are gestalt (and have very high stats).

Conan to me seems something like: Warblade X/Rogue X//Barbarian X
Possibly factotum instead of rogue. He's probably an E6 character as well.

[sonofzeal]

I'll agree that's a much better depiction. Again, I'm more familiar with the other Robert.

A few quibbles though.

- In the first one, he's surviving because he's got good armor ("pears bent on his armor") and high dexterity ("or swished empty air") - basically, because his AC was high. But doesn't Barbarian Rage lower your AC? I know of at least two variants that raise it, but if we're talking Core Barbarian, then it doesn't actually replicate this well. Really, for all the talk about fury and rage, all he's doing is fighting well and not getting hit. Fluff-wise it sounds like a Barbarian Rage, but mechanics-wise there's nothing to actually suggest that's what's going on.

- The second one makes this clearer. He's channeling whatever it is he's doing, into being pro with a bow. But Rage doesn't provide any bonus in this situation! If he was using a throwing weapon he'd at least be adding the bonus strength on to damage, but a bow doesn't let you do that (at least, not the sort of bow Conan would likely have available to him).

So while the description is of Rage, if we're talking Core 3.5e D&D then Barbarian Rage doesn't actually reflect it particularly well. Any build that can use longbows and greatswords effectively could fit the mechanics of what he's doing just as well, including NPC Warrior.

Finally, in the works of the other Robert, Conan is regularly seducing information out of women, and seems to commit a major act of burglery almost once per book. You're the expert on Robert E. Howard, so I'll have to rely on you to tells us if his Conan acts the same way. How often is he sneaking around, avoiding detection? How often is he doing things best represented by Gather Information, or Diplomacy, or Sense Motive?

I've never denied that Barbarian and even Rage couldn't be part of representing him in D&D. I'm just saying it isn't by any means the whole story.

Or, let's put some numbers to this. I claim that, in a 10th level build, Conan would be better represented as Barbarian2/Rogue4/Fighter4 than by straight Barbarian10. Am I wrong?

[Mystify]

Or, let's put some numbers to this. I claim that, in a 10th level build, Conan would be better represented as Barbarian2/Rogue4/Fighter4 than by straight Barbarian10. Am I wrong?
You may be right, but mainly because barbarian scales really poorly after 2 levels.

[The Gilded Duke]

From what I remember here are the features he has shown:

Climb Skill - Tower of the Elephant
Linguistics - He knows Pict and pretty much every other language he encounters.
Heavy Armor Proficiency - Queen of the Black Coast
Wild Empathy - Beyond the Black River
Maybe Improved Uncanny Dodge - Phoenix on the Sword
Maybe Improved Grapple - Tower of the Elephant, and the time he eats a crow while crucified.

Also he has a sword that counts as good for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction - Phoenix on the Sword

[sonofzeal]

You may be right, but mainly because barbarian scales really poorly after 2 levels.
Even ignoring that, the variety of skills he shows simply aren't feasible for a Barbarian. Again I'm going from the other Robert, but he was quite good at Hide, Move Silently, Gather Information, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Balance. A Rogue can do all that, but a Barbarian can't. A Rogue with enough Fighter levels can do just about everything Conan has been shown doing in combat, too.

Remember, a Fighter can fly into an animalistic fury as well, he just isn't gaining any bonuses from it besides what he has the rest of the time. I haven't seen Conan do anything a Ftr/Rog couldn't do, but I've seen him do plenty of things a Brb couldn't.

[Gwendol]

...ignoring his uncanny dodge, and the fact that I provided evidence of heightened martial prowess while raging. One example is that Conan is always the strongest, even in those contests where his opponent is described as being of at least equal size and strength. In those instances it is his rage that sets them apart and is the reason for his triumph.

+1 to the list of the Gilded Duke though, and adding to the evidence of Imp grappling I'd like to refer to the killing of the were-hyenas on the pyramid (quoted above) when Conan grabs them by the throat and deals lethal damage.

I would also add DR to that list since it is mentioned in several places that he takes hits normally lethal. There are several instances of Conan being able to withstand damage and pain better when raging, though it isn't explicitly stated that way (IIRC). In other words it is unclear whether to classify it as DR or increased CON when raging, or both.

Conan the diplomat doesn't sound very canon. Here's an example of diplomacy the way of the barbarian though (from Queen of the Black Coast):


I was haled into court, and a judge asked me where the lad had gone. I replied that since he was a friend of mine, I could not betray him. Then the court waxed wrath, and the judge talked a great deal about my duty to the state, and society, and other things I did not understand, and bade me tell where my friend had flown. By this time I was becoming wrathful myself, for I had explained my position.

"But I choked my ire and held my peace, and the judge squalled that I had shown contempt for the court, and that I should be hurled into a dungeon to rot until I betrayed my friend. So then, seeing they were all mad, I drew my sword and cleft the judge's skull; then I cut my way out of the court, and seeing the high constable's stallion tied near by, I rode for the wharfs, where I thought to find a ship bound for foreign parts."

[sonofzeal]

...ignoring his uncanny dodge,
It was an odd mistake the first time, but do I actually have to link you? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#uncannyDodge)


and the fact that I provided evidence of heightened martial prowess while raging. One example is that Conan is always the strongest, even in those contests where his opponent is described as being of at least equal size and strength. In those instances it is his rage that sets them apart and is the reason for his triumph.
Er, bit of a contradiction there. If they're of equal strength, they're of equal strength. Conan merely is always the strongest, even if the difference is tiny and it seems to be going poorly for him at first.

Also, I'm not sure you can claim "heightened martial prowess" unless he's performing feats he was incapable of before, which I don't see implied by either text.


+1 to the list of the Gilded Duke though, and adding to the evidence of Imp grappling I'd like to refer to the killing of the were-hyenas on the pyramid (quoted above) when Conan grabs them by the throat and deals lethal damage.

I would also add DR to that list since it is mentioned in several places that he takes hits normally lethal. There are several instances of Conan being able to withstand damage and pain better when raging, though it isn't explicitly stated that way (IIRC). In other words it is unclear whether to classify it as DR or increased CON when raging, or both.
...or simply more hp than the average person. A high-level character can take some pretty massive hits and keep on trucking, regardless of class. Most people would be pretty much dead if someone hacked at them with a greatsword for a full minute, but ten rounds of 2d6 damage won't kill a tough lvl 10.


Conan the diplomat doesn't sound very canon. Here's an example of diplomacy the way of the barbarian though (from Queen of the Black Coast):
Not a "diplomat"... but I think he's been shown to have a way with people. He tends to gain allies quickly, become trusted by powerful people, and generally have social influence more than sheer strength of arms would imply. Conan's particular method is fairly straightspoken and direct, but he does it effectively. When he talks, people tend to listen. And the skill for that in D&D is Diplomacy.

[Gwendol]

Only that the barbarian gets the ability sooner, and it is described as being wild and untamed in nature, rather than the skilled reflexes of a trained rogue.

A reason for Conan being the stronger is that being a cimmerian he gains greater strength through raging.

HP and levels aren't well represented in novels written some 40 years before the birth of D&D, so that argument is kind of pointless. In his rage Conan shrugs off wounds, and in norse folklore the berserkers were also known to disregard pain and keep fighting after serious wounds. Part of the whole berserker thingy I'd say.

That which you describe can also be accomplished by a high CHA.

I don't think you'll have much Conan left if you take away the Barbarian, and I maintain that the class is to an extent based on this character, or at least the Cimmerian part of him.

[sonofzeal]

Only that the barbarian gets the ability sooner, and it is described as being wild and untamed in nature, rather than the skilled reflexes of a trained rogue.

A reason for Conan being the stronger is that being a cimmerian he gains greater strength through raging.

HP and levels aren't well represented in novels written some 40 years before the birth of D&D, so that argument is kind of pointless. In his rage Conan shrugs off wounds, and in norse folklore the berserkers were also known to disregard pain and keep fighting after serious wounds. Part of the whole berserker thingy I'd say.

That which you describe can also be accomplished by a high CHA.

I don't think you'll have much Conan left if you take away the Barbarian, and I maintain that the class is to an extent based on this character, or at least the Cimmerian part of him.
Conan without Barbarian levels is an exceptionally strong man, exceptionally skilled with the sword, from a savage land, with a wide variety of talents mostly related to athleticism. Which... y'know, is pretty close to who he is in the books by any standard.

As for the class being modeled after him, I'd have to admit Conan has been instrumental in shaping the entire idea of what "barbarian" means. But the original comment that sparked the debate was another poster claiming that the inspiration behind the Barbarian class was less Conan as portrayed in the books, and more the Arnold movie that bears his name. The timing's certainly right - Arnold's Conan movie came out 1982 and was a fairly big deal among the sorts of people who'd play and design D&D. My timing's not certain on when the first Barbarians were added, but given that they were "Fighter kits" rather than separate classes, I'm guessing the late 80's, well in the wake of Arnold.

I think that other poster had a serious case - the Conan of literature was more well-rounded, but the Conan of the movies lines up with the class pretty darn well.

[Seharvepernfan]

There shouldn't be any doubt that Conan is a barbarian, it's just that he's not just a barbarian. He's clearly got some skillmonkey in him as well. However, I don't think any other person he meets is a better warrior than him, which is one of the reasons I suggested him being gestalt.

I've only read a few of the books, but I've read several of the newer graphic novels of him, and he's clearly barbarian. He's the strongest man in every story, and is often stronger than many strong beasts/monsters - to me this is partly because of rage. He's extremely tough, both in the HP sense and fortitude sense. He's often almost naked and avoiding or ignoring damage - DR? He's often snuck up on or surrounded, yet manages to dodge attacks - clearly uncanny dodge, as early as 14 years old (not at higher levels). He's always described as being an excellent climber, I think ape totem barbarian would fit that, or it could just be a higher movement speed, though I don't think he's ever described as being a particularly fast runner.

Anywho, I think it's highly likely that the barbarian class is heavily influenced by Conan, the jaguar totem (regular) in particular.

[Gwendol]

Conan without Barbarian levels is an exceptionally strong man, exceptionally skilled with the sword, from a savage land, with a wide variety of talents mostly related to athleticism. Which... y'know, is pretty close to who he is in the books by any standard.

As for the class being modeled after him, I'd have to admit Conan has been instrumental in shaping the entire idea of what "barbarian" means. But the original comment that sparked the debate was another poster claiming that the inspiration behind the Barbarian class was less Conan as portrayed in the books, and more the Arnold movie that bears his name. The timing's certainly right - Arnold's Conan movie came out 1982 and was a fairly big deal among the sorts of people who'd play and design D&D. My timing's not certain on when the first Barbarians were added, but given that they were "Fighter kits" rather than separate classes, I'm guessing the late 80's, well in the wake of Arnold.

I think that other poster had a serious case - the Conan of literature was more well-rounded, but the Conan of the movies lines up with the class pretty darn well.

Not true: there were weeks between the opening of the movie and the unveiling of the Barbarian fighter kit. Too little time for the kit to be based on the movie interpretation of the character.

The problem with the un-barbarian Conan that is that his rage is such a prominent part of his character; and it's even characterized as berserker rage (with all the historical meaning of such a characterization).

+1 to being Gestalt.

[The Gilded Duke]

I think certain qualities probably come from race, or perhaps bloodline levels if you want to get into that whole mess.

The Climbing bit was a Cimmerian trait it's been too long since I've read the stories to suggest anything else.

[Ossian]

But one cannot miss all the references to his brutal strength, endless stamina, vitality, endurance, ferocity as coming from the world of the wilderness. Recurring is the juxtaposition between "highly trained and skilled but civilized man" and the "feral power" that his cimmerian upbringing bestowed on him. Howard has him meet a fair fight once in a while, skilled duellists, canny fighters, powerful soldiers, yet eventually they all have to yield to his barbaric force. He also has the danger sense of a wolf, the ability to anticipate threats, to dodge at the last second the falling boulder, to smell the fear and bloodlust of an approaching enemy, the fine sense of touch to detect a trace of heat on a door knob recently used by a human hand. All traits that seem to indicate a high level of Barbarian.

Yet if we are talking about statting, I think that Conan "starts" as a Barbarian (battle of Venarium) with insanely high stats, and picks up a wide skills set along the way.

He is sneaky and stealthy and diplomatic and a smooth talker if he wants, speaks many languages, and when he strikes first (which he usually does!) he does it so quickly and brutally that lesser opponents are easily insta-killed (sneak attack full-attack, with great cleave in between, to flat footed opponents). That does seem to indicate a few levels in Rogue. Maybe 2 or 3 (loss of 1 BAB, a few HP, but also super high Refl saves).

He is also a charismatic leader of fighting bands (be them pirates, kozaks, freemen etc...) who easily dons heavy armour (although he prefers lighter ones, when he is made general and leaves the capital city of I don t remember which story (A Witch will be born?) he looks more royal than a good many soldiers of renown). Has the battle-clarity to improvise effective strategies and knows the politics of war. He is also a competent archer, and a proficient rider (and can fire arrows while mounted). Fighters too (I assume) start seeing red when the swords are swinging. I can't imagine a fight between 2 soldiers of Aquilonia being a pretty thing, for sure. That indicates levels in fighter, which are sort of feats heavy.

I would thus go for a progression (non E6) that goes like:

Barbarian 2
Rogue 3
Barbarian 4
Fighter 4
Barbarian 11 (must have greater rage and DR 2 to ignore "minor" things like anything but a super well delivered punch, or a grazing knife slash)

Ending as King of Aquilonia as Barbarian 11 / Rogue 3 / Fighter 4
A level 18 character, with lots of feats, lots of HPs etc..

Starting with:
STR 18 (if ANYONE must have it) +2 at levels 4 and 8 = 20
CON 17 (just not to overkill)
DEX 18 (see STR) +2 at levels 12 and 16 = 20

INT 11 (not stupid, but also not learned)
WIS 15 (keen instinct)
CHA 16 (has a way with people)

By the time he sits on the Eagle Throne he's middle aged, so still olympic physical stats, and pretty good WIS and CHA
:smallbiggrin:


O.

[Gwendol]

Good level progression I'd say. That's a good King Conan as any other; outside of Gestalt.

[gkathellar]

That's a pretty good approach using the core classes, Ossian.

Alternatively, couldn't sum up his mix of sheer, brutal cunning and battle fury with an initiator? A single-classed warblade gets everything people expect from Conan: inhuman toughness (d12 HD + IHS), a keen mind (Intelligence riders and Diamond Mind), skill as a speaker and leader (Diplomacy + White Raven), and a furious approach to combat (Tiger Claw) predicated on lightning-quick instincts (Uncanny Dodge) and perfectly honed technique (Iron Heart). Even his preternatural senses can be covered by several stances.

[Ossian]

That's a pretty good approach using the core classes, Ossian.

Alternatively, couldn't sum up his mix of sheer, brutal cunning and battle fury with an initiator? A single-classed warblade gets everything people expect from Conan: inhuman toughness (d12 HD + IHS), a keen mind (Intelligence riders and Diamond Mind), skill as a speaker and leader (Diplomacy + White Raven), and a furious approach to combat (Tiger Claw) predicated on lightning-quick instincts (Uncanny Dodge) and perfectly honed technique (Iron Heart). Even his preternatural senses can be covered by several stances.

Agreed! Warblade is pretty much the only single-class I can think of, for those out of the ordinary fighters. Conan, Kull, even Gatsu with some rule tweaking/flexibility.

Going core only, Barbarian would have to go whirling frenzy (the steel blur) and I d even opt for Boar over Lion. He can do damage in a charge with "shock trooper" and other feats. The Boar's Diehard feat while raging, extended rage and increased DR (DR 3 at level 11) seem to fit well.

[Mystify]

I really don't see the argument that "he doesn't have any barbarian levels because his rage doesn't have to be a real rage" making much sense. You point out all these skills he has that are rogue-like, but if he was a rogue/fighter he would have even fewer skills available than a rogue/barbarian. going barbarian over fighter also grants more hp. You are arguing for rogue, but how often does he demonstrate sneak attack? If you can argue rogue without sneak attack, how can you throw away barbarian when there are clear instances of him raging?

[Greenish]

I argue that Conan the Barbarian is the chief inspiration to the class, together with Fafhrd, and viking berserkers.
Others claim that Conan is better described as a fighter, or fighter/rogue.Those arguments aren't mutually contradictory. :smallamused:

[Edit]:
Going core only, Barbarian would have to go whirling frenzy (the steel blur) and I d even opt for Boar over Lion. He can do damage in a charge with "shock trooper" and other feats. The Boar's Diehard feat while raging, extended rage and increased DR (DR 3 at level 11) seem to fit well.How is that "Core only"? :smalltongue:

[Metahuman1]

Personally, I could see Conan being a Gestalt or Multiclass Warblade and Factotum, and having a dip into Barbarian of probably at most 4 levels if he took the extra rage feat.

[Gwendol]

Those arguments aren't mutually contradictory. :smallamused:

Quotes taken out of context aren't always that. Is there something relating to the topic you want to add, or are you keeping to semantics?

[Gwendol]

Personally, I could see Conan being a Gestalt or Multiclass Warblade and Factotum, and having a dip into Barbarian of probably at most 4 levels if he took the extra rage feat.

Based on what? I have great difficulty in understanding why he needs levels of factotum.

[Helldog]

Based on what? I have great difficulty in understanding why he needs levels of factotum.
Because he's supposed to be a smart fighter and Warblade//Factotum use Int for their features and Factotum takes care of the skillmonkeyness.

[Metahuman1]

Because he's supposed to be a smart fighter and Warblade//Factotum use Int for their features and Factotum takes care of the skillmonkeyness.

Beat me too it. But yeah, it explains all of that nicely. 4 Lvl's of Barbarian explains the rage boosts and helps with the mobility (Pounce.), and Warblade by itself takes care of all the rest of the solid warrior ness and insane Badassdome. Iron Heart Surge anyone?

[Greenish]

Quotes taken out of context aren't always that. Is there something relating to the topic you want to add, or are you keeping to semantics?Is the topic whether 3.5's barbarian class is (partially) based on Conan the barbarian, or whether 3.5's (straight) barbarian class is the best way to represent Conan in the system?

You make a decent argument for the former, while most replies are against the latter.

Dismiss it as semantics if you want, but the fact is people here aren't even arguing about the same thing. :smallcool:

[missmvicious]

Snip

Wow... sonofzeal. How do you do that? Even without knowing the source material, you tend to have an uncanny grasp of the concept of Conan.

My husband is obsessed with Conan, and has imposed upon me Robert E. Howard's collected works by reading them to me last year, and I have to say, I'd trust you're build over anyone else's here so far.

But you could place an argument that he's a Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue/Monk/Ranger/Druid Avenger/Paladin of Freedom (at the end of his career) as well. In fact, as long as you homebrew out the casting... any martial class will do. Robert E. Howard wanted to create a character that was better than everyone: an unbeatable force of wild justice. If I remember correctly, Conan actually fights Set himself once (with a Paladin-like blessing from Crom and wins.

Conan only sucks at two things: keeping his girlfriends alive, and using magic. Actually, it became rather predictable that he's what would have happened if James Kirk and James Bond had a baby and let it be raised by wolves: a proud, but stealthy, acrobatic warrior who has wild sex with the redshirts. *eyeroll* At least he avenges their deaths...

I think I remember in the last book, he's like 90 or something and has abandoned his family and kingdom to go on one last adventure to a weird foreign land. He meets a prostitute who takes one look at his old wrinkled frame and decides she must have him. They do their thing... and the prostitute actually pouts when he gets up to leave because she's never had it so good and therefore wishes he never had to leave.

...

*blink, blink*

Let me just say... I think Robert E. Howard may have been a Mary Sue. Still, the books were fun to read even though they were a little too predictable, self-indulgent, and borderline pornographic.

[gkathellar]

Because he's supposed to be a smart fighter and Warblade//Factotum use Int for their features and Factotum takes care of the skillmonkeyness.

Factotum is really off-target. SLAs? Healing? Turn undead? None of these fit. He's not a "brilliant warrior" type so much as a brutally skilled fighting master with a certain base cunning, charisma and a knack for strategy.

If he absolutely must be gestalt, Warblade//Rogue is more appropriate, but Warblade covers just about everything Conan is known for.

[Gwendol]

Is the topic whether 3.5's barbarian class is (partially) based on Conan the barbarian, or whether 3.5's (straight) barbarian class is the best way to represent Conan in the system?

You make a decent argument for the former, while most replies are against the latter.

Dismiss it as semantics if you want, but the fact is people here aren't even arguing about the same thing. :smallcool:

The former it is, but I find it somewhat odd that so many want to minimize his levels of Barb, while that is what truly sets him apart (and his superhuman ability scores).

[Metahuman1]

Wow... sonofzeal. How do you do that? Even without knowing the source material, you tend to have an uncanny grasp of the concept of Conan.

My husband is obsessed with Conan, and has imposed upon me Robert E. Howard's collected works by reading them to me last year, and I have to say, I'd trust you're build over anyone else's here so far.

But you could place an argument that he's a Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue/Monk/Ranger/Druid Avenger/Paladin of Freedom (at the end of his career) as well. In fact, as long as you homebrew out the casting... any martial class will do. Robert E. Howard wanted to create a character that was better than everyone: an unbeatable force of wild justice. If I remember correctly, Conan actually fights Set himself once (with a Paladin-like blessing from Crom and wins.

Conan only sucks at two things: keeping his girlfriends alive, and using magic. Actually, it became rather predictable that he's what would have happened if James Kirk and James Bond had a baby and let it be raised by wolves: a proud, but stealthy, acrobatic warrior who has wild sex with the redshirts. *eyeroll* At least he avenges their deaths...

I think I remember in the last book, he's like 90 or something and has abandoned his family and kingdom to go on one last adventure to a weird foreign land. He meets a prostitute who takes one look at his old wrinkled frame and decides she must have him. They do their thing... and the prostitute actually pouts when he gets up to leave because she's never had it so good and therefore wishes he never had to leave.

...

*blink, blink*

Let me just say... I think Robert E. Howard may have been a Mary Sue. Still, the books were fun to read even though they were a little too predictable, self-indulgent, and borderline pornographic.

Keep in mind, Howard was suffering form Mental Illness for most of his life.

I seem to remember it was Schizophrenia or something like that, but I might be mis-remembering it.

[Lapak]

...ignoring his uncanny dodge, and the fact that I provided evidence of heightened martial prowess while raging. One example is that Conan is always the strongest, even in those contests where his opponent is described as being of at least equal size and strength. In those instances it is his rage that sets them apart and is the reason for his triumph.Just a minor quibble: this is not true. I can think of two Howard stories just off the top of my head where Conan was flat-out weaker than his opponent; one was an ape-creature or Neanderthal-ish beast of some kind (Rogues in the House) and the other was some kind of living-statue thing on an island (can't remember the name of the story at the moment.) Rage or no rage, he's definitely described as being overpowered more than once.

[Starbuck_II]

Conan only sucks at two things: keeping his girlfriends alive, and using magic. Actually, it became rather predictable that he's what would have happened if James Kirk and James Bond had a baby and let it be raised by wolves: a proud, but stealthy, acrobatic warrior who has wild sex with the redshirts. *eyeroll* At least he avenges their deaths...


Actually, he uses magic too. It was in the cartoon show Conan the Barbarian. The Druid dude teaches him magic to charm/calm animals. And he successfully uses it and learns his animal spirit is a Lion.
Her fights against Set and his serpent men lead by Wrath-a-mon.
Had a talking baby pheonix friend was an awesome show.

[Greenish]

The former it is, but I find it somewhat odd that so many want to minimize his levels of Barb, while that is what truly sets him apart (and his superhuman ability scores).Well, barbarian's signature ability, Rage, tends to scale rather poorly with levels. One-level dip and Extra Rage gets you the same raging as ten levels of barbarian.

Also, the skill system in 3.5 isn't really designed for characters that are great in so many different things, and barbarian's chassis in this regard is in the lower end of the scale.

And finally there's whether rage (or even whirling frenzy) is a good representation of Conan's inner fire, which seems to be more of a constant thing rather than activated short-duration buff.


[Edit]: Also, the proof that D&D's barbarian wasn't inspired by the movies is that none of the packages/classes have Camel Knocking-out Punch as a class ability. :smallcool:

[Gwendol]

I'm sorry Lapak, I wasn't expressing myself clearly: I meant vs human opponents. Thaka (?) is somekind of ape-man (Taer-like perhaps) and the other example is a construct of sorts.

Greenish, his rages are not constant, and are described in terms of berserker rage, fighting rage, etc. I appreciate the thoughts going into optimizing Conan; but as you say the system is ill-suited to adequately describe litterary figures.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's a question: Can you model some of Conan's more exotic foes successfully in 3.5e, without resorting to complete 100% homebrewing of everything to do with his foes?

Take the Acheron wizard Xaltotun, villain of Hour of the Dragon.

How would you model Xaltotun, then? AND have him plausibly act and interact with Conan the way the Hour of the Dragon shows?

[Gwendol]

That's very hard to do since magic isn't described as working even remotely in a way described by D&D. I mean, Thoth, the stygian villain in "The Phoenix on the Sword" seems to have a ring granting him "Planar Ally" (he summons a demonic baboon, or something), and in Red Nails there is a wand making an appearance at the end. Perhaps they're more akin to Warlocks?

[Ossian]

D&D magic users are light years away from Conan. There are a few low level sorcerers, that perhaps have touch spells and a few illusions. Enough to be scary (as the source of such power is often unspeakably ancient and evil) but also weak enough that, if Conan gets within melee range, they are toast.

Other magic users are more like high level fighters with UMD and some crazy stuff (wands, rings etc...) that gives them a massive edge in combat

Others yet are more priest like in nature, worshippers of Dark Gods and basically powerful just on the account of them being able to read old stygian or some scary language like that.

It seems like most of the really powerful ones are scary scary scary because of some ancient pact with the evil powers. Xalthotun, for example, is a resurrected mummy with a perfectly normal (even handsome) appearance of a once all powerful sorcerer, but you don`t see him doing anything more than what a level 4 or 5 Sorcerer would do on a good day.

In general, they use magic sparsely, rely on scheming and on using minions, and either use many low level spells (say 1 to 3, curses, illusions, scrying, de-buffs, low energy elements etc...) or just plan frikking level 11 miracles that shatter continents.

Conan, justly, fears them. Like everyone in their right mind. Unlike "everyone", Conan can prescribe high-iron diets to Sorcerer when climax is nigh.

While his barbaric and primordial nature makes him superstitious (and somehow even vulnerable) to spells (especially with Will save to negate) it also grants him the epic vitality of the hero, so as to shrug off some of the worse de-buffs or to go home with his hide (and that of the sorcerer, neatly folded in A4 format) despite their adverse effects.

I think that for that, the barbarian class does give him justice. As for his being generally awesome, there is a good reason why E6 works that well, because in low magic, tough combat scenarios like Conan's, a normal lvl 20 character is just too powerful. You are a frikkin god of war.

Conan, outside the E6 and anywhere above level 10 (pretty much in any combination of classes) is as faithful as it gets, to the books. Pitch a high stats high level Barbarian / Fighter / Rogue against no matter how many buccaneers, kazaks, turanians, zuagiris and what have you, and you still get the same result. A pile of buccaneers, kazaks, turanians, zuagiris corpses, pretty horribly mangled, and a slightly winded bloodstained cimmerian, scared as hell hot chick wrapped around his pillar-thick knee is optional but highly recommended.

O.

[Gwendol]

Pitch a high stats high level Barbarian / Fighter / Rogue against no matter how many buccaneers, kazaks, turanians, zuagiris and what have you, and you still get the same result. A pile of buccaneers, kazaks, turanians, zuagiris corpses, pretty horribly mangled, and a slightly winded bloodstained cimmerian, scared as hell hot chick wrapped around his pillar-thick knee is optional but highly recommended.

LOL! Right on!

Yeah, in the world of Conan, the Barbarian is king (quite litterary) which kind of gives a gague on the power level of everyone else.

[sonofzeal]

Not true: there were weeks between the opening of the movie and the unveiling of the Barbarian fighter kit. Too little time for the kit to be based on the movie interpretation of the character.
Really, that close? And you don't think that timing is a little suspicious? Sounds like an obvious attempt to cash in, to me!




Wow... sonofzeal. How do you do that? Even without knowing the source material, you tend to have an uncanny grasp of the concept of Conan.
Sarcasm? =P Hard to tell.

But while I'm not that familiar with Robert E. Howard, I've read Robert Jordan's take on the man, as well as the Dark Horse comic version, and of course the Arnold movies. Each obviously takes things in different directions. Arnold was more of a Barbarian; Jordan's take was more of a Rogue; and I think Fighter-with-dips might fit the Dark Horse comic one best. In the sources I read, Conan is exceptionally strong and fit as always, but his victories are attributed more to skill with the blade than mere strength of arms. Strength is not a substitute for skill. It helps, and Conan's strength of arms is indeed exceptional, but it's skill that wins the day more often than not.

I'm willing to admit the possibility that Robert E. Howard's take is different. But in Jordan's work I saw someone cunning instead of brutish, and in Dark Horse I saw someone talented instead of merely strong. That's the primary image I have of him.

[Gwendol]

Really, that close? And you don't think that timing is a little suspicious? Sounds like an obvious attempt to cash in, to me!


Last I checked even TSR was a "for-profit" company, so yes. That said, I read there had been Barbarian kits as early as the mid-70's published in Dragon. No idea what they looked like though.

I'm sure that the image of Conan changes depending on your point of view. Based on the Governators movies one would suggest Conan being verbally challenged, along with the camel-smiting (Ex) ability suggested by Greenish. :smallbiggrin:

I was suprised however to find that there were those that objected to the D&D barbarian being (in part) based on the Robert Howard Conan, and that Conan didn't "need" the barbarian class. I hope to have given enough evidence to support my point of view at this point.
If anything, this may lead to a few more (re) discovering the work of Robert Howard.

[Ossian]

Really, that close? And you don't think that timing is a little suspicious? Sounds like an obvious attempt to cash in, to me!


Sarcasm? =P Hard to tell.

But while I'm not that familiar with Robert E. Howard, I've read Robert Jordan's take on the man, as well as the Dark Horse comic version, and of course the Arnold movies. Each obviously takes things in different directions. Arnold was more of a Barbarian; Jordan's take was more of a Rogue; and I think Fighter-with-dips might fit the Dark Horse comic one best. In the sources I read, Conan is exceptionally strong and fit as always, but his victories are attributed more to skill with the blade than mere strength of arms. Strength is not a substitute for skill. It helps, and Conan's strength of arms is indeed exceptional, but it's skill that wins the day more often than not.

I'm willing to admit the possibility that Robert E. Howard's take is different. But in Jordan's work I saw someone cunning instead of brutish, and in Dark Horse I saw someone talented instead of merely strong. That's the primary image I have of him.


I like different takes on Conan, probably the best legacy if the character and something I think Howard would have been happy to witness. He is so captivating, after 80+ years, exactly because he has all sorts of adventures. The base layer of the cake is still the untamed barbarian. He does add on top of that the skill of the experienced soldier and the cunning of the swordsman, the man dealt with field battles, army vs army, and sudden knife fights in muddy and dark alleys, and perfectly blends the skill required to survive both (ferocity and decisiveness being one of the most important, regardless of your "class as a PC"). He is a thief, a captain, a shock trooper, a tracker, a hunter, everything in one bag of bricks with a black mane and cold cruel blue eyes.

All authors take a slightly different angle, in comics, in novels, in films.

By the way (not meaning to derail the thread) anyone knows / likes Kane by Karl Edward Wagner? I used to love it back in the day when I was having sword and sorcery for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

O.

[Helldog]

and that Conan didn't "need" the barbarian class.
He doesn't.

[sonofzeal]

He doesn't.
Indeed.


I've been rereading my Dark Horse and I'm going to revise my earlier build: Ranger2/Rogue4/Fighter4 might actually be more accurate. He's got tracking and some wilderness lore, he fights with two weapons on occasion, and that gets a few more skillpoints into the sorts of skills Conan has demonstrated skill at.

[Gwendol]

He doesn't.

Why? Remember: I base my observation on the "canon" Conan.

I agree with Ossian's assessment that the base layer of the mountaineous cake that is Conan is the untamed barbarian.

[sonofzeal]

Why? Remember: I base my observation on the "canon" Conan.
He could be a Barbarian. You've established that pretty thoroughly, but nobody I saw was actually questioning it. What we're questioning is whether he needs to be a Barbarian, and that's a very separate issue.

Really, I think this might just be an "are classes in-game constructs" issue. If yes, then yes he's a Barbarian, no questions asked. If no, then we look at the abilities shown, and try to tick off as many boxes as we can. Nothing you've shown requires Barbarian to do it; anyone can go into a fury and slaughter pirates if they're good enough, it doesn't require an outright Rage ability. Barbarians do not have a patent on primal fury.

Problem is, Barbarian gets very little that's actually unique and would be noticeable in a novel. So I'll ask this:

- Is Conan ever insufficiently-strong for a certain task until he goes into his berserker frenzy?

or

- Is Conan's skin ever demonstrated as impervious to scratches and dagger-wounds? Not "insignificant flee-bite", but outright "doesn't even bleed"?


(And even those two could be replicated elsewhere - Combat Focus from PHB2 for the first, and Roll With It for the second...)

[Gwendol]

I understand this point of view, but it seems overly complicated and convoluted.

To your questions I answer:

-Yes

-No, DR isn't described as such. He does display something akin to the HP increase due to CON bonus when raging though, taking lots of damage without really slowing down until the battle is over when he grows faint(ish)

On the other hand, he doesn't display much rogueish abilities either: sleight of hand (never), disarming traps (not really), bluff (that's reserved to the "civilized folks"), open locks (and not the dungeoncrasher way: no not that I remember), UMD (no)

He climbs, moves silently (relatively, though the master thief in Tower of the Elephant has no trouble hearing him approach), maybe sneak attacks, but it's hard to tell since he hits so hard anyway. Balances, rides, jumps, and tumbles.

So, there is little support for adding rogue levels, except for more skill points into the skills he does use (ride, jump, climb, balance, etc) which aren't that rogue specific either. It's quite possible to be a thief without class levels in rogue. Wrt traps he fails to recognize them both in Rogues in the House and in Red Nails, which goes to show his experiences as rogue are rather limited.

In that sense it is possible that ranger is a better fit than rogue, but I don't see how you can replace Barbarian without losing some Conan along the way.

[Helldog]

It's quite possible to be a thief without class levels in rogue.
And it is possible to ba a barbarian (or Conan for that matter) without levels of Barbarian.

[Gwendol]

Sure, but it dilutes and complicates the character. And for what purpose?

[Ossian]

I agree it is possible to make do with much fewer levels of barbarian, down to even 1 or 2, and mixing a few more ranger and fighter in the process. Too much "rogue" though does not account for the off the chart vitality he displays on several occasions. That might be nicely mimicked by the Endurance feat, free for rangers, and perhaps improved toughness taken at one of the last levels (+30 something HP?). Too much rogue just won't do, and I think he needs the "rage" (would be nice to get it from a feat, I guess). Basically, the 1st level should be barbarian, because it seems difficult to use another (rage, d12, fast movement, illiteracy, trap sense, although small bonuses do fit the flavour too well to pass on them).

Ranger works too though, let's not forget that he does fight proficiently with 2 weapons, and is a wilderness expert. Stealthy, agile, really really fast, Favoured Enemy: Human (Pict) and Favoured Enemy: Aberration. No spells (there are variants for that, or just a quick houseruling would do) and lots of badassery (EX) :smallsmile:

So a different build could be Barbarian 3 / Fighter 2 / Ranger 7 / Rogue 2, all the way to the latter days of his Aquilonian reign, say

Barbarian 3 / Fighter 6 / Ranger 7 / Rogue 2, 3d12+6d10+7d8+2d6+con+36 (improved toughness).

O.

EDIT: and yes, for me classes are mostly "concepts" so I stick to them very lightly. Hence the crazy multiclassing. I once read a post here about a Samurai who was by class a "barbarian", rage being an insanely focused battle trance that turned him and his katana him into a whirlwind of steel, chopping bone and armour and striking with lethal precision. The malus to AC was the Samurai's disregard for danger while focusing on raining blows on his foes.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

A barbarian 20 can be good enough at non-barbarian stuff.
There are cross-class skills.
Even if Conan hides in the books, provided he's human and he's got good dexterity, if he spent some points in the hide cross-class skill he would still be good enough to not be found by most normal people.
Just because he does it much better than a commoner, (a total bonus of +10 is superhuman) it does not mean he has to excel at it by D&D standards (aka high leveled rogue)
Just my 2 cents

TL;DR: Barbarian 20 can be very good at hiding and if compared to a commoner he will appear superhuman without any Rogue level

[Helldog]

Sure, but it dilutes and complicates the character.
You say that. Some people disagree.


And for what purpose?
Optimization? Creativity?


TL;DR: Barbarian 20 can be very good at hiding and if compared to a commoner he will appear superhuman without any Rogue level
Conan is hardly that high level.

[gkathellar]

Sure, but it dilutes and complicates the character. And for what purpose?

It only dilutes and complicates the character insofar as you view classes as anything other than a metagame construct. Assume the barbarian class is named "mulch-peddler," or something stupid like that. Looking at Conan's abilities independent of any name-based preconceptions, what class best represents him?

Out of core-only, I'd say the resounding and obvious answer is warblade. In core-only, it becomes more tenuous, but I'd say a mix of a few ranger levels, a few rogue levels, a few fighter levels, and maybe even a few mulch-peddler levels.

[Gwendol]

It only dilutes and complicates the character insofar as you view classes as anything other than a metagame construct. Assume the barbarian class is named "mulch-peddler," or something stupid like that. Looking at Conan's abilities independent of any name-based preconceptions, what class best represents him?

Out of core-only, I'd say the resounding and obvious answer is warblade. In core-only, it becomes more tenuous, but I'd say a mix of a few ranger levels, a few rogue levels, a few fighter levels, and maybe even a few mulch-peddler levels.

The answer to your first question is Barbarian; not because of the name, but for the abilities the class brings. I agree that Warblades make a fine Conan, even though many of their abilities are tied to INT, which isn't his strongest suit. Iron heart surge is very Conanesque. Even so, Warblades can't rage, which dilutes the character.

A class is a combination of fluff and numbers, and since the barbarian class is derived from Conan, it fits him fairly well.

[Helldog]

The answer to your first question is Barbarian
I would say Warblade/Rogue or Warblade/Ranger.


not because of the name, but for the abilities the class brings.
Which can be easily represented by abilities from other classes than Barbarian. Heck, some of them are even the exact same abilities, like Uncanny Dodge for example, that's a class feature of both Rogue and Warblade.


I agree that Warblades make a fine Conan
And yet you strongly believe that he can be only a Barbarian because supposedly the class was based on him. :smallconfused:


even though many of their abilities are tied to INT, which isn't his strongest suit
Isn't Conan supposed to be smarter than an average barbarian?


Even so, Warblades can't rage, which dilutes the character.
Warblades can rage. You pick a stance that does what you want, descibe it as a rage, and voila. There's even a discipline that is all about releasing your inner beast!


A class is a combination of fluff and numbers, and since the barbarian class is derived from Conan, it fits him fairly well.
A class is a combination of numbers and abilities that can have any fluff tied to it. So a Fighter/Rogue can easily be called Conan The Barbarian.

[Gavinfoxx]

even though many of their abilities are tied to INT, which isn't his strongest suit.

What? He is always described as really, really intelligent...

[Mystify]

It seems odd to say "This class was based on conan, but it doesn't actually fit him".
It seems even odder to say"He has a rage, but we shouldn't add barbarian, cause that rage could be anything!"
Based on the arguements, he sounds like a barbarian ranger to me, with some levels of fighter. Full BaB, stealthy, skilled with a blade, able to rage...
Rogue doesn't sound like it fits well, since the entire justification for it was a few skills that are hardly unique to rogue, and rogue has a ton of abilities that don't fit. I'm not sure if he has a weapon style from ranger; does he ever use a bow/two weapons? If not, he could have a two handed weapon ACF. Favored enemy human might not be misplaced, under the general idea that if he is fighting people for the most part, he will have skills and tactics that are better against them than other opponents.

[gkathellar]

I agree that Warblades make a fine Conan, even though many of their abilities are tied to INT, which isn't his strongest suit.

... no, I'd say the Int riders are a perfect fit. Being strong is more important than being smart to a warblade, but being smart definitely helps. And Conan is smart, which helps him, even though his greatest attribute is probably strength. A = A.


Iron heart surge is very Conanesque. Even so, Warblades can't rage, which dilutes the character.

Conan's fury doesn't run out after 60-90 seconds before inflicting fatigue, and it doesn't prevent him from using his head. Rage dilutes the character.

Even as early as first level, maneuvers and stances approximate Conan's fury better than the actual rage mechanic (Steely Strike, Punishing Stance, Stone Bones, Charging Minotaur, Stonefoot Stance, and Hunter's Sense: I'm looking at you). Seriously, open up ToB and look at the list of warblade maneuvers. I'm having a harder time finding the ones that don't fit Conan than I am singling out the ones that do.

EDIT:

It seems odd to say "This class was based on conan, but it doesn't actually fit him".

Yeah, just like saying, "D&D 3.5 was based on heroic fantasy films and novels, but is largely dissimilar to them in practice."

Oh wait.

[Mystify]

.
Yeah, just like saying, "D&D 3.5 was based on heroic fantasy films and novels, but is largely dissimilar to them in practice."

Oh wait.
No, it would be like saying "D&D 3.5 was based on heroic fantasy films and novels, but GURPS is better at it"

[Helldog]

No, it would be like saying "D&D 3.5 was based on heroic fantasy films and novels, but GURPS is better at it"
So you also are saying that Conan has to absolutely be a Barbarian?

[Mystify]

So you also are saying that Conan has to absolutely be a Barbarian?

No. Just like you can play a fantasy game with GURPS, but D&D is better suited. You can make any character without the class obviously suited for it. But why would you want to? I could sit here and model a master theif without touching rogue, that doesn't mean rogue isn't well-suited for it.

[Helldog]

You can make any character without the class obviously suited for it.
Obviously suited doesn't mean the best. And just because Conan is called a barbarian doesn't mean that Barbarian is best suited for him. Other classes can be better, both power-wise and fluff-wise.

[Mystify]

Obviously suited doesn't mean the best. And just because Conan is called a barbarian doesn't mean that Barbarian is best suited for him. Other classes can be better, both power-wise and fluff-wise.
Barbarian seems like a perfectly suited component from what I've seen. He has what is clearly a rage. He is a strong warrior with a decent skill selection, with uncanny dodge. First 2 levels of barbarian seem a given, much more than rogue does.
Warblade may indeed fit him better, but only because initiators make all other martial classes obsolete.

[Gwendol]

What? He is always described as really, really intelligent...

Where is that (relevant quote please)? He has the cunning of the wild, etc, and certainly not dumb, but as for sheer intellectual power this is his weakest point. He is superstitious, falls for rather simple ploys more than once, etc. In D&D terms I'd place his INT as 11-12.

I've never said anything but Warblade being a good fit. But that speaks more about the superiority of ToB classes when it comes to modelling heroic warriors than how well it suits the specific character.


Conan's fury doesn't run out after 60-90 seconds before inflicting fatigue, and it doesn't prevent him from using his head. Rage dilutes the character.

But, Conan's rage does affect him using his head! That's the point! The rage of the Barbarian class is practically modelled after Conan (and the vikings, yadayadayada).

[Helldog]

But, Conan's rage does affect him using his head!
Where is that (relevant quote please)?

[Gwendol]

Plenty. In Red Nails, he flies into rage as he approaches the chamber where Valeria is about to be sacrified, and races by the king with whom he has an uneasy truce before raging he had him take lead. The king (can't bother to look up his name) hits him over the head, but is unable to do much but stun him momentarily. Conan kills him (of course) but that was not the wisest course of action by far.

Queen of the Black Coast: Conan is dragged in front of the judge for questioning, but refuses to give up the location of a friend, and after a heated discussion, loses his head before cleaving that of the judge. He then has to cut himself out of court and flee out of town.

Really, just pick a story yourself.

[Helldog]

That aren't quotes.

[Gwendol]

Nope, but they are references. You can look them up yourself, the stories are all rather short, and available on the web (fell into public domain).

[Callos_DeTerran]

Wow... sonofzeal. How do you do that? Even without knowing the source material, you tend to have an uncanny grasp of the concept of Conan.

My husband is obsessed with Conan, and has imposed upon me Robert E. Howard's collected works by reading them to me last year, and I have to say, I'd trust you're build over anyone else's here so far.

But you could place an argument that he's a Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue/Monk/Ranger/Druid Avenger/Paladin of Freedom (at the end of his career) as well. In fact, as long as you homebrew out the casting... any martial class will do. Robert E. Howard wanted to create a character that was better than everyone: an unbeatable force of wild justice. If I remember correctly, Conan actually fights Set himself once (with a Paladin-like blessing from Crom and wins.

Conan only sucks at two things: keeping his girlfriends alive, and using magic. Actually, it became rather predictable that he's what would have happened if James Kirk and James Bond had a baby and let it be raised by wolves: a proud, but stealthy, acrobatic warrior who has wild sex with the redshirts. *eyeroll* At least he avenges their deaths...

I think I remember in the last book, he's like 90 or something and has abandoned his family and kingdom to go on one last adventure to a weird foreign land. He meets a prostitute who takes one look at his old wrinkled frame and decides she must have him. They do their thing... and the prostitute actually pouts when he gets up to leave because she's never had it so good and therefore wishes he never had to leave.

...

*blink, blink*

Let me just say... I think Robert E. Howard may have been a Mary Sue. Still, the books were fun to read even though they were a little too predictable, self-indulgent, and borderline pornographic.

Conan isn't better then everyone though. There's more then a few times that something is stronger then him, someone is smarter, faster, more skilled, etc. He's not the BEST at everything and there's somethings he just won't do (magic, for one). He survives because he also knows the other things and isn't afraid to fight dirty in the least bit. If Conan can take the enemy by surprise or from stealth, he does so (sneak attack, I can name numerous instances in all but the movies that Conan could have been using sneak attack). If he can lure them into a trap, he does that. If there is some way he can make his opponent fight worse and himself better he does that.

...Also, if Conan ever fought Set (with a blessing from Crom at that), it must not have been one of Howard's books cause Conan would be dead...or insane to believe Crom blessed him.

...One minor stickler, Conan has a half-and-half rate of keeping the women he loves alive, cause he's only loved two of them. The Pirate Queen (died) and Zenobia (his wife). One cannot be held to blame for keeping alive one-night stands, though he does make an admirable effort nonetheless. :smalltongue:


Actually, he uses magic too. It was in the cartoon show Conan the Barbarian. The Druid dude teaches him magic to charm/calm animals. And he successfully uses it and learns his animal spirit is a Lion.
Her fights against Set and his serpent men lead by Wrath-a-mon.
Had a talking baby pheonix friend was an awesome show.

...

...

...

We will never speak of that cartoon again.


D&D magic users are light years away from Conan. There are a few low level sorcerers, that perhaps have touch spells and a few illusions. Enough to be scary (as the source of such power is often unspeakably ancient and evil) but also weak enough that, if Conan gets within melee range, they are toast.

Other magic users are more like high level fighters with UMD and some crazy stuff (wands, rings etc...) that gives them a massive edge in combat

Others yet are more priest like in nature, worshippers of Dark Gods and basically powerful just on the account of them being able to read old stygian or some scary language like that.

It seems like most of the really powerful ones are scary scary scary because of some ancient pact with the evil powers. Xalthotun, for example, is a resurrected mummy with a perfectly normal (even handsome) appearance of a once all powerful sorcerer, but you don`t see him doing anything more than what a level 4 or 5 Sorcerer would do on a good day.

In general, they use magic sparsely, rely on scheming and on using minions, and either use many low level spells (say 1 to 3, curses, illusions, scrying, de-buffs, low energy elements etc...) or just plan frikking level 11 miracles that shatter continents.

Conan, justly, fears them. Like everyone in their right mind. Unlike "everyone", Conan can prescribe high-iron diets to Sorcerer when climax is nigh.

While his barbaric and primordial nature makes him superstitious (and somehow even vulnerable) to spells (especially with Will save to negate) it also grants him the epic vitality of the hero, so as to shrug off some of the worse de-buffs or to go home with his hide (and that of the sorcerer, neatly folded in A4 format) despite their adverse effects.

I think that for that, the barbarian class does give him justice. As for his being generally awesome, there is a good reason why E6 works that well, because in low magic, tough combat scenarios like Conan's, a normal lvl 20 character is just too powerful. You are a frikkin god of war.

Conan, outside the E6 and anywhere above level 10 (pretty much in any combination of classes) is as faithful as it gets, to the books. Pitch a high stats high level Barbarian / Fighter / Rogue against no matter how many buccaneers, kazaks, turanians, zuagiris and what have you, and you still get the same result. A pile of buccaneers, kazaks, turanians, zuagiris corpses, pretty horribly mangled, and a slightly winded bloodstained cimmerian, scared as hell hot chick wrapped around his pillar-thick knee is optional but highly recommended.

O.

Depends on the wizard or sorcerer really. Some are...basically charlatans, their magic just alchemical mixtures, cultural brain-washing, tricks, and chicanery.

...Others are much more potent, both within Howard's novels and outside them.



Conan is hardly that high level.

The Epic Level Handbook disagrees with you, quoting Conan as an example of a high level character.

Honestly, while the Barbarian class does have some elements of what Conan should be able to do, the class on a whole better describes...the idea of what people thought a barbarian should be from Conan's example rather then Conan himself. Honestly, a rogue/warblade mix is the best build for Conan, Barbarian would never come into the picture. Even in just core only, I'd only use barbarian levels for essentially the d12 HD rather then the rage since all the instances of Conan over-powering his opponents while getting angry (and in these instances it's always a struggle between the two at first) can be easily explained by 'he rolled higher then his opponent finally', without ever needing the actual rage class feature.

[Helldog]

I will concede that Conan is a Barbarian only when the creator of Conan will come out and say that he is indeed that class.


The Epic Level Handbook disagrees with you, quoting Conan as an example of a high level character.
ELH is certainly the autority on novel characters and how high level they are, I'm sure.

[Gwendol]

Considering RE Howard took his own life at the age of 30 that's not likely happening. Thanks for playing though!

I don't see how rogue fits with Conan: too many class features that aren't used. Urban ranger instead?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Other than trapsense (which he'd trade for lightbringer) what rogue class features does Conan not display?

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

ELH is certainly the autority on novel characters and how high level they are, I'm sure.
ELH is entitled to decide wether a fictional character is high or low level within D&D environment (because they created D&D)

[Helldog]

ELH is entitled to decide wether a fictional character is high or low level within D&D environment (because they created D&D)
Not when the character in question doesn't display the amount of skill or power that a high level D&D character has.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Not when the character in question doesn't display the amount of skill or power that a high level D&D character has.
Without proper equip?

[Helldog]

Without proper equip?
What does that have to do with anything?

It's like with stating Aragorn. In movies or books he certainly is described as a great hero, but when you actually analyze what he was doing, he isn't high level, he's just about 5th level (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html).

[Akal Saris]

Or, let's put some numbers to this. I claim that, in a 10th level build, Conan would be better represented as Barbarian2/Rogue4/Fighter4 than by straight Barbarian10. Am I wrong?

I'd agree with this - Conan does a LOT of sneaking around and seems to have quite the skills with the ladies. I'd almost say he's a Barb 5/Rogue 5, as terrible a combination as that would be.

[Gwendol]

I'd agree with this - Conan does a LOT of sneaking around and seems to have quite the skills with the ladies. I'd almost say he's a Barb 5/Rogue 5, as terrible a combination as that would be.

Yeah, he practically co-authored "The Game" :smallwink:
See this passage as example of his wooing skills:

He grinned hardly, and his fierce blue eyes burned with a light any
woman could understand as they ran over her magnificent figure,
lingering on the swell of her splendid breasts beneath the light
shirt, and the clear white flesh displayed between breeches and boot-
tops.

"Don't you know?" he laughed. "Haven't I made my admiration for you
plain ever since I first saw you?"

"A stallion could have made it no plainer," she answered disdainfully.
"But I never expected to encounter you so far from the ale barrels and
meatpots of Sukhmet. Did you really follow me from Zarallo's camp, or
were you whipped forth for a rogue?"

He laughed at her insolence and flexed his mighty biceps.

So, yeah. Not so much skill as an animal force of attraction (high CHA).

I've detailed why I don't think rogue is such a great fit elsewhere in this thread (#47).

[Ossian]

Sneak attack isn't just about backstabbing people. It 's about catching them flat footed and hitting a vital spot (also know as "howardian brain smear").

Let's make an example: Conan is laying low, well camouflaged. He spots a band of 5 or 6 pict warriors. Conan emerges from the bushes and charges, landing in their midst and "2 Handed Favourite Power Attacking" them all, with cleave, Great Cleave and Mighty Cleave (allows you to move between cleave attempts) he lands terrifying blows with his broadsword = 1d8 + 6 (STR 1.5, for two handed) +16 (using 4 points of favourite two handed PA) + 2d6 (sneak attack). 22-39 HP per hit? Throw in Leap Attack for extra juice, and it sounds all right to me. Maybe the pict chieftain was a level 3 brute, who might well not go down with a less than awesome blow. So I'd say that Sneak Attack is totally all right. Start the blender, cimmerian.

Other roguish traits are: his ability to learn new languages (skill monkey, in a short story he is clearly able to tall the various accents from one another), his knowledge of several local urban environment (knowledge local) a bit of history of old civilizations, some bluff (for feinting), etc etc...

Rogue works well for a mild optimization, for the high Reflex Saves. Trapfinding should be traded for something else, but uncanny dodge (the steel blur, impossible to just corner or flank in the wildest melee) and trap-sense (an instinct alerted him of the falling boulder...a lesser man / civilized man would have died etc...) is also up his alley.

Trap Sense (Ex)
"At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level."

Stop at level 4, so as to not lose too much vitality (HP) and BaB.


O.

[Callos_DeTerran]

ELH is certainly the autority on novel characters and how high level they are, I'm sure.

Not at all in fact, but it can be used to determine by the creators of the game who they would stat up as an epic level character. And if Conan would be portrayed as a barbarian by WotC (and lets face it, he would be), then a couple of the Epic Rage feats, the 'automatically vorpal weapon', and whatnot could be reasonably said to be within Conan's range of shown abilities since WotC used him as a reference to epic characters, among others.

[Ossian]

Let's not forget the power level as "intended". My wild guess here is that an epic level character would also be loaded with magic items, or be able to cast epic spells. Conan, dressed in a loincloth and chain shirt, armed with a simple iron sword and iron dagger, would not last a round with Epic CL creatures. In D&D, a party is expected to defeat those creatures, and in a fair fight while at it. Conan goes home with his skin and not more than that after those encounters (although some of the demonic foes he faces might have any CL from 5 to 50). He survives battles where the odds are stacked heavily against him, but that does not mean he is an epic level barbarian (or whatever class he is at the end of his career). Personally, I would be ok to have Conan end his career (say, mid 60s) as a lower epic levels character with the wealth by level of a level 5 fighter, and perhaps a low grade of optimization (multiclass galore). That + age modifiers would somehow justify the statement on the ELH.

It does seem like they were hinting at "Conan in his prime is a level 20+ character) though. In that sense, I think that the setting and some houseruling / non core rules have to play a key role. My mind goes to Star Wars RCR and the combination of Wound Points ( = CON score) - Vs vitality points (HP) and the class based armour class bonuses.

In that system, even Mace Windu would not be immortal and could be killed (although very unlikely) by a cheap blaster shot. Yoda, Darth Vader, Palpatine, or even upper teen / lower epic characters (like Darth Revan or Exar Kun or some ancient Sith Lord) would all be able to mown down tons of mooks, but would not be able to go toe-to-toe with an AT-AT walker (well, not without some cunning idea). Ironically, a level 30 D&D fighter with appropriate WBL might actually succeed at it :smallbiggrin:

[Mystify]

You do not need to add in sneak attack to represent catching people by surprise. In the example presented,2d6 of sneak attack damage is only about 7 more damage, making the damage 15-32. Against flat-footed AC, he's likely to hit. so is that 7hp/hit nessecary to trigger great cleave? Probably not. The extra accuracy from flat-footed can fuel more power attack. And then assume he wins initiative. He now gets a charge/cleave and a full attack to clear out the room before anyone else can even react.
surprise rounds are deadly even without sneak attack. Esp. when you have such a high damage base. That calculation wasn't even counting any possible impact of rage.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

The extra accuracy from flat-footed can fuel more power attack
This.
A full barbarian can very well represent Conan.

Just because he does it, it does not mean he's specialized at it.

I bet that if we were talking about Pathfinder, where single class ise encouraged by the system, most people would agree on pure barbarian.

[Helldog]

You do not need to add in sneak attack to represent catching people by surprise.
You don't need Rage to represent people raging in combat.
Sneak Attack isn't needed, but it is a reasonable ability for him to have, because (from what I know) he always tries to attack from surprise and stacks every advantage he can, so being able to Sneak Attack is completely in character. It just fits, optimization-wise.


Just because he does it, it does not mean he's specialized at it.
No one says that he does. +1d6 or 2d6 is hardly specialization. It's just a small bonus.

[Mystify]

You don't need Rage to represent people raging in combat.
Sneak Attack isn't needed, but it is a reasonable ability for him to have, because (from what I know) he always tries to attack from surprise and stacks every advantage he can, so being able to Sneak Attack is completely in character. It just fits, optimization-wise.


No one says that he does. +1d6 or 2d6 is hardly specialization. It's just a small bonus.
I think he would be better off optimizing for damage in the general case instead of sinking 3 levels into a 1 round advantage, esp. when you are already gaining a huge advantage for the surprise round. If you are taking sneak attack JUST for surprise rounds, you are making a very poor decision. A rage is a rage, and it fits perfectly. Saying he needs sneak attack because he likes surprise rounds is not true. Rangers also like sneaking up on people and getting surprise rounds. You don't see them piling on sneak attack dice. Sneak attack doesn't even model it well. If you are building in sneak attack, you should be expecting to use it frequently. From flanking, feinting, hide and return, but some method beyond the first round of combat. You would be much better served by charge damage, since that could be utilized several times in a combat, not just the first round. Saying the has 2d6 sneak attack so he hits slightly harder in a surprise round would be saying that Conan is a very unoptimized character.

[Helldog]

If you are taking sneak attack JUST for surprise rounds, you are making a very poor decision.
But he's not taking Rogue just for Sneak Attack. He also needs the skills and Uncanny Dodge (maybe even Evasion).
You're focusing too much on just one thing, man.


A rage is a rage, and it fits perfectly.
A rage is any ability that represents what Conan does. Rage, apart from having an appropriate name, is the most straightforward. Which doesn't mean it's the best.
Your only argument is that it's called rage in fluff, so it must be Barbarians Rage. It doesn't. Many other abilities can represent a rage just as good, and be better power-wise.


Saying he needs sneak attack because he likes surprise rounds is not true.
Good that I'm not saying it, then.


Saying the has 2d6 sneak attack so he hits slightly harder in a surprise round would be saying that Conan is a very unoptimized character.
He is. He's fighting mostly mooks, and when he fights something on his level, the only thing that makes him win is plot armor. He's the protagonist afterall.

[Gavinfoxx]

Shouldn't Conan be something more like... uh... a Whirling Frenzy, Pounce Barbarian 1/Wilderness, Penetrating Strike Rogue 3/Strong-Arm, Skilled City Dweller (trade Ride for Tumble) Ranger 3/Zhentarim, Thug, Dungeon Crusher, Physical Prowess Fighter 3/Warblade X?

[Gwendol]

Shouldn't Conan be something more like... uh... a Whirling Frenzy, Pounce Barbarian 1/Wilderness, Penetrating Strike Rogue 3/Strong-Arm, Skilled City Dweller (trade Ride for Tumble) Ranger 3/Zhentarim, Thug, Dungeon Crusher, Physical Prowess Fighter 3/Warblade X?

Yeah, something along those lines. I personally would use more barbarian, but to each his own Conan. I like the zhent fighter in there: good catch!

[Gavinfoxx]

Maybe two levels of Barbarian, then? Add Wolf Totem?

[Gwendol]

For the trip? More Bear totem 2 for getting imp grapple me thinks.

[Gavinfoxx]

Hmm, good point.