Help me with Planar Binding [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Jon_Dahl

2012-01-30, 07:53 AM

Aidan305

2012-01-30, 08:40 AM

The Pathfinder supplement Ultimate Magic is by far the best for Planar Binding stuff. I'll go check it.

Important question: What sort of Angel was it? They all have different goals and preferences according to their position. Also, was it an Angel or Archon?

Urpriest

2012-01-30, 09:24 AM

Any reason this isn't in the 3.5 forum?

Silva Stormrage

2012-01-30, 01:02 PM

You don't NEED to have a reward for the task. If the angel doesn't want to accept a reward and just wants to continue it then he is free to do it. Though I believe that he would be sent back home as the spell ends after a year though.

Madeiner

2012-01-30, 01:20 PM

A wizard calls out an angel (lawful good) using a Planar Binding. He asks the angel to guard his wife while his gone for one year. The mission is not open-ended: The angel can fulfill it through his own actions - He/she just needs to guard the wife for exactly one year. By definition, it's not an open-ended quest.

However, the wizard gets killed during his journeys and a year flies past. After that time the angel has successfully guarded the wife for one year, but wants to stay and continue his mission for a few more months. All in all, the angel loves this quest and is into it from the day one.

Questions:
1. How much would be the price for this kind of service?
2. Would this be an open-ended service?
3. Does the angel disappear after the duration has ended or can he/she choose to stay?
4. In general, would all this work?
5. How would this be different if it was a devil or a demon?

1. Price? It's an angel you are talking of. Price is OF COURSE not money or magic items i think. Your price should cover, FOR THE ANGEL, the "cost" of not being able to save the amount of people he would have saved in a year.

2. No, it's "serve me for one year for a specific task"

3. There was a thread about this. Someone will answer for sure :)

4. To me? Absolutely not. First, you are KIDNAPPING an Angel, taking him away from his duties etctera. That was Planar BINDING does. The Angel is in a dungeon saving a thousand innocent people, he fails a will save and he appears at your place, forced and unwilling.
THEN you COMMAND him to serve you, trying to BRIBE him, because to you, lowly mortal, your wife is more important than everyone else.
I also believe you should become neutral, in the event you are good, just for trying to planar bind an angel, unless you are in an extreme need for assistance intended not only for you, but for a good cause, and even then you just ASK the angel if he would like to help you, and explain that you summoned him through a planar binding only because it was the only spell you could use but never intended to trap him and that you are sorry.

5. Well it's another world, but you get a demon that tries to kill you after your spell wears out. If you are dead, he may resurrect you and show you as he kills your wife in front of you after the spell is over, then informing you how he will kill all your friends, family and companions unless YOU serve him for eternity. That's my view, anyway.

NinjaStylerobot

2012-01-30, 05:10 PM

Well I would simply have the angel be there. Its kinda charming.

I mean Yes I GUESS the angel could be up in heaven doing nothing but this is just so charming.

SamBurke

2012-01-30, 05:13 PM

Depends on the world, honestly.

My current design project, Vengar, is based on the idea of epic tales, of incredible sacrifice in the fight of good against evil. Something like that would fit in quite nicely, I'd bet.

Now, contrast that to the incredibly gloomy Dark Sun, in which death is pretty much guaranteed, life stinks, and everyone hates everyone and wants to kill everyone. Wouldn't fit the same way.

HMS Invincible

2012-01-30, 11:18 PM

1. Price? It's an angel you are talking of. Price is OF COURSE not money or magic items i think. Your price should cover, FOR THE ANGEL, the "cost" of not being able to save the amount of people he would have saved in a year.

2. No, it's "serve me for one year for a specific task"

3. There was a thread about this. Someone will answer for sure :)

4. To me? Absolutely not. First, you are KIDNAPPING an Angel, taking him away from his duties etctera. That was Planar BINDING does. The Angel is in a dungeon saving a thousand innocent people, he fails a will save and he appears at your place, forced and unwilling.
THEN you COMMAND him to serve you, trying to BRIBE him, because to you, lowly mortal, your wife is more important than everyone else.
I also believe you should become neutral, in the event you are good, just for trying to planar bind an angel, unless you are in an extreme need for assistance intended not only for you, but for a good cause, and even then you just ASK the angel if he would like to help you, and explain that you summoned him through a planar binding only because it was the only spell you could use but never intended to trap him and that you are sorry.

5. Well it's another world, but you get a demon that tries to kill you after your spell wears out. If you are dead, he may resurrect you and show you as he kills your wife in front of you after the spell is over, then informing you how he will kill all your friends, family and companions unless YOU serve him for eternity. That's my view, anyway.
On part 4, I've had the opposite problem. My DM complained when I binded neutral elementals because the spell is kidnapping as you stated. However, when I binded an angel and asked him for a favor, he got mad at me for kidnapping a good creature. So then I decide to bind an evil creature, but then he noted how that the type of creature binded makes planar binding a spell of that type. Which, in his world, taints the caster. Evil spells make casters more evil, good spells make you more good.
This leads me in a bind, I can only bind neutral or good outsiders/elementals and I can only ask them for favors with payment. =\ Yuck. I'm thinking that binding, aka kidnapping, an evil creature, and forcing him to work for me to do a good act, ought to cancel out and make me neutral. Or if that fails, to hell with my alignment, I'll just do what I think is best. Can't afford to keep paying and bargaining with every single outsider just because I want a ride across the river or to have them drop something off.
Edit: Errr, I digress too much.
As for the OP, depending on the strength of an angel, he can simply visit again to guard the wife. Remember how it says in planar binding that outsiders may consider revenge upon you? This is just like that, the angel wants to come back and do something after the binding ends. Otherwise, have another caster cast planar binding, but add in a focus to call the same angel. The obvious answer is his true name, but a safer route is to homebrew a focus that the angel gives you which will call him back to the wife. Simple example here.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0528.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0529.html

Madeiner

2012-01-31, 06:34 PM

On part 4, I've had the opposite problem. My DM complained when I binded neutral elementals because the spell is kidnapping as you stated. However, when I binded an angel and asked him for a favor, he got mad at me for kidnapping a good creature. So then I decide to bind an evil creature, but then he noted how that the type of creature binded makes planar binding a spell of that type. Which, in his world, taints the caster. Evil spells make casters more evil, good spells make you more good.
This leads me in a bind, I can only bind neutral or good outsiders/elementals and I can only ask them for favors with payment. =\ Yuck. I'm thinking that binding, aka kidnapping, an evil creature, and forcing him to work for me to do a good act, ought to cancel out and make me neutral. Or if that fails, to hell with my alignment, I'll just do what I think is best. Can't afford to keep paying and bargaining with every single outsider just because I want a ride across the river or to have them drop something off.

Well, i don't think planar binding an evil creature makes a spell evil. But that's your DM call. HOWEVER, then binding a good creature is a good act (still i find this laughable).Otherwise there's just no consistency.

You may say that BINDING is an evil act; that i can agree with. But then it applies to neutral creatures aswell.

Binding demons is not evil per se, but has great chances of unleashed a demon on your world that is then free to do whatever he wants to, probably bad things. So you should use it with caution.

Btw, how often do you bind things? Aren't you making a lot of enemies? Binding should be a serious business i think. Not just to "cross the river"

Jack_Simth

2012-01-31, 06:52 PM

Well, i don't think planar binding an evil creature makes a spell evil. But that's your DM call.
Actually, it is explicitly stated in the spell from which the line inherits, Lesser Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm): "When you use a calling spell to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type. "

HOWEVER, then binding a good creature is a good act (still i find this laughable).Otherwise there's just no consistency.
Yes. Of course, the Magic Circle you use is generally going to be the opposite alignment... although that's why you use Magic Circle Against Law to call Archons; they'll usually have less objection to a Chaotic act than an Evil one... usually.

Which, if the spells 'corrupt' in the direction of the descriptor, gives the OP an 'out' - Heighten the Magic Circle Against Law to be of equal or higher level than the Binding used, bind an Archon, then point out to the DM that in doing this, you're doing an explicitly [Lawful], [Good], [Chaotic] act, by the book, so that the evil act in forcing the critter to serve you is probably canceled out by the act of casting a Good-aligned spell.

Alternately: Specify a bored version of what you're binding. Look at the planar section in the DMG. See the Twin Planes of Bytopia? Infinite in size. Check out the random encounter table: It uses the Celestial encounters table... which includes angels. Thus, there's a nonzero density of angels in Bytopia. Now check out infinite in size - we've now established that an infinite plane has a positive density of angels. There are infinite angels, by math and game definitions. Surely this also means that there are an infinite number of them that don't have anything important to do for the next X timeframe, which might be amenable to a small deal?

For small tasks, of course, you're probably better served with a Summoning spell anyway....

Steward

2012-02-01, 12:48 AM

Summoning is safer, but the duration is so low that it won't work.

If you're concerned about respecting the angel, use planar binding to ask it if it will be willing to help your wife. Then if the angel says yes, give it a place to meet you and then dismiss the spell.

I think by RAW the angel can then travel to and from the Material and the celestial realms at will, and stay for as long it needs to

HMS Invincible

2012-02-01, 08:48 PM

Yea, I think my DM has more problems with the act of binding, that or he just wants me to pay money every time.

Question about summon monster spells, it says celestial creatures have an int of at least 3, how does that translate into knowing common? This is related since summon monsters only obey you if you can communicate with them. Otherwise, they just attack the closest living hostile. My DM has been ruling that animals don't know common, and treantmonk's guide says otherwise.

Coidzor

2012-02-01, 09:21 PM

1. Price? It's an angel you are talking of. Price is OF COURSE not money or magic items i think. Your price should cover, FOR THE ANGEL, the "cost" of not being able to save the amount of people he would have saved in a year.

Angels? Save people? That's what adventurers are for, my good dwarf, doing the dirty work so that the Angels on high can avoid scuffing up their pretty filigreed swords.

My DM complained when I binded neutral elementals because the spell is kidnapping as you stated. However, when I binded an angel and asked him for a favor, he got mad at me for kidnapping a good creature. So then I decide to bind an evil creature, but then he noted how that the type of creature binded makes planar binding a spell of that type. Which, in his world, taints the caster. Evil spells make casters more evil, good spells make you more good.

Occam's Razor would mean that you should probably call your DM on being an ass and suggest he actually use a fix of planar binding or just outright ban it if he has such a problem with it rather than whining about it being used. :smallyuk:

At least, if Jack Simth's suggestions get you negative responses that you can't work with.

Jack_Simth

2012-02-01, 09:27 PM

Summoning is safer, but the duration is so low that it won't work.

Hence, 'for small tasks'.

If you're concerned about respecting the angel, use planar binding to ask it if it will be willing to help your wife. Then if the angel says yes, give it a place to meet you and then dismiss the spell.

I think by RAW the angel can then travel to and from the Material and the celestial realms at will, and stay for as long it needs to
Actually, by RAW, after the deal is done, they go back when they choose to do so and can stay for as long as they like. See the Magic Overview (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#calling):
A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled. (emphasis added)

Yea, I think my DM has more problems with the act of binding, that or he just wants me to pay money every time.

Question about summon monster spells, it says celestial creatures have an int of at least 3, how does that translate into knowing common? This is related since summon monsters only obey you if you can communicate with them. Otherwise, they just attack the closest living hostile. My DM has been ruling that animals don't know common, and treantmonk's guide says otherwise.
This is part of Reading the Monster Entries (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#abilities), under Abilities, Intelligence:
A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise). (emphasis added)

So the animal entry doesn't specify any languages... and the Celestial / Fiendish templates don't specify any languages, but bring the critter's Int score to at least 3, which invokes the clause about speaking common.

tyckspoon

2012-02-01, 09:41 PM

Question about summon monster spells, it says celestial creatures have an int of at least 3, how does that translate into knowing common? This is related since summon monsters only obey you if you can communicate with them. Otherwise, they just attack the closest living hostile. My DM has been ruling that animals don't know common, and treantmonk's guide says otherwise.

Intelligence

A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).

It's in the 'How to read monster stat blocks' stuff. Everything that is of Int >= 3 knows a language, and since the Celestial/Fiendish templates don't specify any languages, it defaults to Common.

It'd probably be worth picking up Celestial as a spoken language if you intend to use a lot of Summon Monster, tho- while intelligent beings indisputably know a language, your DM may rule that language for a low-int creature isn't necessarily Common.

Steward

2012-02-01, 11:06 PM

A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.

You're absolutely right, but I think that the sentence you underlined suggests that the angel (or whatever) can only leave/return once, right? I'm having a hard time parsing that sentence another way, but my idea was that if your concern is the ethical ramifications of enslaving a creature of goodness, it would be better to remove the stricture of planar binding as soon as possible, to give it the maximum amount of latitude that you can give it. The way I read the spell -- which could be wrong, of course -- is that while the calling effect does give them that 'one-time-only' go-and-come-back thing, once they use it up they're stuck unless you let them go, which isn't bad at all for practical purposes but might bother someone who is concerned about the whole enslaving-angels-is-evil thing.

Hence, 'for small tasks'.

Is guarding someone for a year really a small task? It doesn't seem that the OP wants a small task done -- the Summon monster spells only let monsters stick around for rounds/level. If each round is six seconds long, doesn't that mean that -- barring any sort of feat, the OP's mage could only summon something for -- at best -- less than a minute. Outside of combat, you might as well just make a homunculus or something! :smallbiggrin:

HMS Invincible

2012-02-02, 02:10 PM

Benly

2012-02-02, 02:38 PM

My suggestion: ask the GM if you can cast the spell without a Magic Circle so that there's no special enforcement keeping the angel there. The idea is that the spell just calls the angel, it's free to go home if it doesn't like the deal you offer, and so you can negotiate in good faith with no element of "kidnapping" involved.

Obviously, this is only recommended for beings you're pretty sure won't attack you for having the nerve to contact them in the first place.

Alternately, ask if you can research an arcane version of Planar Ally instead.

Coidzor

2012-02-02, 03:04 PM

Alright, thanks for the tips and advice. I'm going to have to work with the DM because hes stated before that solving the problem right away isn't fun, nor allowed. Aka, casting a save or die on the first round is usually an autofail. I have to give a task that will help with the problem, but not make everyone else feel useless.

*facepalm* I'm very sorry to hear that. I'd recommend against SoDs in general though, much better to do Save and Sucks, especially with a person like that DMing. Then he has to be baldfaced about it and you get better capital to use as leverage against him to either appeal to whatever good is left in him or to strongarm him with the rest of the group.

Though, really, you should only be planar binding to supplement plans or gather minion bodies for necromantic purposes to begin with.

As GOD (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God), you either have to shepherd the useless characters around so everyone can try to have fun, or you teach them how to be competent at playing the game.