[3.5] General Epic magic and build

[graymachine]

I'm looking into epic magic for a campaign and thought to start a thread for general discussion in an attempt to pool playgrounder knowledge. To that effect, a few starting topics:

A) Perrusing the internet common oddities seem to crop up. For example, spellcraft in the mid-30s at 21st level seems common, but unrealistically low to me. Even with only a +10 skill-boosting item, a character should have a 44 in spellcraft (24 ranks, +10 from attribute, +10 from item.) It's fairly easy to get it much higher. What would be a good, reasonable skill?

B) At the high levels required for epic casting, it becomes easy for a character to cross the threshold into cheesy munchkinism. It gets tricky since whatever edges you can garnish seem to be the deciding factor at such high power levels. Obviously, it is a matter of opinion up to the individual DM, but is there a line we can commonly agree on that crosses efficency into the realm of cheese?

C) At what level should a player begin planning and developing their character for epic spellcasting? What would you consider and efficient build for epic spellcasting and why? Any class preferences in regards to epic spellcasting, or are they all essentially the same at that point?

[Mystify]

I'm looking into epic magic for a campaign and thought to start a thread for general discussion in an attempt to pool playgrounder knowledge. To that effect, a few starting topics:

A) Perrusing the internet common oddities seem to crop up. For example, spellcraft in the mid-30s at 21st level seems common, but unrealistically low to me. Even with only a +10 skill-boosting item, a character should have a 44 in spellcraft (24 ranks, +10 from attribute, +10 from item.) It's fairly easy to get it much higher. What would be a good, reasonable skill?

B) At the high levels required for epic casting, it becomes easy for a character to cross the threshold into cheesy munchkinism. It gets tricky since whatever edges you can garnish seem to be the deciding factor at such high power levels. Obviously, it is a matter of opinion up to the individual DM, but is there a line we can commonly agree on that crosses efficency into the realm of cheese?

C) At what level should a player begin planning and developing their character for epic spellcasting? What would you consider and efficient build for epic spellcasting and why? Any class preferences in regards to epic spellcasting, or are they all essentially the same at that point?

A. I'd assume at least a +12 attribute mod, 13 if they have a racial bonus, 24 ranks, and the +10 item. Because really, they will have a +10 item. More, depending on how much craft wondrous item cheese you allow. Add in a synergy bonus with know(arcana) for an extra 2. And skill focus actually becomes useful now(though not as useful as epic feats), so a 52 is not unreasonable. Which of course means you can take 10 for a 62 DC.

B. At high levels, spellcasters explode into power. Metamagic reduction, multiple quickens per round, its quite obscene. Basic wizard builds become similar to incantrix power without even trying. I'm not even sure what cheese would be at that level.

C. You should be training the required skills from the get-go, and picking up the feat at 21 is not unreasonable. a DC 62 epic spell, as I said is doable in A, is quite powerful and well worth a feat. taking skill focus(spellcraft) before 20 is advisable, so its not in competition for epic feats. Epic skill focus(spellcraft) is also great for a epic spellcaster, a +10 is great. You would also want to start investing in bigger and better spellcraft items. You should be able to rise up to a 75 skill check in short order. Caster level is less important now, as you don't have spell progression. Take practiced spellcaster before epic, and you have 4 levels you can dip without any hinderance to your spellcasting power, whihc youcan use to boost spellcraft. For instance, examplar can give you a +4 spellcraft, and can give you magical aptitude as a bonus feat. This means you can meat an 82 DC by level 24.


Item familiars can also boost your check, but I'm not familiar with them.


Of course, at this point you have to consider whether you can afford the cost to develop the spell. a DC 82 spell costs 738,000 and 29,520 xp.


And don't negate mitigating factors when making epic spells. They can boost the power significantly.

[Alleran]

Of course, at this point you have to consider whether you can afford the cost to develop the spell. a DC 82 spell costs 738,000 and 29,520 xp.
Not if you mitigate the DC down to zero, it doesn't.

[graymachine]

Because really, they will have a +10 item. More, depending on how much craft wondrous item cheese you allow.

I agree that +10 is reasonable and would point out that the maximum skill boost an item can be enchanted with below epic level is +20, which is affordable to an 20th level character, and more so to someone enchanting it themselves at cost.

[Mystify]

Not if you mitigate the DC down to zero, it doesn't.
If you mitigate the DC down to 0, its a DC 0 spell. If you have -85 DC, then you could cast what is effectively a 170DC spell before mitigations.


I agree that +10 is reasonable and would point out that the maximum skill boost an item can be enchanted with below epic level is +20, which is affordable to an 20th level character, and more so to someone enchanting it themselves at cost.
I was positive +10 was the best pre-epic priced skill boost you could get. However, looking it up, it says +30 on the epic item list, so a 90k item for a +30 spellcraft is perfectly reasonable for such a character.

Increase all my estimates by 20.

[DoctorGlock]

Has item familiar been mentioned yet insofar as boosting spellcraft? I was hitting something like DC 105 spells around 21 last game I played in with a maxed out item and maxed skill investiture in the familiar and an int score of 36. add things like skill focus and exemplar it gets pretty ridiculous, to say nothing of sadism loops.

[grautry]

Add Moment of Prescience or Divine Insight(at that level, getting level 2 Cleric spells should be no problem whatsoever, even if you don't have a Cleric in the party) for an additional +5-25. Guidance of the Avatar(also Cleric 2) can give you a +20 competence bonus, but you should have a +30 item anyway.

There's also the possibility of creating custom items with exotic bonuses(sacred, luck, profane etc.) but that's more or less in the realm of DM's whim. Current item creation rules(for saves and AC only) give about double the price of the standard bonus but again - that's completely and totally at DM's whim.

You can also PAO into something in order to increase your base Intelligence score. Sarrukh(for the Int, not for Manipulate Form) gives you 30,+5 Inherent, +5 from levelling, +6 item, +3 aging gives you 49 Int(for a +19 modifier).

So that's:
24(Ranks, minimum for Epic Spellcasting)
+24(Item Familiar; untyped)
+19(Int)
+30(Item; Competence)
+25(Moment of Prescience; insight)
+2(Know Arc Synergy; untyped)
+3(Skill Focus; untyped)
+10(Epic Skill Focus; untyped)
+1(Luckstone; luck)
+10(Improvisation Bard 1 SpC; luck)
+10(Take 10)
=157

If you can get access to Invocations, there's Draconic Knowledge from Dragon Magic, which gives you untyped +6. Mythic Exemplar(CChampion) can grant another +5(sacred). So, potentially 168. There are also a few feats that give +2 bonuses, but I don't think they're worth the feat(but if you're really invested into it, you might be able to squeeze a few more points here).

EDIT2: With leadership, you could take a Marshal Cohort. Assuming he has 15+2(Race)+5(Level)+4(Inherent)+6(Item) = 32 Charisma, he can use his Motivate Intelligence aura for another +11, bringing the total up to 168-179.

Whether the above is cheesy or not truly depends on the game, Epic is where the usual guidelines go out of the window.

EDIT: Also, a piece of advice. In Epic play, a Mage of the Arcane Order is quite possibly the most potent wizardly PrC, since he can spontaneously draw Epic spells from the spellpool.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

EDIT: Also, a piece of advice. In Epic play, a Mage of the Arcane Order is quite possibly the most potent wizardly PrC, since he can spontaneously draw Epic spells from the spellpool.

No they can't, Spellpool access caps at 9th level spells.

Apparently I was wrong. My apologies.

[Hirax]

No they can't, Spellpool access caps at 9th level spells.

Check out page 190 of Complete Arcane ;)

[Kobold-Bard]

Check out page 190 of Complete Arcane ;)

http://static.tsrfiles.co.uk/images/smilies/unimpressed.gif

What an unbelievably stupid idea that was. I hope whoever wrote it feels very, very bad about it.

[Mystify]

http://static.tsrfiles.co.uk/images/smilies/unimpressed.gif

What an unbelievably stupid idea that was. I hope whoever wrote it feels very, very bad about it.

Sometimes they write something that is so blatantly overpowered that I can't comprehend how it ever reached print.

[Hirax]

Maybe they thought it was balanced by the fact that all the printed epic spells aren't that good?

[grautry]

http://static.tsrfiles.co.uk/images/smilies/unimpressed.gif

What an unbelievably stupid idea that was. I hope whoever wrote it feels very, very bad about it.

Well... It's still less overpowered than the usual "Get a legion of Solars, reduce DC to 0" approach, so that's something, I guess.

[tyckspoon]

In sequence:

1: You'll often see Spellcraft left lowish because it's really just not worth investing in. Unless you're an Incantatrix, ranks + stat bonus will be enough to handle any standard use of the skill (ie, the 'what spell is he casting' or 'what kind of magical effect is this Strange Energy Field' applications.) As regards Epic Spells, the question isn't how high a DC you can hit; it's how much mitigation you can apply while still having a spell you can reasonably cast. And that's because high-DC spells are absurdly expensive, even for Epic characters- it doesn't help you to be able to cast a DC 80 spell when actually developing that spell costs the entire WBL of a level 20 character and more than an entire level's worth of XP. It's rather difficult to come up with an epic spell worth that investment.

2: The absolute cheese line, specifically involving Epic Spellcasting, would be arbitrary-mitigation techniques to develop all your Epic Spells at 0 DC, making them cost nothing, cast as easily as your standard 1-9 slots, and take only 1 day to research. That's the point where your DM may as well just go "ok, they say it can't happen, but you've Won D&D. We're starting with new characters next session, anybody got a preference for level/genre/maybe try a different system?" Anything below that is potentially playable, and probably won't be terribly different than high-op pre-Epic.

3: Epic Spellcasting doesn't really need or benefit from a particular preparation in build; as long as you get the prereq skill ranks and have 9th level spells on or before level 20 you're good to use it.