What is Gestalt? [Question answered]

[Hbgplayer]

I have seen this term pop up on the PbP thread all the time, often in games that sound interesting, but I refrain from applying because I don't know what it means.
I've looked it up and, while I found it on Google, it didn't make any sense, and I can't find it in any of the 3.x books that I have.

[skycycle blues]

It's a playing variant from Unearthed Arcana.

It's basically leveling up in multiple classes simultaneously. You use the combined skill list of both classes, gain skill points, saves, BAB and hit die based on whichever of the two classes have higher values and you gain all the class features of both classes.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm

[FearlessGnome]

It is in Unearthed Arcana.

What it means is that you have two classes. A multiclass rogue2/fighter2 is a level 4 character. A gestalt fighter2//rogue2 is a level two character who takes the best from rogue and the best from fighter. You get all class features from both, the best saves, (So good fort save AND good Reflex save in this case), hp as a fighter, skill points as a rogue, etc.

It is more powerful than normal characters, but a rogue2//fighter2 is still weaker than a normal multiclass fighter2/rogue2, because they would be level 4.

Be gone, fiendish ninjas, be gone!

[Mr. Zolrane]

In a nutshell, gestalt is taking two classes at once. It is not the same this as multiclassing. The difference being that a gestalt character, instead of getting partial benefits from both/each of his chosen classes based on how many levels he has, he gains all class features of both classes, as well as the best of the two saves, BAB and health rolls.

Example:

Let's say we have Blasty McSwordman, multiclass Fighter/5-Wizard/5. Blasty's BAB would be 7, because he had 5 levels of best BAB as a Fighter and 5 levels of worst BAB as a Wizard. He gains the number of bonus feats appropriate for a Fighter of his level and can cast spells as a 5th level Wizard.

Alternatively we have Stabbums O'Caster, gestalt Fighter-Wizard, character level 10. Stabbums' BAB would be 10, because between his two classes, the better of the two BAB-wise, Fighter, grants best BAB. Likewise, Stabbums' has the full casting ability of a 10th level Wizard, and all requisite features for both classes. Additionally, Stabbums has good Fort and Will saves, but a bad Reflex save, because Fighters have good Fort saves, and Wizards have good Will saves, but neither have good Reflex saves.

Does that make sense?

EDIT: Double ninja'd!

[Hbgplayer]

Thanks; that makes me not want to play one of those games. Way too complicated. :smallyuk: And that would be why I couldn't find it. My uncle gave me a bunch of his D&D books, and while that is one of the books, I don't think I've opened it more than a couple of times.

[Kobold-Bard]

Thanks; that makes me not want to play one of those games. Way too complicated. :smallyuk: And that would be why I couldn't find it. My uncle gave me a bunch of his D&D books, and while that is one of the books, I don't think I've opened it more than a couple of times.

It's not that complicated. Your stats, Saves, skills, etc. are still done the same way, you just get to pick the better from the two classes. And it makes things like Gishes & Theurges (my favourite thing ever) much less heartbreaking to play.

[Mr. Zolrane]

My main issue with it is the fact that it's a fertile cheese farm the likes of which you've never seen.

[Tvtyrant]

My main issue with it is the fact that it's a fertile cheese farm the likes of which you've never seen.

But it also lets you play things that would be worthless in normal gameplay. A TWF Pixie/Bard//Warblade for instance.

[NikitaDarkstar]

You can read about it here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm it's really not more complicated than leveling one class, you just have both classes in front of you and pick the best parts from each class.

But I also agree that it's, well... I admit it's fun but balance? What balance? But it does allow for some interesting character concepts without tying yourself into a knot trying to optimize it. (Running a Fighter|Bard in one game right now... fun guy, beats people up with an +1 adamantine battle guitar.)

[Hbgplayer]

(Running a Fighter|Bard in one game right now... fun guy, beats people up with an +1 adamantine battle guitar.)

:biggrin: That made me laugh, which is kinda awkward, as I'm in the middle of the college library, "reading" a criminal law book....
Anyway, I can just imagine a dwarf swinging a bright, shiny, red six stringed battle axe yelling "Rock to this!"

[NikitaDarkstar]

:biggrin: That made me laugh, which is kinda awkward, as I'm in the middle of the college library, "reading" a criminal law book....
Anyway, I can just imagine a dwarf swinging a bright, shiny, red six stringed battle axe yelling "Rock to this!"

Lol well he's actually human... But he opted for a metal guitar after he broke a wooden one over a gnolls head.. who just laughed at him and thought he was so pathetic he actually needed some proper combat training. But yhea, he plays at you and if you get to close he whacks you in the head and then keeps playing.

Best part? DM decided to let Whirling Blade apply to his guitar... so he can hurl a magic instrument that does 1d10 dmg at people... And despite that it's still considered less lethal than said bard trying to use a bagpipe.

[Greenish]

My main issue with it is the fact that it's a fertile cheese farm the likes of which you've never seen.Eh. Cheese is relative, and gestalt is hardly worse than normal game.

[Socratov]

Eh. Cheese is relative, and gestalt is hardly worse than normal game.

Yes and no... yes in the sense that you can actually pull off tricks that would otherwise be absolutely overpowered and ridicilous (a lvl 20 PC with triple 9's? A martial master with absolutely all the maneuvers (and some bard as well to be a selfbuffing unstoppable master of doom). However, that is in non gestalt actually reachable too by using Pun-Pun/wishloops (yeah, lame argument, but that's how it works). On the other hand it provides certain characterconcepts with a foothold without sacrificing too much power or at the very least make it playable in the first place. it will also satisfy people's thirst for power while still keeping the game interested (remember, you don't get more HP or WBL, so all the characters become more like glass cannons). to expand on that, I have often seen DM's having their players lose 5 levels when reaching lvl 15 and instead making them lvl 10 gestalts to get further away from the whole "your wizard/druid/cleric has now become god" point, which some players liek very much.

It is like a sub gamingsystem. Instead of designing a whole new edition for high power players, you could just use these alternate rules and satisfy more players.

and remeber, cheese is not neccessarily bad. Quoting the Chairman in the Iron chef optimisation threads: "a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue." (goes for Roquefort as well :smallyuk: )

[hex0]

Way too complicated.

It can be. Imagine the bookeeping of playing a Artificer/Druid. Or Psion/Wizard.

Or it can be simple like a Fighter/Monk.