Wizard handbook problem

[kabreras]

I was reading at the wizard handbook and while at the builds exemples i noticed a problem :
Here ! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.msg8046#msg8046)

Just by the level 1 !

Levels:
1: Conjurer (1)(Cloudy Conjuraton, Improved Initiative, Cooperative Spell)
2: Conjurer (2)
3: Conjurer (3)(Sculpt Spell)
4: Conjurer (4)
5: Conjurer (5)

As i read it cooperative spell need an other metamagic but there isnt one.

Or i am misreading something ?

[FMArthur]

It is probably an error, but I guess if you took feats in this order: Other Metamagic Feat, Cooperative Spell, Sculpt Spell, you could later retrain that first feat (using PHII retraining rules) and the other two would remain functional codependently. That's kind of abusive though.

[kabreras]

Debatable with the wording :
"Also, the new choice can’t make any of your later choices illegal" of retraining.

[FMArthur]

Honestly it's about as dubious in sportsmanship as Dark Chaos Shuffle is, so if retraining doesn't work you might as well use that instead.

[Big Fau]

The author admitted later on that this was an error.

[Tr011]

I was reading at the wizard handbook and while at the builds exemples i noticed a problem :
Here ! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.msg8046#msg8046)

Just by the level 1 !

Levels:
1: Conjurer (1)(Cloudy Conjuraton, Improved Initiative, Cooperative Spell)
2: Conjurer (2)
3: Conjurer (3)(Sculpt Spell)
4: Conjurer (4)
5: Conjurer (5)

As i read it cooperative spell need an other metamagic but there isnt one.

Or i am misreading something ?

You take Cloudy Conjuration, Improved Initiative, any Metamagic Feat and Cooperative Spell then. Shouldn't be a problem because you got two flaws + Improved Initiative as a bonus feat instead of Scribe Scroll. You can get a fourth feat by beeing a human.

[FMArthur]

Why would you bother with Cooperative Spell, anyway? There are loads of better feats to be taking.

In fact, why does no wizard guide ever mention Invisible Spell and Uncanny Forethought? Because they're too useful? Craft Contingent Spell is much meaner to be using and they never miss that one.

[NNescio]

Why would you bother with Cooperative Spell, anyway? There are loads of better feats to be taking.

Mage of the Arcane Order's prereq.


In fact, why does no wizard guide ever mention Invisible Spell and Uncanny Forethought? Because they're too useful? Craft Contingent Spell is much meaner to be using and they never miss that one.

Well, Invisible Spell causes adjudication headaches with the DM (and the player, to a lesser extent), and Uncanny Forethought is from Exemplars of Evil, which means it's a feat specifically designed and intended for villains.

Craft Contingent Spell is still worse though, from a strictly game-balance perspective, 'though IMHO, it's a little more likely to fly under most DMs, since it's a bit more subtle and requires resources.

[Ernir]

I think Uncanny Forethought was just "obscure" until recently. I have only seen people talk about it here with some frequency for the last year or so.

[Hirax]

Mage of the Arcane Order's prereq.



Well, Invisible Spell causes adjudication headaches with the DM (and the player, to a lesser extent), and Uncanny Forethought is from Exemplars of Evil, which means it's a feat specifically designed and intended for villains.

Craft Contingent Spell is still worse though, from a strictly game-balance perspective, 'though IMHO, it's a little more likely to fly under most DMs, since it's a bit more subtle and requires resources.

The feats section of EoE says that you can allow PCs to take some of the feats. It doesn't say which ones, though. I'd say it's in the same realm as prestige classes. I agree that craft contingent spell has the most potential for abuse by far, though.

[FMArthur]

Well, Invisible Spell causes adjudication headaches with the DM (and the player, to a lesser extent),
Fair enough on that one, but it really doesn't need so much clarification as it does nerfing. Transformative effects are the only ones that are really all that confusing.


and Uncanny Forethought is from Exemplars of Evil, which means it's a feat specifically designed and intended for villains.
Yeah... in the same way that variant races and ACFs are optional at DM discretion, that prestige classes can be added to the game, that Precocious Apprentice, Collegiate Wizard and Hidden Talent are all special feats only to be used for special campaigns... People use all this stuff constantly and at least mention them in guides. The book just says you can give PCs access to its feats, which isn't any different from the way that these other options are mentioned by their books. EoE's material is in the same game legality zone as them.


Craft Contingent Spell is still worse though, from a strictly game-balance perspective, 'though IMHO, it's a little more likely to fly under most DMs, since it's a bit more subtle and requires resources.
There's nothing subtle about "no, he just dies instead and I appear in my mountain cottage unharmed." Craft Contingent Spell is disastrous to gameplay when put to use for any intent other than pure whimsy.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I was reading at the wizard handbook and while at the builds exemples i noticed a problem :
Here ! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.msg8046#msg8046)

Just by the level 1 !

Levels:
1: Conjurer (1)(Cloudy Conjuraton, Improved Initiative, Cooperative Spell)
2: Conjurer (2)
3: Conjurer (3)(Sculpt Spell)
4: Conjurer (4)
5: Conjurer (5)

As i read it cooperative spell need an other metamagic but there isnt one.

Or i am misreading something ?

Bolded is the needed metamagic feat, which he can take at 1st level by being a Conjurer.

[Lateral]

Bolded is the needed metamagic feat, which he can take at 1st level by being a Conjurer.

Cloudy Conjuration isn't a metamagic feat.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Cloudy Conjuration isn't a metamagic feat.

It isn't? Hmmm... *goes and checks* Hmm... so it isn't. I bet the designer made the same mistake I did.

[Endarire]

I caught this after the fact. TreantMonk never updated it.