Ninja or Rogue?

[blakmetalmedik]

Hey forum :) i am rolling a new character for a campaign where i have settled into the stealthy role. I've played many rogue/scoutish type characters in the past and I've always had my eye on the Assassin Prc but never actually picked it up. I've decided to change that. :)
However, now Im stumped on a base class, in general are rogues or ninjas better assassins? looking for something that can get through combat quick and dirty.

[Psyren]

In Pathfinder, they're about the same. Ninjas are a bit more combat-focused due to poison-use instead of trapfinding.

In 3.5... avoid Ninjas

[Greenish]

Rogues, by the virtue of Sneak Attack being easier to qualify for, and having a better skill list, are usually considered better than ninjas. They're also a core class, which translates into lots of support over the breadth and width of splatbooks.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd play Psychic Rogue or Factotum, myself.

In power level, it's about:

Psychic Rogue or Factotum
is stronger than
Rogue
is stronger than
Ninja

Also look at the relevant handbook for the class in question. I would also state that the Assassin Prestige Class does tend to suck. Psychic Assassin is okay for Psychic Rogue though.

[blakmetalmedik]

Thanks for the quick replies everyone, and ya, I've heard ninjas are kinda sub par, was curious about this specific case however.

Where can I find the psychic rogue/ assassin? EPH?

[Greenish]

I would also state that the Assassin Prestige Class does tend to suck.It's not terrible. Easy qualifications, bit of spellcasting (with SC support), keeps SA up, gives HiPS (late, but still)…

[Edit]: Psychic rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) and psychic assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d). There's also an unrelated psychic assassin in Secrets of Sarlona, if my memory serves.

[Keld Denar]

PsyRogue is in the Minds Eye web suppliment. I'm sure Greenish or someone will link it in a sec (or just Google Minds Eye Psychic Rogue). Psionic Assassin is a varient in Secrets of Sarlona. Both are decent, but that's mostly due to the robustness that is the psionic system. Also, poaching powers off other lists with Expanded Knowledge is both fun and powerful.

For even more fun with Psionic Assassin, look up Spoons McGee from a previous Iron Chef optimization challenge. If you find a man dead inside of a sealled room with a dozen and a half spoons perforating his corpse, you will know that Spoons McGee has collected his bounty.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)

Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) (the Gold here is the Mind Cripple which you can get at ECL 10)

And there is an adaptation for the Core Assassin in Secrets of Sarlona, which essentially trades it's spellcasting for psionic manifesting, now the Assasin Spell list got a lot of love in splatbooks (particularly the Spell Compendium) so don't be so quick to dismiss it.

Edit: Swordsage'd....

[blakmetalmedik]

Was afraid of that, current DM has restricted us to printed d&d books only. No dragons mag, 3rd party books, or web supps.

[Keld Denar]

Minds Eye is a published source. It's just published on the WotC website, rather than in a book. Secrets of Sarlona is still WotC printed material, so you could get that. Take Hidden Talent for Psionic Minor Creation at 1, 5 levels in normal Rogue, and you should have a decently good and fun playable Psionic Assassin.

[FMArthur]

Ninjas aren't too terrible if you were going for a ranged Sneak Attack build, since you can't flank with ranged weapons and Sudden Strike's only disadvantage is the lack of a flanking trigger. They usually have a pretty easy time of producing Dexterity-denial for their precision damage due to their class features, while the Rogue requires items and outside tricks to do so.

[ericgrau]

When I read the ninja class I was confused why people hate it so much. One of the biggest problems with rogue combat is the lack of a sneak attack trigger without a lot of work. Ninjas get one for free starting at level 2. It's barely enough for the major part of one combat at first, which is minimal but enough, then later you get more. It also has built in defense and since it denies dex it has a better chance of hitting. Or as pointed out it works at range, which means more full attacks. The rogue has to spend time setting up his flank and then he has to flee right away since he can't take hits. And during this brief time his first attack is a single attack, which makes any brief fighting duration even worse. It seems like a rogue would get a lot less actual hits without heavy high level optimization. Even then we're talking serious tricks to do it as well, not simple ones. For example if you said "Aha, greater invisibility" well that eats a turn from the mage and is still less than ideal. And that's one of the better simple ways. Or am I missing something?

[Unusual Muse]

The Rokugan ninja has full BAB and might be worth looking at if it's available to you.

[Bloodgruve]

I'm currently playing a Beguiler/Spellthief going into Daggerspell Mage/Unseen Seer. Its pretty fun so far and its not your old rogue/scout/ninja. It lacks Evasion which kinda sux but the spell progression is very nice to have so far.

GL
Blood~

[Gandariel]

To answer OP's question:
rogue is a better assassin than ninja, cause assassin focuses on Int, ninja on Wis

[hex0]

Given your book restrictions, I'd suggest Rogue 2/Factotum 3 for your entry. That way you'll have Evasion and Brains over Brawn. Both are very useful!

[Gavinfoxx]

Given your book restrictions, I'd suggest Rogue 2/Factotum 3 for your entry. That way you'll have Evasion and Brains over Brawn. Both are very useful!

Or he could just play a Factotum, get poison use with a feat, hide in plain sight from an item, have lots of supernatural powers (dip in mindbender and get mindsight!), and call himself an assassin?

[Urpriest]

Or he could just play a Factotum, get poison use with a feat, hide in plain sight from an item, have lots of supernatural powers (dip in mindbender and get mindsight!), and call himself an assassin?

Eh, Mind Cripple is awesome though. Ray of Idiocy only goes so far.

[Gavinfoxx]

Eh, Mind Cripple is awesome though. Ray of Idiocy only goes so far.

Yea, but DM wanted everything to be in wotc dead tree form...

[Hiro Protagonest]

Or he could just play a Factotum, get poison use with a feat, hide in plain sight from an item, have lots of supernatural powers (dip in mindbender and get mindsight!), and call himself an assassin?

Or play a swordsage.

Factotum and swordsage tend to be your best bets, but rogue is good enough to keep up. What do you want, more of a typical sneaky type that deals massive damage, or one good at combat and stealth with supernatural abilities to help?

[Urpriest]

Yea, but DM wanted everything to be in wotc dead tree form...

For some reason I thought that ability was on the Secrets of Sarlona verion. Oh, in that case, Largo Al Factotum!

[Rubik]

Largo Al Factotum!Wow.

That's just...

Wow.

[Dsurion]

The Rokugan ninja has full BAB and might be worth looking at if it's available to you.Are you referring to Ninja Spy, or something else?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Are you referring to Ninja Spy, or something else?

Rokugan D20 sourcebook. I think it was made by the Lo5R guys for d20 and given a WotC stamp of approval or something.

[Dsurion]

Rokugan D20 sourcebook. I think it was made by the Lo5R guys for d20 and given a WotC stamp of approval or something.That would be why I've never heard of it. Aside from sneaky guy with full BAB, what's the gist of it?

[Togath]

Rokugan ninja has full bab(as mentioned), d6 hd(so standard 3.5 sneaky guy hd), full sneak attack(normal sneak attack, not sudden strike), a scaling version of dodge as a class feature(which counts as dodge for feats) and increases initiative and speed(though the rokugan ninja stops gaining new abiltiies at level 12)

[hex0]

Rokugan ninja has full bab(as mentioned), d6 hd(so standard 3.5 sneaky guy hd), full sneak attack(normal sneak attack, not sudden strike), a scaling version of dodge as a class feature(which counts as dodge for feats) and increases initiative and speed(though the rokugan ninja stops gaining new abiltiies at level 12)

You can get it free online which is a plus.

I guess Factotum 3/Rokugan Ninja 1/Swordsage 1 would be an ok entry to Assassin.

No one mentioned a Monk 2 dip? All good saves, higher hit die, evasion, and three bonus feats?

Factotum 3/Monk 2 with Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius would be a great entry to Assassin as well. Int synergy!