dnd for the visually impaired.

[Draig]

So one of my players brought up a concept for the next campaign that they would want to try playing as a blind monk or ranger.

So brief question to the playground, what are feats that a PC could take to overcome the drawbacks of being blind making them an effective character? And what books are they found in?

[Slipperychicken]

Mindsight + Mindbender1 (Lords of Madness), if you can manage the prereqs, gives a 100ft radius of Mindsight.

Tome of Battle has a stance which grants Scent. You could get this from the Martial Stance feat.

When they're "in combat or speaking" (judging by the Invisibility table on SRD), it's astoundingly easy to pinpoint creatures using Listen. DC= 0 + [1 per 10ft]. Bear in mind you don't need to make checks to detect creatures that aren't trying to be sneaky.

Blinded, SRD
The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

To be sporting, I would say he overcame the miss chance through intense training, perfection of self, or something to that effect. Perhaps you could let him ignore the miss chance if he beats the Listen DC by 10 or more.

[TheRinni]

So one of my players brought up a concept for the next campaign that they would want to try playing as a blind monk or ranger.

So brief question to the playground, what are feats that a PC could take to overcome the drawbacks of being blind making them an effective character? And what books are they found in?

Well, there's always the Blind-Fight (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/blind-fight--224/) and Blindsight (http://dndtools.eu/feats/sword-and-fist-a-guidebook-to-monks-and-fighters--50/blindsight-5-foot-radius--228/)feats.

I just rolled up a TWF blind character, who just couldn't cut the +19 Wisdom prerequisite. Instead of wasting the feats, I grabbed a Blindfold of True Darkness from the MIC, and the Tremor Graft from Magic of Eberron.

[Circle of Life]

Not a feat, but the Blindfold of True Darkness grants blindsight 30' for a mere 9,000 gp. As it has no listed method of fueling it, the source is apparently 'magic', and so it works even in areas of silence, etc.

Edit: Ninja'd by a Bard. Awkward.

[ngilop]

The feat martial study (from Tome of Battle) as a prerquisite and then Martial stance(also from Tome of Battle) will give you Hearing the Air, gives you blindsense to 30' and a +5 to listen checks.

while the stance istelf is a 5th level stance. and considering your friend wants to play a Monk.. I personally see absolutely nothing wrong with giving him the Martial Stance feat for free at 6th level in place of the monk's regular bonus feat., or even in addition to.

while there is a another stance in ToB that gives sense.. the one that gives blindsense is really duplicating the whole 'blind monk' archetype from kung-fu movies and chinese legends.

[TheRinni]

To be sporting, I would say he overcame the miss chance through intense training, perfection of self, or something to that effect. Perhaps you could let him ignore the miss chance if he beats the Listen DC by 10 or more.

Just to throw this idea out there: My DM wouldn't allow me to erase penalties - despite being a level 11 character. He did allow me to make it a flaw (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Blind_(3.5e_Flaw)), though, and take two feats in exchange for it.

[ericgrau]

You can get a race or a blindfold of true darkness (MiC, IIRC) for blindsight and be extremely effective at it. Especially if you carry smoke sticks or another source of fog or similar concealment to turn the disadvantage onto your foe.

The more mundane (but weaker) way to do it instead of blind sight is a high listen modifier and the blind fight feat. Relevant rules for locating foes by sound are here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) (blindness and darkness work the same way). Usually it's a DC 20 listen to find the right square. Then you would probably use fog as well.

[Mystify]

hear hte undeen is a move action to use a DC 25 listen check to pinpoint all foes within 30' (or vs. their move silently with a +15 bonus to them)

Quick reconnitor allows you to make one spot andlisten check each round as a free action.

combine the two to pinpoint enemies as a free action.

both are in complrete adventurer


keen eared scout will give you more details about what you hear, and a bonus to pinpoint invisible creatures.

it is in PH2

With those feats, you are still blind, but you are reliant on your hearing to locate and identify foes. Getting blindsense or blindsight is more or less negating being blind, while this is embracing it.

Considering that a normal flaw is worth a feat, and blindness is far exceeding normal flaws, I would give them an two or three feats to take the sting out of needing all of these feats to function. Also, blindness says that people who are blind for long periods of time learn to adapt to their disability, so you should lessen the blind penalties for them.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The kid wants to be a blind martial artist?

Unarmed swordsage. Take Hearing the Air, Hunter's Sense if starting below 9th level.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3090.0

[Brock Samson]

And don't screw him until you get to the BBEG who casts Silence and then it's a terrifying game of cat-and-mouse!

[Mystify]

And don't screw him until you get to the BBEG who casts Silence and then it's a terrifying game of cat-and-mouse!
Speaking of which, anti-silence magic items are highly recommended. There are some bard spells suitable for the purpose. They may not keep them from being surrounded by silence and unable to hear anything more than 10ft away, but they don't have to stand there helpless as guys beat up on them because there is a low level spell in play.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Speaking of which, anti-silence magic items are highly recommended. There are some bard spells suitable for the purpose. They may not keep them from being surrounded by silence and unable to hear anything more than 10ft away, but they don't have to stand there helpless as guys beat up on them because there is a low level spell in play.

Or you can just use IHS to hear in a Silence. :smallcool:

[Mystify]

Or you can just use IHS to hear in a Silence. :smallcool:

Silence doesn't work like that. Its an area. If you attach it to a person, they get a will save against it, and IHS could remove the spell from you. But being in a silence field is not an effect on you. It is an effect on the soundwaves around you. Its not deafening everyone in its area, its blocking sound.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Silence doesn't work like that. Its an area. If you attach it to a person, they get a will save against it, and IHS could remove the spell from you. But being in a silence field is not an effect on you. It is an effect on the soundwaves around you. Its not deafening everyone in its area, its blocking sound.

IHS doesn't explicitly only work against things that allow a saving throw. This use of it isn't broken, unlike destroying the Sun, gaining gills/lungs, gaining spellcasting as a full caster of your level...

[Mystify]

IHS doesn't explicitly only work against things that allow a saving throw. This use of it isn't broken, unlike destroying the Sun, gaining gills/lungs, gaining spellcasting as a full caster of your level...

But its not an spell or effect on you. Its an effect on the area you are in. It doesn't makea lick of sense. There is no sound in the area around you, so you surge, and you can hear the sound that is not there?

[georgie_leech]

IHS doesn't explicitly only work against things that allow a saving throw. This use of it isn't broken, unlike destroying the Sun, gaining gills/lungs, gaining spellcasting as a full caster of your level...

The point is that doing so would allow you to make sound in the area of silence. The problem isn't that you can't hear, it's that there's no sound to be heard in the first place.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[TroubleBrewing]

The sound is still there, it's just being dampened by the surrounding magic.

You just IHS the magic away!

[Mystify]

The sound is still there, it's just being dampened by the surrounding magic.

You just IHS the magic away!

Its not surpressed, its blocked. And even in that case, its still not an effect on you, so IHS doesn't do anything to it.

[TroubleBrewing]

I don't know why it's that big of a deal. He's playing a blind character, and one of his first ideas was to go with Monk, for Pelor's sake. Let him IHS a Silence away.

[Mystify]

I don't know why it's that big of a deal. He's playing a blind character, and one of his first ideas was to go with Monk, for Pelor's sake. Let him IHS a Silence away.
I made a blind monk once. It was one of the most powerful characters in the party. A relatively cheap item that blocks silence in a 10ft area around you works perfectly fine. IHS is not nessecary to negate silence. Its not like enemies should be throwing silence at him on a regular basis.

[TroubleBrewing]

Wait, you're okay with him having an item that makes him permanently immune to Silence, but if he tries to temporarily disable the effect, that's a big deal?

[Mystify]

Wait, you're okay with him having an item that makes him permanently immune to Silence, but if he tries to temporarily disable the effect, that's a big deal?
Its the precedent. IHS doesn't work like that. It is well within the rules to take a bard spell that negates silence in an area and put it in an item. The rules even make it clear precisely how much it costs. IHS does not work like you are presenting it, and using it as such sets a dangerous precedent. I'm fine with fighters have nice things, but you are trying to allow something that makes no sense.

[ngilop]

TO get back on track on what to do with a blind monk and makinghim not less that useful and awya form the argument of what IHS ( or Iron Heart surge) can or cannot do ( wich thanks to the utter lack of explaining what it can do) can literally be just about anything ever. I re-present my original post, hoping the OP reads it and enjoys.



The feat martial study (from Tome of Battle) as a prerquisite and then Martial stance(also from Tome of Battle) will give you Hearing the Air, gives you blindsense to 30' and a +5 to listen checks.

while the stance istelf is a 5th level stance. and considering your friend wants to play a Monk.. I personally see absolutely nothing wrong with giving him the Martial Stance feat for free at 6th level in place of the monk's regular bonus feat., or even in addition to.

while there is a another stance in ToB that gives sense.. the one that gives blindsense is really duplicating the whole 'blind monk' archetype from kung-fu movies and chinese legends.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I re-present my original post, hoping the OP reads it and enjoys.

You do realize a non-initiator couldn't take Martial Stance (Hearing the Air) until 18th level, right?

[ngilop]

You do realize that i also suggested to the OP to give him Hearing the Air at 6th level as a bonus feat in place of the regular 6th level monk bonus feat, right?

besides rules in D&D were made to be bent to allow each and everyplayer to have a fun and non useless character, no matter the classes. WHile I will say that I am 100% againsts martial classes not having an 'initiator' level equal to their own level or even their BAB, and feel that is the biggest reason why ToB is not the book it could have been, but I digress and that should be a thread unto itself.

[Draig]

For the most part all of these posts were intuitive and helpful and I thank the playground for them. A second question I have is would this monk also be effective with ranged attacks, say a longbow w/ the Zen archery feat? And how would being blind hinder his ranged ability and are there feats to help with that as well?

[ericgrau]

Depends. Even if you find an opponent's square with listen/blindsense/tremorsense you still have a 50% miss chance. Blind fight only reduces this in melee. If you have some form of blind sight it works without any miss chance but blind sight often has a range limit.

[Mystify]

For the most part all of these posts were intuitive and helpful and I thank the playground for them. A second question I have is would this monk also be effective with ranged attacks, say a longbow w/ the Zen archery feat? And how would being blind hinder his ranged ability and are there feats to help with that as well?

Well, you would have to pinpoint their location first, which is hard at range. But assuming you can do that...
it can actually be better.
Namely, the woodland archer feat, from RotW.
one of its effects isif you miss due to miss chance for concealment with a ranged attack(aka. because you are shooting blindly), you ignore the miss chance against that foe the following round. You also get a +4 to attacks in a round after you miss, which is great.

[Rubik]

Well, you would have to pinpoint their location first, which is hard at range. But assuming you can do that...
it can actually be better.
Namely, the woodland archer feat, from RotW.
one of its effects isif you miss due to miss chance for concealment with a ranged attack(aka. because you are shooting blindly), you ignore the miss chance against that foe the following round. You also get a +4 to attacks in a round after you miss, which is great.Note that there's a +1 ranged enhancement that allows you to completely ignore the blindness-based miss-chance.

The trick is actually pinpointing your enemies and not hitting your allies.

[playswithfire]

It's somewhat impractical, but I kind of like the idea of getting a dog animal companion (probably via Wild Cohort) and a way to cast Chain of Eyes on it and have a seeing eye dog.

[Mystify]

Note that there's a +1 ranged enhancement that allows you to completely ignore the blindness-based miss-chance.

The trick is actually pinpointing your enemies and not hitting your allies.

*facepalms* duh, I should have remembered that.

[Telonius]

Might be kind of late on this one, but ...

If the player wants to play a blind character...

And we've just spent the past couple of pages figuring out how to make this not make any difference mechanically...

... Instead of taking random martial stances, obscure feats, and other random stuff, why not just say "Play a monk with the normal mechanics; for combat purposes you can intuit where everything is; but it's impossible for him to attempt a Spot check in any other circumstance and you have to RP him like he's actually blind in social situations." Otherwise, you've spent loads of resources just to make something almost as effective as a Monk.

[Mystify]

Might be kind of late on this one, but ...

If the player wants to play a blind character...

And we've just spent the past couple of pages figuring out how to make this not make any difference mechanically...

... Instead of taking random martial stances, obscure feats, and other random stuff, why not just say "Play a monk with the normal mechanics; for combat purposes you can intuit where everything is; but it's impossible for him to attempt a Spot check in any other circumstance and you have to RP him like he's actually blind in social situations." Otherwise, you've spent loads of resources just to make something almost as effective as a Monk.

I can't speak for the person who wants to play a blind monk, but that would defeat the purpose for me. The point would be to take a debilitating status, and then overcome it. I would even try to turn it into an advantage, say by having them specialized in taking down creatures with gaze attacks.

[NNescio]

Might be kind of late on this one, but ...

If the player wants to play a blind character...

And we've just spent the past couple of pages figuring out how to make this not make any difference mechanically...

... Instead of taking random martial stances, obscure feats, and other random stuff, why not just say "Play a monk with the normal mechanics; for combat purposes you can intuit where everything is; but it's impossible for him to attempt a Spot check in any other circumstance and you have to RP him like he's actually blind in social situations." Otherwise, you've spent loads of resources just to make something almost as effective as a Monk.

...and he would be unaffected by visual illusions, invisible opponents, blinding effects, gaze attacks, et cetera, yes?

I mean, sure, you can choose not to do that and avoid handing out mechanical advantages for free, but having the blind monk being affected by Glitterdust or a Medusa's Gaze just sort of... breaks verisimilitude.

[Draig]

The blind monk's immunity to gaze attacks, illusions, etc. Is the reason why I asked about feats for the monk. The player understands he would be gaining an immense advantage to those creatures and as such is willing to use feats and such to overcome his disability, both in an RP environment and as a player.

[Circle of Life]

This may have already been brought up, but the monk could take Hidden Talent (Synesthete), for 20 mins/day of "feeling" light, allowing him to see through his skin or whatever.

Alternately, you could allow him to create a custom psionic item of continuous Synesthete that allows him to "hear" light, using the custom psionic item creation rules. It's not terribly expensive, but it depends on the level of the game.

[Gavinfoxx]

So he goes Tashalatora Monk 2 / Ardent 17 / Psionic Mindbender 1.

In addition to Tashalatora, he makes sure to have the 'Touchsight' power and the 'Synesthete' power (I believe Ardent gets either or both of those, don't they? If not, he takes it with Extra Power or research it or whatever). He would also research the power or use the Extra Power feat for a telepathy power if he wants to go for a mindbender dip and get Mindsight. OR he could just be a Tashalatora Monk 2 / Telepath 18, and take the Telepathic Communication ACF, and get Mindsight that way. He would also wear a Blindfold of True Darkness. He could also get the Psicrystal Affinity feat and have his psicrystal lead him around.

Some of his feats might include:

Martial Study
Martial Stance - Hunter's Sense
Shape Soulmeld - Landshark Boots
Mindsight
Trandsimensional Power (for Transdimensional Touchsight)