Toughness of a fighter + interactivity of a rogue?

[Kirti]

I've recently started playing table-top RPGs (4e, Pathfinder, some World of Darkness) and I seem to run into this conundrum regardless of the system:

I love the interactivity (lots of fun skills) of a rogue in social situations, but have a really tough time finding a 'role' in the group for combat. The groups I play with have a real 'let's get to the fighting already' style when they get a whiff of conflict brewing. So, sneaking around or trying to be 'clever' in combat usually feels like I'm going against the grain.

I really enjoy tough 'defender-y' (to use 4e terms) characters when it comes to combat. I don't care if i wave a pillow around at enemies, but i like being the guy who is the first to charge in and take a beating to protect my fellow comrades. Based on this, I would pick Fighter - but their out of combat skills seem geared toward climbing, swimming, and athletics in general; It just feels like they're pigeon-holed into being jocks.

So, some questions to the you fellow gamers:


Is there any class that gives me lots of interactive skills out of combat (stealth, thievery, diplomacy, insight, etc.), but gives me a party protector or hard to bring down feeling in combat (damage is irrelevant)? A friend suggested Duelist from 3.5. I'm looking for options in Pathfinder.

Are there and play style changes that I can make as a rogue in a group of friends who have a very 'action-hero' approach to combat?


Any help would be greatly appreciated on both fronts.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

In D&D 3.5, there is this:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug

[TroubleBrewing]

1: Warblade, Incarnate, Crusader, or any of the various gish builds out there will give you out-of-combat utility on top of being hard to kill. Any melee class Tier 3 and up, really. Wildshape Ranger works for this, too.

As for Pathfinder options, I'm not familiar enough with the system to make recommendations.

2: D&D tends to be very combat-heavy. It can certainly be other things as well, but most of the rules are rules for how to hit that guy with a stick/fireball/sword/claw/tentacle/rulebook/etc.

If you're looking for a different playstyle, perhaps a game change is in order? The Green Ronin-published Game of Thrones RPG is suuuuper interaction heavy, it's still a fantasy RPG, and it uses the Burning Wheel system, which most people I know prefer to d20.

[Psyren]

Binder, Incarnate, and Swordsage can do this I believe.

[Keld Denar]

The 3.5 book Tome of Battle gives the game a bit more action hero-y type feel for brutes and scoundrels alike. It's like, 90% comparable ruleswise with pathfinder right out of the box as well, and right there square in the middle of the balance curve.

Otherwise, old 3.5 had some stuff in Unearthed Arcana (most of which is in the SRD) such as thug fighter, which basically gives the standard fighter more skill points from a better list for a marginal cost. Something like that could also be imported into pathfinder with minimal investment.

[Mystify]

build the rouge for defense. Give them a sheild, crank the dex up, spend money on AC and health boosts, make sure to have a high con. A high dex is one of the easier ways to get really good ACs. Manuever to flanking to get your damage output. It won't hurt as much as a TWF rouge, but you can make them stand up and take a beating.
You could also dip into fighter for a level or two to get a bit more hp, some combat feats, and more importantly proficiencies. Namely, shield proficiencies.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why not just optimize your rogue for more combat badassness? Have some straightforward tactics that work well for you?You seem to think that just because you have skills or the 'rogue' class, you can't optimize to be more awesome in a straight up melee fight.

Here is the Rogue handbook:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233

Here is the Poison Handbook:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0

And here is a handbook for the class that many consider the Rogue 2.0, the Factotum:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0

Also here is another option for Rogue 2.0, the Psychic Rogue:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

Here is another class that does the subtle rogue/ninja thing well, the Swordsage:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2030

Here is the handbook for tome of battle in general. Note that many of the powers have out of combat uses as well:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181705

If you like subtle and skillful classes, consider optimizing a Ranger extensively so as they do not look like a normal Ranger when you are done. They are one of the classes with perhaps the highest number of useful alternative class features, and can do most of the rogue stuff if you choose the right options. Here are some handbooks on that:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1543.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4621
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103

There is nothing wrong with liking skillful classes. Remember, no matter how focused in skills you are, you can still make the choices to be a viable member of the team in combat. You can even be very good in straight up fights with an Expert (the DMG class for NPC's) if you know what you are doing!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Wait, if this is a problem with all the systems, why the heck did you put it in the 3.5 section?

4e has the multiclass rogue feat. Take that as a fighter.

3.5 has Tome of Battle. And factotum.

Pathfinder has Tactician.

[Prime32]

You can build a rogue that's not sneaky. There are a few ways to automatically flank with someone as long as you threaten the same target - get a mount from the Wild Cohort feat and go to town.

Duelist isn't a base class, it's a prestige class (and not a very good one).

And the problem with being a defender is that no one is going to attack a hard-to-kill guy wielding a pillow when they could attack an easy-to-kill guy flinging instant death spells. The best "defender" class in 3.5 is crusader* (can heal his allies and penalise enemies for attacking them), followed by knight (has WoW-like "draw aggro" abilities).

Consider swordsage* for a class with a rogue-like chassis and support for direct fighting styles.

*Warning: Tome of Battle is considered by many to be the best-balanced 3.5e book ever printed, since its classes will always be around the same level of power regardless of the player's skill level. However, this also means that they can overshadow members of other classes in an inexperienced group.

[Kirti]

Wow! This is actually my first post on this forum and I have to say I'm shocked with how quickly people responded - and with quality answers!

I've got a lot of good content to follow up on. I've tried a couple different rogue builds and I think it's trying to find a class with not only the mechanical feel that I'm looking for - but also the 'flavor' - if that makes sense.

I've had this problem in a couple systems (4e being one of them), pathfinder is the main system that I play. I figured 3.5 has a lot of cool flavorful options that can be 'loaded' into pathfinder.

Not being familiar with 3.5, I was looking for inspiration to step in and dig around. Thanks for the help, everyone.

[Slipperychicken]

Factotum has the best skills in the game (6+INT, and extreme Int focus, and all skills. Yes, even that one.), a d8, and its healing power can help the tank role. I'd imagine you might use a crusader dip late in the build to pick up healing maneuvers/stances and be even more tanky.


EDIT: Along the line of tanking, a Wrathful Healing (+3, Enemies and Allies pg. 20) weapon heals you half the damage you deal, making you that much harder to kill.

[Rubik]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm). Yes, it's a castery-type, but it can be built for melee VERY well, especially at higher levels. Psychic warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) can be more utilitarian as well, though mostly with out-of-the-box thinking (just look at the Psicrystal Affinity feat and the psicrystal it gives you; there's an insane amount of utility with that thing, if you're willing to use your creativity).

Have you considered an incarnate/totemist build? Both classes are in Magic of Incarnum; they synergize fairly well, and the first is utility incarnate (heh), while the second is a melee beast (double-heh).

I also second factotum and ToB. Heck, just go to the tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293) thread and check out all the T3 classes.

[jaybird]

If it's the combination of fighting and skills you're after, might I suggest the Pathfinder Magus? Int-based "gish in a can" class.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd suggest all the Tier 3 and 'possibly Tier 3' classes for you, if you want to have access of things to do both inside and outside of combat with your mechanical abilities, and don't just want to limit yourself to skills:

Bard (Player's Handbook)
Beguiler (Player's Handbook II)
Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror)
Binder (Tome of Magic, WITHOUT the Online Vestiges)
Shadowcaster (Tome of Magic)

Druid, with most of these nerfs:
Shapeshift Variant (Player's Handbook II)
Deadly Hunter Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Druidic Avenger Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Divine Caster Variant (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Spontaneous Affliction (Exemplars of Evil)
Spontaneous Rejuvenation (Player's Handbook II)

Shaman (Oriental Adventures, possible Tier 2 due to spell access)
Shugenja (Complete Divine)
Crusader (Tome of Battle)
Swordsage (Tome of Battle)
Warblade (Tome of Battle)
Factotum (Dungeonscape)
Duskblade (Player's Handbook II)
Totemist (Magic of Incarnum)
Incarnate (Magic of Incarnum)
Psychic Warrior (Expanded Psionics Handbook, SRD)
Psychic Rogue (Online, see: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b and http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723c )
Wilder (Expanded Psionics Handbook, SRD)
Ardent (Complete Psionic)
Wildshape variant Ranger (Unearthed Arcana, SRD)
Nightstalker (Dragonlance: Races of Ansalon, a Dragonlance book, possible Tier 4)

And the ~Tier 3 Pathfinder classes:

Summoner (Pathfinder)
Alchemist (Pathfinder)
Inquisitor (pathfinder)
Magus (Pathfinder)

[deuxhero]

Wildshape Ranger with Trapfinding ACF