Tips for a 3.5 Ray Caster

[Zilter]

I've been thinking about building a caster focused on beaming badies to helplessness with a variety of ray spells.

Here's my current attempt, in the form of a Google docs spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Am5y6kvBTcMDdFkwVGNDbjYtRkJBd3Q4RXpQUW1JV FE#gid=0).

I'm still doing research on what spells to use, but ray of stupidity, ray of enfeeblement, enervation and such comes to mind. With Reach Spell and Spellwarp, the possibilities are almost endless.

Rogue 1/Sorcerer 6/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Unseen Seer X

Happy to take comments and tips!

EDIT: Took Battle Sorcerer out of the mix, regular sorcerer now.
EDIT2: Switched Spellthief for Rogue.
EDIT3: Regular sorcerer instead of metamagic specialist. Rapid Metamagic as 9th level feat.

[Mystify]

Is battle sorcerer worth it?
6 levels of battle sorcerer means you only net a +1 BaB, light armour(which is mediocre at best), a pointless weapon proficiency, and does permement, ruthless damage to your spells per day and spell known progression. The spell known progression alone delays your spells by an extra level, and you already have a level of spelltheif in there, which would but you significantly behind on effective spell levels.

[Manateee]

There's no reason to use Battle Sorcerer here and there are a lot of reasons not to.

Unless you houserule Master Spellthief to allow the build to retain/recast stolen spells, I'd recommend skipping Spellthief altogether. If you're hitting something with a ray, it should be incapacitated even if it doesn't lose a spell slot. And if you're attacking a level-appropriate target, the spell theft probably won't even touch their highest level slots. A Rogue level would get more skill points, a better skill list, more proficiencies and better ACF options. Since you're taking Practiced Spellcaster anyway, it will also free a feat slot.
EDIT: Just noticed you aren't taking Master Spellthief. Rogue definitely wins then.

If you're starting at low levels, you might want to take Precise Shot in the Reach Spell slot and retrain to RS at the level where you get PS from Spellwarp Sniper.

You might want to consider Ocular Spell instead of Reach Spell. It's not necessarily better, but it has a few advantages: As a full round action, you can release two Ocular spells, compared to spending that full-round action casting one Reach spell; you can turn spells other than touch spells and Reflex-targeting spells into rays; you get a better range on the attacks (though you'll still probably want to make them at 30 feat for sneak attack); they also let your familiar double-up your raycasting.

Watch out for spells like Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Clumsiness They're cool, but they don't do damage, so they don't apply for sneak attack. And they don't stack with multiple applications. You might want something like Empower Spell to really milk them.

Metamagic Specialist is good at low levels, but once you hit level 9, you should seriously consider retraining it for a familiar and picking up Rapid Metamagic as a feat. Familiars are amazing for this sort of build: They share spells like Hunter's Eye (CL/3 sneak attack!), Ocular Spells (extra spells, extra actions!), and Cloud of Knives (extra free action sneak attacks!); Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability means that no matter how hard you abuse the action economy by just being a Sorcerer, you can still abuse it even harder; they also get your skill points, which at worst means +2 to all your skill checks from aid another and at best means your party basically gets a second skillmonkey (including UMD, if you have a compatible familiar like a monkey or air elemental).

[Zilter]

Battle sorcerer doesn't slow down my spell progression, does it? Where I'm reading it from, it only gives you fewer spells, but not slower. Also, it has d8 hd, and it fit very well with my idea of a character back story. I though more bab, hp and wielding a cool weapon was worth some spells. But you may be right, it's not optimal and may be thrown out.

I would also get into Spellwarp Sniper one level earlier if I use Wizard instead of Sorcerer, but spontanous casting is so much easier to play, especially with metamagics!

[Mystify]

Battle sorcerer doesn't slow down my spell progression, does it? Where I'm reading it from, it only gives you fewer spells, but not slower. Also, it has d8 hd, and it fit very well with my idea of a character back story. I though more bab, hp and wielding a cool weapon was worth some spells. But you may be right, it's not optimal and may be thrown out.

I would also get into Spellwarp Sniper one level earlier if I use Wizard instead of Sorcerer, but spontanous casting is so much easier to play, especially with metamagics!
You lose a spell of each level, and you lose a spell known of every level. Battle sorcerer is quite poor.

sorcerer isn't really a bad choice for a build like this.

[Manateee]

Battle sorcerer doesn't slow down my spell progression, does it? Where I'm reading it from, it only gives you fewer spells, but not slower.
Lots of people hate Battle Sorcerer, anywhere it's used. I'm just going to say now that I'm not one of them. I like Battle Sorcerer. There are places where it's not such a bad call. This isn't one of them.

In this case, Battle Sorcerer exchanges a third of your spells known for 12 hit points. I'm having a hard time thinking of how that could be spun into an appealing exchange.

[Zilter]

I only took Spellthief to get into Spellwarp Sniper faster. Rogue has more skills, but it has to cross-class to get the concentration and spellcraft required to enter the sniper, delaying it by two levels. As far as I know, spellthief is the only base class with Sneak Attack AND both concentration and spellcraft.

I didn't know the familiar could be used for so much fun! :P
I saw it as pretty much a dead resource, and casting as standard actions seemed like a good trade.

But you are right though, Battle Sorceror isn't needed at all, and is going out.

[Zilter]

Thing about trading the familiar for faster spells is that my play group has 6 regular players, sometimes more. Managing and using a familiar might just take too much time! We're almost always on top with the combat economy.

[Draz74]

When building a Sorcerer / Spellwarp Sniper, note that your favorite spell is Wings of Flurry.

Xd6 + force damage (no cap), plus Sneak Attack, plus no-Save Daze for one round. All out of a 4th-level spell.

[Snowbluff]

HEY! Why are you MM specialist if you have a feat free for the Rapid MM feat? Also, get Quicken Spell. No questions.

Also, why do we have spellthief levels?

[Zilter]

When building a Sorcerer / Spellwarp Sniper, note that your favorite spell is Wings of Flurry.

Xd6 + force damage (no cap), plus Sneak Attack, plus no-Save Daze for one round. All out of a 4th-level spell.

Thanks, this will be utilized. ;)



Also, why do we have spellthief levels?

Because I couldn't come up with any other way to get both sneak attack and concentration and spellcraft as class skills, thus qualifying for spellwarp sniper a couple of levels earlier.

[Manateee]

Because I couldn't come up with any other way to get both sneak attack and concentration and spellcraft as class skills, thus qualifying for spellwarp sniper a couple of levels earlier.
If you have the Int to use Metamagic specialist, you should be able to catch up after a Sorcerer level or two. Even burning 4 ranks on crossclass concentration, Rogue will come out 6 skill points ahead.

[Zilter]

If you have the Int to use Metamagic specialist, you should be able to catch up after a Sorcerer level or two. Even burning 4 ranks on crossclass concentration, Rogue will come out 6 skill points ahead.

Well yes, of course. Some minor brain blockage going on here. You CAN take more than one rank per skill in another class. Then there's no reason not to go rogue.

[gorfnab]

Read this handbook: Sneak Attacking Spellcasters (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240.0)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It looks like you're going Human, so maybe get Able Learner (RoD) and move Reach Spell to a later level.

I actually don't see how Reach Spell is even going to help you, to use Spellwarp the spell has to have a range greater than touch and affect an area. If a spell has Range: Touch, Target: Creature(s) Touched, it can't be Spellwarped even if you use Reach Spell. I don't think any spells exist which are Range: Touch, Effect: (area).

[Mystify]

It looks like you're going Human, so maybe get Able Learner (RoD) and move Reach Spell to a later level.

I actually don't see how Reach Spell is even going to help you, to use Spellwarp the spell has to have a range greater than touch and affect an area. If a spell has Range: Touch, Target: Creature(s) Touched, it can't be Spellwarped even if you use Reach Spell. I don't think any spells exist which are Range: Touch, Effect: (area).

Reach spell turns touch spells into rays.
Spellwarp turns area effects into rays.
You don't need to use both on the same spell, but between them most spells can be rays.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Reach spell turns touch spells into rays.
Spellwarp turns area effects into rays.
You don't need to use both on the same spell, but between them most spells can be rays.

Here I was thinking it worked like the Archmage's Arcane Reach, but reading over it I guess it does turn the spell into a faux ray.

[Mystify]

I want to know who decided split ray is only a +2 level metamagic.
It is basically doubling the power of the spell. Empower is a +50% at a +2, Maximize is a similar increase at a +3, repeat doubles it, with a round delay, at a +3, and twin, which fully and honestly doubles it, is a +4. Not only does split ray double it, it lets you target different things, making it flat out better than a +4. Limiting it to rays does make it less potent of a feat, but that doesn't matter once its in use. Sure, its less effective for something like scorching ray which gets multiple rays... but most rays are only a single ray.
Esp. with easy metamagic, it becomes a doubling in power for a +1. That is the real power boost a raycaster gets . I don't think reach spell is generally worth it for a raycaster. There are plenty of rays in the system to start. I tried making a raycaster sorcerer once. I had that feat in mind, but I filled up the spells known with so many rays that I didn't have time to take normal touch spells to reach. spellwarp is useful, since you can use it without changing the spell level, and it can drop the reflex save off of spells.
spellwarp is also oddly in favor of sorcerers. It says you must decide to warp a spell to cast it, and you can apply metamagic as normal, as long as they effect rays.

So a wizard wants to cast a fireball ray. He prepares a fireball spell. It is a normal fireball spell, and hence he can't split ray it.

A sorcerer knows fireball. He casts it, spellwarps it into a ray, and then applies the split ray spontaneously.

[Eloel]

You have to have a good dispel check. No excuses. Ray Deflection will shut 90% of your tricks down, you can't let that happen.

Side question: Can you counterspell dispel? Does it work like Dispel countering or normal countering?

[Mystify]

You have to have a good dispel check. No excuses. Ray Deflection will shut 90% of your tricks down, you can't let that happen.

Side question: Can you counterspell dispel? Does it work like Dispel countering or normal countering?

Oh yes, knocking ray deflection off your opponents is definitely something you need to be able to do.

counterspelling dispel magic with dispel magic would be normal countering. Its better, since it lacks the chance of failure. Instead of casting dispel on their spell, you simply perform a normal counterpsell. Mismatching greater and normal dispel in the attempt would function as a dispel counter.

[Zilter]

My DM doesn't tailor our adventures to spesificly beat each our strengths, so meeting Ray Deflection is highly unlikely, at least more than once or twice. Although, dispel magic is nice anyway, so I'll probably take that.

Can someone explain to me why Rapid Metamagic is fantastic? To me it looks like Metamagic Specialist is better.

[Draz74]

Can someone explain to me why Rapid Metamagic is fantastic? To me it looks like Metamagic Specialist is better.

I think it's just because it doesn't have a daily limit. That, and familiars are actually really good if you know what you're doing with them. (More so for Wizards, though.)

But yeah, Metamagic Specialist is available sooner, doesn't cost a feat, and (best of all) doesn't have negative synergy with Arcane Spellsurge. (Arcane Spellsurge and Rapid Metamagic don't go together well because Rapid Metamagic doesn't let you apply metamagic to your spells just to "increase" their casting time from swift action to standard action.)

[Zilter]

I think it's just because it doesn't have a daily limit. That, and familiars are actually really good if you know what you're doing with them. (More so for Wizards, though.)

But yeah, Metamagic Specialist is available sooner, doesn't cost a feat, and (best of all) doesn't have negative synergy with Arcane Spellsurge.

I must be reading metamagic specialist wrong. Here's what is say's in PH2:


Benefit: You can apply metamagic feats that you know to sorcerer spells without increasing the casting time. This benefit even lets you quicken your sorcerer spells with the Quicken Spell feat. You can use this class feature a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Int modifier (minimum 1). This is an extraordinary ability.

The way I read it, it says I can always apply metamagics without increasing casting time. In addition I can Quicken 3 + int spells per day for free.

Now that I think about it though, that seems awfully powerful.

[Zilter]

Yea, so that's definitely not right.

Metamagic specialist out, familiar and Rapid Metamagic in.

[Zilter]

So, next question. Is there any game mechanical difference to casting a spell with the [Ray] descriptor and other spells that require ranged touch attacks?

And isn't Residual Magic from Complete Mage a fantastic feat for this build?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It has to be Effect: Ray. Spells like Produce Flame, Orb of [Energy], etc. don't work with Split Ray or anything else that specifically only works with rays.

Yes on Residual Magic.

[Ernir]

And isn't Residual Magic from Complete Mage a fantastic feat for this build?
It is a good feat choice on most metamagic builds, I'd say.

I want to know who decided split ray is only a +2 level metamagic.
The one that decided rarity can be a substituted for balance, I'd guess. :smallsigh:

[Manateee]

I must be reading metamagic specialist wrong. Here's what is say's in PH2:

Benefit: You can apply metamagic feats that you know to sorcerer spells without increasing the casting time. This benefit even lets you quicken your sorcerer spells with the Quicken Spell feat. You can use this class feature a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Int modifier (minimum 1). This is an extraordinary ability.
The way I read it, it says I can always apply metamagics without increasing casting time. In addition I can Quicken 3 + int spells per day for free.
That's a stretch.
You can use the class feature 3+Int times per day.
Metamagic Specialist is the name of the class feature.
You could read it otherwise, but it'd be way sketchy.

I recommend Rapid Metamagic because most of my Sorcerers have a hard time putting more than a base 13 or 14 in Int without sacrificing Cha or Con and the adventuring day is usually more than 5 turns long. With metamagic specialist, I usually end up casting a bunch of spells per day as full round actions.

The Spellsurge is a fair point though. I've used Ocular spell to kind of get around that, but generally Metamagic specialist has an advantage there.

[Zilter]

That's a stretch.
You can use the class feature 3+Int times per day.
Metamagic Specialist is the name of the class feature.
You could read it otherwise, but it'd be way sketchy.

I recommend Rapid Metamagic because most of my Sorcerers have a hard time putting more than a base 13 or 14 in Int without sacrificing Cha or Con and the adventuring day is usually more than 5 turns long. With metamagic specialist, I usually end up casting a bunch of spells per day as full round actions.

The Spellsurge is a fair point though. I've used Ocular spell to kind of get around that, but generally Metamagic specialist has an advantage there.

Yeah, I read up on the core rules regarding metamagic and figured out why Rapid Metamagic is so much better.


In addition, I now have a Raven familiar that can use my skillpoints from rogue to aid me in most skill, and operate wands and scrolls to aid me in combat with Use Magic Device.

The familiar can deliver touch spells. Can it deliver ranged touch spells too?

[Rubik]

Make sure you grab Dispelling Ray and Chain Spell so you can abuse the heck out of your dispelling. Of course, you can also use targeted Dispel Magic that way, but it won't work with ray-only things (and then again, regular Dispel isn't Ray Deflected, either).

Also, Fell Drain? Anything you can use to add some damage of some sort to non-damaging rays should allow you to get extra sneak attack damage in.

[Zilter]

Make sure you grab Dispelling Ray and Chain Spell so you can abuse the heck out of your dispelling. Of course, you can also use targeted Dispel Magic that way, but it won't work with ray-only things (and then again, regular Dispel isn't Ray Deflected, either).

Also, Fell Drain? Anything you can use to add some damage of some sort to non-damaging rays should allow you to get extra sneak attack damage in.

Valid points, but I don't have an abundance of feats. :(

[Rubik]

Valid points, but I don't have an abundance of feats. :(Fair enough. Though I think Chain Spell and Fell Drain would be amazingly useful to you on crowds and for debuffs.

Put them together and...