[PF] DEX to Damage for an Archer?

[Jack Zander]

Are there any ways to add Dexterity to damage to a bow for a character?

Also, which class/archetype does archery the best?

[HunterOfJello]

Archery got a lot better in Pathfinder! It was bad in 3.5 but got better in the conversion. Also, Arcane Archers became playable and really cool!

Yeah... Sadly, that's all I actually know about this topic. Good luck.

[Mystify]

I think a zen archery monk is the best. They can flurry with bows, use the monk bonus feats for archery, and do all sorts of cool archery tricks with ki. They also get to use wisdom for the accuracy, so its much less MAD than a typical monk.

[Bhaakon]

Are there any ways to add Dexterity to damage to a bow for a character?

No.


Also, which class/archetype does archery the best?

Luring Cavalier archetype, Zen Archer (monk archetype) and (if you think you'll be able to use smiting reliably) Paladins are all good archers, because they can pump their damage (always the biggest problem with archer builds). Inquisitors can also pump their damage with bane and judgements, but they'll always be a step behind in number of attacks. Unfortunately, it's hard to get sneak attack after the surprise round without flanking, so rogue archers (in my experience, anyway) struggle.

I haven't seen it used much, but a myrmidarch archetype magus can pump its damage with its arcane pool and cast its touch spells through ranged attacks, which is potentially quite useful (though at a big price, losing 1 spell slot per level).

[Blisstake]

In my opinion, Inquisitors and Fighters make the best archers.

Inquisitors because their judgement + bane hurts like hell. With a bunch of arrows each round gettin 2d6+2 to 4d6+4 additional damage, plus any judgement modifiers, it adds up to a crap ton of damage. Unfortunately, they are fairly weak early on, but they absolutely wreck late game.

Fighters on the otherhand get great amounds of damage due to their weapon training and bonus feats. Think about it, with Weapon Training 4, and all the focus/spec feats, you're getting +6 to hit and +8 to damage on every single arrow (which you can fire up to 7 in a round with haste/rapid shot/manyshot). Add deadly aim to that, and you get +0/+20 which absolutely obliterates low AC enemies. They also have early access to feats, and can get luxury ones like the snap shot line with combat reflexes.

But you can't add dex to damage, sorry.

[Mystify]

Its worth noting that zen archer gets weapon specilization for the bow automatically, so they do have aslight damage bump from that. They also get to use perfect strike with the bow, rolling damage two or three and taking the better result on one attack per round. They can also use ki to increase the damage dice of their arrows to that of their unarmed strikes, making the arrows do significantly more base damage a well. While being flurried, so they have more attacks.

That means they have 2d10+2 damage from monk abilities at 20th, compared to the base d8. thats effectively a +8 damage boost. A fighter gets a +4, and can boost it to a +8 with weapon specializations. However, the monk still has more arrows, and any damage boosts on top of that both can do. The fighter has slightly more accuracy, but its only due to his fighter bonus; the penalty for flurry is the same as rapid shot, but flurry scales.

So they are relatively balanced against each other, but I think monk pulls ahead. It depends on what you want to do, though. Monk has a lot more class features on top of the archery. Fighter can do combat manuevers at range, and can do an attack against all enemies in range at higher levels. Monk can do trick shots, even shooting through walls if need be, and has the cool monk abilities.

[Krazzman]

Zen Archer Monk.

Like Fighter you get TONS of Bonus Feats, you are SAD (except needing a 13 in Dex and 14 in Str [for composite]) since you only need wisdom.

Furthermore he gets one of the best synergies to be an Arcane Archer with only needing wisdom for ranged combat, ac and casting. Additionally it is pretty easy to get +WIS on damage thanks to the guided property.
THe great bonus point is: Good Saves, especially will. AND you can combine it with other good archetypes. Hungry Ghost for example to get KI back and to throw some of the bad Monk abilities away. The Quing-gong....well depends on your DM if he let's you take it or not since the last Monk abilities affected by Zen Archer are also affected by Quin-Gong (which does not say you HAVE to change but more like you CAN change...).

Hope this helps.

[ArcGygas]

Ehh, yes and no. If you take the Crossbowman (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/coreClasses/fighter.html#crossbowman) Archetype for Fighter, you get to add 1/2 your Dex (and later your full Dex) to damage, but only if it's a readied action.

Depending on your GM, this could be either very simple (my readied action is I shoot him should he attempt to move) or very difficult (he moved by casting Dimension Door since you didn't specify casting).

In my humble opinion, the Crossbowman Archetype is quite powerful, if you take all the range appropriate feats, but you've also gotta toss in Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedFeats.html#crossbow-mastery). (Although, the latter could be snagged up by a 6th level Ranger as part of his Combat Style feats.)

But as far as Bow and Arrow Archer? Zen Archer or Fighter base (although the Archer Archetype isn't awful...).

[Keneth]

In an evil-centric campaign (lots of undead or fiends work best), a paladin wreaks havoc with a bow and smite evil. Inquisitor is alright but somewhat lagging behind, though not by much with proper speccing. Fighters are meh, they can do alright but no more so than rangers or zen archery monks as far I've seen so far.

[Psyren]

You can get Wis to damage in PF Psionics with Intuitive Shot (1 attack) and Greater Intuitive Shot (all attacks.)

[Jack Zander]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm thinking of playing a goblin archer for the incredible boost to accuracy, and was hoping to somehow use my massive Dex for a damage boost. I didn't know you could combine hungry ghost with zen archer. With the boost to my ki points I should have no problem doing all sorts of archery tricks and bonus damage. Of course, my Dex will be higher than my Wis, but only needing 2 stats isn't nearly as bad as the typical 4-5 that a monk needs.

[Ravens_cry]

See if your DM will let you use a High Goblin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/jon-brazer-enterprises/high-goblin-jbe), they get bonuses to Dexterity AND Wisdom.

[Jack Zander]

See if your DM will let you use a High Goblin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/jon-brazer-enterprises/high-goblin-jbe), they get bonuses to Dexterity AND Wisdom.

Oh wow, now that's a nice little gem. Thanks!

[Ravens_cry]

Oh wow, now that's a nice little gem. Thanks!
If you start above a certain level, Dwarf is better as it gets bonuses to Con and Wis, which are all a Zen Archer really needs after a while. The +1 accuracy bonus for being small is not, in my opinion worth the reduced Unarmed Strike damage progression, which on Medium track, will exceed your damage die for arrows at 8th level, and even sooner with an item of Enlarge Person, which are pretty darn cheap on the whole.

[Krazzman]

Still, try to get 14 Strength for a +2 dmg on every attack.
You can even combine it to a Hungry Ghost Zen Archer Quingong Monk (at least if your DM is nice to monks)

Dex is only needed till 13 for feats, maybe 14 for skills and AC anything more is bonus or waste if you actually had to buy thos points.
Remember Zen Archer only applies to Bows. Additionally a little chunk of Empyreal Bloodline Sorcerer for buffs like Gravity Bow, True strike and so on will be made out of win.

[Jack Zander]

If you start above a certain level, Dwarf is better as it gets bonuses to Con and Wis, which are all a Zen Archer really needs after a while. The +1 accuracy bonus for being small is not, in my opinion worth the reduced Unarmed Strike damage progression, which on Medium track, will exceed your damage die for arrows at 8th level, and even sooner with an item of Enlarge Person, which are pretty darn cheap on the whole.

Compared to a dwarf, goblin is actually +2 accuracy.

[Ravens_cry]

Compared to a dwarf, goblin is actually +2 accuracy.
Not past 3rd level with Zen Archer.

[Jack Zander]

Not past 3rd level with Zen Archer.

Yes it is, goblins get +2 for dex and +1 for size while dwarves only get the +1 for wisdom.

[Ravens_cry]

Yes it is, goblins get +2 for dex and +1 for size while dwarves only get the +1 for wisdom.
And at 3rd level, a Zen Archer can use their Wisdom to hit.

[Jack Zander]

And at 3rd level, a Zen Archer can use their Wisdom to hit.

Can, but why would a goblin favor wisdom over dexterity when they have a greater dexterity bonus?

[Curious]

Can, but why would a goblin favor wisdom over dexterity when they have a greater dexterity bonus?

Because Wisdom is also being added to your Will save, AC, and fuels all of your important class features.

[Ravens_cry]

Because Wisdom is also being added to your Will save, AC, and fuels all of your important class features.
And Damage as well with the right weapon property (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided).
And yes, this is meant for ranged weapons, as the example item in the source book was a crossbow.

[grarrrg]

Unfortunately, it's hard to get sneak attack after the surprise round without flanking, so rogue archers (in my experience, anyway) struggle.

Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) Rogue archetype, if you move 10+ft. in a round you get guaranteed Sneak Attack damage. And you could combine it with the Sniper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/sniper) archetype to increase the Sneak Attack range.
Although the above gets great damage per attack, they are prevented from making Full Attacks, and only have 3/4 Bab.
Your mileage may vary.

[Xander96]

These are all valid suggestions and I've enjoyed the readings thus far. The only concern I have regarding a zen archer monk is that they are a medium ab class. And they don't really have anything to help boost their ab, whereas Other classes such as the inquisitor, ranger, paladin, and the fighter have either spells or feats that help enhance their ab.

That is the role of the archer. Hit Hard. Hit Often. I totally understand where the Wis to damage can be enticing, however, you cannot apply that damage if you don't hit the target.

The inquisitor from what I've seen is decent in ranged combat, but still not quite as good as a high ab class, such as the paladin, fighter, and ranger.

The ranger class is cool because if crap hits the fan. You always have your animal companion to help you out in a jam.

The paladin is cool because you can just eek out loads of damage, great saves, and the ability to heal yourself if you need to.

And if you just want to focus on being an archery machine gun. I would say fighter is the way to go. You're certainly not feat starved whatsoever. So you can take all the archery feats such as the PBS, Rapid Shot, ect. And then add other feats such as, Deadly Aim, WF, GWF, WS, GWS, Vital Strike tree, Devestating strike, and weapon training. You're ab and damage to hit is going to be absolutely INSANE!

That's just my 2 cents anyways.

I would suggest go through all the suggestions. And calculate out what each class provides. Calculate a min/max ab/dps rate. And that should help you along on in your quest in making the best archer out there!

Good Luck!

[Chained Birds]

So, is gunslinger just not talked about? Because if you can get a gun in the game, you can add dex mod to damage or charisma depending on if you take the mysterious stranger archetype. Just throwing it out there.

On a related note, too bad you can't add the Agile weapon enchantment to a ranged weapon.

[grarrrg]

These are all valid suggestions and I've enjoyed the readings thus far. The only concern I have regarding a zen archer monk is that they are a medium ab class. And they don't really have anything to help boost their ab, whereas Other classes such as the inquisitor, ranger, paladin, and the fighter have either spells or feats that help enhance their ab.

That is the role of the archer. Hit Hard. Hit Often. I totally understand where the Wis to damage can be enticing, however, you cannot apply that damage if you don't hit the target.

The Monk's Bab is not a problem if making a Flurry of Bows. When making a Flurry they use their level as their Bab (with the -2 making a Flurry). So once the Monk hits level 5, their Bab and their Flurry Bab are the same, but the Flurry gives them an extra attack. Once they hit level 9 their Flurry Bab is better.

Also worth noting, is that having Flurry saves you two feats. You cannot combine Rapid Shot/Many Shot with a Flurry, but that's ok because Rapid Shot is actually strictly WORSE than a Flurry (due to the Level = Bab thing).

Monk is also ROLLING in the bonus feats:
You get to choose a bonus feat at levels 1, 2, 6.... and you can ignore the pre-requisites. This mostly means you can dump your Dex to 13 (you can pick up the important "15+Dex Req" feats through these bonus feats)

You also get the following automatically:
Perfect Strike at level 1
Weapon Focus at 2
Point Blank Master at 3
Weapon Specialization at 6

At 5th he can use his Unarmed Strike damage instead of Bow base damage.
At 9th he can make Attacks of Opportunity with his arrows.
At 11th he can use Ki to ignore Cover/Concealment

The ONLY reason I see to NOT go Monk is if you want to make Combat Maneuvers with your arrows, then you need Archer archetype Fighter.

[Kaeso]

I think the feat "crossbow sniper" allows you to add half of your dex bonus to damage when using a crossbow, and also allows you to sneak attack/skirmish from 60 ft. away rather than the usual 30 ft. Great for ranged rogues, not so great for any other kind of archer.

[JellyPooga]

On the question of what class does archery best, it's a fairly open-ended question. What sort of archery?

For the "machine-gun" archer, then most of the above posts is what you want.

If you're looking more for a "sniper" archer, however, being able to fire a bajillion arrows a round isn't going to help when you want to hide afterwards. For that, you'll probably want Rogue.

Similarly, a "skirmish" or "horseback" archer isn't going to be standing still long enough to take advantage of the Zen Archer Monks flurry or the Rapid Shot Feat, so another avenue must be sought.

[Xander96]

The Monk's Bab is not a problem if making a Flurry of Bows. When making a Flurry they use their level as their Bab (with the -2 making a Flurry). So once the Monk hits level 5, their Bab and their Flurry Bab are the same, but the Flurry gives them an extra attack. Once they hit level 9 their Flurry Bab is better.

Also worth noting, is that having Flurry saves you two feats. You cannot combine Rapid Shot/Many Shot with a Flurry, but that's ok because Rapid Shot is actually strictly WORSE than a Flurry (due to the Level = Bab thing).

Monk is also ROLLING in the bonus feats:
You get to choose a bonus feat at levels 1, 2, 6.... and you can ignore the pre-requisites. This mostly means you can dump your Dex to 13 (you can pick up the important "15+Dex Req" feats through these bonus feats)

You also get the following automatically:
Perfect Strike at level 1
Weapon Focus at 2
Point Blank Master at 3
Weapon Specialization at 6

At 5th he can use his Unarmed Strike damage instead of Bow base damage.
At 9th he can make Attacks of Opportunity with his arrows.
At 11th he can use Ki to ignore Cover/Concealment

The ONLY reason I see to NOT go Monk is if you want to make Combat Maneuvers with your arrows, then you need Archer archetype Fighter.

You're correct in that the monk can you use their base class for their bab when flurrying, however, they can only apply flurry to monk weapons and not bows per this description:

Flurry of Blows (Ex)
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk’s base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

So yes a monk can flurry with shurikens, but not a bow.

[stack]

For completeness sake, I will mention that a cleric can take channel smite and guided hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/-guided-hand) to get WIS to attack for a cleric using their deities favored weapon. Doesn't help the BAB or bonus damage, but you're still a cleric. You don't need Dex either. Not really an archer at that point, but its worth mentioning.

[Jack Zander]

You're correct in that the monk can you use their base class for their bab when flurrying, however, they can only apply flurry to monk weapons and not bows per this description:

Flurry of Blows (Ex)
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk’s base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

So yes a monk can flurry with shurikens, but not a bow.

Zen archer allows you to flurry with a bow.

[mikau013]

And Damage as well with the right weapon property (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided).
And yes, this is meant for ranged weapons, as the example item in the source book was a crossbow.

So that means if I have a high str char, I can take this property and do attack and dmg with strength with a bow/x-bow etc. if only I take a -2 penalty on attacks?

[Xander96]

Ah yes! I see it now. Thanks for pointing that out! I missed that before. I retract my previous statement.

So you can in fact use a bow as a monk if you go the route of the Zen Archer route, but don't you miss out on some good monk goodies if you go this route?

I would still calculate out all of the suggested classes and see what nets you the best result.

[Ravens_cry]

So that means if I have a high str char, I can take this property and do attack and dmg with strength with a bow/x-bow etc. if only I take a -2 penalty on attacks?
Perhaps by RAW, it's not the best worded property, but I wouldn't try it unless you have a good saving throw vs. flying DM.

[mikau013]

Perhaps by RAW, it's not the best worded property, but I wouldn't try it unless you have a good saving throw vs. flying DM.

Flying DM or flying DMG? :smalleek:

[Ravens_cry]

Flying DM or flying DMG? :smalleek:
I meant what I said and I said what I meant.:smallamused:

[Xander96]

So I did some calculations. And it seems as though that the fighter has a very good ab and dps output due to feats, weapon training, ect.

The paladin is very good as well, but the only times he does super dps. It's only against evil enemies. And from what I've seen in the spell list. Most of the spells, other than bless and divine favor are more aligned for melee combat and not ranged.

It seems as though the ranger has spells that are ranged attack friendly. They have more skill points than the other classes. They gain favored enemies, which also enhances the ab/dps. And they have a favored companion. So it seems like to me that ranger would probably be the way to go. Unless, I am missing something.

[grarrrg]

You're correct in that the monk can you use their base class for their bab when flurrying, however, they can only apply flurry to monk weapons and not bows per this description:
.....

So yes a monk can flurry with shurikens, but not a bow.

:sigh:
You'll have to forgive me for not specifying Zen Archer Monk, which can Flurry with a Bow, but ONLY with a Bow.


So you can in fact use a bow as a monk if you go the route of the Zen Archer route, but don't you miss out on some good monk goodies if you go this route?

Define, "Monk Goodies".
The only thing that will really be missed is Evasion, and maybe Immune Disease.

[mikau013]

If you have the room, saddle surge is brilliant for Ranged attacks, get a mount with high move, make a single move and full attack for a nice damage bonus.

[Xander96]

:sigh:
You'll have to forgive me for not specifying Zen Archer Monk, which can Flurry with a Bow, but ONLY with a Bow.




It's not a bad option. I just don't think it's the best imho

[Bovine Colonel]

So you can in fact use a bow as a monk if you go the route of the Zen Archer route, but don't you miss out on some good monk goodies if you go this route?

You lose:
Stunning Fist (something of a blow, but in return you pretty well get to auto hit (your level) times per day)
Evasion (hurts somewhat I guess)
Maneuver Training (because you'll be trying to grapple with a bow :smallwink:)
Still Mind (you should have a high WIS anyway, and in return you get to fire while threatened)
Purity of Body (Get the Cleric to heal whatever disease you get, he's able to by now)
Improved Evasion (ow, but in return you get to threaten flippin' everybody, including the enemy casters that might be trying make you make Reflex saves in the first place)
Diamond Body (again, get the Cleric to heal you, he's been able to for four levels)
Tongue of the Sun and Moon (again, the Cleric's been able to let you do this for 12 levels)

[Blisstake]

Zen Archer Monk.

Like Fighter you get TONS of Bonus Feats, you are SAD (except needing a 13 in Dex and 14 in Str [for composite]) since you only need wisdom.

Furthermore he gets one of the best synergies to be an Arcane Archer with only needing wisdom for ranged combat, ac and casting. Additionally it is pretty easy to get +WIS on damage thanks to the guided property.
THe great bonus point is: Good Saves, especially will. AND you can combine it with other good archetypes. Hungry Ghost for example to get KI back and to throw some of the bad Monk abilities away. The Quing-gong....well depends on your DM if he let's you take it or not since the last Monk abilities affected by Zen Archer are also affected by Quin-Gong (which does not say you HAVE to change but more like you CAN change...).

Hope this helps.

Eh... I still prefer the fighter, to be honest. The Zen monk has to spend Ki to up their damage, and using it once/round can make you run out fairly fast, even at the higher levels. The monk still has to invest into strength and dexterity early on, in addition to constitution. Furthermore, it doesn't stack with Hungry Ghost (they both replace stunning fist), so ki will end up being a limited resource. They're good, but to be honest, I think I prefer the fighter's consistent damage throughout most levels, and if you're looking for crazy potential late game, I think the inquisitor can actually pull off more damage than a monk, combined with 6th level divine spells.

On the plus side, however, the monk and inquisitor have much better defenses against magic. Especially if you make them dwarves. This makes them better overall (late game),

Also! THE GUIDED WEAPON PROPERTY IS NOT PATHFINDER-LEGAL

This gets mentioned all the time, but it's the equivalent of using 3.5 homebrew in a Pathfinder game.


And Damage as well with the right weapon property (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided).
And yes, this is meant for ranged weapons, as the example item in the source book was a crossbow.

See above.

[Ravens_cry]

OK, it was printed back when the Paizo Adventure Paths used 3.5, because Pathfinder didn't even exist yet, at least in its (more or less) final form. But it was printed by Paizo for an adventure printed by Paizo for a world that became the default world of Pathfinder.
It's Pathfinder in all but name.

[Blisstake]

I'm going to continue bringing that point up until Paizo oficially adds it to Pathfinder, which seems unlikely considering it's been out for 2.5 years.

A large number of their pre-PFRPG content has been converted/ported to the new ruleset, but this one hasn't. If it doesn't show up in Ultimate Equipment, I'm guessing that it never will be added.

[Xander96]

:sigh:
You'll have to forgive me for not specifying Zen Archer Monk, which can Flurry with a Bow, but ONLY with a Bow.




It's not a bad option. I just don't think it's the best imho

[Bovine Colonel]

It's not a bad option. I just don't think it's the best imho


It's not a bad option. I just don't think it's the best imho

:smallconfused:
You've...said this twice now. Can you elaborate?

[Krazzman]

So ok,

I mixed up with the Hungry Ghost Monk.
But who says you need to use ALL the Ki in one friggin round?
It's like saying Wizards are not as good spellcasters as Warlocks are, cause they run out of spells...

And for Guided... it's official since it's source is:

Section 15: Copyright Notice - Pathfinder 10: A History of Ashes
Pathfinder 10: A History of Ashes. Copyright 2008, Paizo Publishing LLC. Author: Michael Kortes
Bolded mine (this sounds so darn wrong...)

Disallowing this enchantment would be similiar to not be allowed to take Gold weapons, while not playing in Faerun cause "hey the desciption only came up in Faith and Pantheons"....

[jmelesky]

And for Guided... it's official since it's source is:


... which is from the Pathfinder series of Adventure Paths (specifically, one of the Curse of the Crimson Throne (http://paizo.com/products/btpy82u9?Pathfinder-10-Curse-of-the-Crimson-Throne-Chapter-4-A-History-of-Ashes) adventures), which were written for D&D 3.5.

Pathfinder, the RPG, was first published in 2009, after the 2008 publication date of that adventure. The game didn't exist yet.

[Blisstake]

So ok,

I mixed up with the Hungry Ghost Monk.
But who says you need to use ALL the Ki in one friggin round?
It's like saying Wizards are not as good spellcasters as Warlocks are, cause they run out of spells...

And for Guided... it's official since it's source is:

Bolded mine (this sounds so darn wrong...)

Disallowing this enchantment would be similiar to not be allowed to take Gold weapons, while not playing in Faerun cause "hey the desciption only came up in Faith and Pantheons"....

Allow me to bold the relevant part:


Pathfinder 10: A History of Ashes. Copyright 2008, Paizo Publishing LLC. Author: Michael Kortes

Pathfinder as a product identity has been around since 2007 I believe. It has not been a role-playing game system until August 2009. This was made as an item for the 3.5 ruleset. If 3.5 material isnt' legal in play (not always the case, but here it is), then the guided weapon can't be either. If this was an important item for the PFRPG, then I have no doubt it would have been converted during the 2 and half years that the PFRPG has been around. Well, it hasn't.

It's like letting races from Starwars d20 into a 3.5 game. It may be from the same company, but it was intended for a different game system.

[HandofCrom]

Guided is banned from Pathfinder Society Organized games and I read somewhere in the depths of the forums one of the designers said they wouldn't port it because they didn't want it in their new game.

[Krazzman]

I feel like I'm discussing with someone wether god exists or not...

Let's just say you want to play it strictly and won't let the monk have nice things and we play with our, in your eyes probably unbalanced piece of crêpe.

Then you are happy and I don't have to read something about content of a Campaign setting can't be used in a campaign setting game...

But if you only stay on this point because you assume PFS, then you are right, it's not allowed.

[Ravens_cry]

Guided is banned from Pathfinder Society Organized games and I read somewhere in the depths of the forums one of the designers said they wouldn't port it because they didn't want it in their new game.
Hide shirt is banned in Pathfinder Society games, so it really isn't the best judge of whether something is official or not.

[Mystify]

if guided was allowed, it would be the first enchantments put on their amulet of might fists.

[Blisstake]

Let's just say you want to play it strictly and won't let the monk have nice things and we play with our, in your eyes probably unbalanced piece of crêpe.

You are missing the point completey. I don't care about balance. It could be a property that only benefitted barbarians, or fighters, or wizards, or be a complete piece of crap and my answer would be the exact same. This is about the content at all; it's about where it comes from.

And it comes from a source that isn't official PFRPG. It's made for 3.5, and as such, any post suggesting it as a solution should include that disclaimer.

Edit: And this isn't my opinion. Whether I like it or not is also completely irrelevant. The fact is, it doesn't count as Pathfinder RPG material.

[jmelesky]

Let's just say you want to play it strictly and won't let the monk have nice things and we play with our, in your eyes probably unbalanced piece of crêpe.


The question isn't whether it's balanced or not, it's whether it's part of Pathfinder (the RPG). And the answer to that is "No. The Pathfinder RPG did not exist when this feat was created, and the feat has not been ported to the Pathfinder RPG system in any published source."


Then you are happy and I don't have to read something about content of a Campaign setting can't be used in a campaign setting game...

Plenty of stuff in 2ed Faerun didn't make it to 3.Xed Faerun. You could convert it, and allow it in your game, but it would require conversion, because they are two different games with the same campaign setting.


But if you only stay on this point because you assume PFS, then you are right, it's not allowed.

Nope. PFS is fine for Society games, but isn't a good source for what is and isn't part of Pathfinder the RPG.

[FMArthur]

The Hit-and-Run Tactics Fighter ACF from DotU lets you add your Dexterity to damage if you attack a flat-footed foe within 30ft. It also gives you +2 initiative. It's just takes away heavy armor and tower shields (permanently) but can come from a 1-level dip.

[Gotterdammerung]

Are there any ways to add Dexterity to damage to a bow for a character?

Also, which class/archetype does archery the best?

There are 2 ways that i know of.

1 is to put Aptitude enhancement on a bow. It is a +1 enhancement from Tome of Battle.

Then take weapon focus crossbow and Crossbow sniper from PHBII.

You can now apply the effects of those feats to your bow even though they are crossbow feats.

So 1/2 dex damage added to your Aptitude bow damage.


The second way is a feat from dragon magazine. I forget the name, but it allows you to add your dex to damage if your target is within 30 feet and it does not work on targets immune to sneak attack. I don't know which issue it is in off the top of my head, but it did also show up in the dragon compendium.




As for what makes the best archer, clerics and monks can make interesting archers. Outside of being tricky 2 ranger 4 fighter is a nice starting chassis for an archer. From 7th on there is a lot of leeway.

Also, most archery prestige classes in 3.5 are completely dumb. So if you prestige look at melee prestige classes that also affect ranged. Or try to convince your GM to allow 3.0's deepwood sniper.

I have had fun in the past with Horizon Walker 6. I also enjoyed 5 lvls of occult slayer on another archer.

It is also worth looking into purchasing a flying carpet. They can be incredibly strong for archers. They do not take any action to direct. So you can take your full attack while they move. If your nice, you will apply the penalty for making a full ranged attack while a mount moves. BUT you do not have to, the carpet is not classified as a mount.



Edit: Ah, I missed the [PF] in your topic, whoops. I wondered why there was so much discussion about pathfinder, lol. I don't play pathfinder and do know much about it, so my post might not be much help, sorry. I read the rough draft of the pathfinder handbook when it first came out but that is the entirety of my pathfinder experience.

[grarrrg]

Breakdown on levels 1, 4, 8, & 12 of the following
Fighter, Archer
Inquisitor (normal)
Monk, Zen Archer
Paladin, Divine Hunter
Ranger, (normal, although Freebooter gets 1/2 Favored Enemy against ANY ONE target at a time, and Guide gets a more "Smite Evil" like Favored ability)

When you factor in things like HP, Skills, Saves, etc... they all wind up about even Stat-wise.
For sake of argument all unlisted stats are 10, all Level-Up stats go into Primary stat (Dex/Wis as appropriate)
Fighter: 18 Dex, 16(not Str)
Inquisitor: 18 Dex, 16 Wis
Monk: 16 Dex, 18 Wis (only needs 13 Dex, but for the sake of sameness...)
Paladin: 18 Dex, 16 Cha

Rulings/Assumptions
Accuracy is a combination of Bab and passive bonuses, all character have same Base-Stat-Mod-to-hit, so values are at -4 (-5 at level 8)
Accuracy in () is using abilities.
Flurry is being treated as getting the Rapid Shot feat
Accuracy in [] is for Rapid Shot/Flurry (based on Base accuracy)
Bonus Damage is passive bonuses.
Bonus Damage in () is using abilities.
Assume all are using Longbows, and are medium races (1d8)
Feats are Bonus Feats only, not from levels.
Special is for non-numerical bonuses, specials carry downward (I'm not typing everything multiple times)
Level 1:
Fighter: Accuracy: +1 [-1] Bonus Damage: 0 Feats: 1 Special: none.
Inquisitor: Accuracy: 0 (+.5) [-2] Bonus Damage: 0 (+.5) Feats: 0 Special: 1st level Divine spells, can gain either +1 to-hit, or +1 Damage 1-Encounter/day (bonus only applies to 1 at a time, so they are halved)
Monk: Accuracy: -1 [-2] (no Wis-to-hit yet, Dex is 2 worse than others> -1) Bonus Damage: 0 Feats: 3 Special:
Paladin: Accuracy: +1 (+4) [-1] Bonus Damage: 0 (+1) Feats: 1 Special: Smite Evil 1/day
Ranger: Accuracy: +1 (+3) [-1] Bonus Damage: 0 (+2) Feats: 0 Special: 1st Favored Enemy

Winner: Paladin/Ranger both get nice, if situational/limited, damage boosts.
Loser: Monk, no Wis-to-hit puts Monk dead last

Level 4:
Fighter: Accuracy: +4 [+2] Bonus Damage: 0 Feats: 3 Special: Can make 1 Combat Maneuver w/Bow, +5ft. Range Increment
Inquisitor: Accuracy: +3 (+3.5) [+1] Bonus Damage: (+1) Feats: 1 (teamwork) Special: Judge 2/day, 2nd level Divine spells, counts others as having its Teamwork Feats
Monk: Accuracy: +3 [+2] Bonus Damage: 0 Feats: 6 Special: Ki Pool (6) can give extra attacks on Flurry (note: weapon focus is counted as a feat but is NOT added to accuracy, as anyone could take it)
Paladin: Accuracy: +4 (+7) [+2] Bonus Damage: 0 (+4) Feats: 1 Special: 1st level Divine spells, Smite 2/day
Ranger: Accuracy: +4 (+6) [+2] Bonus Damage: 0 (+2) Feats: 2 Special: 1st Divine Spells, Animal Companion

Winner: Monk, can go all day long, albeit with no bonus damage, the only limited resource is Ki Points.
Runner-up: Paladin, Smite Evil is good, but limited uses, and the lack of other bonuses hurt.
Loser: Fighter/Inquisitor. while Fighter can go all day, he has fewer feats then the Monk, Inquisitor is lacking all around.

Level 8:
Fighter: Accuracy: +10 [+8] Bonus Damage: +3 Feats: 3 Special: 2 Combat Maneuvers, +10ft. Range Increment (assume took Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus as feats, NOT counted as feats)
Inquisitor: Accuracy: +6 (+8/+10) [+4] Bonus Damage: 0 (+3/+10) Feats: 2 (teamwork) Special: Judgement 3/day, 2 Judgement effect at same time, Bane 8-rounds/day (second #'s in () are from Bane bonus w/Judgement), 3rd Divine Spells
Monk: Accuracy: +6 [+6] Bonus Damage: +2 (+3) Feats: 7 Special: Ki Arrows can give +1 (average) damage, Ki Pool (9), gains attack at -5 on Flurry (Weapon Specialization is added to Damage but not to feats, as only the Fighter could also take it)
Paladin: Accuracy: +8 (+11/+13) [+6] Bonus Damage: 0 (+8/+10) Feats: 1 Special: 3/day Smite Evil, second #'s in () are Divine Bond bonus > gives +2 bonus for 8-minutes/day, 2nd Divine Spells. Aura of Care would be MUCH more useful if it didn't have 10ft. limit.
Ranger: Accuracy: +8 (+12) [+6] Bonus Damage: 0 (+4) Feats: 3 Special: 2nd Favored Enemy, Improved 1st Favored Enemy, 2nd level Divine spells.

Winner: Monk/Inquisitor. Judgement gives both bonuses now, really giving Inquisitor a boost. Monk gains Weapon Specialization and an extra Flurry attack.
Loser: Fighter, the only thing keeping Paladin from last is Smite Evil. Against non-evil enemies (or hordes of evil ones), Paladin takes last place.

Level 12:
Fighter: Accuracy: +15 [+13] Bonus Damage: +6 Feats: 5 Special: 3 Combat Maneuvers, +15ft Range Increment ('Safe Shot' is identical to Point Blank Master feat, and is counted as a feat, Greater Weapon Specialization counted towards Damage NOT as a feat)
Inquisitor: Accuracy: +9 (+12/+14) [+7] Bonus Damage: 0 (+5/+19) Feats: 4 (teamwork) Special: 4th Divine spells, Judgement 4/day, Greater Bane (more damage) 12 rounds/day
Monk: Accuracy: +9 [+10] Bonus Damage: +2 (+4.5) Feats: 9 Special: Ki Pool 11, can spend Ki to ignore Concealment/Cover/Corners (Reflexive Shot is similar to Snap Shot, counted towards Feats)
Paladin: Accuracy: +12 (+15/+18) [+10] Bonus Damage: 0 (+12/+15) Feats: 1 Special: Divine Bond +3 for 12 minutes/day, Smite Evil 4/day, 3rd Divine spells, Can spend Smite Evil to grant self and Allies 3 feats (not very useful, the Paladin should have at least 2 of those feats already anyway)
Ranger: Accuracy: +12 (+18/+20) [+10] Bonus Damage: 0 (+6) Feats: 4 Special: 3rd level Divine spells, 3rd Favored Enemy, Improved 1st & 2nd Favored Enemy, Quarry gives +2 Accuracy and auto-confirms criticals 1/day (or 1/hour if Quarry killed)

Final Winner/Loser? You decide.



Personally, I like the idea of taking Monk until at least level 8 (for the 2nd bonus Flurry attack), maybe level 10, and then Multi-classing.

[Riverdance]

In my humble opinion, the Crossbowman Archetype is quite powerful, if you take all the range appropriate feats, but you've also gotta toss in Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedFeats.html#crossbow-mastery). (Although, the latter could be snagged up by a 6th level Ranger as part of his Combat Style feats.)

But as far as Bow and Arrow Archer? Zen Archer or Fighter base (although the Archer Archetype isn't awful...).

The crossbow mastery feat is fantastic. +1

[Xander96]

:smallconfused:
You've...said this twice now. Can you elaborate?

Lol...sorry about that!

[Corrik]

No, but at level 5 a Gunslinger can add DEX to damage with guns.

[Ravens_cry]

No, but at level 5 a Gunslinger can add DEX to damage with guns.
Also, guns are touch attacks at certain ranges, you got full BAB, so Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) is almost always worth it. Which, despite the description, works with Firearms. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/firearms#TOC-Firearm-Rules)

[Laniius]

Also! THE GUIDED WEAPON PROPERTY IS NOT PATHFINDER-LEGAL


Actually, no. It is. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/fan-conversions/paizo-adventure-paths/pf-10-a-history-of-ashes is the source. Maybe not legal in Pathfinder Society Play (I don't know, I've never played in that) but it is not 3rd party or homebrew. It's non-core, but it's from a Pathfinder module. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided is where I found the property)

[Laniius]

Also! THE GUIDED WEAPON PROPERTY IS NOT PATHFINDER-LEGAL


Actually, no. It is. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/fan-conversions/paizo-adventure-paths/pf-10-a-history-of-ashes is the source. Maybe not legal in Pathfinder Society Play (I don't know, I've never played in that) but it is not 3rd party or homebrew. It's non-core, but it's from a Pathfinder module. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided is where I found the property)

[jmelesky]

Actually, no. It is.

Actually, no, it isn't. Pathfinder, the RPG, did not exist when that was published. It was published in one of the Pathfinder, the 3.5 Adventure Paths, modules.

It has not been brought into Pathfinder, the RPG, by any source published since the existence of Pathfinder, the RPG. Therefore, it's something created by Paizo for the 3.5 adventure they were publishing, not for Pathfinder, the RPG.

[Ravens_cry]

Are you stressed about spending your point buy, is the gold for magic to increase your statistics stretched too thin?
Introducing Guided™ The MAD Reducer®
Guided™ is cost effective, only a +1 value, and works for both melee and ranged combatants
Guided™ is not for everyone and may create imbalances in some low-optimization games. Guided is not officially recognized by the Pathfinder RPG or Pathfinder Society.
Ask your DM if Guided™ is right for your character.

Guided™ The MAD Reducer®

[Blisstake]

Actually, no. It is. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/fan-conversions/paizo-adventure-paths/pf-10-a-history-of-ashes is the source. Maybe not legal in Pathfinder Society Play (I don't know, I've never played in that) but it is not 3rd party or homebrew. It's non-core, but it's from a Pathfinder module. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided is where I found the property)

No it isn't. That's why I used caps, bold, and size increase, which I don't think I've done since I joined these forums. I explained why it isn't twice already, and jamelesky has been kind enough to explain it again.

However, I have no problems with the property itself. I just think that everyone mentioning it as a solution should include a disclaimer that it is not official PFRPG material (as Ravens_Cry just demonstrated).

[Jack Zander]

No, but at level 5 a Gunslinger can add DEX to damage with guns.

I may have to look into this. Can I full-attack with guns?

[Bhaakon]

I may have to look into this. Can I full-attack with guns?

You can reload early pistols and all advanced firearms as a free action, using rapid reload and cartridges, and a musket, using the musket master archetype. Unfortunately, there's no way to do it with the blunderbuss and other early long guns

[Infernalbargain]

No, but at level 5 a Gunslinger can add DEX to damage with guns.

A pistolero can add double their dex to pistols. Oh yes, let's dual wield double-barreled pistols too while using double-tap and signature deed for Up Close and Deadly. Now go watch those dragons cry in a corner from massive damage.

[grarrrg]

A pistolero can add double their dex to pistols. Oh yes, let's dual wield double-barreled pistols too while using double-tap and signature deed for Up Close and Deadly. Now go watch those dragons cry in a corner from massive damage.


The "Pistolero Double Dex Damage" is largely regarded as a misprint/oversight (definately due for errata).
BUT if you can slip it past your DM......

If you want to read up on Firearms, I highly recommend the (in progress) Gunslinger Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213035)



Oh yes, let's dual wield double-barreled pistols too while using double-tap and signature deed for Up Close and Deadly. Now go watch those dragons cry in a corner from massive damage.
Dual wield? Thinking a little small (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12152413#post12152413) aren't we?

[Xander96]

A pistolero can add double their dex to pistols. Oh yes, let's dual wield double-barreled pistols too while using double-tap and signature deed for Up Close and Deadly. Now go watch those dragons cry in a corner from massive damage.

I'm lacking to find where it says that the pisterelo gains double dex damage. I see bonus = to dex mod, but not double.

[grarrrg]

I'm lacking to find where it says that the pisterelo gains double dex damage. I see bonus = to dex mod, but not double.

'Normal' Gunslingers get Dex to damage at level 5 with Gun Training.

Pistoleros get Dex to damage at level 5 with Pistol Training.

The catch is that Pistoleros (currently) do NOT trade away Gun Training. So he (currently) technically gets both.


Obviously in need of Errata.

[Bhaakon]

I'm lacking to find where it says that the pisterelo gains double dex damage. I see bonus = to dex mod, but not double.

A Pistolero gains the Pistol Training ability, which grants Dex mod to damage when using pistols. However, it also retains the Gun Training ability of the base gunslinger class, which grants Dex mod to damage when using any firearms.

It is virtually certain that Pistol Training was meant to replace Gun Training--doubling down on a single stat bonus is anomalous in Pathfinder, and there's a parallel ability in the Musket Master archetype which does replace Gun training--but it wasn't written that way. From the look of the text, it appears that the final sentence of the entry, where the replacement would have been noted, was accidentally omitted.

[Ravens_cry]

Indeed, there have been other such misprints. For example, in the first printing, the Core Rulebook said dropping 10 to 9 COST a point from your pointbuy.
This is somewhat more subtle, but I doubt I would allow it as a DM or seek it out as player.
The way to the Dark Side that is.

[Xander96]

Hmmm...I will have to keep that noted

[Jack Zander]

Why in the world is reloading a pistol a free action? I understand the balance issue, but pistols were by no means quick to reload.

[Blisstake]

Because they don't want to balance guns around taking turns to load?

Plus, technology is all wonky in the Golarion setting. They've got giant metal spider death-mechas, so I don't see the harm in adding guns that reload faster than normal (you need the right feats/ammunition for it to be a free action anyway)

[Bhaakon]

Why in the world is reloading a pistol a free action? I understand the balance issue, but pistols were by no means quick to reload.

For the same reason why a shotgun fires in a 30 foot, 90 degree cone (where as, IRL, it's more like a 1 foot diameter "cone" at 30 feet).

[Jack Zander]

You can reload early pistols and all advanced firearms as a free action, using rapid reload and cartridges, and a musket, using the musket master archetype. Unfortunately, there's no way to do it with the blunderbuss and other early long guns

How can you use cartridges with early guns?

[grarrrg]

How can you use cartridges with early guns?

They are "alchemical" cartridges. Compared to power+ball they have an increased change of going *putt* instead of *BANG!*, but they speed up the reload time.

See this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/firearms) for more info on PF Firearms.

By "default" a Pistol is a Standard action to reload, and a musket is a Full-Round (reloading single shots mind you).
Through various Feats/Class Features/etc... you can get them both down to a Free Action reload.

[Ravens_cry]

How can you use cartridges with early guns?
I believe they are referring to alchemical cartridges (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/alchemical-cartridges).
EDIT: I was right! Ninja-ed, but right.

[Averis Vol]

its a game mechanic, just like being able to crank a heavy crossbow (that usually took upwards on 10 seconds) back and fire multiple times. for sanity sake, let it go at that.

[FMArthur]

For the same reason why a shotgun fires in a 30 foot, 90 degree cone (where as, IRL, it's more like a 1 foot diameter "cone" at 30 feet).
It is the most blunderous blunderbuss. Its blunderousnous was carefully engineered to be what it is.

[Mystify]

Crossbows were also quite cumbersome to load and ****, and you can easily get them down to a free action reload with a single feat. I don't see anyone complaining about that.

Edit: Don't you hate it when you use a word in a perfectly innocent use, only to find it gobbled by the profanity filter?

[Jack Zander]

Thanks for the clarification on Cartridges. I may have to go this route with my next character.

[mikau013]

Crossbows were also quite cumbersome to load and ****, and you can easily get them down to a free action reload with a single feat. I don't see anyone complaining about that.

Edit: Don't you hate it when you use a word in a perfectly innocent use, only to find it gobbled by the profanity filter?

Not to mention slings, which are harder to use than an x-bow or regular bow but you can shoot faster with slings than either of the other 2. And yet in game they are simple weapons which take a move to reload.

[Averis Vol]

Not to mention slings, which are harder to use than an x-bow or regular bow but you can shoot faster with slings than either of the other 2. And yet in game they are simple weapons which take a move to reload.

well slings are a funny thing in that they aren't particularly hard to reload but they're hard to set up. thats getting the stone in the pocket and setting up the strings in the right position. i was always bad with a sling but i had a friend who could sling off five or six stones with it just looking like he was windmilling it.

[Ravens_cry]

Crossbows were also quite cumbersome to load and ****, and you can easily get them down to a free action reload with a single feat. I don't see anyone complaining about that.

Edit: Don't you hate it when you use a word in a perfectly innocent use, only to find it gobbled by the profanity filter?
If you specifically set one of the letters to black in the normally blocked word, it won't be blocked. But be sure to use this power for good, not evil, or at least profane, purposes.

[grarrrg]

well slings are a funny thing in that they aren't particularly hard to reload but they're hard to set up. thats getting the stone in the pocket and setting up the strings in the right position. i was always bad with a sling but i had a friend who could sling off five or six stones with it just looking like he was windmilling it.

The problem with Slings is that the "brilliant" designers were thinking of this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/Slingshot_%28weapon%29.jpg/466px-Slingshot_%28weapon%29.jpg

And were NOT thinking of this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Weapon_Sling_1.jpg

[Mystify]

Are you sure? I'm no expert in slings vs. slingshots, but I imagine a slingshot getting a higher rate of fire. I had a an actual sling, and it may be due to my complete in-expertise with it, but it was very cumbersome to load and use. A slingshot, on the other hand, is more like firing a bow, place the stone in the sling as you pull it back, and let it go.

[grarrrg]

Are you sure? I'm no expert in slings vs. slingshots, but I imagine a slingshot getting a higher rate of fire. I had a an actual sling, and it may be due to my complete in-expertise with it, but it was very cumbersome to load and use. A slingshot, on the other hand, is more like firing a bow, place the stone in the sling as you pull it back, and let it go.

That's my point.

*to negate confusion I will refer to the slingshot as a 'slingshot' and a 'sling' as a 'medieval-sling'*

When the designers heard "(medieval-)sling" they focused on "sling" and thought about slingshots. So they made a slingshot, but called it a "medieval-sling".

Later designers noticed this and (occasionally) made "war-slings" and other such that were more representative of actual medieval-slings.

[Mystify]

That's my point.

*to negate confusion I will refer to the slingshot as a 'slingshot' and a 'sling' as a 'medieval-sling'*

When the designers heard "(medieval-)sling" they focused on "sling" and thought about slingshots. So they made a slingshot, but called it a "medieval-sling".

Later designers noticed this and (occasionally) made "war-slings" and other such that were more representative of actual medieval-slings.

No, I mean that I think their representation better fits a sling, not a slingshot.