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Otacon17
2012-01-31, 01:23 AM
I've been running a campaign for awhile that takes place entirely within a single city. There is no overarching plot; I designed the city, broke it up into a few distinct areas, and created a multitude of factions and NPCs within the city to be interacted with. Then I dropped the players into the city and basically said "Do whatever you want. Interact with anyone in any way you desire. If you want to continually improve the city and turn it into a utopia, go for it. If you want to slowly conquer it piece by piece and turn it into your own miniature empire, that's fine too." Taking a cue from an excellent mafia-themed campaign journal I was reading on this site at the time, I also had each player create a 'secret' for their character that no one else was to know about. My players ended up making a Gunslinger who was searching for his wife and a Ninja that was working undercover for a clan of assassins.

This was a totally new experience for me; for the first time in my short DMing career, I wasn't necessarily trying to tell a story, but trying to watch one evolve naturally from character interaction. Now, obviously, to make a game like this work, I had to create a lot of NPCs with a lot of distinct personalities and a lot of things going on in their lives that the PC's actions could affect. I wanted them to be realistic, and I tend to think of people as the sum of their experiences rather than a collection of traits, so I wrote up a 1-2 paragraph backstory for each of them - their history, their relationship to other NPCs, etc. I think a lot of them turned out very well. However, what I’ve noticed is that very little of this information reaches the players. Here’s what I mean:

There were two NPCs named Taevin and Nicholas. These two men had grown up together as best friends - and during their teens, they had become business partners, teaming up to sell contraband in the seedy black markets of the city. They were very profitable; Taevin knew where to get his hands on drugs, and Nicholas was pretty good at brewing illicit potions and poisons. However, one day, Nicholas realized that he could make just as much profit by opening up a legitimate establishment, selling health potions and such. He ended his partnership with his friend and opened his own shop in the marketplace. Taevin was devastated. He felt abandoned by his oldest and closest friend. Yet, at the same time, he couldn’t really blame Nicholas for wanting to get out of the dangerous back alleys and slums they often dealt in. What really stung, though, was when Nicholas decided to have the best of both worlds, and started selling his old poisons out of the back room of his new shop to ‘trustworthy’ customers. The two pretty much stopped talking after that, although they never really forgot their boyhood days spent together.

Fast forward to the time of the campaign, and both are becoming old men. They’re on the far side of middle age and haven’t really been in contact for at least a decade. My players try to move some goods on the black market and happen to meet Taevin, who becomes a regular contact of theirs. Eventually, Ninja mentions that she’s looking for some poison and Taevin (who despite his bitterness can’t truly hate the man he once thought of as a brother) tells her to go see Nicholas and request some goods from his back room. He says to tell Nick that Taevin sent her, and with any luck, his name will still hold some weight. That is, more or less, all of the backstory that those players ever learned (and, considering Nicholas is now in prison and Taevin fled town, likely all they ever will learn) about those characters. All that backstory I wrote up got to the players as "they used to know each other, I guess."

So, what do people think? Am I putting too much effort into my NPCs? Do I really need to come up with a lot of history that my players will likely never hear? What are your strategies for NPC creation? How much information do you put into a campaign that the players never know about?

RedWarlock
2012-01-31, 02:26 AM
I would say that is a WONDERFUL level of detail for NPCs. Really awesome, I'm taking notes here.

On the other hand, I think your issue is timescale. That level of detail is applicable for maybe what's happened in the last 6 months to, at most, 5 years ago. By fast-forwarding the characters to a decade later, you've put it beyond relevance to the players. (Plus, it begs the question, what's happened to them since then? There's 10 years of recent activity that is unexplored.)

I can't say what else happened during the actual session (something obviously DID, for one to have fled and the other been arrested) but that kind of relationship seemed like a good hook to draw those two characters together through the PCs. Maybe Taevin asked the players to let him know what his former buddy was up to, or perhaps Nicholas gets suspicious about the name being offered and rats them out to the guards, or gives them a supply that has an inherent flaw.

Use your written details to draw the players in, make them curious enough to ask more questions about the NPCs or involve themselves in the apparent hooks in the relationship. Ask yourself, 'What's the WORST possible way this detail could have an effect on the player characters?' And let the players' ingenuity work themselves out of it, one way or another.

Velaryon
2012-01-31, 03:15 AM
I run into this same problem with my own NPC's quite a lot. Although I'm working on fixing the problem, quite frequently I end up in situations where an NPC has interesting details in their background that help shape who they are, but that never gets communicated to the PC's. Sometimes it's because they don't show much interest, but more often it's just because there's really not a good way to insert that backstory into what the PC's are doing.

One of the worst examples was a Star Wars campaign I ran about five years ago. One of the PC's had risen to command his own squadron of Y-Wings, and so I developed names, stats, and brief backstories for each and every one of the NPC's that made up his 12-person squadron. Reading over their backgrounds, it seems that a lot of them suffered from crippling psychological problems, many of them brought on by PTSD from some of the more traumatic events of the campaign.

My personal favorite was Lexi, wealthy daughter of a Corellian senator who joined the Rebellion partly because of youthful idealism and partly for the thrills of piloting a fighter in combat. But she also had some self-confidence issues that got worse throughout the campaign. She was addicted to spice (at first for the highs, but later as a way to hide from her problems), but that wasn't her biggest problem. She didn't particularly excel as a pilot, although she wasn't bad, but it led to confidence issues. She felt like her only real value to the Rebellion was her money, which was made worse by the PC's when they repeatedly hit her up for cash once they learned she was rich. Naturally, this fed her spice addiction and made her confidence issues even worse.

Unfortunately, being typical PC's, my players never went out of their way to get to know these pilots, and then one day the entire squadron was wiped out when one of the other PC's betrayed them to the Empire and blew them up with an R2 droid filled up with thermal detonators... :smallfrown:


I think I do a better job these days of shedding some light on interesting NPC's, but I definitely still have this problem quite often. One thing I think can help is to really think about how the players are going to primarily interact with the character in question, and specifically design their background around that so that it's more likely to come up.

pasko77
2012-01-31, 08:12 AM
So, what do people think? Am I putting too much effort into my NPCs? Do I really need to come up with a lot of history that my players will likely never hear? What are your strategies for NPC creation? How much information do you put into a campaign that the players never know about?

The point you always have to ask yourself is: "How will this interact with my players?"
Given the level of detail here, I would say either there is a story centered on this relationship, or it is an overkill.

In particular:



How much information do you put into a campaign that the players never know about?

Zero.

JellyPooga
2012-01-31, 08:25 AM
Personally, I think that however much effort you want to put into your NPC's is fine. The more the better, to my mind. I enjoy creating characters for the sake of creating a personality and I'm currently designing a campaign along very similar lines myself (sandbox city, detailed NPCs). Giving those particular NPC's that history not only gives you a reason for them knowing each other, but will also colour their attitude, not only to each other but towards the PC's as well. A well-rounded and fleshed out NPC feels so much more like a character than one that has little effort put into it.

Having said that, it can be frustrating when you lovingly detail any part of a campaign and the PC's either romp all over it without a second glance or avoid it altogether. With that in mind, it can be prudent only to detail as much as is necessary for the purposes of PC interaction, if those characters are only intended to be minor players in the grand scope of things.

All told, I applaud your effort though. :smallbiggrin:

d13
2012-01-31, 12:45 PM
First of all, I'd like to say that I'd love to have you as a DM, if you do that on a regular basis.
I tend to go out of my way to find details about relevant NPCs' (and, some times, irrelevant xD) lives. It's a side-effect of being a long-time Shadowrun player, but I like my character to be part of the world he is living in, not just some dude that popped out of nowhere.

That said, I know how sad it can be to have to throw backstories away just because the player's didn't seem interested on them.

Having been on both sides of the field, though, I can assure you that it's WAY harder to wing a coherent backstory when you have NOTHING, than to forget about a complex one xD

At any rate, in the example you've given... They can always find a third person that sort of knew them (or their relationship), who can give your players enough detail to spice up their interest? That's what I used to do.

So...
Am I putting too much effort into my NPCs? There's no such thing as 'too much effort'. If you feel comfortable with what you're doing, keep doing it.

Do I really need to come up with a lot of history that my players will likely never hear? You don't need to. You don't need to do anything, actually. You can just wing your whole sessions, but what if they ask something, and you can't come up with an idea?

What are your strategies for NPC creation? Now this is a difficult one. I don't have a strategy. I make my important NPCs with the same level of care and detail I make my PCs, and then a bunch of what I call city mooks. The innkeeper, the blacksmith, etc, etc.

How much information do you put into a campaign that the players never know about? A bunch. When I take my time to make a world, and a fully-fledged campaign, I even make hidden side-dungeons, cities, and seemingly not important NPCs who have valuable (but not exactly needed) information.
It's a very important thing that they get the information they need, but it's much more important to let them get the information that they want.

Otacon17
2012-01-31, 01:04 PM
First of all, thanks for the kind words. It's nice to hear that I'm not doing a terrible job with my NPCs; I'm the main DM of my group, so I don't have much to compare them to :smallsmile:


Personally, I think that however much effort you want to put into your NPC's is fine. The more the better, to my mind. I enjoy creating characters for the sake of creating a personality and I'm currently designing a campaign along very similar lines myself (sandbox city, detailed NPCs). Giving those particular NPC's that history not only gives you a reason for them knowing each other, but will also colour their attitude, not only to each other but towards the PC's as well. A well-rounded and fleshed out NPC feels so much more like a character than one that has little effort put into it.

That was my main reason for putting so much effort into everyone - I want to constantly be able to look at their history and use that to judge how they would react to things in the present. For instance, because of this backstory, I knew exactly how Taevin would react to the players (whom, when he met them, had just started selling contraband together on the black market). They reminded him of himself when he was young, and as a result he decided to sort of mentor them through the process. At first he was all business - he didn't want to get close to them, lest he be hurt again when they left. But he was very lonely; he hadn't really had anyone besides Nick, and the loss of that relationship meant ten long years without anyone but customers to talk to. He couldn't help it - he got attached to the PCs. And they got attached to him, too. In this, at least, I think the backstory was effective. I did intend to bring them together at some point - and, briefly, I did, although sadly it didn't last - but the I saw an opportunity to do something I thought would be very interesting which, unfortunately, led to both of them exiting the campaign. Although Nick was a pretty decent Alchemist... and Alchemists do get bombs. I suppose it wouldn't be impossible for him to break out of jail at some point... hmmm...

Suddo
2012-01-31, 01:20 PM
Man now I want to write a simple simulator to create a entire town or city where in every person has back story. Damn you for making me inspired to do this.

Edit: On topic though, a lot of this is usually learned during the off-the-camera moments when the PCs say something like "We hang out for the night before we take off." This is technically when they would learn these things but forcing the Players to RP 4 hours of them hanging around a bar before going to the Inn to sleep is annoying for both you and the Players. If they want to see if they know anything about the character have them roll a dice. Say when they meet a new contact for Black Market dealings they may say: "Does this guy seem shady." You could say: "Roll me a d20." Then check the result with either rumors or maybe on a 20 they have actually run into the man at a general store. You can either do this actively or passively. Actively is as I described they ask you make them check. Passively means every time they meet someone you make a check and right each PC's knowledge of that character on the NPC's sheet and if they ask you tell them. I prefer active myself.
If you really want to drive home the requirement of this you can screw the PCs over a couple of times because they didn't check. This is similar to making a Perception check every time you enter a room in a dungeon. You should roll a knowledge check every time you meet someone who you may be interacting with more than just "Hi, how are you."

Soylent Dave
2012-01-31, 06:08 PM
I think you are possibly overdetailing your NPCs. But it depends how you look at it.

I tend towards the same problem - I write elaborate backstories for NPCs which I use to build their personalities, and then the PCs deal with them for 30 seconds and move on, never learning most of the stuff I wrote.

I'm starting to move away from this approach (except for major NPCs), but only after I realised my most popular minor NPC resulted from this description:

"Helicopter pilot. Young. Eager. Annoying."

(intended as an incredibly minor character, I had so much fun with him that he ended up bouncing off the PCs and making a much bigger impression than expected)

It made me realise that a good NPC doesn't need a detailed backstory, or even an in-depth psychological profile - but he does need to be easily described.

That helicopter pilot is a bit of an extreme, but it was a description I could latch onto and roleplay well, and so that's the sort of thing I'm trying to recreate in subsequent NPCs - not so that they're all clichéd or enormously memorable, but that each has a definite hook that I can get across pretty quickly (without needing an elaborate backstory - because as far as the PCs are concerned, most NPCs are a personality and maybe a bit of immediate history)

It is difficult to do - I'm used to writing the backstory and using that to fully determine the personality and quirks of my NPC (as you said, people are their experiences), but with my current campaign I'm trying to fit each NPC description on a 3"x5" card, which at least gives me a definite limit.

(with the goal being to create more memorable NPCs with less time invested)

I don't think you're doing anything wrong with your NPCs by any means - it's just pretty time consuming; but if you're happy with that, then you're getting some pretty good NPCs out of it (and writing characters can be enjoyable in its own right)

Seharvepernfan
2012-02-03, 06:40 AM
Well, Kudos for being a quality DM.

I don't think you are detailing too much. The pcs can't encounter everything. Look at video games - every time I play bioshock I find or learn something I didn't know the last time through. Just keep being awesome and your players will start eventually paying more attention.

Also, have you considered DMing online? Like here on the forums? That way you won't have to detail anything until there is a need for it, and there are people here who would love your specific playstyle, and probably appreciate it more than your current players do.

Kol Korran
2012-02-03, 11:13 AM
just my 2 cp, but here goes:

on the whole, in most cases a lot of info can be lost, and this is mainly due to players' attention: you created a whole city that might be used to tell many many stories depending on variosu routes the players take and more, but the players only roleplay their own small path through the world. out of say 50 characters, they'll give serious consideration to 5... 10 if they're serious- the rest are background. i had a similar problem with the level of detail i got to offering interesting choices to players (though my game was more streamlined than yours), both in sheer possiblity, adventure locals and interaction with them. many of the same principles apply- a lot of my material wasn't used.

but does it meant that the effort is wasted? i think not. for several reasons:
1) it allows you to give a consistent and credible (and most time intriguing) feedback in case the characters DO decide to do something unexpected, to develop a relationship more and the like. this usually pays dividends as game doesn't get stuck/ plays in shabby quality when this occurs. this is essential in my mind for any really successful sandbox game, unless you're really good at being imaginative and consistent on the fly. (which despite what most GMs say- they aren't)

2) when i ended the campaign i made a small questionnaire for the players. (not all answered it yet) some really pointed out how knowing they could take any route and that i had a credible answer to things, and not either make something up or tell them "guys, don't go there" really imporved their gaming experience and made them feel more immeresed in the world, and more free to explore and try wild ideas. with your NPCs i think it might be the same- suffice it that they interact unexpectedly with one NPC and find it to be "real"- it's worth it. a liberating experience.

3) a small (yet i think well known) secret... nothing really gets wasted! with slight adjustments, a tweak here or there and an old idea is used as new. the friends may evolve, or in another campaign the players may meet younger versions. or in another district there could be similar (but slightly different) men.

4) last thing- if you want to make something interesting to the players, try to get their interest. the black goods dealer could direct them to his friend, but add mumbling "haven't seen him since we both ran the streets. he's an old con he is, crafty... he he he" that might give him an angle which the players may (or may not) choose to use.

hope this helps. i'm in the process of building my own islands/ pirates/ witches/ mayham campaign. i hope i get your energies for that. :smallwink:

Otacon17
2012-02-03, 07:58 PM
Well, Kudos for being a quality DM.

I don't think you are detailing too much. The pcs can't encounter everything. Look at video games - every time I play bioshock I find or learn something I didn't know the last time through. Just keep being awesome and your players will start eventually paying more attention.

Also, have you considered DMing online? Like here on the forums? That way you won't have to detail anything until there is a need for it, and there are people here who would love your specific playstyle, and probably appreciate it more than your current players do.

I did consider it. Once. But overall, I think I'm just a bit too nervous. Despite how long I've been here, I'm still constantly second-guessing every post I make because I don't want to offend someone or look stupid. I think I'd be a nervous wreck trying to DM here :smalltongue: I certainly appreciate the compliments, though.

I wouldn't say my players don't appreciate the effort; I think that with these characters in particular, their time with them was cut a bit short and they didn't really have the opportunity to learn as much about them as they could have. This was, at least partially, my fault. However, I don't regret anything, as the session that led to those guys exiting the campaign was filled with some incredible roleplaying and was a lot of fun.

Thanks again, everyone, for all of your help!

SgtCarnage92
2012-02-03, 11:08 PM
One of the reasons that a lot of DMs ask their players to write back stories is so that the players have something to go off of when they're trying to RP. Same goes for NPCs and a DM. You mentioned that the reason your one NPC started mentoring the group was because he remembered the "good old days." Would that have happened if you didn't have an elaborate back story?

In the end it comes down to this, what do you require to make a character seem interesting to your players? If you require an elaborate back story to make that happen, then that's what you do, and the game is richer for it. So much of what make people interesting is what they DON'T tell us, but still affects their behavior.