Skirmish, Swift Hunter and OA-tumbling = big ouch? [Archive]

Cwymbran-San

2012-01-31, 05:25 AM

Hi there,

some time ago, i started a little thread about my ranger and my desire to enhance his archery-damage via Order of the Bow Initiate. I was informed that this PrC was rather sub-optimal, damage-wise, and that an ranger/scout multiclass with the Swift Hunter feat was the way to go. And now, just yesterday, my Oriental Adventures fell into my hands.

Skirmisher says, i do additional damage with ranged attacks if i move 10'. Fine.
OA has a use for the tumble skill which allows you to make your 5' step a 10' step, fulfilling the prereq for Skirmisher.

So, as a ranger 6/Scout X, i attempt a tumble at the beginning of the round. Either i make my check and loose a full-attack volley of skirmish-enhanced arrows, or i do not make the check, take a standard move and fire off a skirmish-enhanced multishot.

Is that RAW? To my understanding it is, but i would like confirmation before i present my DM with an archer taht can actually hurt someone.

D@rK-SePHiRoTH-

2012-01-31, 06:06 AM

It is raw, except that OA is 3.0 and might be rejected in a 3.5 campaign

Gwendol

2012-01-31, 06:27 AM

If you are within a threatened area, missing the tumble check may have other consequences, but yes, this is acceptable. Good strategy!

Cwymbran-San

2012-01-31, 06:44 AM

It is raw, except that OA is 3.0 and might be rejected in a 3.5 campaign
Truly? I did not know that, apart from one or two things, the options presented in OA did not seem too cheesy for me...anyway, we are already using material from OA in the campaign, so my DM is rather unlikely to disallow the book itself :smallamused:

Darrin

2012-01-31, 07:01 AM

It is raw, except that OA is 3.0 and might be rejected in a 3.5 campaign

Actually, Oriental Adventures got an official 3.5 update in Dragon #318.

Which puts it in something of a contentious grey area... many DMs reject any Dragon material outright. It was never reprinted elsewhere, but assuming your DM does allow Dragon material, tracking down back issues can be a pain. Even if you have Dragon #318 but your DM still says "no", there are some conversion issues that you might want to be aware of that were not corrected with the OA Web Errata (3.0):

1) Vanara racial stats are still Str -2, Int +2, Wis +2, making them one of the best "caster" races in the game.

2) Hengeyokai still have LA +1. There is no "shapechanger" type in 3.5, but you can follow the convention of other conversions and switch to "human with the shapechanger subtype" easily enough. (Even at LA +1, Hengeyokai Sparrow + Warlock = Awesomesauce).

3) The Kimono of Storing is a fantastic bargain at 4400 GP.

4) Likewise, the Wondrous Writing Set offers a +10 untyped bonus to Forgery for only 2060 GP.

Cwymbran-San

2012-01-31, 07:58 AM

Gwendol

2012-01-31, 08:07 AM

Why DC 40?

Anyway, Acrobat Boots (MiC) are cheap enough to be used at low levels. Gives a permanent +2 to tumble, and three charges of +10' movement/day

D@rK-SePHiRoTH-

2012-01-31, 08:10 AM

Right now, i am looking for options, apart from the obvious ones like skill focus, to get my tumbling skill high enough to regularly beat a DC 40 Tumble check so this little trick is like to work.
Masterwork tools for tumbling? Special boots? Oil? Chalk for sure gripping?
Any magic items i should know?
By the guidelines on DM's Handbook, an item granting a bonus to a skill has a cost of (bonus squared)x1000.
So it's 1'000 GP for a +1 item, 25'000 GP for +5 and 100'000 is +10
Ask your DM

Cwymbran-San

2012-01-31, 08:33 AM

Why DC 40?

Because that is the difficulty for the "make my 5' step a 10' step" Tumble.

Right now, i am Ranger 6/Scout 2 and hard pressed to get enough, but i am working on it. Luckily, Tumble is a class skill for me because of the place of origin of my character (monastry, so cartwheeling, backflipping and jumping around was one of his main occasions as a child).

sonofzeal

2012-01-31, 08:43 AM

By the guidelines on DM's Handbook, an item granting a bonus to a skill has a cost of (bonus squared)x1000.
So it's 1'000 GP for a +1 item, 25'000 GP for +5 and 100'000 is +10
Ask your DM
You're off by a factor of ten. It's 100 gp for a +1, 2500 for +5, and 10000 for +10. Much more affordable!

Also, if your Cha is decent (shouldn't be, but maybe) then a Marshal dip for "Motivate Dexterity" will boost not only your Tumble, but also your other Cha based skills and your Initiative.

Gwendol

2012-01-31, 08:45 AM

Well, you got your skill synergy bonus, near-useless skill-related feat, stat-boosting item, etc. And sticking with classes that give a lot of skill points it is not unbeatable. On the other hand, you can augment your build with feats and magic items that allow for movement without breaking action economy. Travel devotion feat for example explicitly allows you to move your speed as a swift action, thus allowing for the full attack volley.

Cwymbran-San

2012-01-31, 08:50 AM

Travel devotion feat for example explicitly allows you to move your speed as a swift action, thus allowing for the full attack volley.
Where is that feat from? If it does as you write, i could pick it up next level (9) and would be yble to pull it off without any tumbling at all :smallbiggrin:

D@rK-SePHiRoTH-

2012-01-31, 08:51 AM

Where is that feat from? If it does as you write, i could pick it up next level (9) and would be yble to pull it off without any tumbling at all :smallbiggrin:
Complete Champion, but it only works 1 (consecutive) minute per day

sonofzeal

2012-01-31, 09:01 AM

There's also "Martial Study: Sudden Leap" from Tome of Battle. Works once every 5 minutes, effectively.

Factotum 3's "Brains over Brawn" would be another way to pump up Tumble massively, but three levels is a big investment. Factotum's hardly going to waste if your Int is high, but might not fit your concept.

gkathellar

2012-01-31, 09:17 AM

Actually, Oriental Adventures got an official 3.5 update in Dragon #318.

Which puts it in something of a contentious grey area... many DMs reject any Dragon material outright.

Luckily, the 10-foot step was not modified in the Dragon 318 official update. All the skill rules, IIRC, went unmodified.

Gwendol

2012-01-31, 09:19 AM

Complete Champion, but it only works 1 (consecutive) minute per day

For each time you take the feat. You can take the feat multiple times, gaining 1 minute of use each time.

Greenish

2012-01-31, 10:23 AM

For each time you take the feat. You can take the feat multiple times, gaining 1 minute of use each time.Or dip a class with TU to fuel it. Even with 8 Cha, it's an extra use, and Extra Turning gives two more (instead of just one from taking the actual feat again).

Cieyrin

2012-01-31, 11:17 AM

You're off by a factor of ten. It's 100 gp for a +1, 2500 for +5, and 10000 for +10. Much more affordable!

Also, if your Cha is decent (shouldn't be, but maybe) then a Marshal dip for "Motivate Dexterity" will boost not only your Tumble, but also your other Cha based skills and your Initiative.

Another good thing for high Cha is you can then UMD a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide) and permanently change your 5' steps to 10' steps. You also go against a more reasonable DC 20 to activate the thing, as opposed to DC 40, which OA assumes you're making possible through the prevalent PrC gained bonus to Balance, Jump and Tumble that a lot of their PrCs throw in, since everybody has to be Wuxia in OA and make like Jet Li.

Gavinfoxx

2012-01-31, 12:47 PM

Have you read the Swift Hunter handbook and the scout handbook?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872250/The_Scouts_Handbook

Between the two of them, they talk about several ways to activate your skirmish damage, including:

Move + Attack
Spring Attack
Shot on the Run
Flyby Attack
Travel Devotion
Charging
Greater Manyshot
DC 40 Tumble
Elocater 7
Grapple with Reach
Sparring Dummy of the Master

Good reading!

Curmudgeon

2012-01-31, 02:20 PM

So, as a ranger 6/Scout X, i attempt a tumble at the beginning of the round. Either i make my check and loose a full-attack volley of skirmish-enhanced arrows, or i do not make the check, take a standard move and fire off a skirmish-enhanced multishot.

Is that RAW?
Pretty much.
Move 10 feet as a “5-foot step,” while also performing a full-round action during the round (such as a full attack).
If you make your Tumble check you're tumbling 10'. If you fail, you're instead tumbling 5'. You can't undo that distance moved, and if you stop you've accomplished a 5' step and precluded other movement for the round (meaning you're not going to get skirmish damage). However, if you keep moving and only stop when you've gone at least 10' you're fine. This works because D&D rarely requires you to declare your actions. Moving 5' could be a 5' step, the start of a single move, or the beginning of a charge special full-round action. You only need to make the distinction when it changes the consequences under the rules (such as whether the movement provokes an attack of opportunity, for instance).

We know your Tumble check result is under 40 if you fail to make a 10' adjustment. But note that if the check is at least 25 (for unobstructed ground) you can be using Accelerated Tumbling to move at full speed rather than half speed. That's helpful if you want to grab Improved Skirmish, which gives you bonus damage when you move at least 20'. It's nice to avoid AoOs from unseen enemies when you move. :smallsmile:

Another good thing for high Cha is you can then UMD a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide) and permanently change your 5' steps to 10' steps. You also go against a more reasonable DC 20 to activate the thing, as opposed to DC 40 ...
That's actually DC 21, and it requires at minimum 224 consecutive successful checks to Emulate a Class Feature. (Many more checks will be required if your DM thinks you need to individually emulate every Monk 1 class feature to activate the Sparring Dummy.) You can't "take 10" on Use Magic Device, and a single rolled 1 if you fail will mean you need to begin the 224 check cycle (hourly checks 8 times a day for 28 days) all over. You can only retry once, ever. So basically, if your UMD modifier isn't at least +20, this will never work.

TuggyNE

2012-01-31, 05:13 PM

Novawurmson

2012-01-31, 05:29 PM

You can't "take 10" on Use Magic Device

Can't Warlocks take 10 on UMD?:smalltongue:

tyckspoon

2012-01-31, 07:11 PM

224? :smalleek: How in the world are that many checks required?

If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.

8 hours of training a day for 4 weeks. Assuming a seven-day week, that's 28x8= 224 hours. Assuming, as Curmudgeon mentioned, that "being a Monk" is something you can emulate as a single property, because "be a first level Monk" doesn't really fit neatly into any of the things UMD has listed; you can pretend to have Flurry of Blows or Fast Movement or whatever, but those aren't the same as having a Monk level.

Thiyr

2012-01-31, 07:28 PM

That's actually DC 21, and it requires at minimum 224 consecutive successful checks to Emulate a Class Feature. (Many more checks will be required if your DM thinks you need to individually emulate every Monk 1 class feature to activate the Sparring Dummy.) You can't "take 10" on Use Magic Device, and a single rolled 1 if you fail will mean you need to begin the 224 check cycle (hourly checks 8 times a day for 28 days) all over. You can only retry once, ever. So basically, if your UMD modifier isn't at least +20, this will never work.

Not quite. It's is, as per the UMD skill, DC 20, not 21. Rolling a 1 doesn't magically not apply the roll or some such, so you should still only need that +19 to hit the DC 20

Additionally, technically UMD wouldn't work, as was stated before, as "being a monk" isn't a class feature. Admittedly, I'd say that it wouldn't be unreasonable to let someone UMD that, but still.

Curmudgeon

2012-01-31, 08:00 PM

Not quite. It's is, as per the UMD skill, DC 20, not 21. Rolling a 1 doesn't magically not apply the roll or some such, so you should still only need that +19 to hit the DC 20

Additionally, technically UMD wouldn't work, as was stated before, as "being a monk" isn't a class feature. Admittedly, I'd say that it wouldn't be unreasonable to let someone UMD that, but still.
There's no "level 0" Monk; the minimum is level 1, so the DC is 21. The table is misleading, and (as always) text trumps table.
Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20.

Cieyrin

2012-01-31, 08:33 PM

There's no "level 0" Monk; the minimum is level 1, so the DC is 21. The table is misleading, and (as always) text trumps table.

Yeah, I forgot about the DC 21 check so you're treated as a monk 1. Though, it is incorrect that failing one check makes you reset, as the Sparring Dummy says:

If the training is ever interrupted for more than 24 hours, she must begin again.

So if you fail a check but not on a 1, you can keep trying till you get your 8 hours in that day, as long as it wasn't 24 hours between sessions.

Also the fact that you can stack less bonuses to get to DC 21 than it takes to get to 40, which you must admit is somewhat more achievable. There's also ways to help with that, as I illustrate from the previous time I discussed it. Take it away, past me! :smallbiggrin:

+0 Cha mod? that's generous, considering how many people dump Cha, so expect Cha 8 or 6. Plus, you risk rolling a 1 and not being able to work with it for a day.

I just thought of a neat little trick based on my previous post. Have 2 bards, Bard 7 and Bard 6. Bard 7 knows Combined Talent, Immediate Assistance, Eagle's Splendor, has Magic Sensitive, Melodic Casting and Song of the Heart as her feats, has a wand of Guidance. Bard 6 knows Harmonic Chorus and has Inspire Spellpower and Melodic Casting as two of his feats.

The Bard 6 Inspires Spellpower in the Bard 7 and casts Harmonic Chorus on her, which raises her CL to 9, 10 for divinations, which Combined Talent is. The Bard 7 uses her wand of Guidance on the prospective students, casts Eagle's Spendor and Combined Talent on him and then Inspires Competence into him. Combined Talent transfers 1 rank per CL, max 10 ranks, so the student gets 10 ranks of UMD, +4 Cha, +4 on the next UMD check. Assuming the worst kind of student (dwarf or half-orc with Cha 6, if just talking Core races), he has +14 UMD and a chance to reroll, due to Immediate Assistance. Talk about a tutoring session. :smallbiggrin:

I suppose the only additions I'd make to that is the Bard 6 also having Immediate Assistance so you get 2 chances to not screw up that check. Having a Cloak of Charisma on loan (they're bards, they're probably both wearing 'em) may save on the Eagle's Splendor, too. Plus Momento Magicas (1st) to regen spell slots in the hour between each check. Expensive? Yes. Could I see this as a lucrative business so that the 30k for the Sparring Dummy gets turned into profit in the end? Definitely. :smallwink:

Also, that Bard 7 should be a Bard 9 to be able to take Magic Sensitive, b/c my past self is apparently an idiot like that...

Curmudgeon

2012-01-31, 09:12 PM

So if you fail a check but not on a 1, you can keep trying till you get your 8 hours in that day, as long as it wasn't 24 hours between sessions.
That's not really important. What is important is that you need at least 224 rolls, and your whole training needs to start over if you roll a 1 and fail.
Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can’t try to activate that item again for 24 hours.
If the training is ever interrupted for more than 24 hours, she must begin again. Your chances of not rolling a 1 in 224 rolls are only 0.0010235%. If you don't have a +20 UMD modifier, you'll fail.

Cieyrin

2012-01-31, 10:07 PM

That's not really important. What is important is that you need at least 224 rolls, and your whole training needs to start over if you roll a 1 and fail. Your chances of not rolling a 1 in 224 rolls are only 0.0010235%. If you don't have a +20 UMD modifier, you'll fail.

That's what Immediate Assistance is for, so you can reroll that 1 or failed check. It goes into effect before the 'You rolled a 1, you're done with the Dummy today' kicks in.

Curmudgeon

2012-01-31, 10:56 PM

That's what Immediate Assistance is for, so you can reroll that 1 or failed check. It goes into effect before the 'You rolled a 1, you're done with the Dummy today' kicks in.
So now you've cut the failure down to two consecutive rolled 1s, and your chance of success with one roll per hour is 57.08%. Since you're allowed to try twice in your lifetime the total success chance is 81.58%. That's decent, but the cost of having Bards working to help you for up to 8 weeks is pretty extravagant.

Cwymbran-San

2012-02-01, 02:36 AM

Ok, this is straying a bit too far into theorycrafting for my taste. I learned:

a) Travel Devotion will do the trick, even if it is only once per day

b) No need to waste skillpoints on tumble anymore, so at my next level i will redistribute some of those points

c) When i hit level 9 (should happen the coming session), i will be pressed to either take another level of ranger for more accuracy (via BAB+1) or a level of Cleric (i happen to have CHA 15, we roll all stats with 4D6, then pick three) to pull off the Travel Devotion trick more often.

If i chose Cleric, i would be forced to stick with Scout 2 or suffer XP penalties. If i chose Ranger, i would have my damage-tweaking trick only once a day. And we fight a lot. Really. It is an Eberron campaign, and we are the vanguard of a Valenar warband.
I think i will pick Cleric, have a Bless, CLW and other trinkets up the sleeve can only help.

Gwendol

2012-02-01, 02:53 AM

What will your other domain be then? I'm guessing Travel is one.

Cwymbran-San

2012-02-01, 02:55 AM

Animal sounds good, fluff-wise and abilities are nice. I like situational enhancements, and animal provides that. And fits a ranger quite nicely :smallsmile:

Gwendol

2012-02-01, 03:21 AM

Not Plant? Entangle is a very useful spell, and turn and rebuke plant creatures with that high CHA of yours can be a life-saver.

Cwymbran-San

2012-02-01, 04:14 AM

Oops, mashed up Devotion with domain. No, as second domaini Sun came to Mind.
First, because i find destroying low-level undead a nice way of clearing away mobile cover (aka zombies by the dozen just to soak up damage). Second because, well, i like the sun :smallbiggrin:

Cieyrin

2012-02-01, 12:32 PM

So now you've cut the failure down to two consecutive rolled 1s, and your chance of success with one roll per hour is 57.08%. Since you're allowed to try twice in your lifetime the total success chance is 81.58%. That's decent, but the cost of having Bards working to help you for up to 8 weeks is pretty extravagant.

Not saying it isn't going to be expensive but just buying the Dummy isn't exactly cheap, either. Plus the clause that says if you have a second pause in your month of training of more than 24 hours means you can never learn it says to me that if you're going to shenanigan it, you gotta do it right.

I should really clean my example up and just write it out as a business, as an enterprising bard with Leadership to grab the second Bard as a cohort and the followers as Experts practiced in therapy and as personal trainers and just call it a gym. :smallcool:

Curmudgeon

2012-02-01, 01:53 PM

Not saying it isn't going to be expensive but just buying the Dummy isn't exactly cheap, either.
So why not just get a magic item to boost your Use Magic Device checks? It's 10,000 gp for a +10 competence item, 22,500 gp for +15, and 40,000 gp if you're really hopeless and need +20. You can combine any of these with a masterwork tool for a +2 circumstance bonus; that's only 50 gp. Instead of the expensive of having Bards on retainer for 8 weeks and still having over 18% chance of lifetime failure, why not spend the money on items that will continue to benefit you in the future when you encounter other magic items?

Cieyrin

2012-02-01, 08:26 PM

So why not just get a magic item to boost your Use Magic Device checks? It's 10,000 gp for a +10 competence item, 22,500 gp for +15, and 40,000 gp if you're really hopeless and need +20. You can combine any of these with a masterwork tool for a +2 circumstance bonus; that's only 50 gp. Instead of the expensive of having Bards on retainer for 8 weeks and still having over 18% chance of lifetime failure, why not spend the money on items that will continue to benefit you in the future when you encounter other magic items?

Because a) some DMs frown on custom skill items and/or don't like Magic Marts and b) my method makes it so that the character who wants the training doesn't actually have to invest in UMD when the Bards can provide them with everything. I could probably boost it higher, too, since I was just using spells from Complete Mage. I also think that I don't need the second bard now, since Magic Sensitive gets her CL up high enough to maximize Combined Talent to let the prospective student use her 10 ranks of UMD.

Well, whatever. We both know its doable via either method and that's good enough. When I have the time to delve into the topic more, I'll write up something cogent, though that'll be a different thread. We're off the rails far enough as-is.

Metahuman1

2012-02-01, 08:49 PM

I'd advise dipping one level of Cleric and picking up a Domain with a useful bonus feat or trading it for a useful devotion feat such as animal, Knowledge, or Strength Devotion, and grabbing Travel Devotion with the other. Then buy a couple of Night Sticks for extra Turn Undead uses to burn on them.

Yes, you lose some skills, but one level won't hurt much. And you gain Swift Action Movement + Something else nice, meaning you can full attack and do Skirmish damage.

Oh, and just a tip, If you can Get Improved Skirmish form Complete Scoundrel, Power attack, a couple of Boosts on your too hit that are expendable, and Hanks bow form the online source for the stated out Items form the old D&D Cartoon, that will really make your Archer a credible threat.

Cwymbran-San

2012-02-02, 02:31 AM

Yeah, the Cleric-dip seems worth it, as i said. The option of casting 1st-lv divine spells, turning undead if need be and having two nice domain powers on top of the Travel devotion...all in one fell swoop :smalltongue:

Just to get this straight, i get TWO domains from cleric, but in order to get the Travel Devotion i must use a feat slot, correct? Or does an option exist to trade a domain power for a devotion that i have missed reading this (to me) new material?

Gwendol

2012-02-02, 03:26 AM

Yes, travel devotion is a feat. The domains (powers + spells) are powerful indeed and so you probably want to keep them. I don't know of exchanging a domain for a feat, in the rules, but you might just want to ask your DM about it.

absolmorph

2012-02-02, 03:26 AM

Cwymbran-San

2012-02-02, 03:37 AM

Where to find that rule? My DM would insist on proof. I
would need a closer look into the other devotions then, animal looks nice, but i will have to compare it to the domain powers before i make my decision.

absolmorph

2012-02-02, 05:13 AM

Cwymbran-San

2012-02-02, 05:16 AM

Thanks a lot. So now i am going to prepare for a last session of mediocrity (hopefully dinging lv9 on saturday) and kick ass afterwards :smalltongue:

Darrin

2012-02-02, 07:23 AM

If i chose Cleric, i would be forced to stick with Scout 2 or suffer XP penalties. If i chose Ranger, i would have my damage-tweaking trick only once a day. And we fight a lot. Really. It is an Eberron campaign, and we are the vanguard of a Valenar warband.
I think i will pick Cleric, have a Bless, CLW and other trinkets up the sleeve can only help.

If it's only a 1- or 2-level dip, Cloistered Cleric (UA variant) is preferred. You get three domains instead of two, and six skill points instead of two. I'm fuzzy on the religious preferences of the Valenar, but the preferred deity for dipping is generally Sehanine Moonbow, who has the Knowledge, Travel, and Elf domains. You can swap your domains for the Devotion version from Complete Champion. Knowledge Devotion is quite nifty, free action to make a Knowledge check, gain a bonus on attacks/damage. Elf Domain = gain Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat. Or she's also got Chaos and Good domains (and possibly Illusion and Moon, if you allow her access to her FR domains), if you're not into ranged stuff.

If you need an Eberron-only deity... Kol Korran and The Traveler have the Travel domain, but I'm not sure how that would work in Valenar.