So, about the phylactery...

[Trixie]

Ok, let's assume Redcloak raised Tsukiko question as a con to make Xykon gloss over the issue of 'new chain and handsome leather case' (seriously, couldn't he even discard the case? Also, what was the point of his praise of every scratch being replicated if it has completely new chain?) - that was nicely done. Though, I do wonder how Redcloak knew what new scratches O'Chul put on it. But...

In #656, Xykon mentions he put so many spells on it he forgot what half of them actually does. While we see Redcloak try to put some of them back into forgery, I doubt a grand total of 3 spells made by divine caster would even begun to approach what is on the real one. So...

Shouldn't Xykon be ale to tell pretty much immediately copy lacks a single trace of his magic, and begun to question why it is the case? Especially seeing the original phylactery is wondrous item, and I don't see a simple craftsman replicating that unless he was a potent spellcaster in his own right? :smallconfused:

[Zherog]

The only real way to tell would be a detect magic or similar spell, and one of the protective spells prevents detect magic from picking it up.

[Gift Jeraff]

, I do wonder how Redcloak knew what new scratches O'Chul put on it.Perhaps all the scratches are from before it became an important phylactery, so there might not be any new damage from O-Chul.

[SaintRidley]

Ok, let's assume Redcloak raised Tsukiko question as a con to make Xykon gloss over the issue of 'new chain and handsome leather case' (seriously, couldn't he even discard the case? Also, what was the point of his praise of every scratch being replicated if it has completely new chain?) - that was nicely done. Though, I do wonder how Redcloak knew what new scratches O'Chul put on it. But...

In #656, Xykon mentions he put so many spells on it he forgot what half of them actually does. While we see Redcloak try to put some of them back into forgery, I doubt a grand total of 3 spells made by divine caster would even begun to approach what is on the real one. So...

Shouldn't Xykon be ale to tell pretty much immediately copy lacks a single trace of his magic, and begun to question why it is the case? Especially seeing the original phylactery is wondrous item, and I don't see a simple craftsman replicating that unless he was a potent spellcaster in his own right? :smallconfused:


Just because we only see three spells does not mean that those are the only ones Redcloak put on. It's a cutaway from the scene so we don't have to get bored watching him cast a bunch of spells.

Seeing Greater Obscure Object, it's also very likely that a number of the spells Redcloak would put on there are to make the thing undetectable by magic. That's why they couldn't just use magic to find it in the first place - magic wouldn't tell you a damn thing about the phylactery because it was so well protected. So not pinging on the ol' magic radar won't be unusual - it'll be expected and anything Redcloak does to make it impossible to tell by magic will be functionally enough to fool Xykon.

Redcloak doesn't know what scratches O-Chul put on it. Neither does Xykon. So those are a moot point. New chain is to simply explain the chain being unbroken. The chain isn't the important part of the phylactery - the holy symbol itself is.

[NerfTW]

Also, what was the point of his praise of every scratch being replicated if it has completely new chain?) - that was nicely done. Though, I do wonder how Redcloak knew what new scratches O'Chul put on it. But...


O'chul couldn't scratch it. And the chain was broken when it was ripped off Redcloak's neck, remember? (you clearly see the broken chain in all those strips) The scratches were on the original phylactery. So he needed those replicated, or Xykon might realize it's not the same amulet.


In #656, Xykon mentions he put so many spells on it he forgot what half of them actually does. While we see Redcloak try to put some of them back into forgery, I doubt a grand total of 3 spells made by divine caster would even begun to approach what is on the real one. So...


That's not all the spells. Redcloak likely put most of them on between panels. We aren't going to get a complete rundown of every spell, and I don't think anyone would want to read THAT comic. We see him trail off, that implies that the scene continued for a while, not that he immediately walked into the room with Xykon.



Shouldn't Xykon be ale to tell pretty much immediately copy lacks a single trace of his magic, and begun to question why it is the case?

Should he? This is a home brew world, are there core rules that say a Lich can recognize a copy over the real one?

[luc258]

We still don't know Redcloak's plan with the phylactery. Considering that it's being set up for quite a few strips now I hope for something big and evil from Redcloak.

[Trixie]

The only real way to tell would be a detect magic or similar spell, and one of the protective spells prevents detect magic from picking it up.

Um, as far as I know, Obscure Object only protects from divination (scrying) magic, meaning it has no effect at all against simple Detect Magic, a cantrip for Xykon. Then, picking up the fact that all the auras on it have Moderate to Strong effects, not Overwhelming as expected from spells cast by Xykon, is pretty trivial.

Is there any spell that would block divinations cast by someone actually holding phylactery in hand? :smallconfused:


Just because we only see three spells does not mean that those are the only ones Redcloak put on. It's a cutaway from the scene so we don't have to get bored watching him cast a bunch of spells.

Ok, let's assume he perfectly recast them all (though, that raises a question if Redcloak prepared appropriate spells each day just in case - a big problem). Still that doesn't change the fact that Xykon cast spells, too, which raises the point if RC is able to replicate them all, and how he will go around the fact his buffs have considerably weaker auras than Xykon's. I doubt Xykon will buy explanation like 'only your spells were somehow dispelled, oh great one!'.


Seeing Greater Obscure Object, it's also very likely that a number of the spells Redcloak would put on there are to make the thing undetectable by magic. That's why they couldn't just use magic to find it in the first place - magic wouldn't tell you a damn thing about the phylactery because it was so well protected. So not pinging on the ol' magic radar won't be unusual - it'll be expected and anything Redcloak does to make it impossible to tell by magic will be functionally enough to fool Xykon.

Divination (scrying), yes. Does he have any means to block all other means of detection? Including usage of epic Spellcraft check to boost these means by Xykon? I don't think so, unless he actually cast a Miracle on it.


Redcloak doesn't know what scratches O-Chul put on it. Neither does Xykon. So those are a moot point.

Um, Xykon saw them, but OK, he might have forgotten what exactly these were after all that time. Still, new chain and case are plenty suspicious on their own.

[Zherog]

We don't know what greater obscure object protects against. Certainly, though, it protects against more than plain ol' obscure object.

A simply magic aura spell is enough to fool detect magic and its related spells. And if Redcloak has a "greater" version of obscure object, then there's no reason to think he doesn't also have a greater version of magic aura available.

[SaintRidley]

Greater Obscure Object is only one spell, Trixie. It's also, presumably, something more than bog standard Obscure Object as listed in the SRD. Just like Superior Resistance, which also doesn't exist in the SRD.

Redcloak had ten minutes from the time he killed Tsukiko to the time he showed Xykon the fake. He did not spend nine minutes and thirty seconds of that disintegrating a corpse. It's pretty obvious he used his time to add more than just the three spells to the item, and it's a no-brainer that he would use more than simply Greater Obscure Object as a magic-detection foil.

He doesn't have to perfectly recast any of the original protections. All he has to do is make the thing look the same to eyes and magic. Given the scratches, it looks the same to eyes. Now if he makes it so you can't tell anything by magic, he does the same job. That's all.

You're overthinking this.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

Ok, let's assume he perfectly recast them all (though, that raises a question if Redcloak prepared appropriate spells each day just in case - a big problem).

...

Redcloak is methodical & prepared to the point of compulsive, and undertaking a significant extended lie with a psychotic Lich. I don't find it even slightly out of character that he would prepare all of those spell every single day in case that was the day the real phylactery was found. There's no way in hell he'd let himself be caught out by not having them ready.

And besides, he's a very high level caster in a generally low-mid level place. Even with all those slots spoken for, he still has enough spare for it not affect him and to not seem suspicious that he's not using those slots.

[ORione]

He said he murdered Tsukiko ten minutes ago. That seems to be longer than my sense of time says it should be, so maybe there was some off-panel casting.

Alternatively:
:xykon: Red-eye, some of the spells aren't on my phylactery. What gives?
:redcloak: Really? I guess the elves must have managed to remove some before I retrieved it. Let's put them back on.

[Chronos]

It also wouldn't be hard for his spells to have an overwhelming magical aura, either. He's level 17, and it's not hard for a divine caster to get a +4 boost to their caster level temporarily (a Bead of Karma, which almost every mid-level divine caster tries to get, will be +4 by itself, plus there are other methods he might or might not have. That would raise his CL to 21, which is epic-level, and therefore overwhelming.

[Bulldog Psion]

I'd say it's a lot of off-panel casting, combined with the spells themselves preventing detailed magical analysis of the phylactery, with a side order of Xykon being too lazy/confident to check it out in more than a perfunctory manner anyway, if at all.

I think RC's probably going to get away with it. And given Xykon's total lack of an attention span, that isn't too surprising to me at least. :smallwink:

[Tanuki Tales]

Working under the framework that Xykon does notice or working under the framework that Xykon doesn't, do you think it will really matter in the end?

If Xykon is really the properly manipulated puppet Redcloak believes he is, it doesn't matter at all.

If he isn't, Xykon isn't going to tip his hand that early and would probably bank on the phylactery that Redcloak would present him with would be fake regardless.

[Blisstake]

Ok, let's assume Redcloak raised Tsukiko question as a con to make Xykon gloss over the issue of 'new chain and handsome leather case' (seriously, couldn't he even discard the case? Also, what was the point of his praise of every scratch being replicated if it has completely new chain?) - that was nicely done. Though, I do wonder how Redcloak knew what new scratches O'Chul put on it. But...

In #656, Xykon mentions he put so many spells on it he forgot what half of them actually does. While we see Redcloak try to put some of them back into forgery, I doubt a grand total of 3 spells made by divine caster would even begun to approach what is on the real one. So...

Shouldn't Xykon be ale to tell pretty much immediately copy lacks a single trace of his magic, and begun to question why it is the case? Especially seeing the original phylactery is wondrous item, and I don't see a simple craftsman replicating that unless he was a potent spellcaster in his own right? :smallconfused:

Okay, first off, he cast three spells before it cut to another scene. That doesn't mean he only cast 3 spells, it means he cast at least 3 spells.

Second, spells of divine and arcane origin detect the same way with things like Arcane Sight and Detect Magic, so he can't tell who put the defensive spells on it. That's assuming it doesn't have a spell that would block detection spells in the first place.

[NerfTW]

Okay, first off, he cast three spells before it cut to another scene. That doesn't mean he only cast 3 spells, it means he cast at least 3 spells.


Well, that and he didn't cast 3 spells anyways. He cast 3 and started to cast a fourth, with no indication of a fizzle in the next frame. So that alone should let the OP know that there were more than 3 spells cast.

[Fish]

Redcloak prepared those spells because he knew the fake was finished. Finding the real one on the same day was unplanned.

Whatever plan he had probably revolved around what to do with the fake. Adding the real one into the mix... he may be forced to improvise.

[psijac]

Option 1: RedCloak sucessfully decieves Xykon.
Option 2: RedCloak fails to decieve Xykon.
Option 3: RedCloak fails to decieve Xykon but Xykon lets RedCloak believe he has succeed.

Option 3: is most-likely Xykon has always been one step ahead of RedCloak. Xykon isn't under the illusion he has RedCloaks loyalty. He threatens or bullies RedCloak into getting what he wants. To completely trust RedCloak to give him back the amulet would be out of character for him

[irenicObserver]

I just want to ask what is the point of this discussion? To find a way to foreshadow the story, to prove RC's incompetence or just to show how bad a storyteller Rich is for leaving a plot hole for you to find and get annoyed enough to not enjoy the story anymore?

[olthar]

Option 3: is most-likely Xykon has always been one step ahead of RedCloak. Xykon isn't under the illusion he has RedCloaks loyalty.
SoD
I'm pretty sure that Xykon is always one step ahead of right-eye and is relatively sure of Redcloak's loyalty. The fact that redcloak was able to deceive him for some 30 odd years suggests that redcloak is actually a step or four ahead of Xykon and likely to stay there.

[darkelf]

I just want to ask what is the point of this discussion?
its the internet, its like it was MADE for wasting time in idle speculation.

[Tanuki Tales]

SoD
I'm pretty sure that Xykon is always one step ahead of right-eye and is relatively sure of Redcloak's loyalty. The fact that redcloak was able to deceive him for some 30 odd years suggests that redcloak is actually a step or four ahead of Xykon and likely to stay there.

What makes you say that?

Xykon knows that Redcloak won't backstab him any time soon because that would lead to Redcloak admitting that he betrayed and murdered his brother in cold blood for absolutely nothing.

But I think it's a stretch to assume that Xykon by default completely trusts Redcloak.

[theNater]

Um, as far as I know, Obscure Object only protects from divination (scrying) magic, meaning it has no effect at all against simple Detect Magic, a cantrip for Xykon. Then, picking up the fact that all the auras on it have Moderate to Strong effects, not Overwhelming as expected from spells cast by Xykon, is pretty trivial.
Does Xykon even have Detect Magic?

[Blisstake]

It's also Greater Obscure Object, which, to my knowledge, isn't actually a D&D spell. So maybe that blocks magic detection like detect magic, arcane sight, analyze dweomer, or the like, many which I doubt Xykon even has.

Not like it matters. The only really important thing is that he cast an arbitrarily large amount of protection spells on it.

[SerenaRaeyld]

Just a thought...

These are the strips (that immediately come to mind) in which Xykon informs us of the many abjurations upon the phylactery:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html


:xykon: "Yeah, it's gonna take more than a few whacks with a metal bar to scuff the finish, pally. There are so many abjuration spells protecting that thing, I've forgotten what half of them actually do. Maximized Lightning Bolt."

And here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html


:xykon: "Do you have any idea how hard it is going to be to find that?!? It has the best anti-detection spells we know on it!!! We're going to need to search for it BY HAND!"

If these are the only specific references to the protection spells upon the phylactery, then I'm not sure it's specifically spelled out that Xykon himself cast all, most, or even any of the protection spells in the first place. Unless there is some other reference I'm missing, it seems entirely possible that Xykon had Redcloak cast the protective spells upon the phylactery after turning the holy symbol into Xykon's soul-hidey-place.

In which case, it seems very possible that Redcloak would both know exactly which spells to cast upon the false phylactery (as he apparently has a much better memory than Xykon), and be able to cast them with identical power/aura to the original.

In this scenario, worst case, he might cast them too powerfully (given he's likely gained at least some levels since he last cast protective abjurations upon it); but that can be easily remedied with a "Not only does it come with a shiny [SHINY!] new chain and a swanky leather case, but I've upgraded all the protections on it to the latest that my levels can buy."

This is just one possibility...but a possibility nonetheless.

[B. Dandelion]

I propose that we may be looking at this backwards.

We are not shown Redcloak casting many spells on the fauxlactery as an indication he may miss some and blow his hand. Rather, we are shown him casting many spells as part of a ridiculously thorough and paranoid scheme to pass off a fake as the real thing when Xykon's only going to glance at it for a few seconds.

Right now I would say the single greatest reason we have to think Xykon will be suspicious is that we've already been shown it's a fake. But from Xykon's perspective, Redcloak is constantly with the phylactery and out away from Xykon's immediate supervision. He could have pulled a stunt like this at any time. If Xykon hasn't been in the habit of doing random "inspections" on it to make sure Redcloak wasn't up to something, there needs to be some kind of reason he would start doing it now or it would simply be out of character.

[Fish]

The protective spells serve another purpose. Anyone else who gets hold of it would take it for the real thing too. They'd waste hours breaking the enchantments without ever realizing it was a ringer. If it wasn't protected by magic it would make people suspicious.

Edit: who foresees an epic mixup in phylacteries as Redcloak realizes even he can't tell them apart? :)

[Shhalahr Windrider]

What makes you say that?

Xykon knows that Redcloak won't backstab him any time soon because that would lead to Redcloak admitting that he betrayed and murdered his brother in cold blood for absolutely nothing.
That is what Xykon knew thirty years ago. It is quite apparent, at least to the readers, that Redcloak has changed quite a bit since then. That Redcloak is willing to pull this stunt with the fake phylactery—to whatever end he may intend—is pretty ample demonstration that he is well on his way to getting over that particular psychological block.


But I think it's a stretch to assume that Xykon by default completely trusts Redcloak.
Oh, hell, no he doesn’t. Redcloak lost any trust Xykon had when he let O-Chul grab the phylactery to begin with. And Redcloak’s explanation for his new gung-ho attitude isn’t likely to really deflect any suspicion Xykon may have about it’s true source.

Will Xykon expect something is up with the phylactery, specifically? My gut instinct says, “No.” But he will certainly be keeping an annoyingly close eye on Redcloak from here on in.

[Fish]

Will Xykon expect something is up with the phylactery, specifically? My gut instinct says, “No.” But he will certainly be keeping an annoyingly close eye on Redcloak from here on in.
I halfway expect this to be a double bluff. Xykon didn't expect Redcloak to get the phylactery; to Xykon, this is out of character. If Redcloak has set this up as an elaborate trick so Xykon can "catch him" at it, it might appease Xykon's mistrust. "Ha! I knew you wouldn't change. Nice try. Okay, let's go do the Plan."

[KillianHawkeye]

I propose that we may be looking at this backwards.

We are not shown Redcloak casting many spells on the fauxlactery as an indication he may miss some and blow his hand. Rather, we are shown him casting many spells as part of a ridiculously thorough and paranoid scheme to pass off a fake as the real thing when Xykon's only going to glance at it for a few seconds.

Right now I would say the single greatest reason we have to think Xykon will be suspicious is that we've already been shown it's a fake. But from Xykon's perspective, Redcloak is constantly with the phylactery and out away from Xykon's immediate supervision. He could have pulled a stunt like this at any time. If Xykon hasn't been in the habit of doing random "inspections" on it to make sure Redcloak wasn't up to something, there needs to be some kind of reason he would start doing it now or it would simply be out of character.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Xykon hasn't bothered to carry his own phylactery around at any time during the entire strip. If he didn't already suspect Redcloak was capable of this kind of deception, there's no real reason for him to start suspecting it now.

[:-)]

Just a thought (ties in with SoD):When Xykon charmed or hipnotysed or whatever the MitD to eat RC if he crossed him he said <quote> and spit out that gold amulet he wears<unquote> so if RC keeps the real phylactery in his bag of holding when he's eaten MitD would spit out the wrong amulet, causing Xykon if destryed to respawn in a pocket dimension inside a stomach of an omnivore with evidently extremly good digesting acids...

[MesiDoomstalker]

This seems to be the most likely case if that happens. I have no doubt that RC will turn on Xykon before this is all over but if MitD actually has the chance to eat RC or not is not determined. I personally rather have RC have a much more (tragicly) heroic death than "eaten by loveable and recently revealed Monster Formerly in the Darkness."

[dps]

Xykon hasn't bothered to carry his own phylactery around at any time during the entire strip.

Carrying it around on his own person would kind of defeat the purpose of having it in the first place. For example, if he'd had it on him when Roy threw him into Durokan's Gate, he'd have been totally destroyed and the story would be over. The End (well, at least as far as Xykon is concerned).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just a thought (ties in with SoD):When Xykon charmed or hipnotysed or whatever the MitD to eat RC if he crossed him he said <quote> and spit out that gold amulet he wears<unquote> so if RC keeps the real phylactery in his bag of holding when he's eaten MitD would spit out the wrong amulet, causing Xykon if destryed to respawn in a pocket dimension inside a stomach of an omnivore with evidently extremly good digesting acids...

You are assuming that Xykon is going to allow RC to go back to wearing his phylactery. We will see in the next strip, but I don't think Xykon trusts RC to carry it anymore, and I'm sure he will insist in hiding it away in a secure place like other lichs do.

Edit: Thinking about it, I would not be surprised if what he has been doing while he was gone was precisely preparing a safe place for his phylactery (including a visit to the Oracle to outright ask him "where is the safest place for my Phylactery?", possibly after "where is it?" failed to work - not that he got the chance)

Indeed, I think the whole point of RC's fakelactery is indeed to retain control of the real one, since he too can see he is no longer going to be allowed to wear it around his neck.

Grey Wolf

[Michaeler]

Edit: who foresees an epic mixup in phylacteries as Redcloak realizes even he can't tell them apart? :)

I figured that was why the real one is being kept on a broken chain. Still, if one chain can be broken so can two.

[Dark Matter]

Key question: How many "protect object" spells does Xykon know? He's a Sorcerer, he can't just shift his spell's know around. At a guess the answer is, "Xykon knows zero 'protect object' spells".

It may be that Redcloak was the one who cast all of the "protect phylactery" spells in the first place.

[Ancalagon]

Xykon might have gotten some nifty arcance scrolls and used those to put some nifty arcane protections and whatnot on the phylactery.

[Mightymosy]

Maybe I'm completely off here, but I noticed something regarding the phylactery:
There are now 4 persons who can tell by looking at the phylactery that it isn't the original:
Varsuvius
O-Chul
Redcloak
Xykon

Because V wrote a note for Xykon on its backside. And this is, as far as I remember, only known to V, O-Chul and Xykon.

Unless that's not how the Spell "Explosive Runes" works. I have no idea of D&D at all.

If it does, though, lots of story potential :-)
Xykon can notice it while placing it inside his astral castle, but pretending to Redcloak that he didn't notice anything, until he finds out more.

V or O-Chul could see it during their next fight, or if the fake Phylactery gets into their hands some other way (like Tarquins team somehow snatching it, then leaving it to the OotS...

Like I said, plenty of possibilities give the spell works as I think it works.

[Math_Mage]

Maybe I'm completely off here, but I noticed something regarding the phylactery:
There are now 4 persons who can tell by looking at the phylactery that it isn't the original:
Varsuvius
O-Chul
Redcloak
Xykon

Because V wrote a note for Xykon on its backside. And this is, as far as I remember, only known to V, O-Chul and Xykon.

Unless that's not how the Spell "Explosive Runes" works. I have no idea of D&D at all.

If it does, though, lots of story potential :-)
Xykon can notice it while placing it inside his astral castle, but pretending to Redcloak that he didn't notice anything, until he finds out more.

V or O-Chul could see it during their next fight, or if the fake Phylactery gets into their hands some other way (like Tarquins team somehow snatching it, then leaving it to the OotS...

Like I said, plenty of possibilities give the spell works as I think it works.


The rune does not stick around once it has been discharged. However, both O-Chul's bashing and V's spell may have altered the scratch pattern.

[WowWeird]

You are assuming that Xykon is going to allow RC to go back to wearing his phylactery. We will see in the next strip, but I don't think Xykon trusts RC to carry it anymore, and I'm sure he will insist in hiding it away in a secure place like other lichs do.

Edit: Thinking about it, I would not be surprised if what he has been doing while he was gone was precisely preparing a safe place for his phylactery (including a visit to the Oracle to outright ask him "where is the safest place for my Phylactery?", possibly after "where is it?" failed to work - not that he got the chance)

Indeed, I think the whole point of RC's fakelactery is indeed to retain control of the real one, since he too can see he is no longer going to be allowed to wear it around his neck.

Grey Wolf

Ladies and gentlemen, our first true future psychic! :smalltongue:

[EnragedFilia]

There was also someone in the "death pool" thread who bet on a demon roach. I guess maybe internet prescience is internet contagious?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

The rune does not stick around once it has been discharged. However, both O-Chul's bashing and V's spell may have altered the scratch pattern.

Xykon says, “Yeah, it’s gonna take more than a few whacks with a metal bar to scuff the finish, pally,” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) which suggests that at some point, one of the protections placed on the factory made it scratch resistant. Assuming, of course, that Xykon is not using hyperbole. The scratches Redcloak refers to would have all been received before those particular protections were in place.

In any case, Xykon never got a chance to check for new scratches after the Darth V incident. And if the protections are really as good as he makes them out to be, I don’t think he would expect even explosive runes, a measly 3rd-level spell, to do any visible damage to the finish. So even the absence of new scratches would not really be any sort of red flag.

Furthermore, Redcloak was always the keeper of the phylactery. It is not likely Xykon is intimately familiar with the old scratch patterns anyway. The comment about scratches is merely a sign of Redcloak’s fastidiousness and the care with which he handled the forgery, not foreshadowing.