Can you deduce the dire template from the current dire animals?

[danzibr]

Title says it all. I'm interested in making various other dire animals (in particular, a homebrew cheopard=cheetah+leopard), and... well, that's it. I've seen various attempts online, but I haven't a clue if there is a best version, or even if such a thing exists.

[Jeraa]

There is no (official) dire template. The dire animals were made individually, not based off some template.

[danzibr]

There is no (official} dire template. The dire animals were made individually, not based off some template.
Yeah... but the creators may have actually used a template is what I'm getting at.

[Kumori]

Yeah... but the creators may have actually used a template is what I'm getting at.

That's pretty much what Jeraa is saying they didn't do, and I'm inclined to agree. Each Dire Animal is different from it's base creature in ways that are varied from how the others are.

[Jeraa]

Ape: LArge, 4d8 hitdice, Str 21, +3 natural armor, 2 claws 1d6, bite 1d6, CR 2
Dire Ape: large, 5d8 hit dice, Str 22, +4 natural armor, 2 claws 1d6, bite 1d8 CR 3
Difference: +1 hit dice, +1 strength, +1 natural armor, bite damage +1 step, +1 CR

Brown Bear: large, 6d8 hitdice, Str 27, +5 natural armor, 2 claws 1d8, bite 2d6, CR 4
Dire Bear: large, 12d8 hitdice, Str 31, +7 natural armor, 2 claws 2d4, bite 2d8, CR 7
Difference: +6 hit dice, +4 strength, +2 natural armor, claw damage different, bite damage different, +3 CR

Both creatures the same size, yet one has double the hit dice as a dire animal, while the other only gains 1. Dire apes bite damage increases by i step (1d6-1d8), while the dire bears bite damage, while greater then a brown bears, didn't increase by 1 step (that would be 3d6 damage, not 2d8). The dire bears claw damage isn't greater then a brown bears, it just uses different dice. No template does that. The strength gain and natural armor increase is different as well.

Tiger: large, 6d8 hit dice, Str 23, +3 natural armor, 2 claws 1d8, bite 2d6, CR 4
Dire Tiger: large, 16d8 hit dice, Str 27, +6 natural armor, 2 claws 2d4, bite 2d6, CR 8
Difference: +10 hit dice, +4 strength, +3 natural armor, +4 CR

If they did use a template, its effects can't be based on the starting creatures size, as all of the above creatures are large, yet gain different benefits. It can't be based on creature hit dice, as both brown bears and tigers have 6d8 hit dice, yet the dire versions gain different benefits. The templates effects also can't be based on CR, as a tiger and brown bear have the same CR, yet would gain different benefits.

If some template was used, it apparently has random effects, as it doesn't change stats in a consistent matter. And whatever template involved didn't use the creatures size, hit dice, or CR to determine the abilities changed.

So no, the creators did not use any sort of template.

[Gavinfoxx]

I actually did this at some point... hold on. I might have it...

Nooope. That was me trying to figure out the legendary animal template.

Anyway, here is what I derived for the template "Legendary Animal", to be applied to a basic animal:


Size and Type stays the same
Increase Hit Dice by 10, adding appropriate feats and skills
Increase Natural Weapon Damage by 1 die size, and Secondary Damage forms by 1 die size, with bites doing a minimum of 1d8 and claws doing a minimum of 1d6
Increase all Movement Speeds by 10'
Put a 10 point increase in two of the physical stats, and a 5 point increase in the remaining physical stat
Increase the Wisdom by 2
Increase the Charisma by 4
Increase Damage from Venom or Poison by 1 die size
Increase Racial Skill bonus by 4
Increase Natural Armor by 3
Increase CR by 5

[Manateee]

If you can get a Dire Tortoise and Dire Rat from a generalized template, my hat is off to you.

But it's way more likely that they just threw together some appropriate stats. Way easier than reverse engineering some bizarre template, as well.

[gkathellar]

If you're really desperate, just use the Horrid template and add some Hit Dice.

[Mikeavelli]

They're just generic thug creatures with animal abilities. You don't need to come up with individualized stats for a different creature, just use the stats of whatever CR-appropriate dire animal you want the party to be fighting, change the (ex) abilities to match whatever animal type it is (cats get pounce and rake, wolves get trip, etc.) - and tell them it's a dire cheopard

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

The 'monks are the best class' creators say they didn't have one. But as usual, that's a lie.

Although not completely consistent (like the NPC creatures they make), there are clearly changes you can extrapolate from the dire creatures. As usual I have done this before and posted one version of it in my llama thread.

Don't trust the closemindedness aroun

[Kumori]

Jeraa and I aren't saying you can't find similarities between the various examples of Dire Creatures in the Monster Manual, just that there isn't a single end all be all template that can be added which uniformly changes the base creature's stats for any animal to the exact stats given for the Dire version. It shouldn't be too difficult to make a template of your own that emulates a lot of the changes that are made, but you'll never get one which can make all the Dire creatures perfectly.

[NNescio]

Nitpick: Induce. (http://www.grammarist.com/usage/deduction-induction/)

[gorfnab]

Here (http://www.necromancergames.com/pdf/ToHDire.pdf) is a third party attempt at a Dire template (page 12 for the template, pages 1 through 11 have some neat dire animals too)

[Coidzor]

Here (http://www.necromancergames.com/pdf/ToHDire.pdf) is a third party attempt at a Dire template (page 12 for the template, pages 1 through 11 have some neat dire animals too)

What do people think of this one anyway?

I don't think I ever got a straight answer...

[Kumori]

Nitpick: Induce. (http://www.grammarist.com/usage/deduction-induction/)

I actually did not know that, thank you!

[Babale]

The Dire Rat is a Small creature. The Dire Bat is a Large creature. Rat was originally Tiny. Bat was originally Diminutive. How would that make sense as a template, PlzBreakMyCmpAn?

[Manateee]

What do people think of this one anyway?

I don't think I ever got a straight answer...
That looks like it's pretty close to a generalized template. (Beside the saves. I'd keep those normal for animals, tbh.) It doesn't hit everything perfectly, but it fits pretty well into the ballpark.

[danzibr]

Nitpick: Induce. (http://www.grammarist.com/usage/deduction-induction/)
Ahh I feel stupid now... or rather, I feel smarter!

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

The Dire Rat is a Small creature. The Dire Bat is a Large creature. Rat was originally Tiny. Bat was originally Diminutive. How would that make sense as a template, PlzBreakMyCmpAn?One of the most troubling examples. As I mentioned before, I don't believe the designers were consistent. However if that is too far a field for you to believe, there could always be options of something like "minimum size: small" followed by "if increased size by 0 then ... or if increased size by 2 then ..."

My induction was the most conservative and underpowered happy medium (I specifically remember a problem with the natural armor amounts). I suppose if people care enough I can formalize out that latter possibility that I shied away from even besides the