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Kurald Galain
2012-01-31, 01:24 PM
Welcome to the latest incarnation of the Class and Level Geekery thread! Here, we are discussing what the possible stats are for each of the six OOTS members. Below is an estimate of the characters' stats; this was first kept by Runolfr, Wrecan, and Chrismith. I will update this post as the discussion continues and as subsequent strips reveal more information about OOTS; RMS Oceanic will update the post with all the other characters.

Please note that we all know that Rich isn't necessarily being careful about the rules. Funny always trumps rules. Thus, there will always be some dispute as to some of the stats as some jokes are used as evidence as abilities and other strips are used as evidence of funny.

Please read the thread rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229756) by Mark Hall.


3E source books used for the comic:

Player's Handbook 1 and Dungeon Master's Guide 1
Book of Vile Darkness (certain monsters, Boost Spell Resistance)
Complete Adventurer (ninjas)
Complete Arcane (warlocks, Tsukiko's and Zz'dtri's spells)
Dungeonscape (Thog, the acid-breathing shark; note that The Giant co-wrote this book)
Expanded Psionics Handbook (blue, mindblade)
Fiend Folio (certain monsters)
Monster Manual (mentioned by Celia and Vaarsuvius)
Monster Manual 2 (certain monsters)
Spell Compendium (numerous spells that aren't from the PHB1)
uncertain: Epic Level Handbook (a feat and spell from this book are mentioned, but most epic characters or spells in the comic don't follow the rules from this book)


In which comic do the characters demonstrate having leveled?
{table]Level|:roy:|:belkar:|:durkon:|:elan:|:haley:|:vaar suvius:
11|12|12|12|12|12|12
12|124, 665|125|124|124|124|124
13|485, -|???|556|393|512|397
14|-|???|???|647|???|627
15|-|???|859|-|615|716
16|-|748|-|-|-|-[/table]


:roy: Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html), Human Male (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html) Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) 12+
Str 24+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html) (Unmodified strength 20+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0004.html)) *)
Int 14-17 (“very good"*, but V's Int is "higher"*)
Wis 14+ (“very good"*)
Cha 12+ (“decent*), modifier less than Elan's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html).
Age: 29 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html).
Feats (13): Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0102.html), Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html), Endurance (sleeps in armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html) without getting fatigued).
Skills (60+): Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html), Ride 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html), Spellcraft (OOPC), No Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html) or Sense Motive.
Items: Magical (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html) breastplate (only armor that is medium weight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0005.html) and rigid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0809.html); it has to be medium for Roy to be faster than Durkon), Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html), Boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html), +5 Greatsword (with other unspecified bonuses) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html), oil of shillelagh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), potion of delay poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), Bag of Tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), Partial list of Xykon's spells, feats and magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Belt of Giant Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html), Unnamed Book, Sextant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html)

:belkar: Belkar Bitterleaf
Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), Halfling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html) Male (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0140.html) Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0022.html) 11+*/Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0132.html) 1+* (character level =16 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0748.html)) Not higher than 16 since he's deafened by Durkon's Holy Word.
Str 14-18 ("jump... exceeded movement..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html)*, can't carry Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html))
Dex 15+ (to use Two-Weapon Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html))
Wis <=9 ("I have an ... ability score penalty" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) in Profession skill checks)
Cha <=10 (V includes him in those w/out any Cha (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html))
Feats (11): Craft Disturbing Mental Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html), EnduranceB, Greater Two-Weapon FightingB, Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html), Improved Two-Weapon FightingB, TrackB (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0022.html), Power Attack, Two-Weapon FightingB, Two-Weapon Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html)...
Skills (89): Balance 5+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0279.html), Climb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html), Craft: Trapmaking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html), Handle Animal 0, Hide (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html) (“a good Hide skill”) (+4), Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html) (sufficient to intimidate cowardly eye of fear and flame), Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0019.html), Listen 0 (+2), Move Silently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html) (“High”) (+2), Profession (gourmet chef) 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), Search 0, Sense Motive 0, Speak languageB (halfling), Spot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0119.html) 0, Survival (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html) 0.
Abilities: +1 saves, +1 thrown weapons, +2 v fear, Animal companion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html), Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html), Fast movement, Favored enemy x3, Rage, Small size, Swift tracker, Wild empathy, Woodland stride
Items: Chef's Hat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), Cloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html), 3 or more small magical daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html), red chalk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html), Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), Mama Bitterleaf's Secret +2 Circumstance Bonus Ingredient (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), Ring of Jumpng +20 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), stilts, Sapphire guard disguise (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html), string (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html), Dune (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html), Bucket and Spade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/MrScruffy.png Mr. Scruffy
True neutral male Tiny Animal (cat) animal companion
Str 4+
Dex 16+
Con 10
Int 2
Wis 12
Cha 7
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon FinesseB
Skills (6+): Listen 2, Spot 2...
Abilities: Animal companion (2+ HD bonus, 2 natural armor bonus, 2+ bonus tricks, Link, and Evasion, possibly more depending on number of Belkar's levels of ranger), Cat Skills (+4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Move Silently checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Jump checks. Use Dexterity modifier instead of Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks. In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8).
Items: string.

:durkon: Durkon Thundershield
Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html), Dwarf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html) male (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html) Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html) 15 (required to deafen Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html)).
Str 14-19 (can carry Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html), can't carry Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html))
Dex <10 (in a SSDT, says he has a Dex penalty)
Con ~12 (racial)
Wis 17+ (required to cast 7th-level spells); also 24+ if he's level 13 (required to cast three 7th-level spells per day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html)), and <24 if he's level 15 (required to lose his best 7th-level spell to Enervation).
Cha <10 ("low Charisma modifier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)" and V includes him in those w/out any Cha (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html))
Age: 55 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html)+.
Feats (5): Extend Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0839.html), Extra Turning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), Weapon Proficiency: Warhammer.
*
Skills (31+): Knowledge: Religion (not maxxed) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html), Listen 0 (OOPC), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Speak language: dwarf (racial) and giant (SSDT), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html).
Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), Turn Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), Good domain (required to cast Holy Smite (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html)).
Items: Candles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html), bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), full plate armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html), deck of cards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html), holy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html), Amulet of Natural Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), heirloom shield and warhammer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0237.html), spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html), religious vestments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html), scroll of Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), belt pouch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html), Kingdom of Blood papers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html), flask of liquor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), 10,000+ gp of diamond dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html), Flying Carpet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html).
Spells: Standard cleric list, plus domain spells as listed above, plus Bless Beer (WXP), Call Lightning (DCF), Cat's Grace (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0027.html), Control Winds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html), Mass Resist Energy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html), Thor's Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html), and unfinished Mass Death Ward (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html). Might of Thor is assumed to be the standard cleric spell Righteous Might.

:elan: Elan
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html), Human male Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) 13 (required to get these spells at level-up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)) / Dashing Swordsman (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html).
Str <19 (can't carry Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html), and the same as Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=821955&postcount=47), forum).
Dex 13-17 (required for Dodge, and to get a four on Move Silently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html)).
Int <10 (too low to cast cantrips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html), but higher than Thog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html); Belkar states Elan's int is 2, in NCPB).
Wis <10 (not even a smidgen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html)).
Cha 22+ (20 required for 5th level spells at level 13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), and +2 from this belt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html)).
Age: 21+ (WXP).
Feats (6): Dodge, Mobility (both prerequisite for Spring Attack), Spring Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html), Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html).
Skills (85+): Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), Hide (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html), Listen (higher than Sir Francois, OOPC), Move Silently <3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html), Perform: sing 12+ (required for Inspire Greatness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0593.html)), Perform: string instruments 9+ (required for Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0238.html)), Perform: kazoo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html), Ride 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0026.html).
Abilities: Bard class abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), charismatic strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html), glass damage immunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html).
Items: Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html) rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html), Banjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html), Boots of Elvenkind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), kazoo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html), jam, lantern, pingpong bat, roller skate, squirrel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html), yoyo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0278.html), dashing outfit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html), silver-colored (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html) +3 keen rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html), lute (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html), Belt of Charisma +2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), treasure chest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html), drawing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html), The Stick the Order was named after (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0696.html), castanets (SSDT), no armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html). Elan still has his old equipment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8484548&postcount=12) (forum).
Spells: Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html), Disguise Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Lesser Confusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0721.html), Major Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html), Mass Cure Light Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Mending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html), Neutralize Poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html), Silent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0019.html), Summon Plot Exposition (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html), not Cure Critical Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Identify (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html), or Break Enchantment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html).

:haley: Haley Starshine
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html), Human female Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) 15+ (required for Improved Precise Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html)).
Str 13-19 (high enough to drag the cart (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html), but can't carry Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html)).
Con 9+ (higher than Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html)).
Dex 20-21 (modifier of +5, forum).
Int 12+ (received bonus languages (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0247.html)).
Cha 12-19 (part of all party members with any charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html); and with maxed out Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0412.html), for Hide to be her best skill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html), her cha mod has to be less than her dex mod).
Age: About 25 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12254291&postcount=24) (forum; was 24 here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), and that was (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html) over a (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0260.html) year ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html)).
Feats (9+): Dodge (SSDT), Improved Precise Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html), Manyshot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html), Point Blank Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), Precise Shot (prerequisite for Improved Precise Shot), Ranged Pin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Ranged Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html), Rapid Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html).
Skills (180+): Appraise (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html), Bluff 18 (maxed out) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0412.html), Disable Device (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html), Forgery (OOPC), Hide 18 (best skill) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html), Open Lock 15, Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Search (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0036.html) not maxxed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html), Sense Motive 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0108.html), Use Magic Device (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html), Use Rope 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html).
Abilities: Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0019.html), Improved uncanny dodge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html), Sneak attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0018.html), Trapfinding (DCF), Trap sense (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0098.html), Uncanny dodge; two special rogue abilities, both spent on a feat.
Items: 8 Bags of Holding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), a lot of clothes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html), bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), +5 longbow of Icy Burst (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html), Crystal's +4 blade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html), magic leather armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), dyed Boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) of Speed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11095086&postcount=2) (forum), at least 200,000 gp in cash (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html), trowel, metal detector (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0692.html), 4+ quivers of green arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html) including silver and cold iron (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), three potions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html) (since Belkar took one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html)), thief's tools (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html).

:vaarsuvius: Vaarsuvius
True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11664984#post11664984) (forum), Elf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html) ambiguously gendered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html) Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html): Evoker (DCF) 15+ (required to cast Power Word: Stun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html)).
Str 5-9 (can carry Yukyuk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), and strength penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html)).
Dex <12 (no real attack bonus on rays, forum).
Con 8-12 (required to have enough HP to survive the fight against Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html); also, lacks a decent con, forum; and lower than Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html)).
Int 23 (required to cast four 6th-level spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) with a base int of 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html) increased to 19 at level 12).
Wis 10-11 (moderate, forum).
Cha 6-9 (can return as a ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0163.html), and poor charisma, forum).
Age: 130+ (WXP).
Feats (11+): Alertness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html), Empower Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html), Extend Spell (SSDT), Maximize Spell (SSDT), Quicken Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html), Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), not Silent Spell (forum), not Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html).
Skills (108+): Appraise +3 (from familiar), Concentrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html), Craft: Alchemy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0098.html), Decipher Script (SSDT), Knowledge: Arcana, Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), Spot 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html), Search 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html), Speak Language: elf (racial), raven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html), not draconic (SSDT), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0181.html).
Abilities: Elf racial abilities, familiar: Blackwing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html), share spells with familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html), scry on familiar, barred schools: Conjuration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) and Necromancy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11686399&postcount=36) (forum; also by elimination).
Items: Headband of Intellect +4 (required to cast four 6th-level spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) with a base int of 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html) at level 11), Ring of Wizardry III or IV (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0182.html), two small gemstones (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html), many scrolls and spellbooks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0173.html), Finding Plot Holes for Dummies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html), twelve more books (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html), jar of diamond dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), two potions (SSDT), apricot-scented face gel (SSDT).
Spells: Arcane Eye (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html), Banishment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html), Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html), Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html), Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit, Bugsby's Flicking Finger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Bugsby's Grasping Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html), Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html), Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html), Cone of Cold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0041.html), Crushing Despair (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html), Detect Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0116.html), Dimensional Anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html), Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), Dominate Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0005.html), Explosive Runes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0092.html), Feather Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0240.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html), Fire Trap (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html), Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0839.html), Greater Invisibility (SSDT), Gust of Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html), Haste (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html), Heroism (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html), Hold Monster (SSDT), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Hold Portal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html), Identify (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html), discount Invisibility Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0088.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Mass Bear's Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html). Mass Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html), Mass Enlarge Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html), Overland Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html), Owl's Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), Passwall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0857.html), Polymorph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html), Power Word Blind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html), Power Word Stun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html), Prismatic Spray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), Protection from Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0240.html), Resilient Sphere (SSDT), Scorching Ray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), See Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html), Silent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html), Sleep (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Stinking Cloud (DCF), Stoneskin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html), Stone to Flesh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html), True Seeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html), Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html), Vaarsuvius' Greater Animal Messenger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0563.html), Vampiric Touch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), Veil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html), at least one sonic spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Blackwing.png Blackwing (Common name (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html))
Raven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) male, 15+ HD (same as Vaarsuvius).
Str 1 (racial).
Dex 15 (racial).
Con 10 (racial).
Int 13+ (familiar, based on Vaarsuvius's level).
Wis 14 (racial).
Cha 6 (racial).
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +7, Use Magic Device (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html), can use Vaarsuvius's skill ranks.
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html), low-light vision (both racial abilities); natural armor +8, improved evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html), empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with birds, spell resistance 18 (all familiar abilities).
Items: Bauble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), sombrero, fake beard and mustache (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), wand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html).

RMS Oceanic
2012-01-31, 01:28 PM
Team Evil

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/PimpedXykon.png Xykon, pseudonym (SOD)
Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13027771&postcount=5) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html), Human male lich (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html), Sorcerer 21+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)
Con n/a (undead).
Int ~15 (no evidence, age and lichdom).
Wis ~15 (no evidence, age and lichdom).
Cha 28+ (casts seven 9th-level spells in one combat, SOD).
Age: 111+ (WXP).
Feats (13+): Maximize Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Epic Spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), at least one craft feat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html).
Skills (46+): Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html), Concentration (required to cast while grappled (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html)), Spellcraft 24+, Knowledge: Arcana 24+ (required for Epic Spellcasting), Reverse Psychology 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html), Speak Language: Draconic (NCPB); +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
Abilities: Fear aura, paralyzing touch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), turn resistance, damage reduction (SOD), immunity to cold, electricity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks (all lich abilities).
Items: Soul gem (SOD), Serini's diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html), Widescreen crystal ball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html), Teevo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html), crown (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) that radiates evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html), Dorukan's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) headband (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html), unspecified item that gives fire immunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Ring of Protection that gives deflection bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html).
Spells: Animate Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Animate Dead Animal (SOD), Cloister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), Cloudkill (SOD), Contingency (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Energy Drain (SOD), Epic Mage Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Finger of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html), Ghostform (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html), Greater Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html), Greater Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Invisibility (SOD), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Mass Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Meteor Swarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (SOD), Overland Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), Ray of Frost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html), Shatter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Soul Bind (SOD), Stoneskin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), Superb Dispelling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Symbol of Insanity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), Symbol of Pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html), Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html), unspecified fire spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), unspecified spell that enables travel to the Astral Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Redcloak.png Redcloak, pseudonym (SOD)
Lawful (required for Law domain) Evil (SOD), Goblin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html) male, Cleric (SOD) 17 (Recently reached level 9 spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html)).
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial; ).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 20+ (based on saving throw difficulty class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)).
Cha 12+ (required to use Rebuke Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) four times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) per day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)).
Age: 55+ (WXP), does not age physically (SOD).
Feats (5+): Craft Wondrous Item (Xykon's phylactery in SOD), Extend Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html).
Skills (36+): Diplomacy (SOD), Knowledge: Chemistry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html). Does not speak Draconic (NCPB).
Abilities: Goblin racial abilities, Rebuke Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) (and Command Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html)), Destruction domain (required to cast Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html)) and Law domain (required to cast Hold Monster, SOD).
Items: The Crimson Mantle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html), backup unholy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html), Book of Vile Darkness, Fiend Folio, Monster Manual II (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html), eye patch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html), spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html), Xykon's Phylactery (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html), Arcane half of the Snarl Ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html), Ring that protects from Negative Levels (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html)
Spells: Standard cleric list, plus domain spells as listed above, plus Unseal, Greater Obscure Object, Superior Resistance, Hardening (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html)

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Tsukiko.png Tsukiko (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html))
Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html), Human female, Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html): Necromancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11637535) (forum) 3+ / Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html) 3+ (required for Mystic Theurge) / Mystic Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) 6+, and two more levels of either Wizard or Mystic Theurge (required to cast 6th-level wizard spells).
Int 16+ (required to cast Create Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) as a wizard).
Wis 15+ (required to cast Flame Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html) as a cleric).
Feats (6+): Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Quicken Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html).
Skills (42+): Knowledge: Arcana 6+, Knowledge: Religion 6+ (required for Mystic Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html)).
Abilities: Rebuke Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html), two unknown domains, barred school (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11637535) (forum): Abjuration (by elimination).
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature), unholy symbol (required to cast Flame Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html)), Xykon plushie (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Xykon portrait, various books and scrolls, quill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html).
Spells: Standard Cleric List plus Cold Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html), Create Undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html), Dominate Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html), Electric Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html), Fire Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html), Lesser Acid Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Mind Fog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), Shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html), Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html) (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11664910)).

:mitd: Monster In The Darkness
Please see this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231404) for details.



The Linear Guild

:nale: Nale
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), Human male, Fighter / Rogue 2+ (required for Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)) / Sorcerer 8+ (required to cast Dimension Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html)); Total Level 16 (Hit by Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html)).
Str <19 (same as Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=821955), forum).
Dex 13-17 (same as Elan).
Con ~10 (same as Elan).
Int 10+ (higher than Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11883778&postcount=198), forum).
Cha 15+ (required to cast Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html)).
Age: 22+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html) (same as Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)).
Skills: Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html).
Abilities: Rogue class abilities.
Items: Longsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), wand of Enervation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html).
Spells: Charm Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html), Dimension Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html), Unspecified Invisibility Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html).

:sabine: Sabine
Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html), Succubus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) female, Racial hit dice 6 / Level adjustment 6 / Rogue (NCPB) 3+ (at least as high as her personal rival (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html) Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html)).
Dex ~13 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~13 (no evidence, racial).
Int 9+ (racial minimum, and higher than Thog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html)).
Wis ~14 (no evidence, racial).
Cha ~26 (no evidence, racial).
Age: 2000+ (WXP).
Feats (5+):
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), change shape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), energy drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), charm monster, detect good, detect thoughts, ethereal jaunt, suggestion, greater teleport: self plus 50 pounds of objects (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html), summon demon, damage reduction 10 / cold iron or good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), darkvision, electricity and poison immunity, acid cold and fire resistance, spell resistance 18, telepathy, tongues; plane shift 1/day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) (all racial abilities), rogue class abilities, doesn't grow tired (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html).

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/drizzle.png Zz'dtri
Non-Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html) Drow male, Wizard: Transmuter (DCF) <16 ( Affected by Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html)).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Int 17+ (required to cast Plane Shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html)).
Cha ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Feats (9+): Lightning Reflexes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html), Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat), Silent Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html) (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=822237)), Boost Spell Resistance, unspecified feat that increases Spell Resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html), Empower Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html).
Abilities: Spell Resistance 28+ (racial, at least +4 from feats and an item (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html)), barred schools: Enchantment, Necromancy (by elimination).
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature), unspecified item that boosts Spell Resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html).
Spells: Baleful Polymorph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html), Break Enchantment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), Dimension Door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html), Disguise Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html), Flesh to Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), Fly (3.0 version) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), Gust of Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html), Phantasmal Killer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), Plane Shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html), Protection from Energy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html), Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Vitriolic Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html),
Wall of Ice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), unspecified lightning spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8754/qarrnn2.png Qarr
Lawful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html), Imp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) male, Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0625.html) 8-10 (required to cast Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html), and to get only two Scorching Rays (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html)).
Dex ~17 (no evidence, racial).
Int 12+ (familiar, based on Zz'dtri's level).
Wis ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Cha 14+ (required to cast Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html)).
Feats (5+): Dodge, Weapon Finesse (racial bonus feats).
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html), poison, detect good, detect magic, invisibility: self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), suggestion 1/day, commune 1/week, alternate form, damage reduction 5/good or silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html), darkvision, fast healing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), poison immunity, fire resistance; greater teleport: self plus 50 pounds of objects (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html), plane shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html), summon devil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) (all racial abilities);
Spells: Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html), Lesser Telepathic Bond or Telepathic Bond (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0503.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html), Scorching Ray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png Tarquin
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html), Human male, level 17+ (Unharmed by Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html)).
Age: 51+ (Has been adventuring for 35 years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html)).
Str ~9 (Age Penalty)
Dex 13+ (For Sidestep Charge or Robilar's Gambit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html))
Con ~9 (Age Penalty)
Int ~11 (Age Bonus)
Wis ~11 (Age Bonus)
Cha ~11 (Age Bonus)
Feats: Quick draw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html), [Dodge and Sidestep Charge or Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit], [Snatch Arrows or Gloves of Arrow Snaring] (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html)
Skills: , Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html), Spot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html)
Items: Dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html), helmet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html), two Rings of Regeneration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html), Ring of True Seeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html) Glamoured Armor, Axe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html) Mask that says "Nope" on it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Malack.png Malack
Lizardfolk male Cleric of Nergal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) 11+ (Can cast Harm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html))
Str ~12 (Racial)
Con ~12 (Racial)
Int ~8 (Racial)
Wis 16+ (To cast Harm)
Feats (4+): Quicken Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html)
Items: Holy Symbol, Staff with Unspecified Spell that Creates Undead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Kilkil.png Kilkil
Non-Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html) Winged Kobold male. Unknown Class. Character level 6-11 (Paralyzed by Holy Word (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html))
Items: Glasses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0718.html)
Abilities: Flight. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html)


Former members
:thog: Thog
Non-lawful (required for rage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html)) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), Half-Orc male, Fighter 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) / Barbarian 9+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html) (Appears to have 3 attacks a round).
Str 14+ (his highest ability score (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0791.html)).
Int <8 (racial, dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html)).
Wis <10 (abysmal will save (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html)).
Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Age: 17+ (WXP).
Feats (3+): Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html).
Skills (6+): Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html).
Abilities: Dungeoncrasher alternative class feature (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html) (forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11982830)), half-orc racial abilities, barbarian class abilities.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7486/hilgya.png Hilgya
Non-lawful (worships the god of chaos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html)) Evil (DCF), Dwarf female, Cleric of Loki (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html) 7+ (required to cast Restoration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html)).
Wis 14+ (required to cast Restoration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html)).
Abilities: Dwarf racial abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html), Fire domain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html), one unknown domain.
Items: Horned helmet, armor, shield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html), holy symbol (required to use rebuke ability (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html)).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Leeky.png Leeky Windstaff
Neutral Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html), Gnome male, Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html) 13+ (required to cast Fire Storm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html)).
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Wis 17+ (required to cast Fire Storm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html)).
Feats (5+): Leadership (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html).
Abilities: Gnome racial abilities, druid class abilities, animal companion (hawk "Kitty" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html), deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html)).

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1308/pompeypb9.jpg Pompey
Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html), Half-Elf male, Wizard: Conjurer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html) 5+ (required to cast Still Silent Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html)).
Int 14+ (required to cast four 2nd-level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html) spells per day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html)).
Age: 44+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html).
Feats (3+): Scribe scroll (wizard bonus feat), Silent Spell, Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html).
Skills (35+): Knowledge: Arcana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html).
Abilities: Half-elf racial abilities, barred schools: evocation and enchantment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html).
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature).
Spells: Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html), Summon Monster I (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html), Summon Monster II, at least 5 touch-range buff spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html) -- lowest-level possibilities are Mage Armor, Protection from Good, Protection from Law, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance.

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9580/yikyikpy8.jpg Yikyik (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0063.html))
Chaotic Evil (same as Belkar, DCF), Kobold male, Ranger (DCF).
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex 12+ (gets additional attack from Combat Reflexes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html)).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Feats: Combat Reflexes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html), Track (ranger bonus feat).
Abilities: Ranger class abilities.
Items: Dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Yokyok.png Yokyok (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html))
Kobold male.
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Items: Rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html).

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9580/yikyikpy8.jpg Yukyuk (Deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html))
Kobold male, Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html) 4+ (required for an animal companion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html)) / Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html).
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Abilities: Ranger and rogue class abilities, animal companion (riding dog "Sir Scraggly" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html)).
Feats (4+): Endurance, Track (ranger bonus feats).
Items: Two Crossbows of Quick Loading (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html).


The Sapphire Guard

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif Hinjo
Lawful Good, Human male, Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) 11-12 (three attacks per round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html), but was lower level than Roy during the battle at Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html), and hasn't leveled up since (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html)).
Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)).
Age: 26+ (WXP).
Abilities: Paladin class abilities, Summon Conscience (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html), paladin mount: dire wolf "Argent" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0432.html).
Items: Cold-iron katana, silvered katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html); magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/lien.png Lien
Lawful Good, Human female, Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html) 12+ (higher level than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html)).
Str 13+ (required for Cleave).
Int 10+ (good, not dumb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)).
Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html)).
Age: 29+ (three years older than Hinjo, DSTP).
Feats (6+): Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html), Power Attack (prerequisite for Cleave), Weapon Focus: Longspear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html).
Abilities: Paladin class abilities, paladin mount: large shark "Razor" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html).
Items: Longspear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html); magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP); ring of waterbreathing (DSTP).

:miko: Miko Miyazaki (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html))
Lawful Good, Human female, Monk 2+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) / Fallen Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html) 10+ (three main-hand attacks per round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), and higher level than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)).
Str 13+ (required for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html); the DMG states that a katana is a masterwork bastard sword; wielding it in one hand requires a feat, wielding it in two hands does not).
Dex 17+ (required for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)).
Wis 11+ (required to cast Cure Light Wounds in the Miko fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639)).
Cha 12+ (required for Lay On Hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0219.html)).
Age: 28+ (WXP).
Feats (6+): Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Katana (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (two off-hand attacks per round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)), Improved Unarmed Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html), Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html), Quick Draw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html), Stunning Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Track (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html), Two-Weapon Fighting (prerequisite for ITWF).
Skills (30+): Knowledge: the Planes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html), Survival +1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html).
Abilities: Monk class abilities, unavailable paladin mount: horse "Windstriker" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html).
Items: Magic boots, cloak and armor (WXP); katana, wakizashi (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/O-Chul.png O-Chul
Lawful Good, Human male, Fighter / Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) 3+ (has Aura of Courage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)), total level 12+ (higher than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html)).
Str 11+ (can carry Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)).
Con ~25 (WXP).
Cha <10 (dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)).
Age: 29+ (fighter for twelve years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html), and minimum age for a fighter is 16).
Skills (45+): Bluff 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html), Swim (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html), Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html).
Abilities: Paladin class abilities.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Shojo.png Shojo (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html))
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html), Human male, Aristocrat 14 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html).
Str / Dex / Con ~4 (no evidence, age).
Int / Wis / Cha ~13 (no evidence, age).
Age: 72+ (WXP).
Feats (6): Improved Paranoia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html).
Skills (68+): Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html), Perform (puppetry) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html).



Family and other characters

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/celiasmiley.png Celia
Lawful Good (DSTP), Sylph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html) female, 6+ HD (required to cast Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)).
Cha 16+ (required to cast four 3rd-level spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html) in a day).
Age: 22+ (WXP).
Abilities: Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), cast sorcerer spells as a caster of a level equal to her HD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html), shoot lightning out of her fingers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0529.html) (all racial abilities).
Feats (3+):
Skills (36+): Spellcraft (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).
Items: Black eyeliner pencil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html), cell phone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), dress that causes Feeblemind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0310.html).
Spells: Alter Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html), Summon Employee Exit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html), either Fog Cloud or Obscuring Mist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html), no necromancy spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html).

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Eugene.png Eugene Greenhilt (deceased, OOPC)
Lawful Good (SOD), Human male ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html), Wizard: Illusionist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html) 11+ (required to cast Permanent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html)).
Str/Dex ~4 (no evidence, age).
Con n/a (undead).
Int 16+ (required to cast Permanent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html)).
Wis ~13 (no evidence, age).
Cha 6+ (required to become a ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html)).
Age: 81+ (WXP).
Feats (8+): Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat).
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature).
Spells: Detect Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html), Fly (SOD), Invisibility Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0088.html), Minor Image (OOPC), Permanent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html), Summon Boot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0525.html), Teleport (SOD), unspecified chair conjuration (OOPC), unspecified fire spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html).

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/julia.png Julia Greenhilt
True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html), Human female, Wizard 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html).
Int 15+ (required to cast Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) from a scroll).
Age: 17+ (five years younger than Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html)).
Feats (4): Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat).
Spells: Feather Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html).

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/9168/samrg8.png Samantha (deceased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html))
Evil (NCPB), Human female, Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html) 12 (required to cast exactly three 6th level spells in a day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html)).
Cha 16-21 (required to cast Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), but has no bonus spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html) at level 6). Also, her charisma is higher than Haley's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html).
Age: 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html).
Feats (5): Maximize Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), not Silent Spell, not Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html).
Spells: Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), Protection From Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html).

Kurald Galain
2012-01-31, 01:28 PM
Frequently Asked Questions

Q: What happened to the old FAQ?
RMS and I found that the old FAQ was rather outdated and the questions on there weren't really frequently asked any more, so we're starting from a blank FAQ for now.

Q: Which characters are included in this thread?
(1) All members of the Order, Team Evil, and the Linear Guild.
(2) Any frequently occuring character, as noted in the Character Appearances thread. Note that this includes Samantha: it was easier to be a common character back when the comic was shorter. We don't unlist characters just because they've died.
(3) Family members of the main characters, as long as we have something to write about them.

Q: Which material is covered by this thread?
All comics on the web and in print (yes, including SSDT), as well as anything written about the comic by The Giant. However, not included are any one-panel joke comics, such as used for incentives, t-shirts, or kickstarter.

Q. A character undertook this heinous/awesome/dutiful/impulsive/meh action. Does that mean they are now evil/good/lawful/chaotic/neutral?
No. As seen in a thousand Miko threads, people have different ideas about alignment, and what defines and changes them. The alignments posted here, wherever possible, are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their alignment, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which has an alignment restriction. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's action changes their alignment, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers.

Q: How does Xykon cast Maximized Energy Drain in comic 652?
We don't know for sure. The most popular theories involve the feat Improved Spell Capacity, the feat Sudden Maximize, or a Rod of Metamagic. Each theory has its pros and cons.

Flame of Anor
2012-01-31, 02:41 PM
Best of luck to you both! I will try my best to keep a level head at all times, and I hope everyone else will, too.

Douglas
2012-01-31, 05:51 PM
So we've got one curator for the Order and a separate one for the rest? Good luck, and I hope this all works out.

Ok, so, can we can some [disputed] tags up? The recurring arguments that I recall are:
Belkar's wisdom (<=9 is universally accepted, =9 based on the Owl's Wisdom incident is disputed)
Elan's rapier (whether it's silver or not is disputed)
Strength scores and feats based on flight encumbrance (whether flight encumbrance is admissible evidence is disputed)

This turned into a general proofread, so here goes:
There are a few inequality signs that I think are pointing in the wrong direction. Belkar's wisdom and charisma, and Elan's wisdom.

The linked comic for Elan's modified charisma demonstrates a lower bound, not an exact value. Same for his skill ranks in Ride.

For an update, Redcloak is now at least level 17 as demonstrated by casting Implosion. He also now possesses Xykon's phylactery, and Xykon has a fake phylactery. Oh, and Tsukiko is dead.

Did I miss anything?

Oh, and: Yay, the thread is back!:smallsmile:

Gift Jeraff
2012-01-31, 06:00 PM
Nice to see this return. :smallsmile:

Perhaps Tarquin and Malack can be added to the Guild now? Malack is a Lizardfolk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) Cleric 11+ with Wis 16+...Not sure if we know anything else. EDIT: And Quicken Spell.

RMS Oceanic
2012-01-31, 06:23 PM
I've added an entry for Malack and moved him and Tarquin to the Linear Guild. I haven't removed Yukyuk just yet because we don't know if he's permanently removed from the story. I also haven't added Kilkil because other than his race I don't think we know anything else about him.

Also added Xykon and Redcloak's stats and possessions, including a link for Redcloak's command undead, and Tsukiko's deadness.

Gorm_the_DBA
2012-01-31, 06:27 PM
Enquiring minds wanna know....how does strip 675 prove that Elan's charisma is exactly 22?

All I see evidence of is crazy low int/wisdom...

Illven
2012-01-31, 06:29 PM
For Nale, are we sure he doesn't have a ring of evasion?

I mean I think it's unlikely, but it is a core magic item.

Also Haley's charisma has to be less then 21. Samantha couldn't have a charisma of 22 without having 4 6th level spell slots, and Haley has less Charisma then Samantha.

RMS Oceanic
2012-01-31, 06:34 PM
Enquiring minds wanna know....how does strip 675 prove that Elan's charisma is exactly 22?

All I see evidence of is crazy low int/wisdom...

I can't speak for exactly 22, but at least 22 is explained as such:

1. The strip where he and Durkon reunites with Haley and Belkar, explaining how he learned two level five spells. The only way a bard can do this is achieving level 13 with a charisma of at least 20.
2. Buying a belt of charisma in strip 675.

Douglas
2012-01-31, 06:35 PM
Enquiring minds wanna know....how does strip 675 prove that Elan's charisma is exactly 22?

All I see evidence of is crazy low int/wisdom...
It proves that he has an item that increases his charisma, and we have prior evidence that his normal charisma was at least 20. There are no +1 items (inherent bonuses excepted) in 3.5, so it's at least a +2 (probably exactly +2, given the price) which would combine with his base to produce at least 22. Listing it as evidence of an exact value is a mistake, though.

For Nale, are we sure he doesn't have a ring of evasion?

I mean I think it's unlikely, but it is a core magic item.
Given that we know he's a rogue and rogues get evasion at the very low level of two, it is technically a possibility but sufficiently unlikely that it's not worth serious consideration (in my opinion).

Illven
2012-01-31, 06:37 PM
Given that we know he's a rogue and rogues get evasion at the very low level of two, it is technically a possibility but sufficiently unlikely that it's not worth serious consideration (in my opinion).

Oh I fully agree it's unlikely, and that him being a level 2 rogue makes more sense. But the ring doesn't require non-core sources, and we know he went shopping for magic items.

Flame of Anor
2012-01-31, 06:43 PM
Ok, so, can we can some [disputed] tags up? The recurring arguments that I recall are:
Belkar's wisdom (<=9 is universally accepted, =9 based on the Owl's Wisdom incident is disputed)
Elan's rapier (whether it's silver or not is disputed)
Strength scores and feats based on flight encumbrance (whether flight encumbrance is admissible evidence is disputed)

This, very much. I would really like to see some more flexibility in this thread than the last one--surely it's easy to see that running it the same way will lead to the same problems?

Douglas
2012-01-31, 06:49 PM
Oh I fully agree it's unlikely, and that him being a level 2 rogue makes more sense. But the ring doesn't require non-core sources, and we know he went shopping for magic items.
There are so many different ways to do so many things in 3.5 that if we started listing every possibility the first two posts would quickly balloon into an enormous unusable mess. When one explanation is the clear leader for being the most likely and making the most sense, that explanation should be assumed correct - and be the only one listed - until and unless further evidence changes it. Anything else would, in my opinion, contribute negligible value to the thread and make the stats more confusing. Alternatives should be listed only when there is substantial debate about which one is more likely - not which ones are possible.

The comic linked for Redcloak's level is one off - it should be 826, where he actually casts Implosion and comments about it being a new spell level for him.

RMS Oceanic
2012-01-31, 06:53 PM
The comic linked for Redcloak's level is one off - it should be 826, where he actually casts Implosion and comments about it being a new spell level for him.

Indeed. I momentarily forgot how to count. :smallsmile:

Kurald and myself are discussing how best to handle disputed facts. We'll be bringing this discussion into the thread in due time.

Kish
2012-01-31, 06:53 PM
If I correctly understand that RMS Oceanic is now the curator of all non-Order members, I would like to formally request that he review the evidence that led to Shojo being listed as having Perform (Puppetry).


Also Haley's charisma has to be less then 21. Samantha couldn't have a charisma of 22 without having 4 6th level spell slots, and Haley has less Charisma then Samantha.
We don't know that Samantha didn't have 4 6th level spell slots. If you mean, because she only cast three onstage before agreeing she was out of spell slots, we don't know what she cast during her duel with Haley, beyond that Haley explicitly noted she wasn't going into her battle with the Order with all her spell slots.

Sniffnoy
2012-01-31, 06:56 PM
Some nitpicks: "Dress that causes feeblemind" link has bad URL.

There seem to be some backwards inequalities -- e.g. Belkar being listed as Cha>=10 instead of Cha<=10.

Also, is the * after the note about Haley's age supposed to link somewhere?

Flame of Anor
2012-01-31, 06:59 PM
Here, if you want to be fancy--these are copy/pastable:



Chronos
2012-01-31, 09:00 PM
I know we're not listing ordinary spells for clerics, because they have access to their full list. But Redcloak has cast some nonstandard spells on the fake phylactery: Hardness is a Sorc/Wiz spell in the Spell Compendium, Greater Obscure Object isn't listed anywhere, and Superior Resistance is listed in the SpC, but can't be cast on objects, so what Redcloak is casting is clearly different from the SpC one.

Also, we could make some arguments about Redcloak's Wis based on the spells he's cast today (828-831): Based on the number of slots cast (not counting the nonstandard spells I mentioned above, since we don't know what level they would be for him), the simplest explanation is a Wis of 22+. But there are still alternate explanations, such as a spell being cast from a higher-level slot, or some of the bearded devils being from Lesser Planar Ally instead of the regular form.

Howler Dagger
2012-01-31, 09:08 PM
Here, if you want to be fancy--these are copy/pastable:




Or you could just underline >/< signs.


Glad to have this back. I notied Redcloak doesn't have his spells listed, perhaps you should do that?

137ben
2012-01-31, 09:39 PM
Str 14+ (can carry two goblins in an elf;
Is that suppose to be two goblins AND an elf?

Kish
2012-01-31, 09:47 PM
Well, if the elf hasn't digested the goblins yet, and ate them bones and all, then the weight's really no different...

thereaper
2012-02-01, 01:24 AM
How do we know the book Belkar was reading was Dune?

Shakiko
2012-02-01, 01:43 AM
How do we know the book Belkar was reading was Dune?
Well, there is no 100% proof, but considering that the setting was parody-ing Dune in General and Belkar's speech balloon seems to be referring to the scene where Duke Leto Atreides tries to kill the Baron Harkonnen using the poisoned tooth that Dr. Yueh implanted, it seems to be most likely that Belkar is rooting for the Baron in Dune.

Kurald Galain
2012-02-01, 05:46 AM
Okay, welcome back everyone.

Well, this thread has traditionally had two different people running it, one for the OOTS part and one for the other characters; so we decided to return to that. RMS and I are also reviewing one another, so to speak.

I think it would be nice to start the thread with catching up to the recent comics (basically what we're already doing). That said, I see no harm in putting up a few "disputed" tags. Two other classic disputes are Xykon's level (21+ is universally accepted, 27+ is not), and whether Vaarsuvius uses Overland Flight.

I think we should have an entry for Kilkil, even if it's only one line "kobold male". We had the same for Yukyuk and Yikyik, after all.

Incidentally, Shojo has Perform because the title of that comic says so.

I would prefer to avoid ≥ signs because they apparently disappear when copy/pasted into notepad, and I find 16+ easier to read than ≥16. That's why some signs in the first post are messed up, I'll fix those as soon as the forum lag gets less bad.

Finally, I should point out that in the past the thread has defaulted to using the lowest level, because levels are a really big deal in D&D. That is, if somebody uses an illusion spell that could be either Silent Image or Major Image, the former is assumed, because it's lower level. Likewise, if a caster requires "level 10+ and 18+ wis" or "level 11+ and 16+ wis", then again the former is assumed, because it's lower level. This is also to make the thread less cluttered.

Once&FutureKing
2012-02-01, 05:53 AM
I'm sorry, but what on earth is the dispute Xykon is above 21? I remember reading many earlier calculations on the old threads that he was a minimum of 27, and quite likely a great deal higher. The only argument anyone ever made about it was he had invisible rods of metamagic on him, which is a line of argumentation you could use for every character and level ever (eg "O'Chul doesn't have many hit points, he just had an invisible armour made of magic").

RMS Oceanic
2012-02-01, 05:57 AM
I have added a DISPUTED tag to anything in my post regarding flight encumbrance until we can reach a decision. I've also added Kilkil.

Does anyone have a picture for Malack or Kilkil?

Douglas
2012-02-01, 08:04 AM
I have added a DISPUTED tag to anything in my post regarding flight encumbrance until we can reach a decision.
You missed Celia's strength and feat, and Sabine's feat. Also, I think we have more than sufficient evidence completely unrelated to flight for Thog having 14+ strength.

ThePhantasm
2012-02-01, 08:16 AM
I have added a DISPUTED tag to anything in my post regarding flight encumbrance until we can reach a decision. I've also added Kilkil.

Does anyone have a picture for Malack or Kilkil?

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Malack.png

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Kilkil.png

From the Smilies thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96672&highlight=smilies).

RMS Oceanic
2012-02-01, 08:22 AM
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Malack.png

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Kilkil.png

From the Smilies thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96672&highlight=smilies).
Thanking you sir. :smallsmile:


You missed Celia's strength and feat, and Sabine's feat. Also, I think we have more than sufficient evidence completely unrelated to flight for Thog having 14+ strength.

Indeed I did. They are now added. Also on Kurald's advice, I've tried to make the Disputed tag slightly less attention grabbing.

Can someone do precise number crunching for Thog's strength that doesn't need flight, and I'll link that post to his strength?

eras10
2012-02-01, 08:34 AM
FWIW,

It seems to me like #653, suggested as evidence that Xykon has a ring of protection giving a deflection bonus, is not in fact certain evidence of such.

Personally, I always assumed that the 'deflect' in that strip was evidence of Xykon's Epic Mage Armor, which as I recall provides a truly enormous deflection bonus, and is quite fittingly revealed to us by O-Chul's spell list about 10-15 strips later.

So... disputed?

Gullintanni
2012-02-01, 08:40 AM
I'm sorry, but what on earth is the dispute Xykon is above 21? I remember reading many earlier calculations on the old threads that he was a minimum of 27, and quite likely a great deal higher. The only argument anyone ever made about it was he had invisible rods of metamagic on him, which is a line of argumentation you could use for every character and level ever (eg "O'Chul doesn't have many hit points, he just had an invisible armour made of magic").

Xykon doesn't actually need 12th level spell slots owing to a number of potential factors:

1. A metamagic rod.
2. Metamagic reducers.
3. Sudden maximize.

All of these are possible explanations for Xykon's Maximized Energy Drain. None are particularly likely because in case number 1, Rich tends to show items when they're in use, even if he doesn't have too. In case number 2, Arcane Thesis is off the table for Sorcerers IIRC, so even with Metamagic School Focus and Dragon Magazine's Easy Metamagic, a pure Sorcerer still has one level of metamagic mitigation to do. This also seems pretty convoluted. In case number 3, Sudden Maximize has a pre-requisite of one additional metamagic feat. This is the most likely of the three scenarios above IMHO.

Cases number 2 and 3 are less likely, because Rich tends not to use non-core material very frequently, but he certainly has in the past (Tsukiko's Orb spells for example), so it's still entirely within the scope of possibility.

Ergo, Xykon must be at least level 21, and is in all likelihood higher than that, but still must not necessarily be higher than 21.

Accordingly, Xykon's level should probably read >=21.

RMS Oceanic
2012-02-01, 08:41 AM
EMA gives an armor bonus to AC, not a deflection bonus.

FlawedParadigm
2012-02-01, 08:56 AM
I think Haley's Cha can safely be stated as 12-19 instead of 12+. If she has maxed Bluff, but also says Hide is her best skill, then her Cha modifier must be less her Dex modifier. She didn't say it was tied for her best skill, after all.

sr123
2012-02-01, 09:54 AM
Ergo, Xykon must be at least level 21, and is in all likelihood higher than that, but still must not necessarily be higher than 21.

Then why not, as I believe is done elsewhere, list both the most likely and the absolute min/max: "Xykon's level is >=27 (minimum 21)."

Also, can we put in minimum point buys again, as per previous CLG threads? I think it gives some insight into how characters made and guided their builds.

Palthera
2012-02-01, 10:00 AM
Then why not, as I believe is done elsewhere, list both the most likely and the absolute min/max: "Xykon's level is >=27 (minimum 21)."

Also, can we put in minimum point buys again, as per previous CLG threads? I think it gives some insight into how characters made and guided their builds.

I think it more likely that they rolled for their stats... which accounts for the randomness.

Douglas
2012-02-01, 10:16 AM
Xykon doesn't actually need 12th level spell slots owing to a number of potential factors:

1. A metamagic rod.
2. Metamagic reducers.
3. Sudden maximize.

All of these are possible explanations for Xykon's Maximized Energy Drain. None are particularly likely because in case number 1, Rich tends to show items when they're in use, even if he doesn't have too. In case number 2, Arcane Thesis is off the table for Sorcerers IIRC, so even with Metamagic School Focus and Dragon Magazine's Easy Metamagic, a pure Sorcerer still has one level of metamagic mitigation to do. This also seems pretty convoluted. In case number 3, Sudden Maximize has a pre-requisite of one additional metamagic feat. This is the most likely of the three scenarios above IMHO.

Cases number 2 and 3 are less likely, because Rich tends not to use non-core material very frequently, but he certainly has in the past (Tsukiko's Orb spells for example), so it's still entirely within the scope of possibility.

Ergo, Xykon must be at least level 21, and is in all likelihood higher than that, but still must not necessarily be higher than 21.

Accordingly, Xykon's level should probably read >=21.
I think all of these possibilities fall under the "technically possible but not likely" category that should not be listed until and unless something happens to change the "not likely" part. Significant items should not be assumed unless shown or no likely alternative is available, and core should be preferred to non-core. Level 27 is a core non-item-based explanation for Maximized Energy Drain, so unless it gets contradicted by new evidence it should be assumed to be the correct explanation in preference to any of the three you listed.

Still, this is not so trivial an inference as Nale having a second level of Rogue. I think Xykon should be left as is, with level 27+ and no disputed tag, but if more people show up to support 21 as the lower limit I won't argue too vociferously against a disputed tag.

Flame of Anor
2012-02-01, 11:32 AM
Not to nitpick, but wouldn't "silver [disputed] +3 keen rapier" be a bit clearer than "silver +3 keen rapier [disputed]"?

Gullintanni
2012-02-01, 11:54 AM
I think all of these possibilities fall under the "technically possible but not likely" category that should not be listed until and unless something happens to change the "not likely" part. Significant items should not be assumed unless shown or no likely alternative is available, and core should be preferred to non-core. Level 27 is a core non-item-based explanation for Maximized Energy Drain, so unless it gets contradicted by new evidence it should be assumed to be the correct explanation in preference to any of the three you listed.

Still, this is not so trivial an inference as Nale having a second level of Rogue. I think Xykon should be left as is, with level 27+ and no disputed tag, but if more people show up to support 21 as the lower limit I won't argue too vociferously against a disputed tag.

...When I read an entry, I expect it to include data that accounts for all possible deviations within the given ruleset. We have an established mandatory minimum of level 21. This is the only unambiguously confirmable piece of information we have based on the evidence. While it's logical to assume a point of power higher than that, this is all we can confirm.

Every other proposed data point requires assumptions to be made about things that we don't know. Therefore to suggest 27+ as an absolute number is to misrepresent the possibilities as they exist. Were this a scientific analysis in a peer-reviewed journals, failure to disclose other potential eventualities would be fraud.

27+ is the most likely case, but it still requires that you assume. There's still a margin of error in the current stat block for Xykon that isn't being disclosed. 21+ requires no assumption. It is the bare minimum fact based on current evidence. And isn't that the point of this thread? To establish fact based statistics for each character.

At best, the entry ought to read 21+ minimum, likely 27+...or some other such reading. Either way, as written, the entry doesn't present all the data.

All I yearn for is a statistic that doesn't advocate an absolute position based on speculation (no matter how reasonable said speculation may or may not be) :smallmad::smalltongue:

Silver Swift
2012-02-01, 12:27 PM
Maybe something like: "Sorcerer 27+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) Disputed (21+ minimum, requires off-panel items or extensive use of non-core feats)"

Fitzclowningham
2012-02-01, 12:32 PM
Re: Thog's Strength, the DC to jump 20 (?) feet in the air (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html) is 80. Subtract the 6 points for Greater Rage, and the Jump skill modifier, and you get his strength. Assuming he got 10 on his jump roll, and had 19 ranks in Jump, he would need a +51 modifier to hit 80, which would give him Str of 112 with Greater Rage, 106 without. If he had Skill Focus: Jump, it would be 100 unmodified.

Obviously, it's nowhere near that high; Rich drew the strip more in deference to the Rule of Whoa than to the RaW. However, all his actions in the arena show Thog to be monstrously powerful. Strength is his best attribute, and he knows how to use it. I'm not suggesting anything in particular be put into his stat block, but I'd be stunned if his score is less than 22.

Gullintanni
2012-02-01, 12:40 PM
Maybe something like: "Sorcerer 27+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) Disputed (21+ minimum, requires off-panel items or extensive use of non-core feats)"

Sudden Maximize isn't particularly extensive. One feat from Complete Arcane. :smallamused:

But I'd agree with any representation as long as all the evidence is presented.

LuPuWei
2012-02-01, 01:04 PM
Would Yokyok's speech here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html) imply that he's Good ("I normally would not stoop to travel with such scoundrels" "I am pure righteous justice") if not Lawful ("I am pure righteous justice here to deliver the right punishment") or at the very least Not Evil?

Joerg
2012-02-01, 01:19 PM
Redcloak still has the fauxlactery, not Xykon.

Douglas
2012-02-01, 01:45 PM
...When I read an entry, I expect it to include data that accounts for all possible deviations within the given ruleset. We have an established mandatory minimum of level 21. This is the only unambiguously confirmable piece of information we have based on the evidence. While it's logical to assume a point of power higher than that, this is all we can confirm.
Applying the principle of accounting for all possible deviations within the given ruleset would, if done across the board, require the inclusion of dozens or hundreds of mostly spurious and unlikely speculations. Maybe Redcloak cast Implosion from a scroll, or used a Candle of Invocation to boost his spellcasting. Maybe Nale has levels in Eldritch Knight. Maybe Nale has a Ring of Evasion and only one level in Rogue. Maybe Redcloak has a charisma penalty and Extra Turning. Maybe Vaarsuvius has Extra Slot and slightly less intelligence. Maybe Haley has some levels in Fighter to bring her BAB up and get Improved Precise Shot without being level 15. I could go on.

Including all of these would make the whole thing a confusing mess of conflicting guesses of little value.

Every other proposed data point requires assumptions to be made about things that we don't know. Therefore to suggest 27+ as an absolute number is to misrepresent the possibilities as they exist. Were this a scientific analysis in a peer-reviewed journals, failure to disclose other potential eventualities would be fraud.
This is not a scientific analysis in a peer-reviewed journal. This is a collection of our best guesses, and assumptions of some level are required in order to keep it usable.


27+ is the most likely case, but it still requires that you assume. There's still a margin of error in the current stat block for Xykon that isn't being disclosed. 21+ requires no assumption. It is the bare minimum fact based on current evidence. And isn't that the point of this thread? To establish fact based statistics for each character.

At best, the entry ought to read 21+ minimum, likely 27+...or some other such reading. Either way, as written, the entry doesn't present all the data.

All I yearn for is a statistic that doesn't advocate an absolute position based on speculation (no matter how reasonable said speculation may or may not be) :smallmad::smalltongue:
Yes, it requires that we make a few assumptions. So do a very large number of other things that could technically be explained in other ways. Do you really want to see stat blocks that say "this, or this, or this, or maybe that, or this other thing, or another possibility depending on this other option" over and over again for umpteen different things? Such a stat block would be horrible, confusing, and of very little use.

I take it as understood from the start that the stat blocks maintained here are always our provisional best guesses. Restricting it to absolutely proven facts would require either tossing out a ton of good information or listing a bewildering array of unlikely options. To keep this thread useful, we have to make assumptions at some level and judge the likelihood of various options, and options are only worth listing if their likelihood is judged to be high. I, personally, do not consider any alternative I've seen to level 27+ Xykon to be anywhere near as likely, so I don't consider them worth mentioning until and unless new evidence is revealed that specifically supports them.

With that said, if a note for level 21+ Xykon demonstrates significantly more support than one lone crusader, I won't be too put out about a disputed tag.


Redcloak still has the fauxlactery, not Xykon.
No, it is quite clearly the fake one that Redcloak is giving Xykon. The real one still has a broken chain.

Morty
2012-02-01, 01:59 PM
There's an error in Roy's writeup; both the link for his belt and the sextant and book lead to the same strip.

Gullintanni
2012-02-01, 02:03 PM
-stuff-


Hmm, alright. I'd failed to consider the early entry/prerequisite weaseling nature of 3.5 D&D. With all that in mind, there's not a whole heck of a lot of real evidence pinning any of these stats down to their character absent explicit statements of capability.

I don't think there's a lot of value in this thread for someone who's looking for explicit evidence so I'm going to leave you all to it.

Have fun! :smallamused:

Joerg
2012-02-01, 02:51 PM
No, it is quite clearly the fake one that Redcloak is giving Xykon. The real one still has a broken chain.

No, I mean, Redcloak still has both of them. Xykon hasn't taken the fake one, it's still in its case in Redcloak's hand. Or am I completely missing something here?

Once&FutureKing
2012-02-01, 02:56 PM
I think all of these possibilities fall under the "technically possible but not likely" category that should not be listed until and unless something happens to change the "not likely" part. Significant items should not be assumed unless shown or no likely alternative is available, and core should be preferred to non-core. Level 27 is a core non-item-based explanation for Maximized Energy Drain, so unless it gets contradicted by new evidence it should be assumed to be the correct explanation in preference to any of the three you listed.

Still, this is not so trivial an inference as Nale having a second level of Rogue. I think Xykon should be left as is, with level 27+ and no disputed tag, but if more people show up to support 21 as the lower limit I won't argue too vociferously against a disputed tag.

+1
It's technically possible O'Chul had invisible armour on when Xykon fought and tortured him, thus negating his hit point count. Is anyone seriously going to let that obscure possibility negate what is otherwise shown? It's technically possible some characters lied about their sex, and are female. This is not a good way to come to conclusions. Can you imagine the listings for such unlikely possibilities?

Belkar: Male (not inconceivable he is misleading the group, could be female)

Blackwing: Raven, but could be lying. Black feathers (could be dyed, might be grey).

Flame of Anor
2012-02-01, 02:57 PM
No, I mean, Redcloak still has both of them. Xykon hasn't taken the fake one, it's still in its case in Redcloak's hand. Or am I completely missing something here?

No, you're right--actually, you're both kind of right. Douglas meant that the amulet Redcloak was presenting to Xykon was the fake (which it is)--he just didn't notice that Xykon hadn't yet taken delivery of the fauxlactery.

MesiDoomstalker
2012-02-01, 03:40 PM
I would like to point out that there are at least 2 ways that I know of that could give a Kobold like Kilkil wings. Those being the Winged template and the Dragonwrought/Dragon Wings combo. Both of these are non-core. Their might be a core/item way to give a kobold wings but I am hereto unaware of it.

zimmerwald1915
2012-02-01, 04:01 PM
I would like to point out that there are at least 2 ways that I know of that could give a Kobold like Kilkil wings. Those being the Winged template and the Dragonwrought/Dragon Wings combo. Both of these are non-core. Their might be a core/item way to give a kobold wings but I am hereto unaware of it.
In core I'm pretty sure he could have nine levels of Dragon Disciple.

Morty
2012-02-01, 04:24 PM
I maintain that Kilkil having nine levels of Dragon Disciple is unlikely - such a powerful character wouldn't be a pencil-pusher.

super dark33
2012-02-01, 04:26 PM
Hiyoooooo its alive!

Well, i think its final that thog is dead.
any disagreements?

zimmerwald1915
2012-02-01, 04:37 PM
I maintain that Kilkil having nine levels of Dragon Disciple is unlikely - such a powerful character wouldn't be a pencil-pusher.
Of course it's unlikely. But it is a core way for a small character to have wings, which was the one and only point.

That said, whether something is core or not, it seems, becomes less important as the comic progresses. The Warlock, for instance, makes an appearence in the barfight, and Thog reveals his Dungeoncrashing ability in this arc where he hadn't before. Come to think of it, might the number of the strip in which a character demonstrates an ability have a bearing on the possible explanations for that ability?

Douglas
2012-02-01, 05:08 PM
Hiyoooooo its alive!

Well, i think its final that thog is dead.
any disagreements?
Nah, so far he's still covered by Never Found The Body (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeverFoundTheBody).

Now that I check, it seems Redcloak does still have both the real and fake phylacteries.

Morty
2012-02-01, 05:20 PM
Of course it's unlikely. But it is a core way for a small character to have wings, which was the one and only point.

I see. Well, if that's how you meant it, I have no objections.

SavageWombat
2012-02-01, 05:29 PM
Winged Kobolds (Urds) have been in D&D since 2nd Edition, if not the 1st Ed FF as I think I remember.

Howler Dagger
2012-02-01, 05:30 PM
Honestly, a SRD explanation should generally beat a non-SRD explanation because Rich has commented before on how he assumes SRD is common knowledge and everything else is rare. It also, based on the events in nnumerous strips (Haley being surprised that Tsukiko used Ord of Electricity and Redcloak needing to search for Psionics) it can be assumed that the OOTSVerse is Core-Focused. I'll admit that on a few occasions cahracters show knowledge of non-core things (such as V being insulted by being called a warlock/seeing a warlock in a tavern) could dispute this.


Also, why doesn't REdcloak sill not have his spells listed?

MesiDoomstalker
2012-02-01, 05:34 PM
Winged Kobolds (Urds) have been in D&D since 2nd Edition, if not the 1st Ed FF as I think I remember.

One problem with Urd explanation is that they were never updated to 3.0/5 and in the Ootsverse, there is a location where all such creatures gathered. That location has been destroyed a little over a year ago in-comic but I don't think thats long enough for Kilkil to travel all the way over to EoB and get what seems to be a rather high ranking position.

Debatra
2012-02-01, 05:35 PM
Also, why doesn't REdcloak sill not have his spells listed?

Probably because he's a Cleric. His Domains are listed.

Sriad
2012-02-01, 05:50 PM
Xykon's minimum (net) Spellcraft is 39, because casting Superb Dispelling requires a DC 59 check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/superbDispelling.htm).

49+ is much more likely so he can reliably cast it in combat. This won't have an effect on his level because it's pretty easy to boost skills with synergy, stats, competence items, etc, but should probably be noted since it's 15 higher than what's currently listed.

Flame of Anor
2012-02-01, 06:04 PM
If we're including silly jokes, V has rescale graph on his/her spell list (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/599092525/the-order-of-the-stick-reprint-drive/posts).

Douglas
2012-02-01, 06:13 PM
If we're including silly jokes, V has rescale graph on his/her spell list (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/599092525/the-order-of-the-stick-reprint-drive/posts).
I'd rather not include that one. Too far out of canon while being an insanely specific joke spell.

Flame of Anor
2012-02-01, 06:29 PM
I'd rather not include that one. Too far out of canon while being an insanely specific joke spell.

I know, I don't really want to include it either. I'm just obliquely poking fun at some of the things that are included. :smallwink:

ti'esar
2012-02-01, 06:29 PM
One problem with Urd explanation is that they were never updated to 3.0/5 and in the Ootsverse, there is a location where all such creatures gathered. That location has been destroyed a little over a year ago in-comic but I don't think thats long enough for Kilkil to travel all the way over to EoB and get what seems to be a rather high ranking position.

Actually, I thought urds were updated in a non-core book (Fiend Folio maybe)?

Flame of Anor
2012-02-01, 07:03 PM
Actually, I thought urds were updated in a non-core book (Fiend Folio maybe)?

Even if not, the relevant comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html) never says all non-updated creatures are in the pit. Just that all that are in the pit are non-updated, and that all non-updated monsters are controlled by the Talisman.

Da'Shain
2012-02-01, 08:10 PM
Xykon's DEX score is missing from his entry. Not that I think we have much relevant information there, but just thought I'd point it out.

Also, I seem to remember that this was asked in the previous threads and can't remember why it wasn't passed: can we make an entry with what we know of the Ancient Black Dragon Mother? I figure if Julia and Samantha rate entries, she definitely does.

Fitzclowningham
2012-02-01, 08:25 PM
Can anyone think of a reason that Belkar is listed as having "taken at least three levels of barbarian" in the OotS Wikipedia Page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_of_the_Stick)?

Debatra
2012-02-01, 10:08 PM
Julia was said to be 16 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html) (panel 7) at least a year ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) (panel 2).

Yendor
2012-02-02, 01:26 AM
This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html) gives an upper limit of 17 for Roy's Charisma (and technically for the other three, but we already know theirs is crap).

Gift Jeraff
2012-02-02, 01:30 AM
I feel like I'm missing something completely obvious, but where did we get that Roy was exactly level 13 before he died?

Illven
2012-02-02, 01:44 AM
This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html) gives an upper limit of 17 for Roy's Charisma (and technically for the other three, but we already know theirs is crap).

Well that also tells us Haley's is no more than 17.

thereaper
2012-02-02, 01:57 AM
Unless she increased it, but that is unlikely.

MesiDoomstalker
2012-02-02, 02:27 AM
In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html) (panel 4 right before he unveils Implosion) we see Redcloak has a Deflection bonus somehow. Ring of Protection is most likely but I'm sure there are other ways for a high level Cleric to have a deflection bonus. Any ideas on how?

SavageWombat
2012-02-02, 03:01 AM
In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html) (panel 4 right before he unveils Implosion) we see Redcloak has a Deflection bonus somehow. Ring of Protection is most likely but I'm sure there are other ways for a high level Cleric to have a deflection bonus. Any ideas on how?

Entropic Shield, I'll bet.

Flame of Anor
2012-02-02, 03:14 AM
Entropic Shield, I'll bet.

Is a Lawful cleric likely to cast such a Chaotic spell?

Kurald Galain
2012-02-02, 04:59 AM
Fixed link for Roy's sextant and book, added limit to Roy/Haley's charisma.


Would Yokyok's speech here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html) imply that he's Good ("I normally would not stoop to travel with such scoundrels" "I am pure righteous justice") if not Lawful ("I am pure righteous justice here to deliver the right punishment") or at the very least Not Evil?
Maybe. However, alignment is a big can of worms: players traditionally disagree (strongly) about what the nine alignments mean. If you were to start a thread about your favorite movie character and asked his alignment, you would get at least three different responses; and on OOTS, we've had frequent threads claiming that Belkar and Thog weren't evil. So for alignment issues, we do need an explicit statement.


Well, i think its final that thog is dead.
any disagreements?
It's mentioned in-comic that they aren't sure he's dead. So yes, there is disagreement on this.


Xykon's DEX score is missing from his entry.
No, it's omitted because we know nothing about his dex.



Also, I seem to remember that this was asked in the previous threads and can't remember why it wasn't passed: can we make an entry with what we know of the Ancient Black Dragon Mother?
It wasn't "passed" because the dragon ranks very low on the "number of character appearances" thread. Julia is listed because she's a direct relative of the main character; Samantha is there because of the grandfather clause, and shouldn't be seen as a standard for entry.


Is a Lawful cleric likely to cast such a Chaotic spell?
It doesn't have the "chaos" descriptor, so I don't see why not.

Speaking of Redcloak, I do agree that we should list any spells he uses that aren't on the cleric list (such as Unseal). He probably has those from researching them, since we know clerics can research spells.

ti'esar
2012-02-02, 05:18 AM
Maybe. However, alignment is a big can of worms: players traditionally disagree (strongly) about what the nine alignments mean. If you were to start a thread about your favorite movie character and asked his alignment, you would get at least three different responses; and on OOTS, we've had frequent threads claiming that Belkar and Thog weren't evil. So for alignment issues, we do need an explicit statement.

Wait a minute - I thought it was explicitly stated that Yokyok was Lawful Good, as the "evil" opposite to CE Belkar. I actually remember it being debated in another thread whether he acted LG, with myself and others arguing that it would be ridiculous were he not essentially a joke character, and no one on either side pointed out that he had never actually had his alignment stated.

Kurald Galain
2012-02-02, 05:29 AM
Wait a minute - I thought it was explicitly stated that Yokyok was Lawful Good,
Then please point out where.

ti'esar
2012-02-02, 05:39 AM
I'm not sure where, exactly, but I've always seen it treated as a fact. If it's not, I'm very curious as to where it came from.

EDIT: It's not mentioned anywhere in the online strips.

Kish
2012-02-02, 05:59 AM
Rich described Yokyok as the odd man out, alignment-wise, on his team, and said that while Belkar was despicable in the company of heroes, Yokyok was noble in the company of villains.

Is a Lawful cleric likely to cast such a Chaotic spell?
Huh? It's no more "Chaotic" than Disintegrate, which we know Redcloak casts all the time.

Gullintanni
2012-02-02, 07:24 AM
Xykon's minimum (net) Spellcraft is 39, because casting Superb Dispelling requires a DC 59 check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/superbDispelling.htm).

49+ is much more likely so he can reliably cast it in combat. This won't have an effect on his level because it's pretty easy to boost skills with synergy, stats, competence items, etc, but should probably be noted since it's 15 higher than what's currently listed.

Aye, a minimum 39 modifier is a necessity here.

SavageWombat
2012-02-02, 10:08 AM
Is a Lawful cleric likely to cast such a Chaotic spell?

It's not an inherently Chaotic spell - doesn't have the descriptor. It's more common to Chaotic clerics, since I believe it's in the Chaos domain, but it's not barred to Redcloak.

MesiDoomstalker
2012-02-02, 10:17 AM
Entropic Shield, I'll bet.

How in the world could I have forgotten the 1st level spell used to creaet Rings of Protection is on the Cleric list? HOW!?!? /feels like a dumby.

Debatra
2012-02-02, 10:18 AM
Is a Lawful cleric likely to cast such a Chaotic spell?

It's not a Chaotic spell.

That said, it provides a miss chance, not a deflection bonus. Shield of Faith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOfFaith.htm) is more likely. (+4 Deflection Bonus at 17th-level; +5 at 18th if he has any Caster Level-increasing abilities)


It's not an inherently Chaotic spell - doesn't have the descriptor. It's more common to Chaotic clerics, since I believe it's in the Chaos domain, but it's not barred to Redcloak.

Clr 1, Luck 1.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entropicShield.htm

Gullintanni
2012-02-02, 10:20 AM
Entropic Shield, I'll bet.

As stated, Law or Chaos isn't really an issue. RC can cast Entropic Shield. This is the best contender for why the spell in question is not Entropic Shield:

From SRD:

A magical field appears around you, glowing with a chaotic blast of multicolored hues.

Empasis added. RC isn't colourful enough to have cast Entropic Shield.

EDIT: Shield of Faith makes a lot of sense though.

Debatra
2012-02-02, 10:24 AM
As stated, Law or Chaos isn't really an issue. RC can cast Entropic Shield. This is the best contender for why the spell in question is not Entropic Shield:

From SRD:

A magical field appears around you, glowing with a chaotic blast of multicolored hues.

Empasis added. RC isn't colourful enough to have cast Entropic Shield.

EDIT: Shield of Faith makes a lot of sense though.

You mean aside from the fact that it doesn't even provide a deflection bonus?

Gullintanni
2012-02-02, 10:29 AM
You mean aside from the fact that it doesn't even provide a deflection bonus?

Entropic Shield

From SRD:

A magical field appears around you, glowing with a chaotic blast of multicolored hues. This field deflects incoming arrows, rays, and other ranged attacks. Each ranged attack directed at you for which the attacker must make an attack roll has a 20% miss chance (similar to the effects of concealment). Other attacks that simply work at a distance are not affected.

Emphasis added again. It's flat out stated that Entropic Shield deflects arrows despite not providing a deflection bonus.

The stronger case, IMHO, is that since Redcloak is not swimming in all the colours of the rainbow, which would be a pretty obvious indicator of which spell was active, then he's not under the effect of an Entropic Shield.

Flame of Anor
2012-02-02, 11:33 AM
It doesn't have the "chaos" descriptor, so I don't see why not.


Huh? It's no more "Chaotic" than Disintegrate, which we know Redcloak casts all the time.


It's not an inherently Chaotic spell - doesn't have the descriptor.


It's not a Chaotic spell.]

I retract my comment. Four times. :smalltongue:

Kalmegil
2012-02-02, 11:35 AM
Well that also tells us Haley's is no more than 17.

I don't think it does. Roy's statement that Elan has the highest charisma modifier can reasonably be interpreted to apply only to the people present. The whole point of the conversation with the goblin teen is to find Haley, so Roy has no reason to be discussing her charisma.

Douglas
2012-02-02, 11:40 AM
Entropic Shield has a clearly described visual effect that would be quite obvious, so that's not it. Shield of Faith, on the other hand, is trivially available to Redcloak and would give him at least a +4 deflection bonus. No item or other special consideration is required.

Illven
2012-02-02, 11:53 AM
I don't think it does. Roy's statement that Elan has the highest charisma modifier can reasonably be interpreted to apply only to the people present. The whole point of the conversation with the goblin teen is to find Haley, so Roy has no reason to be discussing her charisma.

Okay fair point.

Da'Shain
2012-02-02, 12:21 PM
No, it's omitted because we know nothing about his dex.Okay. I noticed that Roy had one despite us having no evidence, but I did not notice that DEX scores for non-main characters with no evidence were omitted, my mistake.



It wasn't "passed" because the dragon ranks very low on the "number of character appearances" thread. Julia is listed because she's a direct relative of the main character; Samantha is there because of the grandfather clause, and shouldn't be seen as a standard for entry.Fair enough.

Sr.medusa
2012-02-02, 01:01 PM
Probably it was already talked, but I think we can state that Dorukan have Proficiency in Warhammer as a feat. Maybe per Domain, maybe paying the feat (subpar but posible), maybe for racial proficiency for ootsverse dwarf. In any case, we can asume that he doesn't carry that thing and hits people with a -4?

PD: Sorry for the engrish :tongue:

Aldreck
2012-02-02, 01:39 PM
Can someone please explain how strip #162 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html) displays Roy has the Endurance feat?

Brogen
2012-02-02, 01:47 PM
Can someone please explain how strip #162 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html) displays Roy has the Endurance feat?

Because he's sleeping, or about to sleep, in his armor. Endurance allows him to do that with no penalty, so he feat because otherwise he'd be fatigued the next day. The feat. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#endurance)

Gullintanni
2012-02-02, 01:48 PM
Can someone please explain how strip #162 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html) displays Roy has the Endurance feat?

He's resting in his armor, which causes fatigue. Roy would know this, so without the Endurance feat, he'd be taking his armor off every night before he rested.

That said, in the strip in question, he's not really resting. Not yet. He's just sitting around in his armor with a blanket on top of him. It's possible that he wasn't going to turn in for another hour or so and just wanted to stay prepared in case of a wandering monster.

And on that note, it could also be the case that he doesn't have Endurance, and feels that the benefit of having armor on while resting alone outweighs the drawback of waking up fatigued.

As a matter of fact, if Roy wears Heavy Armor, then the Endurance feat does nothing for him at all, since it doesn't mitigate penalties associated with resting in Heavy Armor...so I doubt he has the Endurance feat at all. I think it's more likely that he's resting with his armor on in case he gets ambushed while he's alone in the woods.

Shale
2012-02-02, 01:50 PM
If you don't have Endurance, you have to take off your armor when you sleep or you wake up fatigued.

Edit: Ninjas everywhere!

Double edit: I believe it's proven elsewhere that Roy wears medium armor.

Gullintanni
2012-02-02, 01:56 PM
Double edit: I believe it's proven elsewhere that Roy wears medium armor.

Yeah one of the earlier comics is used as evidence to suggest that he wears Breast Plate...I imagine because he manages to keep up with Elan. The issue I have with that is that medium armor reduces your base movement speed as well.

I suppose there's the Run action, in which case, you move 4x your speed in Medium armor vs. 3x your speed in Heavy armor, but even in that case, Elan moves 30 ft/round in a chain shirt x 4 while Running for 120 ft/round while Roy moves at 20 ft/round in Breast Plate x4 while Running for 80 ft/round. And if he's carrying Durkon he may be at a heavy load anyway, so the linked comic doesn't do much for me in terms of evidence.

From what I can tell, the only way the linked comic makes sense is if Elan is slowing down so that Roy can keep pace with him. Or Roy also has the Run feat.

Flame of Anor
2012-02-02, 01:57 PM
As a matter of fact, if Roy wears Heavy Armor, then the Endurance feat does nothing for him at all, since it doesn't mitigate penalties associated with resting in Heavy Armor...

But Roy wears Medium Armor. Specifically, a Breastplate.

Gullintanni
2012-02-02, 02:00 PM
But Roy wears Medium Armor. Specifically, a Breastplate.

Evidence if you please? Also note my deconstruction of the comic linked in the Op post.

Never mind. Solved my own dilemma.

Elan - Chain Shirt || 30ft speed || x4 Run for 120ft/rnd.
Roy - Breast Plate || 20ft speed || x4 Run for 80ft/rnd.
Durkon - Full Plate || 20 ft speed || x3 Run for 60ft/rnd.

Roy is slower than Elan, but faster than Durkon. The only way for that to be possible is for Roy to wear Medium Armor vs. Durkon's Heavy Armor. It's why Roy carries Durkon. It also means that Elan is intentionally slowing down in comic 005 so that the two can keep up.

Alternately, Roy may also be wearing Full Plate and have the Run feat, in which case he'd still be faster than Durkon. But at this point you're making a case of Roy + Full Plate and Run vs. Roy + Breast Plate and Endurance.

I'm still not convinced that he HAS the Endurance feat. He may be willing to suck up being Fatigued in order to keep the armor bonus while he sleeps...at least while he's alone.

Morty
2012-02-02, 02:32 PM
Shield of Faith is also supposed to have a visible effect. Since we haven't seen any, I think it more likely that Redcloak has a Ring of Protection. Given that he's a high-level cleric with plenty of resources, creating such would have been easy. Of course, it's all more or less conjecture.

M.A.D
2012-02-03, 06:03 AM
How many spells could Red Cloak cast in 10 minutes?

Once&FutureKing
2012-02-03, 06:11 AM
Can Roy be listed as 12+ for level? It's been a long time since he died, and could easily have gained another level or two since then, which is the same logic for why V is 15+ and not 15.

Kurald Galain
2012-02-03, 07:17 AM
Okay, removed Haley's charisma being lower than Elan again. Also, we've started on a FAQ. Suggestions for the FAQ are welcome (but they have to be, you know, frequently asked, which several of the old FAQ entries weren't any more).


Aye, a minimum 39 modifier is a necessity here.
I agree, but I do not think that this proves he has the feats Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus. There are other ways to get skill bonuses, after all. (edit) that said, a character's skill list in the top posts tells us how many skill points he's put in there, not what his total modifier is.


Okay. I noticed that Roy had one despite us having no evidence, but I did not notice that DEX scores for non-main characters with no evidence were omitted,
Fixed. The idea is to omit all lines that don't actually tell us anything, because the top posts are quite long enough already without that. Giving Hinjo a stat block of "Str we don't know, Dex we don't know either, Con we have no idea" is just clutter.



I'm still not convinced that he HAS the Endurance feat. He may be willing to suck up being Fatigued in order to keep the armor bonus while he sleeps...at least while he's alone.
He's running and charging the next day, and you can't do that while fatigued.


Probably it was already talked, but I think we can state that Dorukan have Proficiency in Warhammer as a feat.
Dorukan is the wizard who built that dungeon. Did you perhaps mean Durkon? :smalltongue:
Considering Durkon uses a hammer all the time, I think it's fair to say he's proficient in it.


How many spells could Red Cloak cast in 10 minutes?
10 minutes equals 100 rounds, so he could cast 100 spells, or 200 if he had Quicken Spell. Except that his spells-per-day limit is quite a bit lower than that.


Can Roy be listed as 12+ for level? It's been a long time since he died, and could easily have gained another level or two since then, which is the same logic for why V is 15+ and not 15.
He already is. Well, actually we should be pretty certain of the Order's exact levels, without a "+".

Ancalagon
2012-02-03, 07:21 AM
Please make the familiar-state of Qarr being disputed. I strongly believe he really does not operate under normal familiar-rules, even if Zz'dtri might think that.

Whatever Qarr is doing here and even if he uses (!) the rules to attach himself as familiar, he is none. If you take his loyalties he even cannot be a real familiar as a familiar is devoted to his master, Qarr certainly is not devoted to Zz'dtri.
We have no in-comic proof Qarr is actually an familiar but a comment by Zz'dtri who is expected to be deceived and a lot of reason to assume the relationship between those two is actually different.

Hereby, I formally dispute Qarr's state as Familiar (working as outlined by the rules) of the Dark Elf Zz'drti.

Sr.medusa
2012-02-03, 07:30 AM
Yeah, I mean Durkon, żbut how awesome would be Dorukan with a warhammer?:smallcool:

Gullintanni
2012-02-03, 07:50 AM
He's running and charging the next day, and you can't do that while fatigued.


Actually, the next reference to running or charging, be it visual evidence or actual mention by a character in the comic is here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html) and it's Roy telling us that he can't figure out how to charge.

Granted this implies that he's spry enough to attempt the maneuver, but we can't really be certain of that.

Regardless, you'll note that Roy doesn't actually rest in comic 162. Rather, he has an epiphany, packs up his gear and hastens off to rescue Elan. Now, he could have been resting in 155 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html) during the time skip in the last panel, but it is heavily implied in comic 153 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html) that he's using that time to hunt for Starmetal.

Judging from the chain of events, the most logical conclusion to me is that Roy never actually rested. He made camp and began making preparations to rest, but he had his epiphany and decided to take immediate action rather than delay. So again, we have no real proof for the Endurance feat.

FlawedParadigm
2012-02-03, 10:18 AM
I feel my post on the second page regarding Haley's Charisma being 19 or less was ignored. Haven't seen anyone address it or any change in her stat block.

Lintecarka
2012-02-03, 11:25 AM
Regardless, you'll note that Roy doesn't actually rest in comic 162. Rather, he has an epiphany, packs up his gear and hastens off to rescue Elan. Now, he could have been resting in 155 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html) during the time skip in the last panel, but it is heavily implied in comic 153 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html) that he's using that time to hunt for Starmetal.

Then agan he is talking about his dad 'suddenly disrupting' his sleep, this stuck me as a hint he has been sleeping before, but once awake is unable to resume sleep due to feeling guilty. I don't see why he would march in the darkness way past the time the bandits went to sleep.
This view could be reinforced by the fact that Roy has a good idea where to go (it is later revealed that he has a map) so if he walked all the time while being off-panel Durkon had to run quite a bit before reaching him. Not impossible given the next action occours the following morning and Durkons long lasting panic could be explained by the rule of funny, but again its not that likely.

I'd say its the best bet that he has the endurance feat, as we never see him putting off that armor, nor is there any graphical hint of him being fatigued in daily routine.

Gullintanni
2012-02-03, 12:14 PM
I agree, but I do not think that this proves he has the feats Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus. There are other ways to get skill bonuses, after all. (edit) that said, a character's skill list in the top posts tells us how many skill points he's put in there, not what his total modifier is.


Sorry, didn't catch that you'd referenced me twice. Agreed. No evidence for Skill Focus and its Epic counterpart. Skills are incredibly easy to optimize in D&D. I'm just advocating for a more realistic representation of his skill mod.


Then agan he is talking about his dad 'suddenly disrupting' his sleep, this stuck me as a hint he has been sleeping before, but once awake is unable to resume sleep due to feeling guilty. I don't see why he would march in the darkness way past the time the bandits went to sleep.
This view could be reinforced by the fact that Roy has a good idea where to go (it is later revealed that he has a map) so if he walked all the time while being off-panel Durkon had to run quite a bit before reaching him. Not impossible given the next action occours the following morning and Durkons long lasting panic could be explained by the rule of funny, but again its not that likely.

I don't really see the same thing there. Again, we have no evidence that Roy was asleep, only that he's hoping for his father to show up. Even if he was, he didn't get a full nights rest. Per the rules for 3.5, eliminating fatigue requires 8 full hours of rest, so he'll be making Constitution checks all day long or be fatigued anyway.

I don't know...all I see is that Roy made camp, and that he's hoping for a visit from his father.

Flame of Anor
2012-02-03, 12:49 PM
I'm with Kurald and Lintecarka on the Endurance thing.

Chronos
2012-02-03, 03:12 PM
With as many feats as a high-level human fighter is, I'm willing to accept a fairly low standard of proof for Roy having a particular core feat.

And I agree with Ancalagon's dispute of Qaar as a familiar.

ti'esar
2012-02-03, 06:13 PM
Shouldn't the "Disputed" note on Elan's rapier be after the "silver" part, and not the "+3 keen rapier"?

Flame of Anor
2012-02-03, 07:00 PM
Shouldn't the "Disputed" note on Elan's rapier be after the "silver" part, and not the "+3 keen rapier"?

Yes, I think I mentioned that earlier. It's probably just one of those things which haven't been gotten around to yet with all the business of getting the thread started again.

Lvl45DM!
2012-02-03, 08:10 PM
How exactly would Qarr trick Z-man into thinking he had a familiar? Isn't there like special bonds and magic binding them?

Flame of Anor
2012-02-03, 08:19 PM
How exactly would Qarr trick Z-man into thinking he had a familiar? Isn't there like special bonds and magic binding them?

Yes, I'm pretty sure Zz'dtri would notice if they didn't have share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, and all that. Couldn't Z just have some feat, if Qarr is too high-powered for his level? I don't recall how Improved Familiar or whatever works.

Kurald Galain
2012-02-04, 06:04 AM
Whatever Qarr is doing here and even if he uses (!) the rules to attach himself as familiar, he is none. If you take his loyalties he even cannot be a real familiar as a familiar is devoted to his master, Qarr certainly is not devoted to Zz'dtri.
Interestingly, the rules on familiars do not require the familiar to be devoted to its master. There's nothing in the rules stopping a familiar (especially an improved one) from having his own agenda, from abandoning his master whenever he feels like it, or even from attacking his master. Because hey, if you strike a bargain with a devil, what did you expect was going to happen?


Shouldn't the "Disputed" note on Elan's rapier be after the "silver" part, and not the "+3 keen rapier"?
Sure. However, didn't this cease being disputed when it was shown that Elan's rapier is visibly silver-colored in that comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html), whereas it was black before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0592.html)? It's possible that Elan had his rapier silvered after noticing in the pit fiend battle how useful that is. It would cost him a whopping 90 gp to have that done, so that's easily within his WBL.


I think Haley's Cha can safely be stated as 12-19 instead of 12+. If she has maxed Bluff, but also says Hide is her best skill, then her Cha modifier must be less her Dex modifier. She didn't say it was tied for her best skill, after all.
That's a good point. Added.

Kish
2012-02-04, 06:08 AM
Sure. However, didn't this cease being disputed when it was shown that Elan's rapier is visibly silver-colored in that comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html), whereas it was black before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0592.html)?
No, "Elan's rapier is differently-colored between those two panels" most definitely does not constitute universally-accepted proof that it's been turned into silver.

ti'esar
2012-02-04, 06:10 AM
Sure. However, didn't this cease being disputed when it was shown that Elan's rapier is visibly silver-colored in that comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html), whereas it was black before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0592.html)? It's possible that Elan had his rapier silvered after noticing in the pit fiend battle how useful that is. It would cost him a whopping 90 gp to have that done, so that's easily within his WBL.

I'm pretty sure that's a matter of background color and not an actual change in the depiction of the rapier, but I'm too tired to check whether it shows up black again afterwards - anyone?

Ancalagon
2012-02-04, 06:51 AM
{{scrubbed}}

Silver Swift
2012-02-04, 07:38 AM
Edit: never mind

Shale
2012-02-04, 08:40 AM
{{scrubbed the post}}

"Disputed" means there's evidence both ways. Absent a rule that says a familiar loses free will when it enlists, or otherwise is forced to be devoted to its master, what evidence is there that Qarr is somehow faking his familiar-ness? If it just meant "somebody doesn't think this is true, for any reason at all," then all Evil alignments (except possibly Xykon's) would be tagged.

Edit: Bear in mind that in order to fool a wizard with knowledge of his own class features (which non-Belkar characters seem to have) into thinking he's a familiar, Qarr would have to be able to grant Altertness at close range, deliver touch-range spells, mirror self-targeting spells and enable the scry-on-familiar ability.

Flame of Anor
2012-02-04, 09:15 AM
Sure. However, didn't this cease being disputed when it was shown that Elan's rapier is visibly silver-colored in that comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html), whereas it was black before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0592.html)? It's possible that Elan had his rapier silvered after noticing in the pit fiend battle how useful that is. It would cost him a whopping 90 gp to have that done, so that's easily within his WBL.

That makes it slightly plausible, but it definitely doesn't make it certain. We have multiple examples of things changing color depending on the background--see, for example, the demon-roaches' speech color.

zimmerwald1915
2012-02-04, 09:24 AM
That makes it slightly plausible, but it definitely doesn't make it certain. We have multiple examples of things changing color depending on the background--see, for example, the demon-roaches' speech color.
The problem with this line of reasoning is that black would be easier to see than silver against the background of #684. As it is, whenever Elan is not holding the rapier blade in front of his own body or the body of someone else, that is, whenever he's holding it against the background of peach-colored sky and light brown far distance, the rapier blade is difficult to see. Meanwhile, silver would have been easier to see than black against the dark blue and cerulean background of #592, and even against the bodies of Kubota's samurai. The demon-roaches' speech color changes to be more visible against the background, such as the MitD's box, not less. Unless there's some reason Elan's rapier blade should be difficult to see, the background color should not be a good reason to change it in the way we've seen it change.

Gift Jeraff
2012-02-04, 11:19 AM
"Disputed" means there's evidence both ways. Absent a rule that says a familiar loses free will when it enlists, or otherwise is forced to be devoted to its master, what evidence is there that Qarr is somehow faking his familiar-ness?Also, we have in-comic evidence that a familiar can be completely disloyal to their master: the trial and the battle against the death knight.

Ancalagon
2012-02-04, 11:20 AM
"Disputed" means there's evidence both ways.

Not really. For example, things here are considered valid by some because some people claim something that is obviously (to me) is a casual throwaway joke would proof something.
Some of those arguments led to heated debates that led to the old thread locked and to me this leaves this impression: Apparently, it is not needed that "sane evidence" is provided to make something disputed (as throwaway-jokes that lead to ridiculous conclusions (imo) are not sane evidence). Apparently, it is enough to make something disputes that someone strongly disagrees and as long as this feeling can half-way be understood (even if not agreed to), then something is disputed.

Disputed is there to prevent flames from bursting out in this thread (and as such leading to the thread's demise).

And this here is one of those cases and I think my dispute is not more crazy than some of the things we discussed in the past. Actually, I think saying that Qarr probably operates under a different paradigm than "normal" familiars which leads to him being none at all is saner than basing something on a throwaway joke.
Qarr using (possibly!) some functions of a familiar to appear to Zz'drti as one changes nothing about the spirit behing all it.

As such, I think the dispute needs to taken seriously. Or, to put it the other way around: If the dispute can lead to heated arguments which again can lead to flames which again can lead to some moderator hammering the thread down, you should take it serious.


A familiar (as anything in D&D) is about something and the rules are only there to somehow organise that. I think a "familiar" who has no interest at all to actually serve his master but to deceive him for a short term is not what the rules intend. You might disagree it is stated in the comic but I find it (at this point, future strips might make me reconsider) that it is very obvious that Qarr should not be treated as familiar (even if he might operate under the rules to deceive Zz'drti (which we do not know, btw)).

In general I'd like to ask this: Do you seriously tell me you cannot understand (not agree to!) my problem with Qarr as familiar? Because if it even remotely appears as "valid line of thought" the state has to be disputed.

(And actually, it has to be marked as such to take the fire out of a thread no matter what. DISPUTED is not there to indicate something, it is there to prevent threads from burning. But I will not abuse that, I just want to point it out to you).

Shale
2012-02-04, 12:34 PM
I initially thought you had a good point, then I looked at the SRD and saw that despite my first impression, there's no rule that says the familiar has to be loyal to, obey or even like its master. Generally they will, sure, but Qarr's a devil. Holding to the wording of the rules while twisting their meaning is not what I'd call shocking behavior.

Kish
2012-02-04, 12:36 PM
Unlike Ancalagon, I think Qarr is, in fact, Zz'dtri's familiar.

However, I agree with Ancalagon that it should be regarded as disputed, since he doesn't see it that way, and I have a much easier time seeing his case than seeing the case for one side of some other things that are disputed.

Douglas
2012-02-04, 01:50 PM
In general I'd like to ask this: Do you seriously tell me you cannot understand (not agree to!) my problem with Qarr as familiar? Because if it even remotely appears as "valid line of thought" the state has to be disputed.
I understand that you feel familiars should be loyal to their masters and that Qarr not being loyal to Zz'dtri conflicts with that for you. However, unless you can find a published statement from WotC (preferably in a rule book or the SRD) to back that up, I disagree that this is sufficient by itself to merit a disputed tag. It was stated directly in comic as a fact, and that's one of the strongest kinds of evidence possible for this thread.


(And actually, it has to be marked as such to take the fire out of a thread no matter what. DISPUTED is not there to indicate something, it is there to prevent threads from burning. But I will not abuse that, I just want to point it out to you).
"Disputed" is there to prevent threads from burning by indicating something.

This thread's purpose is to document a general consensus about stats. Disputed tags are a way to indicate no general consensus exists on a particular point because there are substantial numbers of posters on both sides for that point. One person disagreeing with something should not, in my opinion, get a disputed tag. If you get three or four more people joining you (by which I mean agreeing that your interpretation is the better one in their opinion, not that they'd be willing to grant you a disputed tag despite thinking you're wrong), then I'd agree a disputed tag is appropriate.

EmperorSarda
2012-02-04, 02:57 PM
A familiar (as anything in D&D) is about something and the rules are only there to somehow organise that. I think a "familiar" who has no interest at all to actually serve his master but to deceive him for a short term is not what the rules intend. You might disagree it is stated in the comic but I find it (at this point, future strips might make me reconsider) that it is very obvious that Qarr should not be treated as familiar (even if he might operate under the rules to deceive Zz'drti (which we do not know, btw)).


For traditional familiars and going along with the old jokes, familiars are just another implement of the Wizard/Sorcerer class as seen near the beginning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) of the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html). But even still, with such humor there are times when even the familiar will bow out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html).

Yes, the only evidence to Qarr being a familiar is Z saying that he now has a familiar, but shouldn't that be enough? Yes Qarr has his own agenda, but in a story such as this, even with personality of Blackwing, he isn't just a mindless part of V's arsenal.

Though Qarr's intentions may be against the spirit of having a familiar (And Z could be fooled into thinking that Qarr is loyal, given how Qarr gave him all V's psychological weaknesses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html)), I think that rules and story-wise that until otherwise said in comic, that Qarr should be listed as a familiar to Z.

Also, given how Z has catered his very build to defeat V, something others in the comic hardly do, being specifically mindful of his build set, I think Z would notice if he did not have the bonds and bonuses that come with having a familiar. Far easier to be tricked into thinking that Qarr is loyal or that the planar coordinates of the Demiplane of Extremely Painful Torture (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0803.html) are actually the coordinates to the Plane of Ranch Dressing.

Ancalagon
2012-02-04, 03:20 PM
I think something should be disputed if there is no proof for one way to see it but other ways to see it are legit in themselves.

A pure opinion does not count, so "I have the gut feeling it is this or that way but I cannot give more reasons for that" should not and never warrant a DISPUTE. Also arguments that are internally broken or are simply based on false premises should not count.

But if we have no proof and a different way of seeing it is in itself valid (no matter if you agree or disagree) and more than one person agrees to it (giving reasons!), it should be disputed.

Note that I myself do not want to exclude the possibility that Qarr is a "real" familiar or that the reasons people mentioned to address my point are wrong. I see that as valid way but we have no proof at all but some reason to assume it's acttually more complicated. In weighting those two positions, I simply put more weight on the "we do not know" side and as such come out differently than the official standpoint.
Therefore, it should be DISPUTED until we have proof one way or the other.

Either that or find a way to dissolve my concerns in regard to this (argueing from the comic).

I could also live with it if we introduced a higher resolution into all this, like marking the results of the threads in some way.
NO MARK means it is proven. The comic or Rich states something in an explicit way.
SHACKY (could be yellow, appended with some index S or whatever) means the fact is likely, there is some consensus but we have no real proof and other interpretations might be valid (and have been mentioned at least once). I think this field is a good one as Rich does not use the rules sometimes so we here have to face the truth there are and will be many grey zones.
DISPUTED is stronger than SHACKY. We have no conclusive proof and there are people who feature a different (logically somewhat valid) interpretation and/or simply will/cannot agree to the listing as it is.

In this case, I'd be content if Qarr would be marked as SHACKY (however that happens). I'm in general a fan of indicating the quality of a conclusion and not all conclusions that are noted here as fact are of the same quality. Some things are deducted or agreed upon, others are proven.

I think this finer resolution would actually be a good idea.

Anyway, while I fully understand the reasons for listing Qarr as familiar I still do not see this as proven and I also do not think it is likely.
This of course entails some personal idea what familiars are and what not. I do not demand explicit loyalty or even friendship towards the master. But Qarr takes all normal "familiar relationships" to a very different level as he really has no intention at all to be a normal familiar beyond tricking the Linear Guild (via Zz'dtri) into doing the "right" thing (or refrain from the wrong thing).
In moving Vaarsuvius to the "safe" dimension, he actually acts against the explicit intention of his master (which is already a betrayal. While Familiars might be allowed to not like their master or vanish if they are neglected too much to act as meatshield for one round, they should not outright betray them (if they really are familiars)).
So Qarr is actually a very special case outside of the discussion what familiars are and what not in general.

And I fully agree to Kish that some things have been disputed on a more shacky ground (but that is personal interpretation again).

Edit: also note I do not only go into this long debate out of some sort of magnificent interesting in Qarr or his listing as familiar, but I really think we should make clear what is DISPUTED and when it applies in what way. Or in general: How we can organise this thread in the best way possible and I noticed that it is totally unclear what disputed is actually meant to mean.
For example, if we go as strict as Shale mentioned (which is a valid approach!) I risk the prophecy it will not be able to prevent some of the flames or even only arguments we saw in the past.

Douglas
2012-02-04, 04:17 PM
A pure opinion does not count, so "I have the gut feeling it is this or that way but I cannot give more reasons for that" should not and never warrant a DISPUTE. Also arguments that are internally broken or are simply based on false premises should not count.
Agreed.

While Familiars might be allowed to not like their master or vanish if they are neglected too much to act as meatshield for one round, they should not outright betray them (if they really are familiars).
And that right there, which I believe is the whole basis of your argument, is an opinion that you have yet to provide evidence - in particular a rules quote or reference - for.

Meanwhile, someone who is in an excellent position to know definitively one way or the other by noticing the presence or absence of the rules mechanical effects of a familiar has explicitly stated that Qarr is a familiar. Unless you are prepared to contend that Zz'dtri has failed to notice the lack of A) free Alertness depending on Qarr's location, B) an empathic link, C) the ability to share spells with Qarr, plus a few more abilities depending on level, then either Zz'dtri is lying or Qarr is his familiar.

On the subject of an extra tag type, I agree that it could be useful, but I don't think it should be applied to Qarr - the comic has, in fact, confirmed his familiar status in an explicit way through Zz'dtri's statement. Oh, and the word is "shaky" - there's no c in it.

EmperorSarda
2012-02-04, 04:59 PM
Anyway, while I fully understand the reasons for listing Qarr as familiar I still do not see this as proven and I also do not think it is likely.
This of course entails some personal idea what familiars are and what not. I do not demand explicit loyalty or even friendship towards the master. But Qarr takes all normal "familiar relationships" to a very different level as he really has no intention at all to be a normal familiar beyond tricking the Linear Guild (via Zz'dtri) into doing the "right" thing (or refrain from the wrong thing).
In moving Vaarsuvius to the "safe" dimension, he actually acts against the explicit intention of his master (which is already a betrayal. While Familiars might be allowed to not like their master or vanish if they are neglected too much to act as meatshield for one round, they should not outright betray them (if they really are familiars)).
So Qarr is actually a very special case outside of the discussion what familiars are and what not in general.



Question, in the Players Guide does the description about familiars say anything about loyalty?

Yes, I know in the traditional tabletop sense that the DM would be foolish to try and play the familiar as anything but loyal to the player, but this is not a tabletop game.

Yes, in the traditional tabletop spirit of a familiar, Qarr does not fit the assumptions of a familiar.

But looking in both the DMG at Improved Familiar and at the Players Manual, it surprisingly says nothing of loyalty. Only the mechanics of having a familiar, that the master and familiar are magically linked.
I am of the opinion though that until it is proved that Z is lying (and didn't get the familiar for the info on V and to distract V's familiar in preparation for the fight) then we should assume that Z is telling the truth.

If we want to put the 'shaky' or 'disputed' or whatever which label on it to reflect disagreements... Then go for it. I don't care.

However, if a disagreement on opinion with no backing on the rules deserves a 'disputed' label, then everything is going to be disputed.

Chronos
2012-02-04, 06:24 PM
Huh, I always assumed that there was a rule about familiars being loyal to their master, but if we can't find it, then I (speaking only for myself) withdraw my dispute.

This might also come as something of a shock to a would-be Pun-Pun.

Thunderbuckets
2012-02-04, 10:31 PM
In other Geekery thoughts, Durkon's possessions don't list prayer candles from here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0692.html). Candles are consumables, obviously, but given that we've seen them used multiple times, (not to mention every time he's been shown to pray for spells on-panel, he's used them) leads to the theory that including them in his inventory is probably accurate.

Flame of Anor
2012-02-05, 12:12 AM
In other Geekery thoughts, Durkon's possessions don't list prayer candles from here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0692.html). Candles are consumables, obviously, but given that we've seen them used multiple times, (not to mention every time he's been shown to pray for spells on-panel, he's used them) leads to the theory that including them in his inventory is probably accurate.

Ah, good catch. I agree.

Lvl45DM!
2012-02-05, 12:33 AM
NO MARK means it is proven. The comic or Rich states something in an explicit way.
SHACKY (could be yellow, appended with some index S or whatever) means the fact is likely, there is some consensus but we have no real proof and other interpretations might be valid (and have been mentioned at least once). I think this field is a good one as Rich does not use the rules sometimes so we here have to face the truth there are and will be many grey zones.
DISPUTED is stronger than SHACKY. We have no conclusive proof and there are people who feature a different (logically somewhat valid) interpretation and/or simply will/cannot agree to the listing as it is.[/LIST]


A) What is Shacky? Not a word we get down here in Australia.
B) This new system means that there would be no mark next to Qarr's familiar status as it is directly stated by the comic.
C) I think its a bit unnecessary to have three definitions but DISPUTED needs more clarity. I think disputed means it has been argued for a while and no consensus can be reached. You shouldn't just chuck up disputed tags as soon as someone has a worry even if its very valid. It should be discussed first.

ti'esar
2012-02-05, 01:34 AM
A) What is Shacky? Not a word we get down here in Australia.

I'm guess it's either a misspelling or variant spelling of "shaky".

Also, I've been looking through the archives, and it really does look like Elan's rapier changed to a silver color sometime between the end of the Therkla/Kubota arc and the fight with the slavers - it wasn't that color before and it's consistently been it since. So I'm coming around to the view that he really did have it silvered at some point.

Ancalagon
2012-02-05, 06:48 AM
"Shaky" (or shacky ;)) is actually a bad suggestion for this. Call it "unproven" or "tier 2 proven", or "arguable" - or come up with something better. All that is important to me is some way to indicate how good the listed conclusion is (and I think the binary system for the "confirmed" entries we have now is not enough as some are really solid and others merely agreed upon)..

The problem is that the rules do not explicitly state the familiar must be at least a bit loyal, but I think we all know it as to work that way.
But let us find some rule. They state, in some way the Master and the Familiar are practically one being. Given the secrets and different agenda Qarr has, that cannot be, as Zz'dtri would learn too much. The ability "Empathic Link" is clearly not "Telepathic Link" and as such Zz'dtri should be able to gain more than just the telepathic connection the rules mentions ("empathy", as in at least discern emotions). I doubt Qarr can affort to confudlle himself too much with the person he wants to deceive, therefore, there must be something different in the familiar-relationship than in normal familiar-relationships.
You can argue now that Vaarsuvius and his familiar also have no deep relationship and as such OotS-familiars can be very much beings on their own.

The rules state: "A familiar serves as a companion and a servant". I find it highly argueable that Qarr considers himself a companion. He is no helper, no friend.
Furthermore, he very clearly is no servant (as he explicitly twists a wish of the master when giving him the wrong coordinates) and as we do know he has an agenda very different from that of his master. I think the servant-section pretty much excludes him from being a true familiar, as he only serves himself and the IFCC (if you argue othervise and claim he indeed does serve Zz'dtri more than the IFCC, please proof that).

Even apart from the rules, I still maintain the position that Qarr might be a familiar according to the rules, but not to the spirit of that and that difference should be marked - somehow.

Sidenote for the future: Should Qarr break the connection on his own (which is something the rules do not seem to allow and even Blackwing had to stay, no matter how he disliked Vaarsuvius), we had a relatively solid proof he was no familar.

M.A.D
2012-02-05, 07:41 AM
Ancalagon, please. If you don't have adequate evident that would fit the requirement to actually merit a "disputed" tag, don't try to change those requirements. It's demeaning.

As for Quarr, he's a glorified class feature now, and said feature has no description indicating that he cannot outright betray Z. I distinctly remember Blackwing leaving V to his death once, during the batter for Azure City.

Ancalagon
2012-02-05, 08:21 AM
Ancalagon, please. If you don't have adequate evident that would fit the requirement to actually merit a "disputed" tag, don't try to change those requirements. It's demeaning.

"Disputed" = "prevent the thread from having to get locked due to flames over silly details". If you look at it, it really is nothing more but a way to keep the moderators from having to actively moderate here and getting into nitpicking details all the time or having to face the choice to take a thread away many people like. If you look at it (and I hope it does not turn out as this in the end!), there are no other requirements but some ******** coming in and screaming long enough loud enough.

The rest is what we currently discuss about. What is disputed? And is the view Qarr is no familiar actually valid and should be disputed.

You insulting me out of the blue without adding anything constructive to the discussion is not helping, especially as I am not entirely certain you made the effort to actually try to follow what I tried to outline.

Blackwing leaving is different, I think. Vaarusivus had treated the bird very badly and demanded from him to die for nothing (getting one round before he dies himself). Blackwing's death would have accomplished nothing and Vaarsuvius just asked for that because he was out of other options.
Would you put your life down for someone who has treated you badly and your sacrifice would accomplish nothing at all? Yes, I thought so.

Qarr (it is Qarr, not Quarr) goes beyond that.

Samiel_Fronsac
2012-02-05, 10:00 AM
Ancalagon,

This thread always worked with the assumption that if something was said directly and clearly in the comics, then it's true. Zz'dtri himself said Qarr is his familiar.

And there's no indication otherwise. Your belief about what a familiar can or can't do isn't backed for any rules at all. Then, there's no proof to dispute the fact.

If later a comic evidence or Word of Rich states otherwise, everyone here will gladly agree with the change.

Until such a time, I ask you, as a favor for the continued existence of the discussions, please, just let it be.

Samiel.

RMS Oceanic
2012-02-05, 10:04 AM
Samiel has summed up what I was going to say precisely: I see no reason not to take Z and Qarr at their word at this time, so I don't see a reason to flag it as disputed.

Lvl45DM!
2012-02-05, 10:41 AM
The validity of Ancalagon's specific argument aside, the point of "What does disputed mean?" is a good one. I don't see it outlined anywhere. If it is, direct me to it please. Otherwise it would be useful to more clearly define it. This is Geekery afterall, clearly defining things is the defining trait.

Ancalagon
2012-02-05, 10:51 AM
Ok, read my words: I dispute this. And other things have been disputed for much more ridiculous reasons than this.

I dispute this claim and have given my reasons and also given where I think you are off (not that you are wrong, but that the "proof" you have is too weak to have this undisputed).
You do not agree, you do not think it is disputed, but that is not the point. Your opinion does not matter and does not count in deciding if it is "disputed", the only fact that matters in the end is that it is disputed and people are willing to argue over it. Rules and even reason do not have to play any role at all.

If I was mean I'd explode the thread now, claiming the whole Curator-thing does not work out as hoped, we'd flame and argue about this and Qarr for three or ten pages over this totally minor thing (!) and the topic of "Class and Level Geekery" would be done and over. I'm not doing this.
But mark my words: As soon as someone comes along who will not simply shut up when you say "Well, you dispute it, have basically reasons, but it does not count, I'm deciding what is disputed and what not and this is awesome as it is" you are exactly at the point where the old thread got locked. You are on very thin ice with all this here. My impression was this geekery here is only tolerated. I'd hate to see this as I like this thread very much but you are totally marching right there.

You did not even bother to acknowledge what I wrote about the Dispute-flag in general. Do you still think it has anything to do with the actual comic and was not some pure meta-system to keep the forum in a state of peace? I wish we could base disputes on facts, but sometimes we have to work with what we have (and I still think what I brough up is enough to move the Nucleus of Annoyance from "Confirmed" (as it is now, which it is not) to "Disputed" (or the weaker state of disputed I suggested; a suggestion I still think that makes sense but that you did not address in your attempt to "moderate" this down)).

Of course we could now ask "Do you understand (independently of agreement or not) the line of argueing as valid view". I think most people had to answer with a "yes" (even if it might be a "yes, but...") but I do not care enough about this.

And the, I think, ridiculous thing is of course that we all know that Qarr cannot be a true familiar as the story has him on a very clear side - which is not Zz'drti's. You are willing to go into this heated discussion that has the potential to turn into flames and burn the thread over something you know will be shown wrong as the story unfolds just because you accept a very shaky comment by a very likely deceived character as total proof? In all honesty: This is beyond my capability to express in words.

Have a nice day. Do not bother to mark Qarr as disputed now (unless you want to), as it is very clear by now the new thread-rules and the addition of the DISPUTE flag has simply failed to take the hum... potential out of these discussions over these totally puny things. I thought we had a solution for these cases, but I was wrong. That is sad.

What I find even sader is that my attempts to talk about "what is disputed" did not got picked up. My Qarr-complaint wasn't that much about Qarr but more about the general question that is still open and that really needs a definition and we need to be very clear on what a dispute is. I have dropped my opinion quite a few times already.

Gift Jeraff
2012-02-05, 11:45 AM
Speaking of Qarr, there was a minor disagreement in the previous thread whether he's using Lesser Telepathic Bond or whether Rich simply forgot that imps are among the few devils that don't get telepathy (or just decided they should have it), which is similar to Sabine's Plane Shift ability (which succubi don't have). Since he never said any spell name, I think that would qualify as disputed.

Likewise, I don't think Celia has Lightning Bolt. She's already listed as having the ability to shoot lightning out of her fingers, plus I can't find a strip where she uses the lightning thing and says a spell name, nor does her magic aura appear to show up. Also, it doesn't quite look like V/Xykon/Qarr's lightning bolts. (Whenever she uses it, there's a ball of electricity around her hands.) Does anyone else agree?

Kurald Galain
2012-02-05, 12:19 PM
Speaking of Qarr, there was a minor disagreement in the previous thread whether he's using Lesser Telepathic Bond or whether Rich simply forgot that imps are among the few devils that don't get telepathy (or just decided they should have it),
That would be a point if we had seen a lot of devils in OOTS that are all using telepathy - which we have not. It is hardly common knowledge that most devils have telepathy (indeed, the most commonly encountered devils don't).

More to the point, devil telepathy doesn't work that way: it has a short range, whereas Qarr's telepathy is long-ranged (and so is the spell). That's clear evidence against him using devil telepathy. So the telepathy can either be explained by a Core low-level sorcerer spell cast by a character known to be a sorcerer, or by assuming two separate houserules or mistakes on Rich's part.

Douglas
2012-02-05, 12:52 PM
Ok, read my words: I dispute this. And other things have been disputed for much more ridiculous reasons than this.
You dispute it, but every single other person who has voiced an opinion here disagrees with you.

The purpose of this thread is to list what the general consensus is. The disputed tag's purpose, as I understand it, is to note cases where there is no general consensus beyond an argument with no clear and overwhelming majority. So far, the argument about Qarr's status as a familiar looks like a dozen or two people saying yes and you - just you - saying no. That looks like a pretty solid consensus to me.


You do not agree, you do not think it is disputed, but that is not the point. Your opinion does not matter and does not count in deciding if it is "disputed", the only fact that matters in the end is that it is disputed and people are willing to argue over it. Rules and even reason do not have to play any role at all.
One individual person is willing to argue over it. Singular. Compared to the number of people who participate in this thread, that is nowhere near sufficient to reasonably contest the fact that the consensus is against you. Get a few more people agreeing with you about Qarr and then and only then will I agree a disputed tag is merited.

At this point it isn't really about rules and evidence any more, it's about the fact that you are the one and only person advocating your viewpoint while this thread is supposed to document the overall consensus.

Ancalagon
2012-02-05, 01:28 PM
I did not want to go on, but... so far, not that many people have voiced their opinion. Only one addressed the validity of the problem instead of voicing their conclusion and that person agreed it should get listed. Actually, as I think of it, someone else already agreed it should get listed as disputed.

But as I said, I'll drop the issue. Which does not make you right, though. You are still presenting something as rock solid which it is not.

Beyond people asked for excerpts from rules, but no one then bothered to comment that, then. I'm not going to go on with that.

And you are still not addressing the question if it might be a good thing to indicate the quality of a conclusion, so I assume you dislike that. I'm also not bringing this up again.

I think the problem of this thread is that it is presented as "science" while it is not and takes itself much more serious than the examined matter deserves.

Flame of Anor
2012-02-05, 02:11 PM
You insulting me out of the blue without adding anything constructive to the discussion is not helping, especially as I am not entirely certain you made the effort to actually try to follow what I tried to outline.

I agree. What M.A.D. said was completely uncalled for.


Ancalagon,

This thread always worked with the assumption that if something was said directly and clearly in the comics, then it's true. Zz'dtri himself said Qarr is his familiar.

That very rule--more specifically, how to define "directly and clearly"--is what got the last thread locked. So I don't think "always worked" is a good way to describe it.


Ok, read my words: I dispute this.

If I may paraphrase Voltaire--

I do not agree with your dispute, but I will defend to the death your right to dispute it.

Yes, the evidence for Qarr not being a familiar is quite weak. But is it really that much harder to put a [disputed] tag than it is to have these endless arguments? Arguments only work when both sides aren't set in their position; otherwise they're just shouting matches that get people infracted.

Ancalagon
2012-02-05, 02:25 PM
Actually, I have ended my argument. I still think the argument for Qarr being a familiar is standing on very thin ice, I still think the other options makes so much sense it should be reflected in the entry (we have a flag for that now), I still think how the discussion here went was exactly how it would have went in the old thread... but I end my argument. It's just too silly to go on (but if this goes on as it did, I really see only blackness in the future of this project).

The side "We refuse to see the other way as possibly valid, even if we do not agree" has won (unless someone else picks up the flame and carry it on fighting for marking things as what they are).

Samiel_Fronsac
2012-02-05, 03:06 PM
The problem is not in the ruleset if some people just outright refuse to abide by it.

What is the only thing more obvious than a character sayin' he has a class feature?

The Giant sayin' the same. And he rarely pronounces about this kind of thing at all.

If we don't accept clear statements from the characters anymore, what do we have?

Only a word of the Giant, and this won't take us very far. We could just close the thread.

If we start to tag everything in which one person disagrees with a dozen others?

I bet not a single part of those character sheets would end without a "disputed" tag.

I disagree with some things there myself, strongly, but most people agree, and you know?

Fine by me. If proper evidence appears, I'll come back here and things gonna change.

When I don't have proof, I'll try to forget about it and keep discussing other points.

This is the way the C&LG thread can survive.

What I'll ask of the people who really want the perpetuation of this thread?

Sometimes it's split, sometimes the majority disagrees. Learn when let go.

---

Now I'm speaking directly to all parts involved. Can you hear in peace, please?

We'll have to tag something as "disputed" when the members become more or less divided.

We'll have to take direct statements of characters as proof, until they contradict themselves.

There's no point in discussing the matters otherwise.

And please, whoever wants to discuss this further, Kurald, RMS and myself have PM boxes just as everyone else in this forum. Write to any of us, or anyone with who you have a disagreement. Do it by PM and help keep the peace in the thread itself.

Thank you.

Samiel.

Gift Jeraff
2012-02-05, 03:17 PM
That would be a point if we had seen a lot of devils in OOTS that are all using telepathy - which we have not. It is hardly common knowledge that most devils have telepathy (indeed, the most commonly encountered devils don't).

More to the point, devil telepathy doesn't work that way: it has a short range, whereas Qarr's telepathy is long-ranged (and so is the spell). That's clear evidence against him using devil telepathy. So the telepathy can either be explained by a Core low-level sorcerer spell cast by a character known to be a sorcerer, or by assuming two separate houserules or mistakes on Rich's part.A fair point, but regular Telepathic Bond is available to an 8-12 sorcerer, so his entry should at least say "either Telepathic Bond or Lesser Telepathic Bond."

RMS Oceanic
2012-02-05, 03:29 PM
A fair point, but regular Telepathic Bond is available to an 8-12 sorcerer, so his entry should at least say "either Telepathic Bond or Lesser Telepathic Bond."

I'm inclined to agree: Since Qarr's sorceror levels have been determined by sources other than Telepathic Bond, it doesn't hurt to show the line is a little murky, like that obscured spell on Xykon's Spell List.

Kalmegil
2012-02-05, 03:58 PM
You dispute it, but every single other person who has voiced an opinion here disagrees with you.

If that matters, then count me as disagreeing with you, and agreeing that the familiar status of Qarr should be disputed.

Evidence that Qarr is a familiar: Zz'dtri saying "I have [a familiar], too." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html) In essence, we have one character's word for it. Certainly strong enough evidence to add Qarr as a familiar to the list of Zz'dtri's class features.

However, after this simple pronouncement, we are practically bombarded with evidence that Zz'dtri might be wrong in his assessment of Qarr's true status:

Here, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html)Qarr says he was introduced by a friend of a friend, very likely referring to Sabine (a friend of the IFC). This establishes the first hint that Qarr might not really be working for Zz'dtri. Note that the IFC is upfront with Qarr about most of the LG not knowing that they are agents of the IFC. In the same comic, Blackwing accuses Qarr of working for the IFC (Blackwing doesn't use that name, of course) and that "This whole thing with Zz'dtri is just a cover". Qarr's response is to stammer in a way that often indicates the person is trying to deny a true accusation. Qarr is so upset by this, that he goes after Blackwing rather than V, despite his ability to provide significant help in such a struggle.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html), Qarr refers to Blackwing as a "glorified class feature." This is minor, but he doesn't seem to think that appellation applies to himself. More significantly, he also says that it is a familiar's duty to secure their master's safety "at any cost." There's no indication he applies this to himself. In fact, Qarr seems to acquiesce to Blackwing's accusation that Qarr is more concerned with keeping Blackwing's advice away from V than with defeating V - something that does not help Zz'dtri, but does help the IFC.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0803.html), Qarr admits to lying to Zz'dtri about the planar coordinates, a lie clearly meant to serve the IFC, and then says he has to "report in," not to his purported master, but to Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html) - the other IFC agent in the LG. In this comic, he chastizes Sabine for not showing loyalty to her true masters, makes it clear he hasn't forgotten his loyalty to those masters, and then goes to report to them (presumably). And he does this while leaving Zz'dtri to get captured by the forces of people sworn to kill the Linear Guild (Tarquin and Malik). Qarr almost certainly has the power to save Zz'dtri from arrest, and he doesn't lift a finger to ensure his master's safety - and it would be a minor cost, not the "any cost" he says a familiar should incur.

To me, that creates a plausible - I would say likely - case that Zz'dtri has been deceived into thinking Qarr is his familiar, well beyond the amount needed to justify a disputed tag.

ORione
2012-02-05, 04:33 PM
I've only read the last two pages, so maybe this has been brought up already.

Can someone with class levels (Qarr is a sorcerer) be a familiar?

RMS Oceanic
2012-02-05, 04:38 PM
I've only read the last two pages, so maybe this has been brought up already.

Can someone with class levels (Qarr is a sorcerer) be a familiar?

I believe the technical term is "Ain't No Rule".

Wolfe
2012-02-05, 04:41 PM
Great to see this thread back! It's probably the most fun of the whole board. But yes, let's keep the flames at a minimum.

Regarding the Qarr thing, I'd like to add another dissenting voice to the conclusion that he's a familiar, based on this:


I see no reason not to take Z and Qarr at their word at this time, so I don't see a reason to flag it as disputed.

This thread always worked with the assumption that if something was said directly and clearly in the comics, then it's true. Zz'dtri himself said Qarr is his familiar.

And there's no indication otherwise.

Yes, there's a clear indication otherwise, stated in the comic: Blackwing says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html) to him "you're working with those Archfiends now, aren't you? This whole thing with Z is a cover story", which Qarr can't refute ("Uh, no! Shut up!" is clearly a failed defence).

So, there is indication otherwise, clearly and directly stated in the comic, that the familiar thing is likely a cover story; why not also take Blackwing at his word as was done for Z? Let's be consistent here: clearly Blackwing disputes Qarr's status as a familiar.


But more importantly, I fully agree with Ancalagon and others that the standards for "disputed" (and perhaps an in-between status) need to be clearly defined, and their main purpose should be to avoid flamewars, rather than purely scientific rigor (which is, of course, impossible).

zimmerwald1915
2012-02-05, 04:50 PM
WRT the familiar discussion, there's a bit that hasn't been mentioned yet. Namely, a familiar, if not present at character creation, must be actively summoned by the caster. Qarr couldn't have come to Zz'dtri of his own accord and said "hi, I'm your familiar now." If he wanted to pass as Z's familiar, Z would have had to be manipulated into summoning and binding Qarr, possibly by Sabine, and Qarr would at least have to go through the motions.

There's actually a thread running through the comic of bindings not really doing what the caster thinks they're doing. Eugene was able to pervert the Azurites' calling of a celestial. Redcloak's Ritual doesn't bind the Snarl to him and Xykon, no matter what Xykon thinks. But in each case, a ritual is performed, and some magic is worked. Some creature is affected in some way. Never in the comic has such a ritual proved to have no effect whatsoever.

EmperorSarda
2012-02-05, 05:21 PM
Here, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html)Qarr says he was introduced by a friend of a friend, very likely referring to Sabine (a friend of the IFC). This establishes the first hint that Qarr might not really be working for Zz'dtri. Note that the IFC is upfront with Qarr about most of the LG not knowing that they are agents of the IFC. In the same comic, Blackwing accuses Qarr of working for the IFC (Blackwing doesn't use that name, of course) and that "This whole thing with Zz'dtri is just a cover". Qarr's response is to stammer in a way that often indicates the person is trying to deny a true accusation. Qarr is so upset by this, that he goes after Blackwing rather than V, despite his ability to provide significant help in such a struggle.

Qarr cannot be Z's familiar and work for the IFC? They aren't mutually exclusive.


Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html), Qarr refers to Blackwing as a "glorified class feature." This is minor, but he doesn't seem to think that appellation applies to himself.
Because normal ravens? They have an intelligence of 2. At V's current level, Darkwing has an intelligence of 12 or 13. Qarr did not start out as a dumb animal. He has had a perception of his own self for who knows however so many years. Even class levels.

[/quote]More significantly, he also says that it is a familiar's duty to secure their master's safety "at any cost." There's no indication he applies this to himself. In fact, Qarr seems to acquiesce to Blackwing's accusation that Qarr is more concerned with keeping Blackwing's advice away from V than with defeating V - something that does not help Zz'dtri, but does help the IFC.[/quote]
We also know that Qarr is trying to tempt Darkwing, that he is trying to snuff him. Qarr is saying that for his own plans, for his own gain. He figured trying to play the loyalty card to off Darkwing would work. It failed.


Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0803.html), Qarr admits to lying to Zz'dtri about the planar coordinates, a lie clearly meant to serve the IFC, and then says he has to "report in," not to his purported master, but to Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html) - the other IFC agent in the LG. In this comic, he chastizes Sabine for not showing loyalty to her true masters, makes it clear he hasn't forgotten his loyalty to those masters, and then goes to report to them (presumably). And he does this while leaving Zz'dtri to get captured by the forces of people sworn to kill the Linear Guild (Tarquin and Malik). Qarr almost certainly has the power to save Zz'dtri from arrest, and he doesn't lift a finger to ensure his master's safety - and it would be a minor cost, not the "any cost" he says a familiar should incur.

The power to save Z? The highest spell, not counting his Call Demon ability, we have seen him use is lightning, which he used once. Maybe he had another use, maybe he didn't. But given all the soldiers there, what is the likelihood of one of them pegging Qarr with a crossbow bolt or two? Or more? Guessing at how limited Qarr's spell resources probably are, he wouldn't be able to really save Z from being arrested. Not with Z low on hit points and Qarr unable to teleport him. The likelihood of Qarr being able to help out Z is super low.


To me, that creates a plausible - I would say likely - case that Zz'dtri has been deceived into thinking Qarr is his familiar, well beyond the amount needed to justify a disputed tag.

As I said in a previous post, given that Z is a wizard who tailored his spells and build to fight V, given that he is that conscious about his stats, it seems implausible to me that he could be tricked into thinking that Qarr is his familiar. Deception of loyalty is one thing. Being tricked into thinking you have a class feature and are knowingly tailoring your build... Doesn't seem possible to me.

Kalmegil
2012-02-05, 05:42 PM
Qarr cannot be Z's familiar and work for the IFC? They aren't mutually exclusive.
The point isn't that Qarr works for the IFC. It's that his primary loyalty is to the IFC.



More significantly, he also says that it is a familiar's duty to secure their master's safety "at any cost." There's no indication he applies this to himself. In fact, Qarr seems to acquiesce to Blackwing's accusation that Qarr is more concerned with keeping Blackwing's advice away from V than with defeating V - something that does not help Zz'dtri, but does help the IFC.We also know that Qarr is trying to tempt Darkwing, that he is trying to snuff him. Qarr is saying that for his own plans, for his own gain. He figured trying to play the loyalty card to off Darkwing would work. It failed.
That's one plausible interpretation. I don't think it's consistent with the entirety of Qarr's reactions to Blackwing's accusations. Especially with Qarr following Blackwing away to kill him, when killing him serves the IFC and does not serve Zz'drt at all.

Further, I'm not trying to prove that Qarr is not Zz'drt's familiar. I'm trying to show that there is another likely alternative - that is, that the comic hasn't demonstrated Qarr's status as a familiar with sufficient surety to warrant refusing to apply a disputed tag. Your coming up with a plausible reason for Qarr to act as if he's recovering from being found out, and abandoning his purported master to prevent Blackwing from telling V that Qarr is working for the IFC, doesn't alter the fact that it's reasonable to interpret those comics as Qarr being more loyal to the IFC than to the wizard to which he is purportedly magically bound.


The power to save Z? The highest spell, not counting his Call Demon ability, we have seen him use is lightning, which he used once. Maybe he had another use, maybe he didn't. But given all the soldiers there, what is the likelihood of one of them pegging Qarr with a crossbow bolt or two? Or more? Guessing at how limited Qarr's spell resources probably are, he wouldn't be able to really save Z from being arrested. Not with Z low on hit points and Qarr unable to teleport him. The likelihood of Qarr being able to help out Z is super low.
Charm monster could be darn useful here if used against the commander of those arresting Zz'drt . And we know he has that, and that he's good at it, and that it's a go-to spell for him.


As I said in a previous post, given that Z is a wizard who tailored his spells and build to fight V, given that he is that conscious about his stats, it seems implausible to me that he could be tricked into thinking that Qarr is his familiar. Deception of loyalty is one thing. Being tricked into thinking you have a class feature and are knowingly tailoring your build... Doesn't seem possible to me.
And to me, it seems that the IFC being able to deceive Zz'drt is not only plausible, but quite likely. After all, we know they like to deceive wizards to get what they want.

******

More important than all the specific responses to the various points being made, my post, and the ones that followed it, including yours, read suspiciously like people on the board are disputing whether or not the comics have demonstrated that Qarr is Zz'drt's familiar.

Whether something is disputed is not about which case is stronger. It's not really about the comic at all. It's about whether there is a good-faith dispute.

This dispute is made in good faith. The reasons underlying it have been articulated by at least three people. If that doesn't qualify for "disputed," what on earth is?

Douglas
2012-02-05, 06:31 PM
I still think Zz'dtri's statement, given the existence of rules mechanics he should be aware of to back up his knowledge, should be taken as proof, but enough additional people have chimed in with reasoned arguments that I will no longer oppose a disputed tag for it.

Flame of Anor
2012-02-05, 07:09 PM
These arguments are all very nice, but all they're really proving is that Qarr's status is, in fact, disputed.

sr123
2012-02-05, 07:44 PM
What about, for the Linear Guild, Sir Scraggly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html)?

I'm not sure if he's a wartrained dog, riding dog (since Yukyuk dismounts him to attack Mr Scruffy, for some reason), wolf, or whatever. Certainly he's still alive (no x'ed eyes).

He at least has the following tricks: track, attack. While track is not standard for riding or war dogs, Ranger companions get to learn two extra tricks above the normal limit of 6.

And... um... he's brown... and survived quite a bit of falling damage.

EmperorSarda
2012-02-06, 01:49 AM
The point isn't that Qarr works for the IFC. It's that his primary loyalty is to the IFC.
And again, nowhere in the rules is loyalty required for a familiar. Just in how everybody plays the game.


That's one plausible interpretation. I don't think it's consistent with the entirety of Qarr's reactions to Blackwing's accusations. Especially with Qarr following Blackwing away to kill him, when killing him serves the IFC and does not serve Zz'drt at all.
So? It was at Z's mention of having a familiar that Qarr showed up. Presumably to take away the nuisance of a raven that wanted to "peck out his little orphan eyes." Z didn't exactly complain that Qarr was fighting Blackwing either. And Blackwing dying does serve Z's interests. If Blackwing did die then V would have lost 1500-3000 xp on the Fortitude saving throw. Even at level 15+, that is a lot of experience to lose in one go.


Further, I'm not trying to prove that Qarr is not Zz'drt's familiar. I'm trying to show that there is another likely alternative - that is, that the comic hasn't demonstrated Qarr's status as a familiar with sufficient surety to warrant refusing to apply a disputed tag.

Sure, there could be other alternatives. And why you list Z saying he has a familiar as the only evidence, no one tries to refute the claims I and others have made about Z being too stat and build savvy to know if he legitimately has a familiar or not. Throw in that it takes 24 hours to magically bind the creature to himself and costs 100 gold in material, it seems even less likely that Z has been tricked into having a familiar.



Charm monster could be darn useful here if used against the commander of those arresting Zz'drt . And we know he has that, and that he's good at it, and that it's a go-to spell for him.
Charm the human commander? Cause if you mean KilKil, he is just a bureaucrat or secretary and not in the military hierarchy.



And to me, it seems that the IFC being able to deceive Zz'drt is not only plausible, but quite likely. After all, we know they like to deceive wizards to get what they want.
They do deceive wizards and many a people. But mostly through logic and legal loopholes. Deceiving Z into thinking that he has a familiar when he does not would be as if the IFC tricked V into accepting their agreement but never gave V any power, just the illusion of power.



More important than all the specific responses to the various points being made, my post, and the ones that followed it, including yours, read suspiciously like people on the board are disputing whether or not the comics have demonstrated that Qarr is Zz'drt's familiar.

Whether something is disputed is not about which case is stronger. It's not really about the comic at all. It's about whether there is a good-faith dispute.

This dispute is made in good faith. The reasons underlying it have been articulated by at least three people. If that doesn't qualify for "disputed," what on earth is?

You all dispute it because you feel one statement and Qarr's loyalty is not enough to justifiably prove if Qarr is a familiar or not. Whereas I and others have shown how loyalty is not required by RAW and just how improbable it is for Z to be fooled into thinking he has a familiar when he does not.



These arguments are all very nice, but all they're really proving is that Qarr's status is, in fact, disputed.

Except loyalty is nowhere required in being a familiar to a wizard.

Chronos
2012-02-06, 02:24 AM
Quoth zimmerwald1915:
There's actually a thread running through the comic of bindings not really doing what the caster thinks they're doing. Eugene was able to pervert the Azurites' calling of a celestial...
Y'know, that's an excellent precedent. The Azurite clerics called for a being from the celestial realms, and they got what they asked for, but they didn't get what they thought they were getting. It seems quite plausible to me that, likewise, Z called for a familiar, and got one, but didn't get what he thought he was getting.

And given that this makes Qaar's status consistent with what Z claimed (that Qaar was his familiar), I think we should consider it settled, until and unless anyone can find a rule that familiars have to be primarily loyal to their masters.

RMS Oceanic
2012-02-06, 05:00 AM
Kurald Galain and I are hammering out a definition of "disputed" which will be going up in the FAQ, but for now I'll say this: A key point of something being disputed is that ideally there should be evidence in accordance with the D&D rules to dispute the fact, like how Vaarsuvius' carrying of Durkon contradicts the rules for encumbered flight. For Z and Qarr, the evidence stacks up as such:

Pro-Familiar: Z says Qarr is his familiar

Anti-Familiar: Blackwing's conversation with Qarr implies that Qarr's agenda is not fully in alignment with Z's goals

The pro-familiar evidence takes what we would consider a primary source: testimony from the character in question about their abilities. The anti-familiar evidence relies on speculation that because Qarr is not personally loyal to Z he is not his familiar. As Blackwing's behaviour towards Vaarsuvius previously showed, familiars are not required to be totally loyal to their master, and indeed I don't see any evidence in the SRD to confirm or deny this. Until Qarr admits he is somehow pretending to be Z's familiar or Z comments on abilities he is missing from the familiar bond, I don't see how it can be disputed in the rules sense.

Kurald Galain
2012-02-06, 05:15 AM
Yes.

It is important to note that this thread is about facts and evidence. This has always been a thread requirement, and if we drop this, the entire thread becomes pointless. That's the important part. For example, it is easy to claim that Elan is a doppelganger (after all, he does nothing that a doppelganger can't do, and the comic nowhere explicitly states that he's not a doppelganger). But unless you have evidence that he is, it doesn't count as a dispute for his race in the top post.

Also, as Douglas noted earlier, the dispute tag is for issues where numerous people are on both sides; so if two or three people think something and they can't convince anyone else to agree with them, that doesn't count. So please, if you bring up a new issue, don't immediately ask for a tag, but allow some time for discussion first.

Kurald Galain
2012-02-06, 05:35 AM
It seems to me that there is indeed a dispute over where Qarr's loyalties lie. However, it strikes me that this is not a rules dispute, but a plot dispute. This is because the rules have nothing to say about Qarr's loyalties: there is no rule anywhere requiring a friend, servant, or familiar to be loyal. And since this thread is about the rules, the top posts don't say anything about Qarr's loyalties either.


In other news...

Haley is listed with bonus languages. Does anyone remember where this is stated?

Haley is listed with a constitution of 14+ with the Miko Fight listed as evidence. However, I don't see how this battle proves anything about her constitution. Thoughts, anyone?

Nale should have Invisibility, and Malack should have Str ~12, Con ~12, and Int ~8 (all racial).

Also, good catch on Durkon's candles; I've added these.


What about, for the Linear Guild, Sir Scraggly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html)?
That's a good question. We could add him, but we really don't know that much about him. Note that we don't have statblocks for Windstriker or Argent, either.

RMS Oceanic
2012-02-06, 05:48 AM
I believe it was (maybe) comic 248 or such, where Elan made an off-hand reference to Haley having more languages than he did.

I agree with removing Haley's Constitution and, for that matter, Roy's, as his was also "determined" by the Miko fight.

Good point on Nale and Malack, I'll fix that.

Regarding Sir Scraggly, I'd wait on seeing whether Yukyuk makes any further contribution to the story before including him or not.

Also, since Tarquin is definitely middle aged, he should have his age related ability modifiers, so I've added them in.

Kish
2012-02-06, 05:48 AM
Haley is listed with bonus languages. Does anyone remember where this is stated?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0247.html .


Haley is listed with a constitution of 14+ with the Miko Fight listed as evidence. However, I don't see how this battle proves anything about her constitution. Thoughts, anyone?
I don't think it does.


Nale should have Invisibility, and Malack should have Str ~12, Con ~12, and Int ~8 (all racial).

Rather, Nale should have "an invisibility spell," since he didn't attack anyone while invisible and so we can't tell whether it's Invisibility or Greater Invisibility.

Kalmegil
2012-02-06, 08:46 AM
Pro-Familiar: Z says Qarr is his familiar

Anti-Familiar: Blackwing's conversation with Qarr implies that Qarr's agenda is not fully in alignment with Z's goals.

No. That is not at all a fair summary of the anti-familiar position. It's not that his agenda is not "fully in alignment." It's not even specifically about who he feels his loyalty lies with. It's that he states, explicitly, that he serves someone else and that he makes decisions that are against Zz'dtri's interests. Therefore, several people have argued that he cannot properly be described as Zz'dtri's "companion and servant."


This is because the rules have nothing to say about Qarr's loyalties: there is no rule anywhere requiring a friend, servant, or familiar to be loyal.

And this is why the continued misstatement of the disputed position is so maddening. I haven't said that loyalty (or as some others have put it, "absolute loyalty") is required. What we've said is that serving as a companion and servant is required. The dispute is about what that rule means, and whether Qarr's actions live up to that meaning.


Until Qarr admits he is somehow pretending to be Z's familiar or Z comments on abilities he is missing from the familiar bond, I don't see how it can be disputed in the rules sense.

And, yet, several people do believe it to be disputed in the rules sense. We're arguing about what a rule - specifically, "serves as a companion and servant" - means. That's a rules dispute. To not have a disputed tag is to not fulfill the goal that the list of information "represents the threads community's conclusions."

Assume you run a wizard in a a game who has taken the improved familiar feat. Assume the DM has the familiar abandon the wizard in battle, not in the face of a suicidal command. In fact, we know the familiar has very good chances of escape, given he's an at-will teleporter w/ invisibility. Assume further that the DM's justification for this is that the familiar has greater loyalty to other masters who have explicitly stated they are using the unwitting "idiots" in the party (including the wizard) to cause trouble. Would you really consider the DM to be following the rules that state the familiar is a companion and a servant? At minimum, you'd have a reasonable basis to say, "That's not following the rules."

Which brings us to this:


For example, it is easy to claim that Elan is a doppelganger (after all, he does nothing that a doppelganger can't do, and the comic nowhere explicitly states that he's not a doppelganger). But unless you have evidence that he is, it doesn't count as a dispute for his race in the top post.

That example is inapposite. If the first comic in which Zdd'tri said he had a familiar was the only one, then arguing "We don't know for sure if he's really a familiar" would be the same as claiming Elan is a doppelganger. Here, we have repeated statements and actions that, in the reasoned opinion of several board members, cast serious doubt as to whether Qarr is "serv[ing] as a companion and servant."


It is important to note that this thread is about facts and evidence. This has always been a thread requirement, and if we drop this, the entire thread becomes pointless.

Agreed. That's why I want the disputed tag here. The thread does not become "pointless" because people want to give some weight to the words "serves as a companion and servant." Rather, it becomes pointless if we decide that one group saying "the rules don't call for loyalty" and another group saying "but they do require acting as a servant and companion, and Qarr is not" aren't arguing about the rules. We disagree about two things: the rules, and how Qarr's actions should be interpreted under them. But there is still a rules dispute, and it's at the heart of the matter.


Also, as Douglas noted earlier, the dispute tag is for issues where numerous people are on both sides; so if two or three people think something and they can't convince anyone else to agree with them, that doesn't count.

Note that in this case, Douglas has explicitly said that the level and nature of disagreement here has removed his opposition to addition of the disputed tag, despite his continued belief that the matter is clear.

ETA: For accuracy's sake, I need to point out that I did use the phrase "primary loyalty" before. This post should serve to clarify what I mean, and why a mental state of loyalty was not what I was referring to when I used the word.

Lvl45DM!
2012-02-06, 08:56 AM
Snip

This is a smart person.
Pro-familiar: Direct statement by character. Difficulty in faking familiar status (Share spells etc.)
Anti-familiar: Non-compliance with familiar rules, under a valid interpretation

I still think they are wrong, but Qarr could be considered to be violating the rules.

RMS Oceanic
2012-02-06, 09:07 AM
Blackwing testified against Vaarsuvius and the order in the Trial over Dorukan's Gate. He also fled from the Death Knight. I would say these are in-comic examples of a known familiar both disobeying direct instructions and acting against his master's interests. If Blackwing can do it, why can't Qarr?

Kalmegil
2012-02-06, 09:22 AM
He also fled from the Death Knight.

Suicidal orders are often treated differently in D&D. Note that my example specifically called out that the abandonment was not in the face of a suicidal command.

"Serves as a companion and servant" is ill-defined, so we don't know what it means exactly. It requires interpretation to give it any weight at all. But, unless one considers the sentence to have been added for no reason, it means something. And a very plausible meaning includes both "not abandoning your master" and "familiars don't have to follow suicidal orders."


Blackwing testified against Vaarsuvius and the order in the Trial over Dorukan's Gate.

We have no idea what he said there. We know it upset V. It's not hard to imagine a reasonable interpretation of "serves as a companion and servant" that allows for truthful testimony in a lawful good court, even at the expense of one's master, while still not allowing for making decisions contrary to the best interests of the wizard because he's obeying other masters.

Again, I'll emphasize that this rule requires interpretation. Without interpretation, there's no way to apply the rule. So it does not good to simply say, RAW! The rule as written requires interpretation before it can be applied at all.

Psyren
2012-02-06, 09:53 AM
*Sidesteps previous discussion*

Question: Does the existence of Xykon's Astral Plane getaway mean he has Genesis?

SavageWombat
2012-02-06, 09:59 AM
*Sidesteps previous discussion*

Question: Does the existence of Xykon's Astral Plane getaway mean he has Genesis?

I don't think so. Building ON the astral just requires the material to build from. Genesis, IIRC, would allow him to create a demi-plane WITHIN the Astral, which would recall another Gate to reach.

Douglas
2012-02-06, 10:00 AM
Question: Does the existence of Xykon's Astral Plane getaway mean he has Genesis?
No. Genesis creates an entirely new (demi)plane. The Astral Plane is a pre-existing plane.

Xapi
2012-02-06, 10:25 AM
You all dispute it because you feel one statement and Qarr's loyalty is not enough to justifiably prove if Qarr is a familiar or not. Whereas I and others have shown how loyalty is not required by RAW and just how improbable it is for Z to be fooled into thinking he has a familiar when he does not.




Except loyalty is nowhere required in being a familiar to a wizard.

I'd like to propose an alternative interpretation to the familiar issue.

Perhaps a familiar is a feature that Z gave up for some other benefit at "character creation", specially since V was clearly not using her own.

Then, V "remembered" her familiar, and started to treat it like the sentient being it is, so it started to be an asset for V.

At that time, Z felt s/he needed something to counter BW, and Sabine offered Qarr's assistance as a faux-familiar, IE, not an actual familiar with the features from the SRD, but a small lower level creature that can take care of Blackwing.

So her statement of "I have a familiar now" would be a loose description of Qarr's position as her helper, and not an actual statement of his condition as her "companion and servant" per the SRD.

I also agree that calling Qarr a familiar and the way he acts is probably incompatible.

We'd have four choices:

1 - Familiars in the OotSverse regularily behave differently than in ANY other setting or RPG table (where familiars are directly controlled by the players). This seems to be the argument of those like Emperor Sarda who believe this topic is not disputed, because RAW does not explicitely define the extent of the familiar/caster bond RE: loyalty.

2 - Z was fooled into thinking she has a familiar when in fact she does not. This does posit a number of problems regarding how a familiar is acquired.

3 - Z has taken Qarr as a familiar according to RAW, but the IFCC somehow messed with that to give Qarr a wider margin to follow their directives.

4 - Z's statement that Qarr was his familiar was in fact a loose description of his role, not a description of his condition according to the rules.

I believe all of these explanations are somewhat valid, yet each has it's problems. So, by my assesment, this matter is disputed on very well funded grounds.

Psyren
2012-02-06, 10:55 AM
No. Genesis creates an entirely new (demi)plane. The Astral Plane is a pre-existing plane.

I know that (not my first rodeo :smallwink:): I'm talking about Xykon's sanctum. It appears to have its own laws, e.g. subjective gravity judging by the spherical shape, which hints at it being a demiplane he created.

I'm curious if there's another way to create a structure floating in Astral space. It could even be another epic spell of his own design.


Also, did Redcloak cast 2 Gates or one? (One in this strip, and possibly one for the Resistance?) If the former, he has at least 28 Wis. Implosion doesn't count as that is a domain spell for him.

Kalmegil
2012-02-06, 11:17 AM
Charm the human commander? Cause if you mean KilKil, he is just a bureaucrat or secretary and not in the military hierarchy.

I missed this before. I mean charm whoever is the leader in the htird-to-last panel in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html). I'm not sure why you would think I'm referring to KilKil here.

******

The upshot here is that there is serious dispute about the meaning of a particular rule ("The creature serves as a companion and servant.") That warrants the disputed tag.

EmperorSarda
2012-02-06, 11:47 AM
At that time, Z felt s/he needed something to counter BW, and Sabine offered Qarr's assistance as a faux-familiar, IE, not an actual familiar with the features from the SRD, but a small lower level creature that can take care of Blackwing.

So her statement of "I have a familiar now" would be a loose description of Qarr's position as her helper, and not an actual statement of his condition as her "companion and servant" per the SRD.

Then why not say that he has something to counter Darkwing instead of saying he has a familiar?


I also agree that calling Qarr a familiar and the way he acts is probably incompatible.
Belkar is a companion to the rest of the Order but has been known to throw daggers at party members, pull malicious pranks and even try to attempt murder on Elan. Servants have no requirement for loyalty either.


I believe all of these explanations are somewhat valid, yet each has it's problems. So, by my assesment, this matter is disputed on very well funded grounds.

But the dispute is based on how one thinks a familiar should act. As far as Z knows, Nale and Sabine swung by to bring him along to the Western Continent and Sabine talked to Z about a getting an imp familiar, suggesting an imp she was familiar with. As far as Z is aware, he is unaware of any and all duplicity.

It only serves for hilarious antics when V spills the beans that he was taken to the Demi-plane of ranch dressing.


I missed this before. I mean charm whoever is the leader in the htird-to-last panel in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html). I'm not sure why you would think I'm referring to KilKil here.


Of the guards arresting Z, they're all human which Charm Monster does not work against. And we have no evidence of Qarr having Charm Person.

Xapi
2012-02-06, 11:56 AM
Then why not say that he has something to counter Darkwing instead of saying he has a familiar?

Why did Redcloack say counterspell instead of whatever spell he used to counter? The narrative looks better (according to the author). There are other examples of characters saying one thing (rule wise) when the meaning is slightly different, I recall the matter of summons inside the Cloister, for instance.


Belkar is a companion to the rest of the Order but has been known to throw daggers at party members, pull malicious pranks and even try to attempt murder on Elan. Servants have no requirement for loyalty either.

A servant bound by property rights/wages and a servant bound by magic are usually different from one another. Same goes for companions, although I wouldn't even use the word companion on Belkar.

It is dangerous to delve so deep into the waters of rules as written. I'd advise against it.


But the dispute is based on how one thinks a familiar should act. As far as Z knows, Nale and Sabine swung by to bring him along to the Western Continent and Sabine talked to Z about a getting an imp familiar, suggesting an imp she was familiar with. As far as Z is aware, he is unaware of any and all duplicity.

It is based on how familiars actually DO work in every single RPG or fantasy setting I've ever heard of.

Like I've said, familiars in OOTS would have to behave VERY different to any other familiar before, and it would certainly take a very peculiar interpretation to the rules to have Qarr act as he does while being Z's familiar.

Kalmegil
2012-02-06, 12:00 PM
Of the guards arresting Z, they're all human which Charm Monster does not work against. And we have no evidence of Qarr having Charm Person.

No. "This spell functions like charm person, except that the effect is not restricted by creature type or size." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmMonster.htm) So it works just fine on humans.


Belkar is a companion to the rest of the Order but has been known to throw daggers at party members, pull malicious pranks and even try to attempt murder on Elan. Servants have no requirement for loyalty either.

Belkar is not there because someone spent a feat to gain an imp to serve as a companion and servant. There's a difference between us using the words "companion" to describe Belkar and the rules saying "If you have summoned a familiar, it will serve as a companion and servant." Clearly people can mean different things when they use the words "serve," "companion," and "servant." Therefore the rule is ambiguous. Therefore it is subject to reasonable dispute, and when it is disputed, it's a dispute about the words.

Edited to add for those who think number of people on a side matters. The following people have said there should be a disputed flag, or expressly said they no longer object to such a flag. The * indicates a person who thinks Qarr is a familiar but still thinks the disputed tag is acceptable.

Ancalagon
Kish*
douglas*
Flame of Anor*
Wolfe
Lvl45DM!*
Xapi

I believe that each person without a * has made a detailed, reasoned post outlining why they think it's disputed.

EmperorSarda
2012-02-06, 12:08 PM
It is based on how familiars actually DO work in every single RPG or fantasy setting I've ever heard of.


Yes, they work that way because they are played that way. Because DM's would be crazy to have a glorified class feature that would not be completely loyal and do what the player wants the familiar to do. As far as plot and an interesting story go, I think it works.


No. "This spell functions like charm person, except that the effect is not restricted by creature type or size." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmMonster.htm) So it works just fine on humans.

Oh. Whoops. So he could have done something then.

Wolfe
2012-02-06, 12:12 PM
so if two or three people think something and they can't convince anyone else to agree with them, that doesn't count.
How many does it take?



It is important to note that this thread is about facts and evidence. [...] For example, it is easy to claim that Elan is a doppelganger (after all, he does nothing that a doppelganger can't do, and the comic nowhere explicitly states that he's not a doppelganger). But unless you have evidence that he is, it doesn't count as a dispute for his race in the top post.
There are facts and evidence that Blackwing disputes Qarr's status as familiar. There are facts and evidence that Qarr is not a "servant" to Z, but to the Archfiends. There are facts and evidence that his relationship with Z is "a cover story". Is any of this false or incorrect?

The doppleganger thing is a red herring and a ridiculous straw man argument. Your strawman, your problem. I'm not touching it.



So please, if you bring up a new issue, don't immediately ask for a tag, but allow some time for discussion first.
We are discussing it. But just to know: how much time is "time"?

Chronos
2012-02-06, 01:12 PM
Also, did Redcloak cast 2 Gates or one? (One in this strip, and possibly one for the Resistance?) If the former, he has at least 28 Wis. Implosion doesn't count as that is a domain spell for him.I was wondering about that, too. I had been assuming that the devils all came from Planar Ally spells, but that the elemental was Extended Summon Monster VIII (all of Redcloak's base level-8 spells are otherwise accounted for). Given that he had a Gate in reserve, it seems to imply at least one bonus 8th-level spell, for a 26 Wis.

Xykon also has some means of traveling to the Astral Plane on his own power. I'd have to double-check what we know of his spells known list, but I don't think he has room for any spell that would work, so that's presumably an item (or possibly an epic spell, but that seems overkill). One snag is that most items that would allow that would also require the use of a planar-travel spell to construct them. Though I suppose he could have had Redcloak's cooperation.

And it's hard to say what Xykon used to build his new astral fortress, but it's presumably the same thing he used to build his green tower in Azure City, whatever that was.

Flame of Anor
2012-02-06, 01:39 PM
Also, as Douglas noted earlier, the dispute tag is for issues where numerous people are on both sides; so if two or three people think something and they can't convince anyone else to agree with them, that doesn't count.

That sounds logical. Can we maybe start out by getting polls on the most-argued issues, so we can see if there are any we can settle right off the bat?


Flying encumbrance
Silver rapier
Qarr as familiar
other issues?

EmperorSarda
2012-02-06, 01:45 PM
There are facts and evidence that Blackwing disputes Qarr's status as familiar. There are facts and evidence that Qarr is not a "servant" to Z, but to the Archfiends. There are facts and evidence that his relationship with Z is "a cover story". Is any of this false or incorrect?


So Blackwing discovers that Qarr is a agent of the IFC and that means he cannot be a familiar either? They are not mutually exclusive. He can be Z's familiar in the legal RAW sense and still be working for the IFC.

Also, while ever Player would naturally expect the DM to not touch their familiars and not mess with loyalty, Z is not a PC. Who is to say that a DM could not make a baddie whose familiar is more closely aligned with the Baddie's boss than with his wizard to whom it is bound?

What player would tell the DM that the NPC's familiar should be more loyal to the NPC than the NPC's boss if it makes for a good plot twist?

ti'esar
2012-02-06, 01:48 PM
That sounds logical. Can we maybe start out by getting polls on the most-argued issues, so we can see if there are any we can settle right off the bat?


Flying encumbrance
Silver rapier
Qarr as familiar
other issues?


While I have no opinions on the other two issues, I've come around to believing that Elan's rapier is now silver.

Flame of Anor
2012-02-06, 01:53 PM
While I have no opinions on the other two issues, I've come around to believing that Elan's rapier is now silver.

I have been convinced it's barely possible, but I still don't think there's sufficient evidence for it to be listed. What's the evidence, other than his Beatles song reference? The art? Let me explain something: in the bright desert sunshine, reflective metal is going to look much brighter.

ti'esar
2012-02-06, 02:01 PM
It seems have consistently been drawn that color since that point, however, and wasn't drawn that way before. And yes, the original "evidence" is a Beatles song reference, but the joke isn't mutually exclusive with Elan having an actual silver rapier.

Kalmegil
2012-02-06, 02:10 PM
He can be Z's familiar in the legal RAW sense and still be working for the IFC.

You keep saying this. What RAW evidence is there that this is true? Note that "working for the IFC" means 1) abandoning his captured wizard to go report to the IFC and 2) chastizing Sabine for showing too much support for the LG member she is attached to at the expense of the IFC, among other things listed previously.

It requires a particular interpretation of "serves as a companion and servant" to say that the rules allow Qarr to act in this manner while he is a familiar. That interpretation might be correct. But you're trying to elevate your interpretation of an ambiguous rule to RAW level, and there's no basis to do so.

The relevant rule is ambiguous. It cannot be applied without interpretation. A reasonable interpretation has been offered by several people that suggests Qarr is not serving as a companion and servant and, therefore, is not clearly a familiar.

I've counted 7 people who think the disputed tag is either correct or that the arguments presented in support of a disputed tag are reasonable enough to warrant the tag. More than half are people who think Qarr is a familiar. This is a dispute about the rules. If this doesn't warrant a "disputed" tag, it's hard to think what would.

Xapi
2012-02-06, 02:13 PM
So Blackwing discovers that Qarr is a agent of the IFC and that means he cannot be a familiar either? They are not mutually exclusive. He can be Z's familiar in the legal RAW sense and still be working for the IFC.

Also, while ever Player would naturally expect the DM to not touch their familiars and not mess with loyalty, Z is not a PC. Who is to say that a DM could not make a baddie whose familiar is more closely aligned with the Baddie's boss than with his wizard to whom it is bound?

What player would tell the DM that the NPC's familiar should be more loyal to the NPC than the NPC's boss if it makes for a good plot twist?

The fact that Blackwing confronts Qarr with his actions is a clear indication that the concept of a familiar owing loyalty to his master is not something we just made up, but an actual characteristic of the class feature.

I think you are trying to close an argument (IE: Claming it's not disputed) on the basis of a very unlikely interpretation of the rules.

If I cast a spell whose descriptor said "If the targeted person fails his save, he becomes your servant and companion for 2 days." would you believe this target to be able to hide things from me, working on an agenda that is at some point against my interests?

EmperorSarda
2012-02-06, 02:14 PM
You keep saying this. What RAW evidence is there that this is true? Note that "working for the IFC" means 1) abandoning his captured wizard to go report to the IFC and 2) chastizing Sabine for showing too much support for the LG member she is attached to at the expense of the IFC, among other things listed previously.

It requires a particular interpretation of "serves as a companion and servant" to say that the rules allow Qarr to act in this manner while he is a familiar. That interpretation might be correct. But you're trying to elevate your interpretation of an ambiguous rule to RAW level, and there's no basis to do so.

The relevant rule is ambiguous. It cannot be applied without interpretation. A reasonable interpretation has been offered by several people that suggests Qarr is not serving as a companion and servant and, therefore, is not clearly a familiar.

I've counted 7 people who think the disputed tag is either correct or that the arguments presented in support of a disputed tag are reasonable enough to warrant the tag. More than half are people who think Qarr is a familiar. This is a dispute about the rules. If this doesn't warrant a "disputed" tag, it's hard to think what would.
*Shrug* Throw up the tag then.

Once&FutureKing
2012-02-06, 02:59 PM
It seems like Xykon must have Astral Projection, because he would be a class A moron to build a fortress in a plane he can't get to under his own power, and this spell makes the most sense (though Gate is also possible I suppose). Either way, Xykon seems to have another level 9 spell, which is stupid because it suggests his level is higher still (never mind about the Epic Ring he might have forged, that puts him to level 35 without this), in order to have the extra spell learnt.

Oh, and he built the fortress with Stone Shape.

Psyren
2012-02-06, 03:34 PM
It seems like Xykon must have Astral Projection, because he would be a class A moron to build a fortress in a plane he can't get to under his own power, and this spell makes the most sense (though Gate is also possible I suppose).

Astral Projection doesn't actually take you to the Astral Plane; it just creates a copy of you there while you stay home. To truly go to the Astral Plane he'd need Plane Shift or Gate, and his request to RC indicates he doesn't know the latter.



Oh, and he built the fortress with Stone Shape.

It's possible, but wouldn't he need a rock that size to shape? He'd have to bring it in with him too, unless the Astral Plane has planetoids floating around.

ti'esar
2012-02-06, 03:45 PM
It's possible, but wouldn't he need a rock that size to shape? He'd have to bring it in with him too, unless the Astral Plane has planetoids floating around.

I think it does, in fact. (Actually, in at least some older editions they were the remains of dead gods, but I doubt that holds true in the OOTS-verse).

Douglas
2012-02-06, 04:04 PM
Xykon's 9th level spells are all taken, so he doesn't have Gate. His 7th level spells are also all filled in, so that seems to exclude Plane Shift, but the list (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) does have an unknown 8th level spot. That could be Greater Plane Shift, or Rich could have used a slightly flexible rules interpretation to fill that spot with the lower level Plane Shift spell in order to keep it core.

Or Xykon could be using scrolls of Plane Shift or some other magic item. Judging by his comment about "a bunch of scrolls" in the current strip (833), he has ready access to large numbers of scrolls. I highly doubt this access is limited to scrolls he can make himself, as he'd have no reason to bother with scrolls when he can just cast the spell directly, so an effectively unlimited (through regular replenishment) supply of scrolls of Plane Shift seems reasonable.

Regardless, all that's really clear at this point is that Xykon has some means of interplanar travel independent of Redcloak. There are far too many possibilities for what it is to list any specific one with any substantial degree of confidence.

lord_khaine
2012-02-06, 06:42 PM
Should there not at the same time be a disputed tag on Xykons level?
As i recall there were certainly enough discussion over it last time it came up.

Also, there is a minor mistake in Celia's entry, where the number of 3rd level spells she cast is used as evidence for her charisma, something that doesnt make sense when we dont have evidence for her sorcerer casting level.

Chronos
2012-02-06, 06:51 PM
Also, there is a minor mistake in Celia's entry, where the number of 3rd level spells she cast is used as evidence for her charisma, something that doesnt make sense when we dont have evidence for her sorcerer casting level.I think that that's under the principle of assuming the lowest consistent level, which IIRC is one of the established guiding principles of this thread.

Kish
2012-02-06, 07:04 PM
I think that that's under the principle of assuming the lowest consistent level, which IIRC is one of the established guiding principles of this thread.
If "assume the lowest consistent character level, raise every other 'established minimum' stat as much as possible to fit that" is an established guiding principle of this thread, 1) Xykon's level should be listed as lower--not "disputed," just lower--and 2) this is a principle that I certainly never got to vote on.

Celia can cast at least four third-level spells per day. So she is either at least 7th level, or has a Charisma of at least 16. Neither possibility should be privileged over the other.

Kurald Galain
2012-02-07, 05:42 AM
Added link for Haley's languages. Removed minimum con from Haley and Roy, for lack of evidence.


How many does it take?
I don't think it helps this thread to make it formally bureaucrating and state that a petition needs 50 signatures within two weeks, so we're not going to do that.

That said, I'm fine with a disputed tag on Qarr's familiarity (familiarness? familitude?). I have the feeling that this issue is going to be resolved the next time Zz'dtri appears in-comic.



Also, since Tarquin is definitely middle aged, he should have his age related ability modifiers, so I've added them in.
Good catch.


Let me explain something: in the bright desert sunshine, reflective metal is going to look much brighter.
Again, your argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny: none of the other reflective metal items has changed color, and Elan's rapier is still silver-colored when he's indoors out of the sun.


I think that that's under the principle of assuming the lowest consistent level, which IIRC is one of the established guiding principles of this thread.
Correct. This should go in the FAQ.


Should there not at the same time be a disputed tag on Xykons level?
Yes, and also on several of his feats. Also, he should have a bunch of scrolls added to his inventory.


Xykon's 9th level spells are all taken, so he doesn't have Gate. His 7th level spells are also all filled in, so that seems to exclude Plane Shift, but the list (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) does have an unknown 8th level spot. That could be Greater Plane Shift, or Rich could have used a slightly flexible rules interpretation to fill that spot with the lower level Plane Shift spell in order to keep it core.
That sounds plausible. Any other opinions on this?

Kish
2012-02-07, 06:10 AM
That sounds plausible. Any other opinions on this?
Not guaranteed that he doesn't know Gate. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellKnowledge)

RMS Oceanic
2012-02-07, 06:31 AM
Since we can't precisely determine Xykon's method of travel to the Astral Plane at this time, I've marked it down as an unspecified spell. I don't intend to add his scrolls or his possession of the fake phylactery until the next time we see him, because he's made his intention clear to use the scrolls and deposit the phylactery in his fortress.

The dispute over Xykon's level comes from two decisions that I think has never been adequately agreed upon: Whether we assume magic items are at work, or whether we assume non-core explanations. To do what he did with no magic items and with core-only material, Xykon has to be level 27 to procure the feats he'd need to do it. The Complete Arcane feat Sudden Maximize would negate the need for Epic Feats, but CA is not a core source. Likewise a Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize would negate the epic feats, but we don't see him wield one and unlike Rings, Rods are fairly conspicuous at 2-3 feet in length.

I think we need to discuss whether we should always strive for the lowest level with any explanation, or should this remain within the context of using core-only explanations unless there literally aren't any? My personal feelings would be to stay with core-only and not to assume Xykon couldn't do that without a magic item, especially within the context of him demonstrating the power he has by "staying in the game" to Vaarsuvius in the strip. However it's something we can discuss, and what we decide can be added to the FAQ.

I've added a dispute tag to Qarr's familiar status. Hopefully we'll get a clearer picture of their relationship the next time we see the Linear Guild.

Once&FutureKing
2012-02-07, 06:35 AM
Should there not at the same time be a disputed tag on Xykons level?
As i recall there were certainly enough discussion over it last time it came up.

Also, there is a minor mistake in Celia's entry, where the number of 3rd level spells she cast is used as evidence for her charisma, something that doesnt make sense when we dont have evidence for her sorcerer casting level.

I asked what reasonable evidence we have of xykon being lower than 27, which isn't made up of extremely unlikely and unsupported non-core theories (like invisible meta-magic rods), and I got an empty silence. There's more evidence Xykon is above 27 than there is he is 21.

fractal
2012-02-07, 07:05 AM
Please count me in the "I don't think we can assume Xykon is level 27+" camp. Unless Xykon thinks Roy is level 20 in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html , it seems pretty unlikely. (It certainly seems unlikely that he'd guess Roy is 7 or 8 levels lower than he is when it's actually a difference of 13+.)

However, if we _do_ conclude that Xykon has lots of Improved Spell Capacity, doesn't that contradict the evidence given for his Charisma being 28+? (Namely, that he cast seven 9th level spells in a day.) He could just use his higher level spell slots for the excess castings, and get up to at least nine that way.

Once&FutureKing
2012-02-07, 07:27 AM
....

No.

"Some vague remark he made to Roy" is not good evidence. It's horrible evidence. I do agree the indications early on was Xykon was no more than 20, because otherwise Durkon would have been unable to dispel his greater invisibility...but it's clear that's been hand waved in order to massively level up Xykon (or I suppose someone else cast invisibility, even though it's implausible... maybe a scroll?).

The other stuff is pretty hardcore evidence, and no, there's no way for him to be lower than 27 without non-core, ridiculous, left field ass pulls. In addition, people have done calculations showing if he really did forge an item that lets him be immune to fire (say a ring of fire immunity, which is of the grade we're talking about to no sell a meteor swarm) then he'd be at level 35. If he has another 9th level spell (like Gate), he levels up again. If he has another Epic spell, he levels up again. If he has more epic spell slots, he levels up more. This is annoying because we're likely to see all these things as the plot progresses, and it's going to get to the point where Xykon's level is absurdly implausible (and people will be asking "why didn't he use that last time he was in dire straights!?")

As for the Charisma part... I don't honestly care what his Charisma is, but for those who do, the incident in question occurred literally years ago. We don't even know if he had improved spell capacity years ago.

Xapi
2012-02-07, 08:08 AM
It seems like Xykon must have Astral Projection, because he would be a class A moron to build a fortress in a plane he can't get to under his own power, and this spell makes the most sense (though Gate is also possible I suppose). Either way, Xykon seems to have another level 9 spell, which is stupid because it suggests his level is higher still (never mind about the Epic Ring he might have forged, that puts him to level 35 without this), in order to have the extra spell learnt.

Oh, and he built the fortress with Stone Shape.

Oh, but he CAN get there under his own power, he just has to die.

He doesn't need to be able to access the astral plane via a known spell.

From the looks of it, he went there once, and stayed until his fortress was done.

Now that he has the phylactery, he's going back to have RC cast spells on the fortress and leave the phylactery there.

I am pretty certain he has no intention to go back there except when his body is destroyed, so a single scroll to get there the first time plus another scroll to get out of there when he is destroyed and regenerated.

Dark Matter
2012-02-07, 08:49 AM
Unless Xykon thinks Roy is level 20 in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html , it seems pretty unlikely. (It certainly seems unlikely that he'd guess Roy is 7 or 8 levels lower than he is when it's actually a difference of 13+.)Xykon is a habitual liar and sadist. Trusting him to give accurate information on how to defeat him seems a reach (and technically he said 7, 8, or more).

The scene still works great if he's level 28. Roy goes out, earns 7 levels, comes back at level 21.... and Xykon curb-stomps him while gloating about how Roy shouldn't have trusted him.


However, if we _do_ conclude that Xykon has lots of Improved Spell Capacity, doesn't that contradict the evidence given for his Charisma being 28+? (Namely, that he cast seven 9th level spells in a day.) He could just use his higher level spell slots for the excess castings, and get up to at least nine that way.Agreed.

Douglas
2012-02-07, 09:41 AM
Since we can't precisely determine Xykon's method of travel to the Astral Plane at this time, I've marked it down as an unspecified spell.
We know too little to assume even that much. It could be an item, and the usual arguments against a Rod of Maximize don't apply for this one. He's not shown actually traveling to or from the Astral, so there's no expectation that the item would be shown. There is at least one possibility for the item that is quite cheap (scroll), and we know that he has other items of the same type.

All we've got at this point is "unspecified means of travel to and from the Astral Plane", with nothing to say whether it's one of his spells known or something else.

Regarding Xykon's charisma, I agree that the listed evidence for the exact number of 28 is negated by his level and Improved Spell Capacity feats. I'd expect him to have charisma out the wazoo anyway just because he's a high level Sorcerer, especially combined with possible age bonuses and the Lich template, but I don't think we can pin a number on it beyond 19+ (for casting 9th level spells at all). 28 or even somewhere in the 30s would not surprise me, but we need new evidence.

lord_khaine
2012-02-07, 10:07 AM
I asked what reasonable evidence we have of xykon being lower than 27, which isn't made up of extremely unlikely and unsupported non-core theories (like invisible meta-magic rods), and I got an empty silence. There's more evidence Xykon is above 27 than there is he is 21.

You can get an answer that is just as supportet as the 27+ theory, namely either the use of sudden maximise, a rod of the former metamagic, or some of the many other metamagic reducers there are.


No.

"Some vague remark he made to Roy" is not good evidence. It's horrible evidence. I do agree the indications early on was Xykon was no more than 20, because otherwise Durkon would have been unable to dispel his greater invisibility...but it's clear that's been hand waved in order to massively level up Xykon (or I suppose someone else cast invisibility, even though it's implausible... maybe a scroll?).

The other stuff is pretty hardcore evidence, and no, there's no way for him to be lower than 27 without non-core, ridiculous, left field ass pulls. In addition, people have done calculations showing if he really did forge an item that lets him be immune to fire (say a ring of fire immunity, which is of the grade we're talking about to no sell a meteor swarm) then he'd be at level 35. If he has another 9th level spell (like Gate), he levels up again. If he has another Epic spell, he levels up again. If he has more epic spell slots, he levels up more. This is annoying because we're likely to see all these things as the plot progresses, and it's going to get to the point where Xykon's level is absurdly implausible (and people will be asking "why didn't he use that last time he was in dire straights!?")

Ohh, so its rediculous, left field asspulls when it doest support your theory, but Xykon's own word is clearly not enough in a situation where he doesnt have any need to lie?

Dark Matter
2012-02-07, 12:41 PM
Xykon's own word is clearly not enough in a situation where he doesnt have any need to lie?SoD shows Xykon lying purely for fun when he had no need, especially to LG types. My books aren't handy but I think he also says something like "I'm a total liar".

Further in the current OOTS (#833) he once again lies (he gave T that copy of the spell).

This is a guy who lies for fun and pain giving advise on how to destroy himself. Roy shouldn't trust what he's saying and neither should we.

EDIT: This is the same reason why we can't trust that he's the level 35 he'd need to be in order to make a ring of energy immunity.

sr123
2012-02-07, 01:28 PM
There's more evidence Xykon is above 27 than there is he is 21.

Can't you just list both? There are two camps in dispute: 21+ and 27+. Each can be at least illustrated by a specific comic that can be linked. That is much more useful for the casual curious reader, for whom the first post of this thread should be directed.

sidenote: Personally I agree with 27+, but I'd rather 21+ be listed as well with the link to Xykon saying so, just for my reference, and 27+ be listed as (consistent with spells cast) or whatever.

On silver rapier: Wasn't there also Elan trying to attack a demon and being frustrated that his rapier wasn't doing anything? That's terrific motivation to get the silvering done at town before they set off again.

On minimum point buys: I know it's pretty obvious that the Order used rolls to get their stats, but listing minimum point buys gives a quick, single measure of how powerful character A is compared to character B. Again, I think it's useful enough for the casual browser, as I once was, to include.

cd4
2012-02-07, 02:34 PM
SoD shows Xykon lying purely for fun when he had no need, especially to LG types. My books aren't handy but I think he also says something like "I'm a total liar".

I can give that quote for you:


:xykon: Hey, fun fact: If you beg for mercy, I'll let you live.
:eek: Please, sir, I have a wife and child back home! Have Mercy!
:xykon: Even more fun fact: I'm a total liar.
:eek:AARRGH!!

Okay :eek: is the best picture of a paladin but the only paladin picture in the standard set is Miko who is not good as this paladin.

Wolfe
2012-02-07, 02:37 PM
That said, I'm fine with a disputed tag on Qarr's familiarity (familiarness? familitude?).
I'm glad you're fine, but you left my primary request unanswered: we need clear, objective parameters for "disputed".





if two or three people think something and they can't convince anyone else to agree with them, that doesn't count.How many does it take?
I don't think it helps this thread to make it formally bureaucrating and state that a petition needs 50 signatures within two weeks, so we're not going to do that.

You cannot say "two or three? that doesn't count!" and respond to "then how many do count" with "we're not setting a number". Either there is a line between "doesn't count" and "counts", or everyone counts, including the two or three.

Clear and objective parameters are the only way "disputed" or other compromise terms can be used if they are going to serve as flame retardant at all. Since you've failed to provide any, I will make a proposal.

The thread rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229756) say: "[the Curators'] sole responsibility is to maintain lists of information as represents the threads community's conclusions. Specifically, the curator cannot [...] make any sort of executive decision on what is or is not included in the opening post of a curated topic."

My proposal is this: things are "disputed" when people dispute them. Your only job is to write it down.


If you have a better proposal, please bring it forward.

Once&FutureKing
2012-02-07, 03:13 PM
Oh, but he CAN get there under his own power, he just has to die.

He doesn't need to be able to access the astral plane via a known spell.

From the looks of it, he went there once, and stayed until his fortress was done.

Now that he has the phylactery, he's going back to have RC cast spells on the fortress and leave the phylactery there.

I am pretty certain he has no intention to go back there except when his body is destroyed, so a single scroll to get there the first time plus another scroll to get out of there when he is destroyed and regenerated.

There is no point in Xykon casting spells on his sanctuary to alert him about intruders if he only intends to go there under the circumstances of death. Try again?

RMS Oceanic
2012-02-07, 03:26 PM
The thing about Xykon's dialogue in 442 is that unlike Belkar saying he has a wisdom penalty or Haley saying she's chaotic good, Xykon's ruminations about how much he outlevels Roy by is speculation rather than his stating a hard fact. "Seven levels higher than you? Eight? More?"

Flame of Anor
2012-02-07, 03:28 PM
The thing about Xykon's dialogue in 442 is that unlike Belkar saying he has a wisdom penalty or Haley saying she's chaotic good, Xykon's ruminations about how much he outlevels Roy by is speculation rather than his stating a hard fact. "Seven levels higher than you? Eight? More?"

Yes, quite. He's just bantering with some guesses.

SaintRidley
2012-02-07, 03:40 PM
Just popping a question here. I'm sure it's already been considered in a previous iteration of the thread, but here goes:

Have we ever seen Xykon maximize a spell more than once in a day? Could he just have Sudden Maximize as a feat? It's 1/day maximize spell with no spell slot adjustment.

zimmerwald1915
2012-02-07, 03:44 PM
Just popping a question here. I'm sure it's already been considered in a previous iteration of the thread, but here goes:

Have we ever seen Xykon maximize a spell more than once in a day? Could he just have Sudden Maximize as a feat? It's 1/day maximize spell with no spell slot adjustment.
Does it matter? Xykon could have both Maximize and Sudden Maximize, if he has any feat that allows him to Maximize a spell at all instead of using a rod. Personally, I think he only has Maximize Spell because having three ways to Maximize your spells is a silly redundancy, but being able to Maximize more than one spell per day does not exclude Sudden Maximize, just as being able to Maximize more than three spells per day excludes a metamagic rod.

Ancalagon
2012-02-07, 04:04 PM
TI think we need to discuss whether we should always strive for the lowest level with any explanation, or should this remain within the context of using core-only explanations unless there literally aren't any?

I would suggest we stay as much to core as possible. The exceptions should be a) when there simply is no core-explanation even near or b) when it is stated in-comic (or by comment from Rich) it's non-core.

As for levels, I think it would be the most sane option to always assume a midlle ground. If we we see a certain deed that either requires "Min Level + Ultra High Stat" or "Very High Level + Not-So-High Stat" I think we always should assume "Medium + Medium Stat" if that combination can explain what we see.
I think evading borderline-extremes is more appropiate.

If there is no option to go for the middle ground, we should assume the lowest possible levels as it is easier to get items or stats than level. This of course turns around when the stat-boost or item would be significantly above what a character of the relatively low level should have.
For the high-ends (Xykon, Redcloak) we should probably always try to minimise the level-creep. As far as core permits it, the principle of minimising the level creep should never be the altar on which the saner solution gets sacrificed.

SaintRidley
2012-02-07, 04:17 PM
Does it matter? Xykon could have both Maximize and Sudden Maximize, if he has any feat that allows him to Maximize a spell at all instead of using a rod. Personally, I think he only has Maximize Spell because having three ways to Maximize your spells is a silly redundancy, but being able to Maximize more than one spell per day does not exclude Sudden Maximize, just as being able to Maximize more than three spells per day excludes a metamagic rod.

I'm thinking that it might be worth it to consider it as a possibility as Xykon's only maximizing effect. It avoids the issue of the invisible rod but still leaves him at the same minimum as if he had a rod, keeping the possibility a happy one that doesn't involve Xykon having three improved spell capacities and level 27+

Ancalagon
2012-02-07, 04:24 PM
Btw, this thought just crosses my mind. What prevents us from listing serveral versions of a character?

The use of spoiler-tags allows to easily collapse and condense the spam of a second or third version into two or three lines. With that, there could be a "leading version" (core only, following some principle of minimising the level) that is non-spoilered and a second spoilered version that is more free in regard to using higher levels, items we have not seen explicitly, or (very carefully introduced) non-core material?

Douglas
2012-02-07, 04:26 PM
I think some guiding principles should be:
A) When possible, stick to core.
B) Assume major magic items will be shown or mentioned if they exist.
C) Assume simplicity when not contradicted by the evidence.
D) See the quote:

As for levels, I think it would be the most sane option to always assume a midlle ground. If we we see a certain deed that either requires "Min Level + Ultra High Stat" or "Very High Level + Not-So-High Stat" I think we always should assume "Medium + Medium Stat" if that combination can explain what we see.
I think evading borderline-extremes is more appropiate.

Sudden Maximize and pretty much all metamagic reducers are excluded by A, and a metamagic rod is excluded by B. That leaves Improved Spell Capacity x3.

Once&FutureKing
2012-02-07, 05:27 PM
Please remember also that Xykon has spell slots above level 9 regardless of Maximised Energy Drain. He uses things like Still Meteor Swarm too. Even if we ignored Maximized Energy Drain, I'm pretty sure there'd be enough evidence to peg him at clearly above 21 anyhow.

Flame of Anor
2012-02-07, 05:31 PM
Btw, this thought just crosses my mind. What prevents us from listing serveral versions of a character?

The use of spoiler-tags allows to easily collapse and condense the spam of a second or third version into two or three lines. With that, there could be a "leading version" (core only, following some principle of minimising the level) that is non-spoilered and a second spoilered version that is more free in regard to using higher levels, items we have not seen explicitly, or (very carefully introduced) non-core material?

I really like this idea. Basically, whenever something is disputed, the more conservative version (usually that will be just "not there") goes into the basic, unspoilered version, while the more out-there version, if it has a decent amount of support, goes into the big, speculative, spoilered version.

Vargtass
2012-02-07, 05:40 PM
Haley's ranks in Pick Locks should be 15+. The linked comment by The Giant lists her ranks at 12th level. She is now at level 15 (at least) and may have increased the skill.

Flame of Anor
2012-02-07, 05:43 PM
Haley's ranks in Pick Locks should be 15+. The linked comment by The Giant lists her ranks at 12th level. She is now at level 15 (at least) and may have increased the skill.

It's called Open Lock now, but yes.

Kish
2012-02-07, 07:22 PM
I think Xykon is certainly at least level 27. However.

If "assume the lowest consistent character level, raise every other 'established minimum' stat as much as possible to fit that" is an established guiding principle of this thread, then he has to be listed as level 21+ in his primary description, not 27+. "Disputed" tag optional. Because right now, it looks like what we have is a goofy, arbitrary rule which leads to goofy conclusions about Celia's established Charisma--and for some reason isn't being applied to Xykon.

I do not believe we should be assuming the lowest level, at a priority above assuming (e.g.) the lowest Charisma, at all. Returning to the Celia example, Celia is either at least level 7, or has a Charisma of at least 16. Either one will explain what she's done in the comic. If I was guessing privately, my guess would be that both are true. However, for this thread, she should be listed with it being made clear that she might have either one of them, with no bias in either direction, because that's what accurately reflects our knowledge.

sr123
2012-02-07, 07:38 PM
As for levels, I think it would be the most sane option to always assume a midlle ground.

That's not helpful to people who only read the first page. Let me say this again, since people keep ignoring it:

LIST BOTH!

When two established camps give radically different levels (Xykon 21+ or 27+, Celia 7+ or Cha16+), list both with the appropriate comic link, especially because 21+ has a single main strip that is cited. Everyone's rehashing the same arguments, and it becomes kinda silly and uncivil when "front page" is on the line.

Dark Matter
2012-02-07, 08:53 PM
There is no point in Xykon casting spells on his sanctuary to alert him about intruders if he only intends to go there under the circumstances of death.Good point.


LIST BOTH!

When two established camps give radically different levels (Xykon 21+ or 27+, Celia 7+ or Cha16+), list both with the appropriate comic link, especially because 21+ has a single main strip that is cited.Occam's razor... (the law of parsimony, economy or succinctness), is a principle that generally recommends that, from among competing hypotheses, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions usually provides the correct one, and that the simplest explanation will be the most plausible until evidence is presented to prove it false.


Have we ever seen Xykon maximize a spell more than once in a day? Could he just have Sudden Maximize as a feat? It's 1/day maximize spell with no spell slot adjustment.Advantages:
A1) X wouldn't need three epic feats in his build. Presumably this reduces his level to 21+.

Disadvantages:
B1) Requires him to have a higher Chr to explain 7 9th level spells in SoD.
B2) Non-Core.
B3) Seriously important non-core stuff is normally mentioned; Much worse, this was in the middle of a scene showcasing Xykon's power.
B4) Still Meteor Swarm would also need explaining.
B5) Reducing his level also reduces his max Spellcraft ranking, which then raises the question of how he can toss around Superb Dispelling.

Note level 27 already requires a level of min/maxing for Spellcraft that we normally don't see in OOTS. Level 27 also means Xykon was lying about that ring of energy immunity, but I don't have a problem with that.

sr123
2012-02-07, 09:15 PM
Occam's razor...

In other words, you refuse to compromise.

Does it not occur to you that two people might differ on what the simplest explanation / fewest assumptions may be? I think that's why there's an argument in the first place.

Dark Matter
2012-02-07, 09:38 PM
In other words, you refuse to compromise. I look at list "A" and list "B" and say that the former looks a lot more simple to me.

To be fair, I do think that this issue comes up enough that it deserves a mention in the FAQ just as V's necro spell used to deserve a mention.

Does it not occur to you that two people might differ on what the simplest explanation / fewest assumptions may be? I think that's why there's an argument in the first place.I don't consider myself an expert in 3.5, it may be that points B1 through B5 (above) can be addressed in a way which makes them more desirable.

But camp "21+" needs to go through that list and do some footwork. To date the attempts I've seen have fallen apart.

Chronos
2012-02-07, 09:46 PM
I'll throw in with liking the notion of multiple versions. Going back to Occam's Razor, the simplest assumption is to assume nothing at all.


B5) Reducing his level also reduces his max Spellcraft ranking, which then raises the question of how he can toss around Superb Dispelling.I think we should probably just consider epic spells in general to be Acts of Plot. Sure, Superior Dispelling and Epic Mage Armor are listed, but any by-the-book statting out of Cloister or Familicide is going to be well into the absurd range.

Fitzclowningham
2012-02-07, 10:03 PM
Apologies if this has been addressed before - I follow the thread(s), but can't be sure I've seen every post, but how can Xykon have 13 feats? If I understand correctly, he'd have 2 feats at first level for being a human, and then 1 for every level divisible by 3. This would give him 9 feats at 21st level and 11 at 27th. Unless I'm missing something, he'd need to be level 33 to have 13 feats. I looked in the SRD, PH, and MM, and couldn't find anything like bonus feats or lich bonus feats, etc.

MesiDoomstalker
2012-02-07, 10:08 PM
Apologies if this has been addressed before - I follow the thread(s), but can't be sure I've seen every post, but how can Xykon have 13 feats? If I understand correctly, he'd have 2 feats at first level for being a human, and then 1 for every level divisible by 3. This would give him 9 feats at 21st level and 11 at 27th. Unless I'm missing something, he'd need to be level 33 to have 13 feats. I looked in the SRD, PH, and MM, and couldn't find anything like bonus feats or lich bonus feats, etc.

Epic levels in a class gives you bonus feats from a special list made for each class. Thus, if Xykon was 27+ he'd have a few epic bonus feats to spend on Improved Spell Capacity and other epic level feats.

Once&FutureKing
2012-02-07, 10:45 PM
I'll throw in with liking the notion of multiple versions. Going back to Occam's Razor, the simplest assumption is to assume nothing at all.

I think we should probably just consider epic spells in general to be Acts of Plot. Sure, Superior Dispelling and Epic Mage Armor are listed, but any by-the-book statting out of Cloister or Familicide is going to be well into the absurd range.

I don't agree Epic Spells are acts of plot. Firstly, Familicide is a spell given to a caster who was themost powerful evil caster to ever live, so I'm totally fine with it having that sort of power. It backs up what we know about Haerta... that she was insanely powerful, much stronger than Ganonron (a guy who could conquer "world after world", and cast Epic Teleport, itself an insane spell).

I will leave it to the D&D experts, but I'm sure Cloister could be statted to something reasonable.

As for Xykon's crafting feat, even assuming he's lying, he discusses his crafting feat in private with Redcloak, so he's clearly got some good crafting feats (enough for 8 hours per day of creating magic items), so I'm dubious he lied about the ring he forged... it's also more likely he forged it than it is that Xykon was able to "buy it on E-Bay"... that's an Epic item, the likes of which few casters who live (or lived) could create.

Dark Matter
2012-02-07, 11:18 PM
I don't agree Epic Spells are acts of plot. Firstly, Familicide is a spell given to a caster who was themost powerful evil caster to ever live, so I'm totally fine with it having that sort of power. It backs up what we know about Haerta... that she was insanely powerful, much stronger than Ganonron (a guy who could conquer "world after world", and cast Epic Teleport, itself an insane spell).

I will leave it to the D&D experts, but I'm sure Cloister could be statted to something reasonable.The unstat'ed Epics we (more or less) have to handwave since they're unstat'ed. The Cannon Epics are different because they're cannon. The rules encourage house-epic spells, if Rich didn't want a solid Spellcraft rating then Xykon could have cast "Epic Dispel". Instead we've got one scene where Xykon (apparently without cheese) casts a 10th level spell, a 12th level spell, and a 59 DC epic level spell.

One statement from Redcloak or Xykon on how only losers don't min-max would have been funny and lowered Xykon's level... but imho we're not supposed to look for ways to lower Xykon's level. Imho that scene is effectively a message from the author. I don't see why we should be looking at hidden cheese.


As for Xykon's crafting feat, even assuming he's lying, he discusses his crafting feat in private with Redcloak, so he's clearly got some good crafting feats (enough for 8 hours per day of creating magic items), so I'm dubious he lied about the ring he forged... it's also more likely he forged it than it is that Xykon was able to "buy it on E-Bay"... that's an Epic item, the likes of which few casters who live (or lived) could create.Yeah, that's adding insult to injury. These are hints that even the above scene is a lower bound, not an upper. IMHO it doesn't rise to the level of "proof", but it's strongly suggestive of level 35+, that he didn't min/max to get his Spellcraft level.

Chronos
2012-02-08, 02:21 AM
Oh, and I think I said this in the previous iteration of the thread, but depending on interpretation of the rules, you might not need an epic ring to protect against Meteor Swarm. A Greater Ring of Energy Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#energyResistance) might do it, if the resistance applies separately to each meteor. Unfortunately, the rules are inconsistent on just how energy resistance works, whether it's x per source or x per round.

Once&FutureKing
2012-02-08, 03:01 AM
It can't be proved definitively at this stage, but that said Xykon does say "immune to", and frankly I think he'd need to be immune to it to take zero damage from a point blank meteor swarm. I don't read that as energy resistance to each meteor separately at all, especially not when they all connect simultaneously, and the explosion is confined to the same area (ie, him)

SaintRidley
2012-02-08, 03:23 AM
From Meteor Swarm:


(Fire resistance applies to each sphere’s damage individually.)

So, assuming a greater ring, we're looking at max 6 damage per sphere or 24 damage total (the bludgeoning damage would get negated because the meteors aren't enchanted, so they can't get by DR).

Which is about as immune as it gets without actual complete immunity.

Ancalagon
2012-02-08, 03:26 AM
As for Xykon: I am also in the 27+ camp and think what we saw is beyond a "barely epic" character (all details aside). This is no contradiction to what I wrote about minimising levels earlier as I think that "a high level for Xykon" is the more simple solution to explain what we saw.

In general, I am for listing ranges as well if something is disputed instead for deciding for one version and alienating the people from the other camp, especially as no side has a real "proof" (if there was, there would be no dispute).
If we want, we can bold (underline, whatever) the more probable value (or at least that which got the most votes).

Yendor
2012-02-08, 03:55 AM
Have we ever seen Xykon maximize a spell more than once in a day?

He cast Maximized Energy Drain on Darthsuvius, and later Maximized Lightning Bolt on O-Chul.

FlawedParadigm
2012-02-08, 08:53 AM
Max'd Bolt is only a sixth level slot. Samantha could have cast that, let alone Xykon.

Claudius Maximus
2012-02-08, 09:06 AM
Just going to mention yet again that there is a non-epic (though non-core) ring that grants fire immunity. I'm not saying we should put it in there, but it does mean that Xykon can theoretically be immune to fire without being level 35.

zimmerwald1915
2012-02-08, 09:24 AM
Max'd Bolt is only a sixth level slot. Samantha could have cast that, let alone Xykon.
That wasn't said in the context of the debate over Xykon's level, but in the context of the debate over how Xykon manages to Maximize things. This impinges on the debate over Xykon's level because if he uses the Maximize Spell feat (as suggested, but not proved, by being able to Maximize more than one spell per day) then Maximized Energy Drain can only be explained in such and such a way.

Emanick
2012-02-08, 09:53 AM
From Meteor Swarm:



So, assuming a greater ring, we're looking at max 6 damage per sphere or 24 damage total (the bludgeoning damage would get negated because the meteors aren't enchanted, so they can't get by DR).

Which is about as immune as it gets without actual complete immunity.
I agree with this. It seems more logical to assume that Xykon is slightly misrepresenting the power of his item than to assume that he's eight levels higher than he otherwise needs to be. Because the latter is a MASSIVE assumption.