There's a Fighter for that... [PF]

[OracleofSilence]

So, in Pathfinder, the Fighter is still fundamentally the fighter.

We all know that. It still relies on bonus feats, an it still needs a source of pounce, which is now even harder to get.

However, its got all these nifty Archetypes, giving the class a lot more versatility, even if each individual character doesn't ever experience all of it.

Now, I am about to start a horror campaign in Pathfinder, with a very green party. I am the only player that really has any knowledge of optimization, and as such i really want to reign it in, so as not to scare the new guys, and more importantly, o keep the game fun and challenging.

Th question: what are the best Fighter archetypes and for what reason. Similarly, which ones should i avoid?

Essentially, i have not had time to try any of these out and this is my first Pathfinder game, even though i have played a lot of 3.5. Any advice (party is 20 point buy if it matters).

[Jack Zander]

Two-handed fighter seems like the best route to go. It gives you plenty of options for when you can't make that full attack, and bonuses to damage when you can.

[Bhaakon]

It would be helpful to know what kind of character you're playing, but here's a general list:

Mobile Fighter and Dawnflower Dervish are generally highly ranked because they give you a poor man's version of pounce at level 11.

Tactician and Lore Warden give you extra skill points and class skills, which make you less of a burden outside of combat (at least until mid-late levels, when skills start loosing relevance). They also come with other abilities that are at least a little useful.

Unbreakable gives you a somewhat respectable defense against magic.

If you're just going for a vanilla sort of fighter, I'd consider one of those 5 archetype over the unaltered base class.


There are other archetypes that are good for specific type of builds, but not as broadly useful: Brawler are very good at locking down opponents and disrupting unoptimized casters, Polearm master for reach/AoO builds, Crossbowman (which potentially makes crossbows better than bows, depending on how your DM adjudicates readied actions) for ranged, Two handed fighter for sundering builds, Unarmed fighter for grappling. Cad can also be fun, but its more flavorful than effective. The remainder I'd avoid like the plague.

[Doc Roc]

Crummy pounce at 11?! My god....

[Wings of Peace]

Woah woah woah. Before we get hasty and suggest fighters who get pounce at 11 lets take a step back and remember that Synthesist Summoner 1 nets us pounce.

[Haron]

Woah woah woah. Before we get hasty and suggest fighters who get pounce at 11 lets take a step back and remember that Synthesist Summoner 1 nets us pounce.

How would that work, exactly?
As i see it, you can dip Summoner 1, but then your Eidolon (with which you merge) stays at level 1, and you use its BAB and saves, no matter how good yours will be.
Did i misunderstand something?

[Crasical]

How would that work, exactly?
As i see it, you can dip Summoner 1, but then your Eidolon (with which you merge) stays at level 1, and you use its BAB and saves, no matter how good yours will be.
Did i misunderstand something?

It's been Errata'd.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz

When fused, use the eidolon's BAB instead of the summoner's class BAB, and add in BAB from other sources as normal. For example, a fighter 19/summoner 1 normally has a total BAB of +19 (+19 from fighter, +0 from summoner), and when fused with his eidolon this increases to +20 (+19 from fighter, +1 from the 1st-level eidolon).

EDIT: Also, how is Crossbowman at all better than a normal bow? You only get dex-to-damage on Readied actions, so you lose out on iteritives.

EDIT X2: Oh, wait. Is it vital strike?

[Xander96]

The vanilla fighter is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Weapon training & armor training are actually quite good. Sure the archetypes give you more flavor, but the vanilla fighter gives you more versatility.

[Xander96]

It's been Errata'd.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz


EDIT: Also, how is Crossbowman at all better than a normal bow? You only get dex-to-damage on Readied actions, so you lose out on iteritives.

EDIT X2: Oh, wait. Is it vital strike?

Heavy crossbow does 1d10 vs 1d8 for a bow

[Hiro Protagonest]

The vanilla fighter is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Weapon training & armor training are actually quite good. Sure the archetypes give you more flavor, but the vanilla fighter gives you more versatility.

I would rather be a mobile fighter than a vanilla fighter. I get the armor trainings that actually matter, and trade out the minor bonuses for some decent tricks. Plus, Leaping Attack is basically a bonus to attack and damage whenever you 5 ft step. Dawnflower dervish is restricted more to light armor, but I don't like heavy armor that much anyway.

If I expect to face opponents with SLAs or spells, such as in an outsider-heavy campaign, I would much rather be an Unbreakable.

And when there's nothing else, I'd rather get Tactician or Lore Warden, and their ability to use the swift action at high levels.

[Cieyrin]

EDIT: Also, how is Crossbowman at all better than a normal bow? You only get dex-to-damage on Readied actions, so you lose out on iteritives.

EDIT X2: Oh, wait. Is it vital strike?

Vital Strike doesn't make it worth it, since Dex isn't multiplied. I honestly don't know what they expect out of Crossbowman that makes it work out better. I like crossbows, I do, I just don't think the archetype does crossbows any favors. I'd rather go Ranger for archery.


Heavy crossbow does 1d10 vs 1d8 for a bow

That's not a worthwhile difference, when you need Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery to get up to speed, which, again, Rangers can pick up without meeting the prereqs. Rangers can make them work, Fighters have to soak through lots of feats to catch up, including Rapid Shot which you can't even use till you have Crossbow Mastery on a Heavy Crossbow.

[Xander96]

Fighters gets loads of feats so that wouldn't be a problem.

Unbreakable replaces all of your weapon training & armor training. So essentially you're losing +4 to your max dex ac, -4 to skills that have the armor check penalty Applied, dr 5/-, & +4 to your ab & damage. Thats a lot to give up if you ask me.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Unbreakable replaces all of your weapon training & armor training. So essentially you're losing +4 to your max dex ac, -4 to skills that have the armor check penalty Applied, dr 5/-, & +4 to your ab & damage. Thats a lot to give up if you ask me.

It seems you're overrating their abilities.

+4 max dex isn't +4 AC. Mithral full plate with 14 dex doesn't have any less.

It's -4 to skills in mithral full plate, for an extra +3 armor bonus over mithral breastplate with a -2 or +5 over mithral chain shirt with -0. Really, if you plan on using athletic skills, you're not going to be wearing full plate.

That DR 5/- is a capstone. If you want to see appropriate damage from a brute monster at this level, look at the adamantine golem. Not dragon, dragons are spellcasters with an extra AoE. Not balor or pit fiend, those have way too many SLAs to NOT be a magic-user.

As for the +4 to attack and damage, that's a nice feature, but good saving throws are better.

[Bhaakon]

EDIT: Also, how is Crossbowman at all better than a normal bow? You only get dex-to-damage on Readied actions, so you lose out on iteritives.

Oh, you're right. Missread the "quick sniper" ability to mean that you can ready an attack as an immediate action, my bad.

Still, the crossbow's increased critical range + critical feats are a big advantage later on. The extra feat cost is tough to swallow at low levels (particularly for non-human players), but becomes almost trivial later.

[Xander96]

I think that's what I had in mind when comparing the bow to the crossbow.

Also, I'd like to note I play a vanilla fighter that fights 2 handed & do quite well. 24 str, +1 weapon. My attacks are as follows...I'm a 11th lvl fighter, +23/+18\+13. 1d12 +16 & then when I add PA. I'm adding another +9 damage. I dont disagree that the paladin is much better than the fighter.

[Blisstake]

Personally, I think vanilla fighter makes an amazing archer with all the bonus damage they can get to each individual with a combination of weapon spec, training, and deadly aim.

I'd be careful with synthesists however. Not all DMs are okay with them (they're, frankly, one of the worst written and least clear archetypes in the game), and keep in mind that the eidolon replaces your physical stats with its 14/14/13. You can still give it magic items, but it won't get levelling/racial bonuses, and they are initially pretty crappy. Also makes you susceptible to banishing, but that's not really a big deal.

[Crasical]

I'd be careful with synthesists however. Not all DMs are okay with them (they're, frankly, one of the worst written and least clear archetypes in the game), and keep in mind that the eidolon replaces your physical stats with its 14/14/13. You can still give it magic items, but it won't get levelling/racial bonuses, and they are initially pretty crappy. Also makes you susceptible to banishing, but that's not really a big deal.

They're so -cool- though!

[Blisstake]

So are truenamers.

[Curious]

So are truenamers.

That's not any kind of fair comparison. Truenamers are broken because they just don't work without heavy optimization, whereas Synthesists work just fine with some DM rulings. They aren't even as powerful as a regular Summoner, so power's not really an issue.

[Blisstake]

It's not a direct comparison. I'm saying something being cool doesn't make it good to play, although I realize it was a joke.

Edit: Although I do think being able to swap your physical stats is entirely against what PF tried to change about Polymorph/Wildshape. I'd go almost as far as to call it a broken mechanic.

[Curious]

It's not a direct comparison. I'm saying something being cool doesn't make it good to play, although I realize it was a joke.

Edit: Although I do think being able to swap your physical stats is entirely against what PF tried to change about Polymorph/Wildshape. I'd go almost as far as to call it a broken mechanic.

I don't think it's really broken, since anyone who really wants to make use of it has to take a lot of levels in Synthesist, and Synthesist is straight up weaker than a normal Summoner.

[Blisstake]

By broken mechanic, I don't mean balance-wise. I mean that it's against the philosophy and the rule changes behind the core rules of PF, only to randomly return in one of the supplement books. And a mechanic that I think the game could do without, frankly.