Reasonable child stats

[Adindra]

my next character im planning is a dread necromancer child very loosely based on Claudia from interview with a vampire but ive been having trouble figuring out decent stat penaltys and or bonus's for a child character.


im thinking a young enough age where she would be small sized but human so i was looking for negatives to offset the bonus feat

[Dr. Yes]

This (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1) should be fine, honestly. Depending on how young you make her, -2 or -4 on Wis and Int might also be called for---a centuries-old monstrosity with a child's brain will still have a child's cognitive limitations, after all.

[Adindra]

This (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1) should be fine, honestly. Depending on how young you make her, -2 or -4 on Wis and Int might also be called for---a centuries-old monstrosity with a child's brain will still have a child's cognitive limitations, after all.


that looks really good im gonna talk to my dm about the wis and or int penalty's but thank you very much!

[Zombulian]

I know there is a homebrew one on the DnDWiki that seems a little less trustworthy than this Pathfinder one :smalltongue: but it has some cool stuff... Mainly the -1 LA :smallbiggrin:

[Slipperychicken]

I know there is a homebrew one on the DnDWiki that seems a little less trustworthy than this Pathfinder one :smalltongue: but it has some cool stuff... Mainly the -1 LA :smallbiggrin:

So we all lose a level when we grow up? That makes sense. /sarcasm

[Curious]

So we all lose a level when we grow up? That makes sense. /sarcasm

No, you just lose the -1 LA. Children still have only a single character level, they're just weaker.

[Prime32]

This (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1) should be fine, honestly.I have an undead wizard, who never fights physically. Apparently granting him +4 Dex and a higher size bonus to AC weakens him so much that he gets a free level?
Also... that template does not have an LA.

If you want a human child, just use strongheart halfling (halfling with a bonus feat, basically).

Or there's a Tome feat (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Child_Necromancer_%283.5e_Feat%29).

[Andreaz]

a centuries-old monstrosity with a child's brain will still have a child's cognitive limitations, after all.

Which mostly happen to be cognitive improvements compared to adults.
Much of the child's mindset comes from the fact that it had little time to learn, not that it is biologically young.
Different amounts of exposure cause variance over the mindset compared to the age...you bet a 300 years old child won't think anything like a young child actually does.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

A kid should be no match for an adult in about everything.

All the modifiers (bonus or malus) granted by ability scores are reduced by 4
The actual score is unchanged, only the modifier is reduced.
It counts when determining HP, skill points, DCs, dice rolls etc
At the age of 8, this malus is reduced to 3
At the age of 11, this malus is reduced to 2
At the age of 14, this malus is reduced to 1
At 17, this malus disappears

Whenever the malus is reduced, you gain more HP and Skill Points as if you never had the removed malus


Example:

A 12 years old fighter 4 with these ability scores:

STR 18 (+4, reduced counts as +2)
DEX 12 (+1, reduced counts as -1)
CON 14 (+2, reduced counts as 0)
INT 12 (+1, reduced counts as -1)
WIS 10 (+0, reduced counts as -2)
CHA 8 (-1, reduced counts as -3)

Has -1 to initiative (will become +0 at the age of 14, and +1 when he is 17)
Has 10+3d10+0HP (will recieve 4HP when he turns 14 and 4 more when he is 17)
Has 4 skill points (will recieve 0 when he becomes 14 and then will get 4 points when he becomes 17)

[Prime32]

A kid should be no match for an adult in about everything.But this is fantasy...
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperStrongChild
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChildMage

NPC kids might be like that, but for a PC you represent weakness with being lower level (or using an NPC class). PCs are supposed to be at the same level of power, so just make it an exceptional child - you can have a 10-year-old with Str 18 if in their backstory they were blessed by a deity or something.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

But this is fantasy...
That 12YO fighter is pretty good, he can easily defeat a group of standard adults (commoners) and even some soldiers (he probably hits harder than the average 4th level npc combatant if he got wep.specialization)

If he was a Wizard, he'd be able to use 2nd level spells (with the DC being lowered by 2, and so the damage... but still pretty deadly)

So, basically, he is already so much better than normal people.
If he keeps adventuring he will eventually become a super-kid.

If you feel that it's too unbalancing, one could rule that kids get slightly more exp...
as actually happens, TBH, cause they learn faster compared to adults.

[DoctorGlock]

As is often the case, it is best to ignore realism in favor of ease of play and fun. Getting -4 on everything is not fun. Just use descriptions to show that you are a child, RP it out, ignore any need for clunky modifiers.

Reflavoring a strongheart halfling will however get you something close enough. Halflings are about 3-4 feet tall, so you get child size in there and you can assume the racial penalty equals what you would get for being a kid.

It's fantasy, it runs on handwavium anyway.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

De gustibus.
D&D isn't suited for 6YO children, core rules won't even let you adventure if you are not an adult.
You want to be a kid?
It is fun to have kids limitations.

[DoctorGlock]

D&D is rules heavy and combat heavy by default with built in power by level expectations. Taking a -4 on everything essentially means you are 4 levels lower than you should be and will rarely to never succeed on a given task. Sitting there and being ineffective for an entire game is not particularly fun.

If this was a freeform, sure, no problem fluffing a weak child and being a weak child. In a game that reads like a law book and is primarily devoted to killing things and taking their stuff? Yeah, being 4 levels behind and not having the score needed to cast your spells and a pitiful DC is a huge problem.

D&D at default already assumes this. Why do halflings, despite being child sized, only have -2 str? Because -4 would be an insurmountable power difference. Really, when in doubt err on the side of less restrictive.

tl;dr: a player should never be punished for playing something not "normal", it's the player's character, let them play it

[FMArthur]

I really wouldn't do anything about it that provides benefits in anything but size because that's not how growing up works. The absolute worst, most common suggestions are to give them higher dexterity and charisma for obnoxiously arbitrary reasons that are not quite true even by the game's own often idiotic ability score logic. So don't do that.

Anyway, to answer, I would give a -1 penalty to all stats for being under 14 as a human, and another -1 for every two years below that. That's not all that severe and exceptional scores shine through pretty easily from 10-13, so it's still workable for fantasy hero children. I'd give -1 size category for being under 8 and another for being under 4. A creature below that is not really capable of being useful in an adventure - autofails at everything wouldn't be crazy, and the minimum stat possible would be 1 instead of 3 for that age range.

In a real game, being between 10 and 13 is pretty usable for a child alongside other adventurers. Below that is workable as a special circumstance that is agreed upon just for roleplaying, like being another character's apprentice or follower, but otherwise it would be for special adventures because the disadvantage gets significant.

[Ellrin]

Sorry, I know nothing about interview with a vampire, so this may have been obvious otherwise, but what roughly what (physical) age were you planning on giving this child? That's kind of important, especially to physical ability score modifiers.

There's also a (1st level only) homebrew feat I found somewhere on the internet that I tried out for my current character in a campaign I'm in, called Child Necromancer. The main gist of it is making the character one size category smaller, imposing a -4 to Str, and granting a +4 to caster level on Necromancy spells. Flavor-wise, it stunts growth permanently, though doesn't prevent age-related stat penalties/bonuses from accumulating.

...so yeah, kind of broken for a dedicated necromancer of any stripe, but it could conceivably be tweaked.

[Helldog]

Jaela Daran (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/jaela-daran), an eleven year old Cleric of Silver Flame, has normal attributes without any modifiers for young age. They just asigned the lower scores from elite array to physical attributes to model a childs fitness.
(The stats in that link should be accurate, she's in Faith of Eberron, IIRC.)

[lunar2]

children absolutely should not take penalties to mental ability scores. children are just as intelligent (INT) perceptive (WIS) and stubborn (CHA) as adults, if not more so. the "cognitive limitations" that children have are not the result of an inferior brain, they are the result of simply having less time to learn and establish thought patterns, which isn't an issue with a 90 year old vampire.

now, claudia was 9 years old when she was turned, iirc. I would say to simply take a human and make it small as per monster manual (-8 strength, +2 dex, -4 Con).

[Helldog]

take a human and make it small as per monster manual (-8 strength, +2 dex, -4 Con).
Actually it's -4 Str, +2 Dex and -2 Con.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases

[FMArthur]

Size categories are pretty wide-ranging, keep in mind, and disparities of a single size category are relatively massive. A Small character is half the height of a Medium creature of similar proportion according to stuff that alters size. If it's anything to go on, the race compilation pictures in the PHB portrays this as well with halflings and gnomes relative to humans and half-orcs. Dwarves are a head taller than gnomes and are Medium, so 'the line' is probably pretty close to what a gnome is.

After looking at charts from a "height by age" Google search, even my suggestion put the Small-to-Medium size change happening too late in development. A 9-year old girl is gonna be Medium even if you take the top 5th percentile for men as being the baseline for Medium (which is very unlikely to be the case).

[Ellrin]

Size categories are pretty wide-ranging, keep in mind, and disparities of a single size category are relatively massive. A Small character is half the height of a Medium creature of similar proportion according to stuff that alters size. If it's anything to go on, the race compilation pictures in the PHB portrays this as well with halflings and gnomes relative to humans and half-orcs. Dwarves are a head taller than gnomes and are Medium, so 'the line' is probably pretty close to what a gnome is.

After looking at charts from a "height by age" Google search, even my suggestion put the Small-to-Medium size change happening too late in development. A 9-year old girl is gonna be Medium even if you take the top 5th percentile for men as being the baseline for Medium (which is very unlikely to be the case).

Are we assuming that the character is human? Because all I've heard so far is vampire, which can be any humanoid; and an elf or dwarf at about that stage of development is going to be shorter--I did a lot of ratio-based calculations for my child elf character's height and weight (stopping his growth at roughly 8 in human years, whatever that would be in elf-terms), and he came in healthily at roughly 3'11 and 38lbs. Keep in mind, also, that a full-grown dwarf, while maybe not much, if at all, taller than a 9-year-old human girl, is still going to be much larger--he/she'll weigh much more, and probably be twice the girth. I know D&D size categories are primarily determined by the longest dimension, but I don't think they are (or if they are, they shouldn't be) determined exclusively by them.

[Palanan]

I would definitely consider weight as well as height. As a very general average, a nine-year-old runs about 60-65 pounds. By contrast, my own size category is technically Medium, and I weigh more than three times that much. (Call me Medium-plus. :smallfrown:) I think there's a good case for classifying the nine-year-old as Small, especially given the relative effects to AC and etc. (For anyone who doubts this, I suggest a Nerf gun duel as a practical test.) I would be more likely to consider them as on the upper end of the Small category, rather than an outlier in the Medium.

Also, we need to keep in mind that both these variables--height and weight--are tremendously influenced by nutrition, which has strong cultural and economic components. If you want to be detailed about this, a lot will depend on where your nine-year-old came from.

[gkathellar]

As is often the case, it is best to ignore realism in favor of ease of play and fun. Getting -4 on everything is not fun. Just use descriptions to show that you are a child, RP it out, ignore any need for clunky modifiers.

+1 to this.

Going by the stories, Musashi first killed a man in self-defense at 13. I've met an ex-marine who claimed to see three of his squad-mates laid out in a couple of seconds by a 10-year-old Muay Thai student. If a player wants to run a character like that, more power to them.

[FMArthur]

Are we assuming that the character is human? Because all I've heard so far is vampire, which can be any humanoid; and an elf or dwarf at about that stage of development is going to be shorter--I did a lot of ratio-based calculations for my child elf character's height and weight (stopping his growth at roughly 8 in human years, whatever that would be in elf-terms), and he came in healthily at roughly 3'11 and 38lbs.
Well, this character is being based on an existing fictional human vampire. If OP is going by what Wikipedia says her age in the book is (6 years), if she's near average she'll still exceed the minimum height of a female dwarf (3'9"). If you're going by the film, she's absolutely tall enough to fit into Medium and is well above dwarf height.


Keep in mind, also, that a full-grown dwarf, while maybe not much, if at all, taller than a 9-year-old human girl, is still going to be much larger--he/she'll weigh much more, and probably be twice the girth. I know D&D size categories are primarily determined by the longest dimension, but I don't think they are (or if they are, they shouldn't be) determined exclusively by them.
It may be dumb, but height really is the determining factor of a bipedal creature's size category in D&D, or at least has every sign of being so. Like I said, each size category accommodates a very wide range of body shapes; 65lb avariels, 438lb (wtf!) half-orcs, dwarves, goliaths, and any of those with Deformity: Obese or Deformity: Gaunt are all the same size category, so weight and girth are either extremely lenient or outright meaningless for size. The idea seems to be that, for the rules to bother differentiating between creatures' sizes, it takes a much greater disparity in size than might seem reasonable to us.

[lunar2]

So, i was wrong on a couple of points.

1. claudia wasn't 9, she was 5 or 6, and described as small, with a delicate build.

2. I got the size modifiers wrong, as was pointed out.

still, a smaller than average 5 or 6 year old would definitely qualify as small class, and so would get -4 str, +2 dex, -2 con. i think that this would be a fair enough representation of a child of that physical age.

[Ellrin]

So, i was wrong on a couple of points.

1. claudia wasn't 9, she was 5 or 6, and described as small, with a delicate build.

2. I got the size modifiers wrong, as was pointed out.

still, a smaller than average 5 or 6 year old would definitely qualify as small class, and so would get -4 str, +2 dex, -2 con. i think that this would be a fair enough representation of a child of that physical age.

While those scores may or may not accurately represent a child in that stage of development (I haven't put a lot of thought into what a 5 year old's stats compared to an adult's might be), I think it's worth pointing out that the monster manual's "advancement" by size change is supposed to represent simply a resized, but fully developed, member of that race.

One thing I can say for certain, a five or six year old metabolizes much faster than an adult (meaning he'll require more food by body mass, and will have more stamina and energy). I don't know if that would be preserved in an undead, but if so, it might be worth including a few adjustments to saves against fatigue and exhaustion. And with those undeveloped legs, running may naturally be at 3x base land speed instead of 4x. If we really want to take this mechanical adjustment as far as accurately as possible.

[Tyndmyr]

my next character im planning is a dread necromancer child very loosely based on Claudia from interview with a vampire but ive been having trouble figuring out decent stat penaltys and or bonus's for a child character.


im thinking a young enough age where she would be small sized but human so i was looking for negatives to offset the bonus feat

I believe Mongoose published rules for these in their Ultimate Sorcerer book.

[Adindra]

i figured that 6 was a little too young to be adventuring regardless so i went with 10 and looked up average irl height weight charts for people by age online which put her at around 4'7'' and 30lbs for a girl (idk if that makes sense or not its just what i found online)

I'm playing her as a necropoliton and my dm has told me shes been dead for about 75 years+ so i don't have to take any mental penalty's if any would apply and i looked at the pathfinder child thing but the +4 size bonus to dex seems a bit too much to me now (my dm ok'd it but on a second glance meh)

seeing as i dont need the con and im a primary spellcaster and minon controller the strength negative doesnt bother me either so somehow mechanically i ended up ontop (she starts us with the stats 18 16 16 14 14 14 unless we roll better)

[Ellrin]

i figured that 6 was a little too young to be adventuring regardless so i went with 10 and looked up average irl height weight charts for people by age online which put her at around 4'7'' and 30lbs for a girl (idk if that makes sense or not its just what i found online)

I'm playing her as a necropoliton and my dm has told me shes been dead for about 75 years+ so i don't have to take any mental penalty's if any would apply and i looked at the pathfinder child thing but the +4 size bonus to dex seems a bit too much to me now (my dm ok'd it but on a second glance meh)

seeing as i dont need the con and im a primary spellcaster and minon controller the strength negative doesnt bother me either so somehow mechanically i ended up ontop (she starts us with the stats 18 16 16 14 14 14 unless we roll better)

A ten year old human should not weigh 30lbs, no matter what gender. 4'7 is just about exactly average for a (human) girl that age, but a healthy weight range for that height and age is roughly 60-85 lbs. I can see removing maybe up to a third of that in water weight, depending on how dessicated you want her to be, but 30lbs is just too light to be realistic.

Also, you have a very generous DM.

[Adindra]

A ten year old human should not weigh 30lbs, no matter what gender. 4'7 is just about exactly average for a (human) girl that age, but a healthy weight range for that height and age is roughly 60-85 lbs. I can see removing maybe up to a third of that in water weight, depending on how dessicated you want her to be, but 30lbs is just too light to be realistic.

Also, you have a very generous DM.

agreed on the generous dm and the 30lbs i probably just really really messed up my math somewhere the 60 sounds more reasonable i think ill go for about 65-70

and i keep forgetting to tell you guys that shes human :smallredface:

and shes trying to force a +1 to my cha even though im arguing against it (for balance sake even though plus 1 cha isnt that huge its still a buff to my main casting stat for free)

[Crasical]

Pathfinder Vampire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire) with the 'Ancient Youth' variant ability?



Ancient Youth (Su): A vampire with this ability transformed into one of the undead at a very young age, and has been trapped within an adolescent body for an existence possibly measuring in centuries. Vampires with this ability are size Small and gain a +4 bonus on all Bluff checks. (+0 CR)

[Ellrin]

What's the LA on that? I don't see it anywhere in the template description. I know it says CR+2, but I've seen plenty of disparity between CR adjustments and LA in templates before.

[Crasical]

Pathfinder just has CR, no LA.

[Ellrin]

Pathfinder just has CR, no LA.

Oh. I suppose I should probably get around to looking into PF one of these days.

[Dire Reverend]

If we include homebrew, I made a child template (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Child,_DR_Variant_%283.5e_Template%29).

Not all children are weak, useless and unable to become adventurers early in their life. Some are stuck on a timeless plane, where they never age, and others are just naturally gifted and are able to adventure at an early age.

Creating a Child

When a man and a woman love each other very very much...

Just kidding. The Child template is inherited. It can only be placed upon a creature that ages, or used to age, such as undead.

Size and Type

The size of the creature lowers by one step.

Speed

Despite being smaller than their full-grown counterparts, Children do not get any penalty to speed.

Abilities

-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity. Children are much weaker and less developed than an adult, but they are more agile and energetic.

Level Adjustment

+0

[Prime32]

^ Child halfling rogue or wizard = Tiny PC with +4 Dex.

[Ashtagon]

Which mostly happen to be cognitive improvements compared to adults.
Much of the child's mindset comes from the fact that it had little time to learn, not that it is biologically young.
Different amounts of exposure cause variance over the mindset compared to the age...you bet a 300 years old child won't think anything like a young child actually does.

Actually, it is known among cognitive development circles that there are physical changes that occur in a human brain throughout childhood that not only affect how quickly you learn, but what can be learned. If you somehow managed to take a child, stop them ageing physically, then keep them alive for a hundred years, they'd still have much the same level of mental development as a child, because the physical connections normally present in an adult had never formed.

ETA: Sorry, spilt science in everyone's fantasy again.

[Adindra]

Actually, it is known among cognitive development circles that there are physical changes that occur in a human brain throughout childhood that not only affect how quickly you learn, but what can be learned. If you somehow managed to take a child, stop them ageing physically, then keep them alive for a hundred years, they'd still have much the same level of mental development as a child, because the physical connections normally present in an adult had never formed.

ETA: Sorry, spilt science in everyone's fantasy again.

i never knew that, i guess you learn something new everyday :smallsmile:

[FMArthur]

If we include homebrew, I made a child template (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Child,_DR_Variant_%283.5e_Template%29).

Not all children are weak, useless and unable to become adventurers early in their life. Some are stuck on a timeless plane, where they never age, and others are just naturally gifted and are able to adventure at an early age.

Creating a Child

When a man and a woman love each other very very much...

Just kidding. The Child template is inherited. It can only be placed upon a creature that ages, or used to age, such as undead.

Size and Type

The size of the creature lowers by one step.

Speed

Despite being smaller than their full-grown counterparts, Children do not get any penalty to speed.

Abilities

-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity. Children are much weaker and less developed than an adult, but they are more agile and energetic.

Level Adjustment

+0
Basically, free size reduction and a Dexterity bonus. I gotta repeat this: being a child should not present you with greater advantages than being an adult.

[Ashtagon]

Just thinking, for teenagers, and even younger children, there is probably a justification for imposing a Dex penalty, or at least no Dex bonus, because children grow so fast that they literally haven't had time to learn the limits of their current size and reach and so on before they have grown enough again to force them to relearn all that.

[Crasical]

Basically, free size reduction and a Dexterity bonus. I gotta repeat this: being a child should not present you with greater advantages than being an adult.

But neither should it be an excessively penalized, untenable option.

[FMArthur]

Of course. But it should be a disadvantage, and not for realism but for the fantasy archetypes you would want to play as a child for. You're not as awesome as you will be as an adult, and you're kicking ass despite it. You're growing up by going on an adventure, following your heroes, learning from your master, etc.

Being a child is a special role playing thing for a campaign, and even if you refuse to accept any disadvantage in your desire to play a role that effectively comes down to 'disadvantaged', you should at the very least not be better than an adult at what you're doing unless it's fitting through tight spaces because when you mature, that means you got worse at it. I'm not saying you have to be crippled and useless here at all. Just not fully developed.

[Zonugal]

Why don't you use the rules from d20 Modern for children?

20ft. movement, -3 Str, -1 Dex, -3 Con, -1 Int, -1 Wis, -1 Cha, 1d4HD, no skills, feats or levels.

[Ashtagon]

Doing it rationally, I think we can define at least three age categories...

(warning: science ahead)

Cognitively, it makes no sense to play a character younger than 5 years or so. Below that point, cognitive development has not yet developed to the point where a person even has a long term memory. Not even the greatest genius among us can directly recall events below a certain age, although they may well recall descriptions of those events told to them once they are older.

Based on this chart (http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data/set1clinical/cj41l021.pdf), we reach the following heights at about the following ages:

{table=head] Height | Average Age
3 ft | 2.5 yrs
4 ft | 7.5 yrs
5 ft | 12.5 yrs
[/table]

4 ft just happens to be the cut-off point between Small and Medium size. So we can make the following size categories based on ages. Numbers and size classes assume human standards. Adjust as appropriate for other game races.

{table=head] Age | Age Category | Size Class
0-4 | Infant; unplayable | w/e
5-7 | Child | Small size (3½-4 ft)
8-12 | Preteen | Medium size (4-5 ft)
13-14 | Teenager | Medium size (5+ ft)
15+ | SRD Adult | Medium size (5+ ft)
[/table]

Of these four playable age categories, SRD adults need no further explanation. For other age categories, I'd apply the following. Note that none of these actually gain any bonuses to any ability score. While Dexterity might be expected to increase with smaller size, this is countered by the fact that the youth is still getting used to their new reach and height, and the rapid growth that comes with childhood rapidly renders any such understanding obsolete (the "gangly teenager" effect). Also note that the mental penalties reflect the fact that the brain has not yet developed the cognitive functions for advanced levels of thought, analysis, contemplation, deception, or other social interaction.

Child (5-7 years)


Smaller: A child is considered to be one size class smaller than an adult of their race. This may affect natural AC according to this table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases), carrying capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm), and various other aspects as shown in this table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat).
Slower: Shorter legs, yo. Children have a base speed of approximately 2/3 that of an adult. A base speed of 20 ft becomes 15 ft; 30 ft becomes 20 ft; 40 ft becomes 30 ft.
-6 Strength, -4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -6 Wisdom, -4 Charisma. These ability modifiers replace those that may be gained from the size class change.


Preteen (8-12 years)


Adult Size: A preteen is considered to be the same size class as an adult of their race.
Slight Build: A preteen is considered one size class smaller for purposes of determining their encumbrance limit. If the race normally has powerful build, this is lost, but the character does not gain the slight build disadvantage as described here.
-4 Strength, -2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -4 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.


Teenager (13-14 years)


Adult Size: A teenager is considered to be the same size class as an adult of their race.
-2 Strength, -2 Wisdom. A teenager has not yet grown into adult strength, nor do they have the wisdom that comes with maturity.

[Crasical]

When was the last time you played in a campaign long enough that you actually advanced an age category, though? A young PC should be playable on the promise that 'you'll get better eventually (when you age up and the penalties disappear), promise'. That's like taking a class that's fundamentally useless up to level 20, where they suddenly can cast gate at will. It doesn't work for the truenamer, either.

We can have Old Masters, because sometimes the penalties to physical stats are worth the +1-3 to mental stats being old grants. Can we not have child heroes where the penalties -they- take are worth the benefits?

[Ashtagon]

When was the last time you played in a campaign long enough that you actually advanced an age category, though? A young PC should be playable on the promise that 'you'll get better eventually (when you age up and the penalties disappear), promise'. That's like taking a class that's fundamentally useless up to level 20, where they suddenly can cast gate at will. It doesn't work for the truenamer, either.

We can have Old Masters, because sometimes the penalties to physical stats are worth the +1-3 to mental stats being old grants. Can we not have child heroes where the penalties -they- take are worth the benefits?

Can't say I ever have. I wasn't aiming at balanced when I wrote those numbers out; I was aiming at "strict realism". I don't know if I succeeded in that goal or not.

As others have noted, just play a stoutheart hobbit and call it a child if you want to ficus on the "fun flavourful" side.

fwiw, I'd never use the old age rules either, because they are plainly ridiculous imho.

[Toliudar]

Are there no parents on this forum? The discussion is moot because the requested creature, 'reasonable child', does not exist. Not in reality, not in fantasy. Never.

[Helldog]

Are there no parents on this forum? The discussion is moot because the requested creature, 'reasonable child', does not exist. Not in reality, not in fantasy. Never.
The stats are supposed to be reasonable, not the child.

[Ashtagon]

Another way to build a child without losing out compared to adult characters is to do point buy, choose a Strength and Wisdom score slightly lower than you might otherwise choose (use those saved points for something else), and then role-play the hell out of it.

[Dire Reverend]

Note: I may be biased toward said template I suggested. Please keep that in mind.

Well, this thread asked for a reasonable child stat. Those ability adjustments, while they may be realistic, they would make for a poor character.

Remember that D&D is a fantasy game. My template was not for the average child, it was for a child with extenuating circumstances that would make them appropriate for an adventurer. Asking for realism while fighting against dragons, minotaurs, and kobolds seems a bit silly to me. :smalltongue:


Basically, free size reduction and a Dexterity bonus. I gotta repeat this: being a child should not present you with greater advantages than being an adult.
As for saying that there is no absolutely no penalty to taking the template I suggested, there are the normal penalties to lowering in size (Ex. Medium to small: -4 to bull rush, grapple, overrun and trip (+4 to hide checks, woo!), they use smaller weapons that deal less damage, lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character), and the -2 to strength, which lowers their carrying capacity even more. Races that are already small don't have any extra penalties to their size other than ones listed above, and I don't see many people complaining about how halflings are overpowered because of their +1 to AC and to hit.

I do think that you would have to do something else for children of races that are small to begin with. I was intending this template to be for medium races and larger.

[FMArthur]

Please think about more than the plainest type of melee character concept when balancing races. Is a -8 Strength +8 Intelligence race balanced to you? Guess who's going to be using that race. Yeah, probably not a barbarian. Probably not anyone who cares at all about how good their ability to wrestle gorillas might be. And size reduction isn't even the same type of 'penalty' as that - strength loss is at least universally negative even if many aren't bothered by it, but size reduction is actually desirable to a lot of characters so it's a whole other ball game there.

[Gotterdammerung]

my next character im planning is a dread necromancer child very loosely based on Claudia from interview with a vampire but ive been having trouble figuring out decent stat penaltys and or bonus's for a child character.


im thinking a young enough age where she would be small sized but human so i was looking for negatives to offset the bonus feat

Well all the children I have met have like

4 str
6 dex
6 con
6 int
2 wis
20 or 1 charisma depending on how hungover I am.

But if you ask their parents its more like

10 str
15 dex
15 con
32 int
20 wisdom
100 charisma

[Curious]

-Snip-

While these adjustments might be realistic, they are also utterly crippling to pretty much all types of character. Personally, I would suggest something like:

Child

- 1 size category.
- 10 to all movement speeds.
- 4 strength.
- 2 wisdom.


Preteen

Slight Build, as the kobold class feature.
- 2 strength.


Simple, and disadvantageous to nearly everyone. Spellcasters still benefit some from reduced size category, but there aren't many ways to create a physically weak race variant that doesn't.

Maybe toss on an intelligence penalty to child as well, if you really want to.

[sreservoir]

While these adjustments might be realistic, they are also utterly crippling to pretty much all types of character. Personally, I would suggest something like:

Child

- 1 size category.
- 10 to all movement speeds.
- 4 strength.
- 2 wisdom.


Preteen

Slight Build, as the kobold class feature.
- 2 strength.


Simple, and disadvantageous to nearly everyone. Spellcasters still benefit some from reduced size category, but there aren't many ways to create a physically weak race variant that doesn't.

Maybe toss on an intelligence penalty to child as well, if you really want to.

slight build is almost universally positive, and -2 str is often negligible; prefer to use whichever would be more detrimental, possibly.

[Curious]

slight build is almost universally positive, and -2 str is often negligible; prefer to use whichever would be more detrimental, possibly.

Well, yeah, there are some advantages to being small. I didn't really want the template to be hugely negative anyways; the character is still a PC, which means they are still a hero. Unless you are playing in a campaign where all the PCs are meant to be underdogs (kinda like a kobold campaign), I wouldn't want to penalize a character unduly for being a child.

[Ashtagon]

slight build is almost universally positive, and -2 str is often negligible; prefer to use whichever would be more detrimental, possibly.

I'm curious here. As I wrote it, slight build is only ever a penalty. I am aware that some people have a Slight Build race feature that is essentially "take teh better or your size or the size below's bonuses or penalties". But where did that one come from? I don't recall seeing it in a published book.

[Toliudar]

I believe Slight Build is from the kobolds section of Races of the Dragon. Or possibly the...yes, the web enhancement here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a).

[Ellrin]

Just thinking, for teenagers, and even younger children, there is probably a justification for imposing a Dex penalty, or at least no Dex bonus, because children grow so fast that they literally haven't had time to learn the limits of their current size and reach and so on before they have grown enough again to force them to relearn all that.

That may be the case for a child still developing, but we're talking about a child who's been at the same stage of development for 70+ years; and you're also not taking into account the fact that a child or teenager is much more flexible than an adult--why do you think the Chinese gymnastics Olympians are always so young small? A child/teenager who's had sufficient time to grow accustomed to his body (nine or ten years of (actual, not physical) age or older) is almost always going to be more dextrous than a 25 year old, assuming no recent growth spurts.


lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character)

I always considered that a strength of small characters, considering the fact that the equipment they use and the food they require weighs half that of a medium character using the same build.


I'm curious here. As I wrote it, slight build is only ever a penalty. I am aware that some people have a Slight Build race feature that is essentially "take teh better or your size or the size below's bonuses or penalties". But where did that one come from? I don't recall seeing it in a published book.

It seems to be in a Web Enhancement for RotD:
"Slight Build: The physical stature of kobolds lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A kobold can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a kobold remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category."
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a

[lunar2]

@mental penalties. it seems that we have some people that don't remember being children. children are capable of learning more quickly than adults, and are generally more perceptive. I'm not saying that children know as much, or have trained themselves to sort out all the things they notice, simply that the raw capability is there. what the people advocating mental penalties are trying to justify is merely a skill penalty or lack of skill ranks, not an ability penalty.

children are typically 0th level commoners. claudia is not a 0th level commoner, she likely more of a 5th level rogue (i know the OP wants dread necro, i'm just saying what the actual claudia would be). it is also explicitly stated in the book that she has the mind of an adult. while that may mean that she is not the average child, PCs are not average people, so it's not an issue.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

what the people advocating mental penalties are trying to justify is merely a skill penalty or lack of skill ranks, not an ability penalty.
This is not true.
A mind is not fully developed until a certain point.
The "default network" (dmn), for example, becomes entirely functional between 9 and 12 years.
Yes, kids learn fast, but altough they have more flexibility, their thought lacks depth.

[Ashtagon]

@mental penalties. it seems that we have some people that don't remember being children. children are capable of learning more quickly than adults, and are generally more perceptive. I'm not saying that children know as much, or have trained themselves to sort out all the things they notice, simply that the raw capability is there. what the people advocating mental penalties are trying to justify is merely a skill penalty or lack of skill ranks, not an ability penalty.

As a child, I thought I was a gosh-darned genius, and my classmates were almost as gifted. As an adult, I became a teacher. This rapidly disabused me of the notion that children are brilliant.

Your childhood illusions of being clever are created because school is an environment designed to only challenge children to the extent that they are able to cope. Six-year olds (the mid-point of D&D style Small size) typically haven't yet grasped the concept of right and wrong behaviour, such as that things can belong to other people and so it's wrong to take those things. Your average seven-year old will be completely lost if you given him trigonometry, and Mozart's symphonic writing was the exception, not the norm.

Relevant link is relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_and_child_psychology


children are typically 0th level commoners. claudia is not a 0th level commoner, she likely more of a 5th level rogue (i know the OP wants dread necro, i'm just saying what the actual claudia would be). it is also explicitly stated in the book that she has the mind of an adult. while that may mean that she is not the average child, PCs are not average people, so it's not an issue.

No idea who Claudia is. Not sure if it's relevant to my point about designing statistics for realistic children.

As I noted earlier, if you want 'fantasy' children, refluff a halfling for a small child, or point-buy and RP the hell out of it for early teen children.

[Ellrin]

No idea who Claudia is. Not sure if it's relevant to my point about designing statistics for realistic children.

Neither do I, but I do know that she's who OP said he was loosely basing his character on, so that does seem a little important to the topic at hand.

[Ashtagon]

Neither do I, but I do know that she's who OP said he was loosely basing his character on, so that does seem a little important to the topic at hand.

Okay, reading up on the character, it seems the actress who played her on film was 12 at the time (preteen in my categorisation). So, Medium size, point-buy as appropriate, see if you can persuade your GM to have kobold-style Slight Build as your bonus feat, and then apply necropolitan template.

Job done.