Sneak Attacks With Fireballs

[Rubik]

Is it my imagination, or can you do this?

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm):

You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.The spell allows for a ranged touch attack to hit things (in this case, the example is a hole). This means you should be able to sneak attack things you hit with it.

Similar things happen with Delayed Blast Fireball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/delayedBlastFireball.htm) and Tornado Blast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/tornadoBlast.htm).

[NinjaStylerobot]

Its true, but targeting their head, knees or face makes no difference. Thats why it doesn't count.

Unlike disintegrate where if your face melts off it hurts more.

[Mystify]

No. the spell doesn't do damage when it hits, that is just where it centers the area.

[Keneth]

Unfortunately that's not how it works.

But you can sneak attack with a fireball (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-trickster#TOC-Surprise-Spells) in Pathfinder.

[Rubik]

No. the spell doesn't do damage when it hits, that is just where it centers the area.That doesn't matter, according to the description of sneak attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack).

All that counts is that the effect is an attack (and allows for an attack roll), the target's Dex is negated (or it's flanked), and that the effect deals damage and isn't explicitly negated through concealment, etc.

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

[Unusual Muse]

Holes do not have vital organs and therefore are not subject to sneak attacks. :smallbiggrin:

[Amphetryon]

What you're attempting to hit with a Fireball's RTA is an opening, not a target. Fireballs target a point in space, or an individual.

To Sneak Attack with a Fireball, use Ocular Spell or similar.

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, the only time there is a ranged touch attack is when something is potentially blocking it. For normal targeting purposes (barring the Pathfinder class feature exception), no, no you can not.

[Psyren]

You could always spellwarp them too. It's not really a "ball" at that point, but the bugbears won't care when you're burning holes in them.

[Rubik]

Holes do not have vital organs and therefore are not subject to sneak attacks. :smallbiggrin:That depends entirely on whose hole it is.

[ericgrau]

The attack roll is for the harmless orange bead that streaks to a point before detonating. You can't sneak attack with it any more than you could sneak attack with a rubber band.

[Zombulian]

I want to go make a sneak who's main damage is done with Iaijutsu Focus and Sneak Attack... with rubber bands.
+1 on the ocular spell and spellwarp vote. And lol'd at the "depends on whose hole :smallbiggrin:"

[Rubik]

And lol'd at the "depends on whose hole :smallbiggrin:"I was, of course, referring to Neth: The Plane That Lives. I'm sure there are all sorts of hidey-holes in there.

[Benly]

Technically I'm pretty sure this is actually correct and you could sneak attack with the non-damaging bead. The problem is that sneak attacking adds the same kind of damage as the original attack and hence sneak attack on non-damaging attacks doesn't actually do any damage. So you'd sneak attack with the bead, not do any extra damage, and then the explosion would cause its normal damage.

If you have an ability that automatically triggers when you successfully sneak attack without relying on damage being dealt or sacrificing damage dice, it would probably trigger. But there are also probably easier ways of doing that.

[Golden Ladybug]

The attack roll is for the harmless orange bead that streaks to a point before detonating. You can't sneak attack with it any more than you could sneak attack with a rubber band.

And what would stop you from Sneak Attacking with a Rubber Band? Presumably, it would count as an Improvised Weapon, so as long as you fulfil one of the conditions for Sneak Attacking, that Rubber Band would allow you to roll a ton of d6s

I'd assume a similar occurrence would be the case for the harmless bead.

[candycorn]

When you complete casting a spell, you aim the spell. That aiming is at a grid intersection. Subsequent ranged touch attacks, made as part of your action, do not change that. When you cast this spell and aim it, you have no target.

Since you are not targeting anything, you cannot deal sneak attack damage, since it requires your target be denied dexterity modifier to AC. If the thing you hit isn't technically your target, this provision cannot be met.

[Benly]

And what would stop you from Sneak Attacking with a Rubber Band? Presumably, it would count as an Improvised Weapon, so as long as you fulfil one of the conditions for Sneak Attacking, that Rubber Band would allow you to roll a ton of d6s

Only if the rubber band actually deals damage. I don't remember if this is clarified in the core rules or subsequent errata/clarifications, but I'm fairly sure it's out there somewhere.

If you rule otherwise, why bother with rubber bands? Just flank and make unarmed, nondamaging touch attacks. The benefit of touch sneak attacks will outweigh any damage loss from not using a damaging weapon.

(As a note, the spellthief description explicitly specifies that spell-stealing by touch is only possible against a willing target, which seems to indicate that it's at least intended that nondamaging touches shouldn't deal SA.)

[Golden Ladybug]

Well, I'd presume you could pull that Rubber Band back and flick someone with it. I'd say that could potentially deal some (Non-Lethal) Damage :smallbiggrin:

However, as far as I'm aware, the Rubber Band has never been given any stats, and, by RAW, wouldn't really "exist" in D&D, so that argument depends on how your DM is feeling when you try it.

Although, if said Rubber Band was used by a Drunken Master with some way of getting Sneak Attack Dice, say dips in Rogue or Swordsage... Well, that's certainly one way of proving that you can Sneak Attack with Rubber Bands.

But kind of pointless, and except in a similar situation or depending on DM adjudication, the Rubber Band's worth as a way to Sneak Attack is dubious at best.