How do you kill a demilich? [3.5]

[thereaper]

This is a question that's been eating at me for a while. Demiliches have:

- Epic spellcasting
- 180 ft fly speed
- Special defenses up the wazoo
- Magic immunity (and not the "infinite SR" variety; this is pure "no, it doesn't affect it unless the creature's entry says otherwise or it's the creature's own abilities")

Short of being of a high enough level that you can just crush it in a spasm of physical brutality, how would you actually go about killing a demilich? Forget the phylactery, just the demilich itself.

It's immune to AMFs, it flies 180 ft per round, spellcasting allows it to phase through solid objects/teleport/plane shift away if things start going bad, it's a full caster...

So, what would work?

[TheMooch]

I don't see anything in their entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm) about immunity to AMFs. I would suggest natural attacks, antimagic field and a grappler.

You will of course need a way to defend against the spells and epic spells.

A second way would be a cleric with a pumped up turning and the sun domain so it is destroyed when turned. then you would have your own spell casting as well as clericzilla options.

[Mystify]

I've never been sure if the epic monsters having the absolute magic immunity was just an artifact from 3.0 or if it is supposed to be that absolute.

However, lets assume it is absolute immunity.

It only has 139 HP(using the basic demilich out off the SRD), so its not that hard to get a martial character to destroy it if they get an attack off. Epic hammer optional, but preferred.Even a shapeshifter with polymorph or similar can boost their melee up enough to tear it apart. So at that point its mostly typical mage vs. mage shenanigans.

[tyckspoon]

Any Epic-quality melee character that can lay a hit on it should be able to one-round it. It's got pretty cruddy HP for its CR (although somewhat decent AC thanks to that hefty Insight bonus on the Demilich template.) Lay a Disjunction on it to blow off any existing defensive spells it has and smash it. Then prepare to be incredibly paranoid, because Demiliches have Astral Projection at will, so all you did was annoy it and notify it that there is a force out there that is both capable of and intending to kill it.

If you want to do it with spells: Shatter and Holy Smite are the main holes in its magic immunity. Holy Smite is the better damage, but as a domain-only spell is much harder to get access to and to optimize the application of. Shatter is a mere level 2 Wiz/Sorc spell.. which means there's all *kinds* nasty stuff we can pile onto it. A Maximize-Twin Shatter will do 60 points targeting the demilich's weakest save. Throw in another one Quickened, or load them into an Arcane Fusion shotgun, or Timestop and set up a batch of Delayed Shatters.. most standard Incantatrix builds could pull this off pretty easily, and even less specialized Wizards could do it if the Demilich didn't kill them first.


A second way would be a cleric with a pumped up turning and the sun domain so it is destroyed when turned. then you would have your own spell casting as well as clericzilla options.

+20 Turn Resistance. Assuming an Epic caster as the base creature, you'd have to be able to Turn at least a 41 HD undead to make that work. That's.. I don't want to say it's impossible, but it's not easy. Assuming even CR and full turn progression from your levels, you'd get 29 base, +4 from your turning level check is 33.. need 8 points of increased effective turning level to be able to affect it, and then you need to roll well enough on your turning damage to actually turn it. Mind, 29 base from level plus a max roll hits the needed mark, so it doesn't take too much between Cha bonus and bonuses to turn damage to clear that hurdle.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Magic Immunity would not protect the spells it casts from magic effects, so Counterspelling and Dimensional Lock should still work against it. A Disjunction spell should dispel any buffs from it just as it would any other creature. AMF should also affect it normally. There's a big difference between being immune to magic which directly affects it, and being able to ignore any local ongoing magical effects. I'd say even a Silence spell would work normally against it, as long as it was not targeted directly on the Demilich.

Its nastiest ability is probably Trap The Soul. Everyone would need to be an Undead or Construct, or have Death Ward or similar with a high enough Fort save to never fail.

It doesn't have much HP, but its AC is up there. A decent Charging Smiteadin with (a Wand of) Wraithstrike could probably take it down in a single hit: Rhino's Rush + Valorous weapon is x3 charge damage, with +3 per Paladin level damage from Charging Smite should be more than its HP + DR, but you can throw Shock Trooper on there for good measure.

[Wings of Peace]

I don't see anything in their entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm) about immunity to AMFs. I would suggest natural attacks, antimagic field and a grappler.


In theory I think it's Magic Immunity ability negates the no-casting part of the amf since Magic Immunity is an Ex. and thus stays active in the field (the field which is a magical effect).

[tyckspoon]

In theory I think it's Magic Immunity ability negates the no-casting part of the amf since Magic Immunity is an Ex. and thus stays active in the field (the field which is a magical effect).

Nah. Anybody can cast in an AMF anyway, they don't do anything to stop the actual act of casting. The spells themselves get suppressed once they're cast, tho, and the Demilich's immunity doesn't extend to its spells.

[Steward]

How do you kill a demilich?

It kills you.

I would definitely not go near it if I didn't have Mass Death Worg Mass Death Ward.

A fight with a demilich is basically what they call "rocket tag", right?

[tyckspoon]

A fight with a demilich is basically what they call "rocket tag", right?

Pretty much all Epic fights are, but yeah, going against an Epic-leveled caster is rocket-taggier than most (and that's not even considering the Trap The Soul ability. I mean, it's bad, but at least it's only targeting one of you at a time when it does that. And it's not Gating a Hecatoncheires or something silly.)

[deuxhero]

Put the crown that explodes if you touch it with the scepter on it and touch it with the scepter!

[Calanon]

Pretty much all Epic fights are, but yeah, going against an Epic-leveled caster is rocket-taggier than most (and that's not even considering the Trap The Soul ability. I mean, it's bad, but at least it's only targeting one of you at a time when it does that. And it's not Gating a Hecatoncheires or something silly.)

Its funny because thats how i killed a Demilich before... in all fairness i gated the Hecatoncheries (i mean that singularly) to smash its last Soul Gem... while i was under rubble... at -2 hp... but i still won... eventually...

OT: Personally i can't think of a way to destroy a Demilich since the styles of hiding them vary incredibly from the transition of Lich to Demilich... Hell some Demilichs carry there Soul Gems on them so they can trap the soul whenever they want...

[Feralventas]

Use the epic spell seeds and the Tome of Battle to craft an Epic Maneuver.
"Superior Insightful Strike. "
Roll to hit. Hit? Concentration check x4 damage.

Probably something to that effect. Alternatively, be another demi-lich. Psion Uncarnate seems like another good way to approach this from the other end of things. Truename research would probably make it easier to deal with by debuffing it a smidgeon.

Realistically though, this is another one of those "How do you beat an optimized wizard" questions. Odds are the solution is going to be another optimized wizard. Demi-liches are complicated enough to be problematic for just about anyone. The most direct way to take them apart is to have the entire game at your disposal.

Also, thank you for asking this, totally going to include epic maneuvers in my future games.

[Zaq]

Use the epic spell seeds and the Tome of Battle to craft an Epic Maneuver.
"Superior Insightful Strike. "
Roll to hit. Hit? Concentration check x4 damage.

I bolded the part that's the problem. The demilich is like any other high-level caster . . . if you can get a solid melee hit in on it, it's doomed. Good luck hitting it in the first place, though. I somehow don't think it'll just let you.

[Grendus]

A demilich has a CR +6 higher than a lich of equivalent level, which is already +2 higher than a wizard/sorcerer/cleric of equivalent level, and must be level 21 to become a demilich. So a demi-lich is, at minimum, a CR 29 challenge. Even though the CR system is FUBAR, a demi-lich was designed as a very high level epic challenge. A level 29 wizard vs a level 21 wizard really comes down to who has better epic magic.

Honestly, the hard part isn't killing the demi-lich. It's killing the level 21+ spellcaster the demi-lich was prior to it's ascension. If we presume it doesn't have any spellcasting, it's fairly easy to kill, just do 149 damage to it before it gets to go. It's getting through the layered contingencies, the Celerity->Time Stop->No-Save-Just-Die->Teleport, or even getting close enough to the spellcaster to strike while he watches you from his private demi-plane where he hides at least one phylactery. It all comes down to how well he plays, unlike some of the epic challenges a demi-lich is truly terrifying.

[shadow_archmagi]

Interesting:



If the demilich is overcome before the soul is eaten, crushing the gem releases the soul, after which time it is free to seek the afterlife or be returned to its body by the use of either resurrection, true resurrection, clone, or miracle. If the demilich is overcome before the soul is eaten, crushing the gem releases the soul, after which time it is free to seek the afterlife or be returned to its body by the use of either resurrection, true resurrection, clone, or miracle


Someone should let them know about that

[Psyren]

I've never been sure if the epic monsters having the absolute magic immunity was just an artifact from 3.0 or if it is supposed to be that absolute.

The fact that they're also specifically immune to Supernatural abilities means that it is indeed stronger than the "infinite SR" version, as those would normally get through.

Having said that, I would Gate in the biggest bruiser I could google up and have my familiar get an AMF around them both.

[Mystify]

The fact that they're also specifically immune to Supernatural abilities means that it is indeed stronger than the "infinite SR" version, as those would normally get through.

Having said that, I would Gate in the biggest bruiser I could google up and have my familiar get an AMF around them both.
The demilich's grapple is -2... A familiar with an antimagic field should be able to hold on and never let go. Presuming it can get close enough to it.

[Psyren]

The demilich's grapple is -2... A familiar with an antimagic field should be able to hold on and never let go. Presuming it can get close enough to it.

Teleport/Dim. Door next to it, maybe?

The big problem is that it stills all spells, which presumably includes epic spells, so it could break the AMF with a Superb Dispelling if it knows that. However, they don't appear to have Epic Spellcasting.

[Mystify]

Teleport/Dim. Door next to it, maybe?

The big problem is that it stills all spells, which presumably includes epic spells, so it could break the AMF with a Superb Dispelling if it knows that. However, they don't appear to have Epic Spellcasting.
you can't do that from within the AMF, can you?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It entirely depends on how its Magic Immunity interacts with AMF. I'd rule it as follows:

The Demilich itself is immune to the AMF, its own spells and magical effects that target itself work normally.

It can cast instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) spells unhindered.

As per Rules Compendium, AMF doesn't block Line of Effect for spells, so it can cast any other spells and use its supernatural abilities, as long as they're targeted outside the AMF.

Its Phylactery Transference ability would function normally, since the items themselves wouldn't be in the AMF he would still gain their benefit.


That said, he almost definitely would have a Ring of Freedom of Movement, or at the very least have Heart of Water cast. You cannot grapple it or otherwise hinder its movement in any way.

[Psyren]

you can't do that from within the AMF, can you?

No, but you can share a Contingent AMF with your familiar (keyed to something like "I say the word squigglydoodlefluffer") then share Dim. Door with it (or have it use an item) to get to the Demilich. As it appears, as a free action that can be used out of turn you say the word. Both of your AMFs activate, but you can then dismiss yours and Call for backup while your familiar keeps the demilich under wraps.



That said, he almost definitely would have a Ring of Freedom of Movement, or at the very least have Heart of Water cast. You cannot grapple it or otherwise hinder its movement in any way.

An active AMF would suppress both of these.

[Mystify]

No, but you can share a Contingent AMF with your familiar (keyed to something like "I say the word squigglydoodlefluffer") then share Dim. Door with it (or have it use an item) to get to the Demilich. As it appears, as a free action that can be used out of turn you say the word. Both of your AMFs activate, but you can then dismiss yours and Call for backup while your familiar keeps the demilich under wraps.

I meant having the demilich breaking the AMF.

[Psyren]

I meant having the demilich breaking the AMF.

Epic spells can be cast inside one; as I said though, demiliches as written don't know any.

[Mystify]

Epic spells can be cast inside one; as I said though, demiliches as written don't know any.
"Antimagic field does not automatically suppress epic spells as it does standard spells. Instead, each time an epic spell is subject to an antimagic field, make a dispel check as a 20th-level caster (1d20 + 20). The epic spell has a DC of 11 + the epic spell’s spellcaster level. If the suppression check is successful, the epic spell is suppressed like any other spell. If the dispel check is unsuccessful, the epic spell functions normally."
So if your caster level is 30, you block all epic spells with your antimagic field anyways. Considering its a CR 29 monster, if you are facing it level appropriate it would have a very hard time cracking it open, even if it did have epic spells.

[Red_Dog]

Tbh, when it comes to something like this, I would nominate a Thri-Kren soulbow flack cannon for the shiny moment.

All the party has to do is to protect him, and themselves. From spells, abjuration would be the only requirement. Disjunction Contingencies and pull out every ward imaginable on the party.

Than watch as your Monstrous Humanoid friend lights up the sky. With woodland archer and average of +45and up[being conservative here] to hit... the floating head stands no chance.

Just make sure to pick a good battlefield. As open as possible, than Make sure your wizard didn't refused abjuration as a school heh ^^

P.S. The funniest part about all this non-sense is that even if a poor bug gets disjunction-ed, he does not loose ANY of his abilities/fighting potential! ^^ And if he is disjunction-ed, than the lich wasted his action for the round [as far as I can tell]. Hell, Thri-kreen can even ready an action if he feels cocky. If he is warded against soul eating, he readies vs spell casting. Than explodes the head when he tries anything.

My small contribution ^^

[Psyren]

So if your caster level is 30, you block all epic spells with your antimagic field anyways. Considering its a CR 29 monster, if you are facing it level appropriate it would have a very hard time cracking it open, even if it did have epic spells.

You're misreading the passage you just quoted. The AMF has a fixed-range CL check; it is treated as a 20th-level caster regardless of your own CL when you create it. The check range is therefore always 1d20+20.

Meanwhile, epic spells have a DC of 11 + CL - For the sample Demilich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm) (CL 21) this means the DC is 32; An AMF would therefore only suppress their epic spells on a 12 or higher, i.e. 45% chance to succeed. If the Demilich is higher, the odds increase in their favor even if your own CL keeps pace.


Tbh, when it comes to something like this, I would nominate a Thri-Kren soulbow flack cannon for the shiny moment.

All the party has to do is to protect him, and themselves. From spells, abjuration would be the only requirement. Disjunction Contingencies and pull out every ward imaginable on the party.

Than watch as your Monstrous Humanoid friend lights up the sky. With woodland archer and average of +45and up[being conservative here] to hit... the floating head stands no chance.

Unfortunately, Demiliches are immune to supernatural abilities - this includes Soulbow Mind Arrows.

[Mystify]

You're misreading the passage you just quoted. The AMF has a fixed-range CL check; it is treated as a 20th-level caster regardless of your own CL when you create it. The check range is therefore always 1d20+20.

Meanwhile, epic spells have a DC of 11 + CL - For the sample Demilich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm) (CL 21) this means the DC is 32; An AMF would therefore only suppress their epic spells on a 12 or higher, i.e. 45% chance to succeed. If the Demilich is higher, the odds increase in their favor even if your own CL keeps pace.


Ah, I see. That does make more sense.

In that case, make an epic antimagic field to counter it. Or have contigent anitmagic fields to go up when the previous one is countered.

[Psyren]

It's moot in any event - as-written, the demilich has no epic spells to worry about. If you're dealing with a custom demilich, you have much bigger problems than getting an AMF to stick, as once he gets epic spellcasting onto that chassis the game implodes.

[Red_Dog]

Unfortunately, Demiliches are immune to supernatural abilities - this includes Soulbow Mind Arrows.

Ha... would you look at that... I always though it was Psionic ability which would be by RAW a whole different can of soup. But if you are right, than =>

ANY archer. than ask wizard to kindly morph you into Arrow Daemon. You should win the initiative with the stat boost. You will also double the arrows shot. I mean granted you will not be making ludacris amounts of attack, but it will still be quite a lot. Again with woodland archer, you should be golden to hit at least few times.

[Mystify]

Ha... would you look at that... I always though it was Psionic ability which would be by RAW a whole different can of soup. But if you are right, than =>

ANY archer. than ask wizard to kindly morph you into Arrow Daemon. You should win the initiative with the stat boost. You will also double the arrows shot. I mean granted you will not be making ludacris amounts of attack, but it will still be quite a lot. Again with woodland archer, you should be golden to hit at least few times.

But then you have to go through its DR 20, unless there are bludgeoning arrows.

[blazingshadow]

say, can a demilich separate itself from the soul gems? doing that might give the lich a way out of an AMF by sucking the enemy's soul from a gem outside the field

[Psyren]

Ha... would you look at that... I always though it was Psionic ability which would be by RAW a whole different can of soup. But if you are right, than =>

Yep, supernatural. See for yourself. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2)

If they were psi-like it would be just as bad, unless we were using the Psionics Are Different variant rules. And if that were the case, you could use any psionic powers to beat it, rather than just mind arrows.

[Igneel]

Thri-Kren/Arrow Demon Archer build with a Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) that has been further enhanced with the Splitting [+2, Champions of Ruin] and maybe Magebane [+1 Complete Arcane/MiC] for 2 attacks per 'arrow' you would normally shoot that deals 2d6 force damage [bypassing DR] along with +2 to hit/+2d6 [against Arcane casters/SLA users] damage per 'arrow'.

Will obviously need to protect not only the archer, but its gear as well. I guess that's the price you have to pay when Su abilities like the Soulbow's arrows don't work.

[TheOasysMaster]

Put the crown that explodes if you touch it with the scepter on it and touch it with the scepter!
This doesn't work anymore.

[flabort]

HI! Just thought I'd pop by and - OMG WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO KILL A DEMILICH?! :smallmad:

... :smalltongue:


This is a question that's been eating at me for a while. Demiliches have:

- Epic spellcasting
That we do!

- 180 ft fly speed
- Special defenses up the wazoo
Technically speaking, we don't have Wazoos any more - Unless we chose to JUST be a wazoo, and none of my demilich freinds are, to my knowledge.

- Magic immunity (and not the "infinite SR" variety; this is pure "no, it doesn't affect it unless the creature's entry says otherwise or it's the creature's own abilities")

Oh, yes. Magic immunity. But unfortunately, not immunity to a Fullbladder Attack Droid's missiles. Long story, but I simply see that goblin as a rival.


Short of being of a high enough level that you can just crush it in a spasm of physical brutality, how would you actually go about killing a demilich? Forget the phylactery, just the demilich itself.

Only one phylactery? Demilich? You're forgetting Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery is an epic spell, here. :smalltongue:


It's immune to AMFs, it flies 180 ft per round, spellcasting allows it to phase through solid objects/teleport/plane shift away if things start going bad, it's a full caster...

Well, not IMMUNE, but pretty close. Only we're not completely full casters; A lot of us take PrCs, and then there's that LA...


So, what would work?

Hmm... If you're dead set on attacking us, I recommend Crusaders, or Concubine Assassins. Neither is likely to work, but unless there's a nearby Fullbladder Manufacturing Outlet nearby, they're your best options, as they've worked well against me... occasionally. I'll remind you of my response to "Forget the Phylactery", though.

If you try hard enough, you might research a modified Ice Assassin, but that's unlikely to work, either. Your best bet is simply to be higher level; and we level up as fast as you, only we live hundreds and thousands of years longer. So time travel, really, is the safest option.

That's giving that we don't use our divination power to predict that you'll try, though, and wipe you out first. :smallwink:

[Calanon]

HI! Just thought I'd pop by and - OMG WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO KILL A DEMILICH?!

I am going to sig this... and there is not a single Demon Lord in the Abyss that can stop me :smallamused:

[TypoNinja]

But then you have to go through its DR 20, unless there are bludgeoning arrows.

There are, Arms and Equipment, page 7. Lots of custom ammo. I carry the blunt ones for those pesky skellies.

[NNescio]

There are, Arms and Equipment, page 7. Lots of custom ammo. I carry the blunt ones for those pesky skellies.

http://ompldr.org/vY2xzbQ/250px-TrickArrow.jpg

[shadow_archmagi]

HI! Just thought I'd pop by and-

lend a hand?

[Dalek-K]

I think an Epic level Warblade would do just fine given that any save it would need to dish out would be a con check (they can afford a plus 20 or more skill item) and with manuevers that overcome hardness and DR (plus SR doesn't apply). The epic Warblade would need a manuever progression into the epic range but even if it chose another class or pristege class the warblade should be able to make the demilich a soccer ball.

[flabort]

The warblade should be able to make the demilich a soccer ball.

.............

Right. I should tell Randurn that the pattern of hexes and pents REALLY isn't a good idea right now.