Smallest playable character

[Mystify]

Suppose you want to play a character that is as tiny as possible. How tiny can you get? A small creature with a permanent reduce person can make you tiny. Any way to get even smaller? Preferably without LA, but present any LA-based options.

[Thurbane]

Jermlaine and Muckdweller are both tiny, playable LA +0 races, but neither qualify for Reduce Person. If there's a psionic equivalent, that should work.

[Chronos]

The psionic power Compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm) can bring you down two size categories and works on non-humanoids, but I don't know of any way to permanency it. The smallest LA 0 race is the Jermelaine, a Tiny fey, which is therefore not eligible for Reduce Person (but could use Compression). The smallest humanoids (which could be subject to a permanent Reduce Person) are all Small, so Reduce Person would just get you to the same size as a Jermelaine. And finally, kobolds are technically small, but if you use web enhancements, they have the Slight Build ability that lets them count as one size smaller for some purposes (and since they're humanoids, they could be permanently Reduced to Tiny, sometimes counts as Diminutive).

If you're willing to accept a LA of +1, though, you can get as small as you'd like using the Smallest Giant Ever (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109065) trick. I think it's going to be hard to beat that.

[Zombulian]

Well if pathfinder is cool then may I recommend adding this? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1) To anything?

[Thurbane]

If you're willing to use 3rd party, there's a template in Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary called Miniature. It's mainly designed so that the party can run around miniaturised fighting normal sized rats and so forth...

It's an LA -4 template, and so highly abusable to "buy off" other templates. It can be gained with a 6th level Druid or Sor/Wiz spell.

[Mystify]

If you're willing to use 3rd party, there's a template in Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary called Miniature. It's mainly designed so that the party can run around miniaturised fighting normal sized rats and so forth...

It's an LA -4 template, and so highly abusable to "buy off" other templates. It can be gained with a 6th level Druid or Sor/Wiz spell.

would that mean a minature wizard has 5 levels at level 1? And does it do anything to scale magic down?
Its things like that which make me generally reject 3rd party content. The official stuff may be just as broken at times, but at least its official. Otherwise its some random dude saying "I made this ability", which is completely unbalanced and there is no reason you should be able to do it.

[Thurbane]

would that mean a minature wizard has 5 levels at level 1? And does it do anything to scale magic down?
Its things like that which make me generally reject 3rd party content. The official stuff may be just as broken at times, but at least its official. Otherwise its some random dude saying "I made this ability", which is completely unbalanced and there is no reason you should be able to do it.
It does actually scale magic down (damage, range, AoE) relative to the characters size...but how "negative LA" actually interacts with character progression is a whole other barrel of monkeys.

Even in "official" D&D (i.e. Incarnate Construct), the exact details of how it all works are very sketchy.

[Chronos]

The problem is that size isn't, well, one size fits all. Whoever created that template probably thought "Well, increasing size is a significant help to a fighter, so decreasing size will hurt a fighter, so I need to give the decreased size template a negative LA". Except that not everyone is a fighter. A rogue loves to be smaller, and if she can get smaller while also decreasing LA, it's a win-win.

[Mystify]

The problem is that size isn't, well, one size fits all. Whoever created that template probably thought "Well, increasing size is a significant help to a fighter, so decreasing size will hurt a fighter, so I need to give the decreased size template a negative LA". Except that not everyone is a fighter. A rogue loves to be smaller, and if she can get smaller while also decreasing LA, it's a win-win.

Yes, that is true. A small rouge or mage works great, since they get a lot of things that are size independant, and bonuses from being small. Esp. if you slap a fly spell on the mini rouge, so they can move at a normal speed.
And hence this line of inquiry.

[Zaq]

The problem is that size isn't, well, one size fits all. Whoever created that template probably thought "Well, increasing size is a significant help to a fighter, so decreasing size will hurt a fighter, so I need to give the decreased size template a negative LA". Except that not everyone is a fighter. A rogue loves to be smaller, and if she can get smaller while also decreasing LA, it's a win-win.

It has been said (though for the life of me, I cannot remember who said this first) that one of the big problems with Savage Species (which I believe explicitly lists being Small as a mitigating factor where LA is concerned) is that the authors apparently not only thought that Fighter was a perfectly good class, but apparently that they thought that Fighter was the only class.

[Mystify]

It has been said (though for the life of me, I cannot remember who said this first) that one of the big problems with Savage Species (which I believe explicitly lists being Small as a mitigating factor where LA is concerned) is that the authors apparently not only thought that Fighter was a perfectly good class, but apparently that they thought that Fighter was the only class.

That would explain all the creatures with huge wisdom bonuses.

[Thurbane]

Without going in to all the specifics, the Miniature template does cause some significant drawbacks in addition to what I've already mentioned: reduced HP, lower Str (& CON) scores, reduced DR and Fast Healing. Still, nothing that would mitigate -4 LA, especially if you use a class which plays to the strengths of being Fine.

It's a nice concept, but the mechanics are just far too easily abused.

[Coidzor]

It has been said (though for the life of me, I cannot remember who said this first) that one of the big problems with Savage Species (which I believe explicitly lists being Small as a mitigating factor where LA is concerned) is that the authors apparently not only thought that Fighter was a perfectly good class, but apparently that they thought that Fighter was the only class.

...The very thought makes me weep. :smalleek:

[Darrin]

Jermlaine and Muckdweller are both tiny, playable LA +0 races, but neither qualify for Reduce Person. If there's a psionic equivalent, that should work.

The smallest you can get as a PC would be Hengeyokai (Oriental Adventures) in Sparrow form. Fine-sized, and a nekkid AC of 24: +6 Dex bonus, +8 Size bonus (they get the same +14 bonus on ranged attacks... Hello Mr. Warlock!). While they are listed as LA +1 in Oriental Adventures, the official 3.5 update (Dragon #318) removed this LA and changed their type to humanoid with the shapeshifter subtype. They also have a "hybrid" form with a 20' (average) fly speed, the only LA +0 race that starts with a more-or-less permanent fly speed.

And if you want to see the rules divide by cucumber: add some Psychic Warrior levels for compression, shift into Sparrow form, then activate an augmented compression.

[Elboxo]

If you're willing to use 3rd party, there's a template in Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary called Miniature. It's mainly designed so that the party can run around miniaturised fighting normal sized rats and so forth...

It's an LA -4 template, and so highly abusable to "buy off" other templates. It can be gained with a 6th level Druid or Sor/Wiz spell.

Is there an online source you could link? I'd greatly appreciate seeing this.

[Psyren]

A Tibbit Psychic Rogue becomes Tiny in Cat Form, which can then get to Fine with the Compression power. You can still manifest as a cat, including picking locks via Microkinesis, attacking with sneak attack rays etc.

[Ellrin]

A Tibbit Psychic Rogue becomes Tiny in Cat Form, which can then get to Fine with the Compression power. You can still manifest as a cat, including picking locks via Microkinesis, attacking with sneak attack rays etc.

Actually, that raises a question for me. Not just with Tibbits, but do races that can shapeshift into smaller forms as a racial ability who get shrunk get their alternate forms shrunk, too? For instance, a sparrow hengeyokai, as mentioned before, under a reduce person, or a Tibbit under compression. If it were a spell or some other effect, sure, I'd say it wouldn't work, but if the alternate form is something essentially fixed biologically to the creature in question...

[Psyren]

Well, Hengeyokai and Tibbits are IIRC monstrous humanoids, so Reduce Person won't work on either of them. Compression should work fine however.

I'm not sure if manifesting the power, then shapeshifting will get you to Fine or reset you to Tiny, but becoming Tiny first and then Compressing will work.

[Ellrin]

Tibbits are Monstrous Humanoids, and while Hengeyokai were originally of the "Shapechanger" type, as Darrin mentioned, the 3.5 update in Dragon 318 changed that defunct type to Humanoid (Shapechanger), so reduce person would work on one.

[Psyren]

Tibbits are Monstrous Humanoids, and while Hengeyokai were originally of the "Shapechanger" type, as Darrin mentioned, the 3.5 update in Dragon 318 changed that defunct type to Humanoid (Shapechanger), so reduce person would work.

Did it? I thought they would have been made Monstrous Humanoids since the intent seemed to be for humanoid-only spells not to affect them.


Hengeyokai are shapechangers, not humanoids. As such, they are immune to spells that specifically target humanoids (including charm person and hold person), but are susceptible to any spells that target shapechangers.

But fair enough if that is the case.

Regardless, Reduce Person would only get them down to Diminutive anyway I think.

[Ravens_cry]

I'm not sure if manifesting the power, then shapeshifting will get you to Fine or reset you to Tiny, but becoming Tiny first and then Compressing will work.
They both amount to the same thing, so I don't see it as something to be fussy about.

[Ellrin]

Did it? I thought they would have been made Monstrous Humanoids since the intent seemed to be for humanoid-only spells not to affect them.

I pulled it up just to make sure, and that's what it said, at least. I agree that, flavor-wise, monstrous humanoid might make more sense, but I suppose they are supposed to look entirely human when not in hybrid/animal form.

[Ellrin]

They both amount to the same thing, so I don't see it as something to be fussy about.

Yeah, my main point of curiosity is if you're either in a non-psionic campaign or you've got a hengeyokai with a permanent reduce person—or some similar situation.

[Igneel]

The smallest you can get as a PC would be Hengeyokai (Oriental Adventures) in Sparrow form. Fine-sized, and a nekkid AC of 24: +6 Dex bonus, +8 Size bonus (they get the same +14 bonus on ranged attacks... Hello Mr. Warlock!). While they are listed as LA +1 in Oriental Adventures, the official 3.5 update (Dragon #318) removed this LA and changed their type to humanoid with the shapeshifter substype. They also have a "hybrid" form with a 20' (average) fly speed, the only LA +0 race that starts with a more-or-less permanent fly speed.

I have to agree with this, just because its so much fun playing a Hengeyokai (sparrow) warlock. Unfortunately with the Somatic component for using invocations, which include the Eldritch blast by many DMs this means you have to take the Surrogate Spellcasting feat [Savage Species] just to be able to throw your blasts while in animal form.

Lately I have gotten into throwing in VoP [albeit typically a homebrew version] and staying in animal form just to see what kind of AC I can get in comparison to my Medium-sized friends. Imagine this with Blade Bravado's Size Advantage [+2 Dodge per size category enemy is larger then you] for a +8 against Medium-sized creatures, and double that for Colossal.



But fair enough if that is the case.

Regardless, Reduce Person would only get them down to Diminutive anyway I think.
From my reading, Reduce Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reducePerson.htm) is only limited by the fact it only reduces by one size. It doesn't exactly say "To a minimum size of Diminutive". Same with Compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm), but up to 2 size categories.

[Psyren]

From my reading, Reduce Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reducePerson.htm) is only limited by the fact it only reduces by one size. It doesn't exactly say "To a minimum size of Diminutive". Same with Compression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm), but up to 2 size categories.

Do Sparrow Hengeyokai go down to Diminutive, or Tiny? I don't have my dragon mags handy.

[Ellrin]

Hengeyokai have three forms--humanoid, hybrid, and animal. They're medium in both humanoid and hybrid forms, but they're physically indistinguishable from an average member of the species they're supposed to represent, so they'd be normal size for that animal; and according to Oriental Adventures, a sparrow is Fine.

[Psyren]

Ah, so it is. In that case, the Hengeyokai would be the easiest way to reach Fine (i.e. independent of class or items.)

But I still like my compressing cat-burglar Tibbits :smallsmile:

[Ellrin]

Ah, so it is. In that case, the Hengeyokai would be the easiest way to reach Fine (i.e. independent of class or items.)

But I still like my compressing cat-burglar Tibbits :smallsmile:

Well, that's because Tibbits are awesome.

[Ravens_cry]

They are, they are indeed, but one thing no one is able to tell me is whether they qualify for Feline feats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c)!

[Ellrin]

If I ever make a Tibbit character, I'm definitely going to try to sneak some of those past the DM.

[Psyren]

They are, they are indeed, but one thing no one is whether they qualify for Feline feats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c)!

Yep, they do:


Feline: Feats of the feline type are available only to cats and other feline creatures, including Cheshire cats (see below), lions, rakshasas, tigers, tressym (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting), and other feline creatures.


Feline Transformation: At will, as a standard action, a tibbit can transform into a house cat.

"I Meant To Do That" will go perfectly with my rogue :smallwink:

[Randomguy]

You can get a permanent reduce person for nonhumanoids using a ring of reduction, from lords of madness, assuming your DM works in a magic-mart style world. You'll need to steel it from the tsochar otherwise.

Kobolds can get a sleight build feature, making them count as tiny. It's online somewhere.

[Chronos]

And if you want to see the rules divide by cucumber: add some Psychic Warrior levels for compression, shift into Sparrow form, then activate an augmented compression.I think that there are rules somewhere for size categories beyond Colossal and Fine: Colossal+ is twice the size of Colossal, Colossal++ is twice the size of Colossal+, and so on. I presume that, by analogy, there's also Fine-, Fine--, and so on. So a sparrow with augmented Compression would be Fine--.

Assuming that these size categories exist at your table, they're also accessible via the Smallest Giant Ever trick.

And if I were DMing, I would totally allow those feline feats, with no "sneaking past" needed. And besides, nowhere does it say that web content published on April 1 isn't really official.

[Coidzor]

They did claim that the optional supplementary potion miscibility rules they made were something that could actually be used by the people who missed 2nd Edition's take on such things, after all.

[Ravens_cry]

Yep, they do:

Huzz-freaking-ah!:smallbiggrin:
That makes me so very, very happy.

[Igneel]

Kobolds can get a sleight build feature, making them count as tiny. It's online somewhere.

You mean this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) here?

[Metahuman1]

All of this, too me, actually begs another question.

Is there a way to do the opposite? To play a Colossal or larger character? Preferably one with a mostly human appearance?

[Mystify]

All of this, too me, actually begs another question.

Is there a way to do the opposite? To play a Colossal or larger character? Preferably one with a mostly human appearance?

be a large creature with a huge lycanthrope form. Use expansion to grow 2 size categories to colossal.

[Thurbane]

The alternative Half-fiend template, Half-Goristro, makes a character huge.

[Rubik]

Obligatory link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132294) Use Human Heritage to qualify.

Not as small as a sparrow hengeyokai from the get-go, but being the size of a toad while wrasslin' dragons at higher levels is just awesome.

[Aerlock]

The only contribution I have to this conversation is the Ring of Reduction from Lords of Madness (pg 130). It's a Reduce Person ring that works on any intelligent creature while worn. Very handy for the small/tiny/etc. races out there that don't qualify for Reduce Person. It's also pretty cheap (20k) so when working with higher level builds its easy to afford.

- Aerlock

[Metahuman1]

The alternative Half-fiend template, Half-Goristro, makes a character huge.

What book is Half-Goristro found in?

[Thurbane]

What book is Half-Goristro found in?
It's from the web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) for the Monster Manual.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, that's neat. Now, did we ever hammer out a way to get all day Expansion and Compression? Or a way to get the PP cost of them down to something, ok I'll just put it bluntly, trivial?

In case anyone is wondering, I have a friend who pitched that to me as a curiosity, and I told her I'd get back to her on it.

[Rubik]

Ok, that's neat. Now, did we ever hammer out a way to get all day Expansion and Compression? Or a way to get the PP cost of them down to something, ok I'll just put it bluntly, trivial?

In case anyone is wondering, I have a friend who pitched that to me as a curiosity, and I told her I'd get back to her on it.Hyperconscious has Persistent Power, a metapsionic feat that lets you persist for 24 hours for quite a few power points, and instead of expending your focus it requires you to hold your focus, and if you ever lose it the power ends. No DMM means it's fairly well-balanced.