Brand New To 4e, Need DM'ing Help

[Dralnu]

I'm going to be DM'ing a 4e session on February 8th. From what I understand, almost all the players will be new to the system. They have PHBs and no other books. As for me, I have extensive knowledge of 3.5 but know almost nothing about 4e. No 4e books at all.

So my question to you guys is: what should I get in order to run a good introductory campaign?

[Giggling Ghast]

The Quickstart Rules (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/TryDnD.aspx) might help.

[Emongnome777]

The PHB1 would be good. If you need an adventure, WotC's site has Keep on the Shadowfell for free. This should be everything you need, but it'll take time to "forget" some 3.5 stuff and learn 4.0. For instance, provoking an opportunity attack can ONLY happen if you move out of a threatened square or use a ranged / area power while threatened. No more provoking when standing. Also resist the urge to houserule 3.5 stuff back into 4E. Play it as-is for a while first.

[Gillric]

If you are willing to run a pre-made, there are a few good low level modules out there. You could also get your hands on a season of encounters which runs from level 1 to 3.

As for the modules:
Keep on the Shadowfell isnt attrocious and is level 1 to 3
There is a good level 1 module but I can't think of the name right now.

[Sipex]

Yeah, download Keep on The Shadowfell (free legally) if you want to do it with as little monetary investment as possible.

If you want to do your own campaign I suggest getting the core books at the very least (PHB1, DMG and Monster Manual 1).

Either way, you'll also need some sort of battle map or tile set to run battles on and tokens for your players and monsters and...of course...dice. Board game pieces make good tokens if you don't want to spend any money, if you want to put some down there's actually a $12 monster token set you should be able to pick up from your local game store.

OR, instead of getting the Monster Manual 1, you could get the Monster Vault which comes with both monsters and tokens to cover all the monsters presented in the book.

Or you can go straight up and buy minis.

[Mindartis]

One thing I can tell you, stay away from Essentials. Unless you are planning on simply staying with the Essentials line, never branching out to any of the other classes that they have, I would stay away from Essentials. Other than that, everything has already been said. You will need to forget alot that you learned in 3.5, because it made the game more beginner friendly.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Additionally, you can pool together $10 and buy a one-month subscription to DDI (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Subscription.aspx) for the group to share. It gives you access to all the books, the Character Builder (which incorporates all Errata) and the Monster Vault (all Monsters and limited Custom Monster building).

DDI provides good functionality and $10 is a good price to try out an entire product line IMHO.

[Snowbody]

Another good free intro module to teach people the basics is "Tanza's Fall", available from:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-discussion/235736-sample-1st-level-adventure-tanzas-fall.html (registration required but it's free)

or not-completely-authorized on Scribd:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/45200941/Tanzas-Fall

It comes with a bunch of pregen characters (four gang members, four town guards) and you try to have a balance between them.

[Gillric]

I remembered the name of that other module I had mentioned. It is shorter than keep on the shadowfell as it is only 1 level but it is well put together.

The Slaying Stone

As far as Essentials goes, the rules of the game don't change. These are just slimmed down classes and some new options for your players primarily.

[INDYSTAR188]

This isn't strictly necessary but I would suggest that you mention to your players to try to fill the party roles evenly (Defender, Striker, Leader, Controller). You can play w/out all of them or with just one type but things seem to run smoother for the players when they have all the bases covered.

[Bearpunch]

One thing I can tell you, stay away from Essentials. Unless you are planning on simply staying with the Essentials line, never branching out to any of the other classes that they have, I would stay away from Essentials. Other than that, everything has already been said. You will need to forget alot that you learned in 3.5, because it made the game more beginner friendly.

I disagree, as the Monster vault is a great book. The Heroes line, however, is not good. Only the Mage and Slayer are worth it. The Hexblade is cool, though at least.

[Gillric]

The knight, also from heroes is really good.

[Sipex]

Essentials isn't really all that important to the DM except for the fact that he has to know the features and classes his players are using just to stay on top of things (or if you start using item rarity rules). Other than that, the rules are the same and the monsters are the same (built using the same system) so there's not a huge change from a DM perspective.

[Dralnu]

The quickstart rules are awesome. I've printed out copies of that for myself and the players.

I read through Keep on the Shadowfell. It looks alright, pretty standard, which is good. I'll read through The Slaying Stone and Tanza's Fall later today.

Oh my god.. $10 for a DDI subscription and I get everything? Why wouldn't I do this? It sounds awesome! When my subscription runs out, do I still keep everything that I had access to? Heck, even if I don't, still worth it! I think I'll do this.

I'll stay away from Essentials for now just because it's more stuff to read and the players know nothing of it. Baby steps.

The group already created their characters: Half-Elf Paladin, Eladrin Wizard, Elf Wizard, Eladrin Cleric, Half-Elf Ranger, and Human Fighter. One wizard is going more control while the other is going more blasty. Group of 6. It should be pretty balanced right?

Lots of great advice in this thread. Thanks guys :smallsmile:

[Kurald Galain]

As far as Essentials goes, the rules of the game don't change.

...not exactly.

If we don't count errata to individual powers, feats, or items, the rules are fundamentally different between the PHB and the RulCom, for the following things:

Keywords and damage types
Weapon-as-implement and vice versa
Conjurations
Zones
Skills interacting with movement
Stealth
Perception
Free action usage
Untyped bonuses
Dominate and petrified
Vertical movement
Aid another
Charge
Concealment and fog effects
Fly, hover, and crashing
Mounts
Skill challenges
Default effects for unusual actions
Monster creation


Although technically the PHB has been errata'ed to change most of this, of course. The point is, if you learn the game from the PHB1/DMG1 then you're going to end up with significantly different rules than if you learn it from the 4.4 line, so I would not recommend starting with both at the same time.

[Sol]

The quickstart rules are awesome. I've printed out copies of that for myself and the players.

I read through Keep on the Shadowfell. It looks alright, pretty standard, which is good. I'll read through The Slaying Stone and Tanza's Fall later today.

Oh my god.. $10 for a DDI subscription and I get everything? Why wouldn't I do this? It sounds awesome! When my subscription runs out, do I still keep everything that I had access to? Heck, even if I don't, still worth it! I think I'll do this.

I'll stay away from Essentials for now just because it's more stuff to read and the players know nothing of it. Baby steps.

The group already created their characters: Half-Elf Paladin, Eladrin Wizard, Elf Wizard, Eladrin Cleric, Half-Elf Ranger, and Human Fighter. One wizard is going more control while the other is going more blasty. Group of 6. It should be pretty balanced right?

Lots of great advice in this thread. Thanks guys :smallsmile:

That party sounds fine.

Yeah, DDI is definitely worthwhile when you're new. It gives you access to the online character builder, which is, even if you owned all the books, by far the easiest, most streamlined way to look at all of the power and feat options you qualify for; and to the Compendium, which lets you look up any feat, power, class, race, item, monster, trap, background, theme, status effect, etc and read about it. It's a fantastic reference tool, and even works on mobile devices, so it's fast and easy to look something up mid-game if someone has a question you don't know the answer to.

I've never used the adventure tools, but it's designed for DMs to help you build monsters and even encounters level-appropriate for your party.

[Mando Knight]

Oh my god.. $10 for a DDI subscription and I get everything? Why wouldn't I do this? It sounds awesome! When my subscription runs out, do I still keep everything that I had access to? Heck, even if I don't, still worth it! I think I'll do this.

You don't get to keep access to the online features, but they can't take away any of the DDI-only PDFs you downloaded from them. Which includes back issues of Dungeon and Dragon magazines. Which by themselves makes it worth it.

[Dralnu]

I bought the DDI. I've gotten a confirmation email and it seems I'll be "delivered" things, which is odd because I thought this would be a fully online database. My account shows that I purchased DDI yet I don't have access to DDI stuff at the moment, such as the character builder. I'm a little confused.

I'm halfway through the quickstart rules. Quite a bit has changed, but I like what I've read so far. I'm excited for this session! :smallbiggrin:

[Oracle_Hunter]

I bought the DDI. I've gotten a confirmation email and it seems I'll be "delivered" things, which is odd because I thought this would be a fully online database. My account shows that I purchased DDI yet I don't have access to DDI stuff at the moment, such as the character builder. I'm a little confused.
If you have a User Name and a Password, you should have access through WotC's website. Just sign in and go.

[Palegreenpants]

DMing a new group can be painful or awesome.
The teaching of D&D could get a whole essay on itself! But my advice is to keep things easy and fast-moving.

If you like a tutorial of sorts, by all means do one!
Do a simple combat encounter with the players. Maybe folowed by a simple social encounter.

These things, just as a warmup, can be a great way to start the process of teaching the rules.

Good luck to you!:smallwink:

[Dralnu]

I'll be jumping straight into a campaign I think. I dunno. I've DM'd a lot of 3.5, but I was very familiar with the system and did very well at homebrew. I always forget/mess up with modules. The game starts in 3 hours, plus 1 hour commute, and all I've done so far was read over the quickstart rules and glazed the PHB and DMG. Reading the modules now.

Question: Does 4e have an equivalent to the rod of wonder (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Rod_of_Wonder)? I want to give it to them early and see what comes of it.

[Mando Knight]

Technically, by RAW? Not that a quick Compendium search brought up.

A 10th level Rod (+2 enchantment bonus, +2d6 crit damage) with the ability to provide similar random effects via its power (Encounter? Daily? At-Will? Your choice, really) would be reasonable, IMO. Could be a Staff instead if that fits better with the party (since Rods are used by fewer classes, though implement proficiency is easy to come by nowadays).

If the effect requires a save, make it an implement attack against that defense using the wielder's best stat (or best of Int, Wis, or Cha, if you prefer). If it needs a touch attack, that's been rolled into Reflex Defense, and thus is again an implement + Best Stat vs Reflex. If the effect applies a penalty to a creature for more than one or two rounds, then it's (save ends) instead. If the effect is permanent, let it be permanent. If it's a bonus that lasts more than a turn or two, make it until the end of the encounter. Summoned creatures use the summoner's defenses (not counting temporary bonuses) and have HP equal to the summoner's healing surge. They use the summoner's actions to do anything, and their attacks should use the summoner's stats (with a +2 bonus if attacking AC). Follow the guidelines for what the damage should be.

[Dralnu]

Thanks Mando! I'll do exactly that for the rod. Not sure if it'll be a rod or staff yet -- currently it's being cherished by one of the wizards. He hasn't used it yet. When you say that summoned monsters use the summoner's actions to do anything, do they get their own set of standard/move/minor/free actions and act on the summoner's turn, or would they use those actions instead of the summoner?

I'll re-do the rod's chart for 4e. Basically I just need to change the 3.5 specific spells into 4e equivalents. I'm making it into an artifact that belongs to some powerful being that embodies chaos. Kind of like the Wabbajack from Elder Scrolls.

Had my session yesterday and it went well. We ran Keep on the Shadowfell. We were all underprepared and spent some time rechecking character sheets and figuring out rules. The first fight was really long because we had to check things like AoO rules and what burst vs. blast is, etc. Slow but steady progress. They got to the first town and I was scrambling to figure out that part of the module so I didn't do a good job explaining its details, so they promptly left the city to go kill some kobolds. We stopped there.

Very good first impression of the system though. I really like the powers and love how they streamlined big things like skills and little touchups like how saving throws work. Excited for next week's game :)

[Palegreenpants]

It's good that your first session went well!

Sounded a lot like my first DMing session.
I've got one lil' bit of advice though. Watch yourself for adding too many things like the Rod Of Wonder.
These items may seem REALLY great, but they can seriously mess things up. I gave my party a Ring Of Wishes, and boy was that chaos.

'Dunno if that was any help. But I sure had to learn that lesson the hard way.
:smallsigh:

[Snowbody]

They got to the first town and I was scrambling to figure out that part of the module so I didn't do a good job explaining its details, so they promptly left the city to go kill some kobolds. We stopped there.

Very good first impression of the system though. I really like the powers and love how they streamlined big things like skills and little touchups like how saving throws work. Excited for next week's game :)

Thanks for posting your report! Was wondering how it went. Looks like you're learning on the fly. Make sure to evaluate the session -- what went well, what would you have done differently, what your players really seized on.

You don't have to give all the details at once. Let the PCs explore and find things out on their own.

Preparation is key, but you have to expect that your players will do something you won't anticipate.

I'd love to hear continued reports of how you're doing!

[Mando Knight]

When you say that summoned monsters use the summoner's actions to do anything, do they get their own set of standard/move/minor/free actions and act on the summoner's turn, or would they use those actions instead of the summoner?
Summoned creatures use up the summoner's allotment of actions, so in order for them to attack, the summoner needs to spend a Standard Action (usually) to tell them to do so. If you have a DDI subscription, all the relevant rules are on there and you can use the existing summoning powers as guidelines.

[Dralnu]

I read the summon monster rules. Wow. They fixed exactly what I hated about summoned monsters in 3e. Words cannot describe how happy that makes me.

The rod of wonder is a homage to the first campaign I ever participated in. Our DM dropped it on us and much hilarity ensued. Elephants being summoned inside the goblin chief's tent in the middle of a hostage situation, for example. I don't plan on dropping other things like that any time soon.

I've thoroughly went over the module now. It only took about 30minutes, which sucks because I could've easily done that before the first session. I should've used their adventure hooks -- all of them, actually. But it's salvageable. When they're done with the kobold cave I'll do justice to Winterhaven's many hooks and quirks.

I'll keep you guys posted on the progress if you're interested. It's a slow but fun process.

[Hyde]

I'm going to fully endorse the idea of the DDI subscription. It's pretty cheap, and makes creating characters painless (you might have to explain that certain feats are specific to certain campaign settings, like the dragonmark feats).

It's pretty easy on the DM, but not so much if you love doing custom things. Custom monsters are easy enough, you can just pick and choose from abilities that exist, they're pretty consistent among themselves
Items, though... There are a lot to choose from, but coming up with your own is not as interesting, in my opinion. (There aren't benchmarks for things like the old wand of wonder, or the Deck of many things. things that are ridiculous by their very nature. Well, the last time I checked, the latter existed, but it was pretty boring).

It's not too much of an issue, but as a DM who pulls his entire campaign out of his own wizard hat, it felt constrictive.

Players still had fun, though, so there's that.

[Dralnu]

Currently running the second session (we're doing it weekly). I basically imported rod of wonder as-is and it's worked fine so far. They summoned a wild elephant and casted a Fireball (wizard5). With my DDI subscription, I just type in the thing in the compendium and voila! Easy. Money well spent!

[Snowbody]

In terms of plot, don't feel obligated to stick to the module as-is . If you think something is stupid, or that your PCs won't go for it, you have every right to change it (just leave yourself a note).

[Dralnu]

Last session went really well. The party is now level 3. The rules are becoming more and more familiar which means we focus less on page-flipping and more on having fun. We're still learning more each session though, for example none of us knew that you add half you level to attack rolls until recently. One problem though is that as the DM, I know very little about the character building process. Too much has changed from 3.5 to give input anymore. So I can't help them at all when it comes to building a character and levelling up.

I've come across two problems so far:
1) The module often makes me throw around 10 monsters at a time against the party. The amount of rolling I need to do each turn slows things down a ton. Pre-rolling isn't really an option because I'm involved with each player's turn, have to tell them if it hits and if they can do this or that, so I don't have any time to do my own stuff. Is there any way to speed things up?

2) I find most non-minion monsters have far too much health with too little firepower. This makes them harmless punching bags, pretty boring. There's been one exception with a boss I ran last session (Irontooth) who could dish out a beating, but otherwise the party isn't in real danger and they're just waiting until the monster drops so they can move on. Should I change around some numbers to make combat faster and more dangerous?

3) The number of players is increasing from 6 to 7 next week. Will this be a problem?

[Kurald Galain]

3) The number of players is increasing from 6 to 7 next week. Will this be a problem?

Yes. If the game is slow, then obviously adding another player makes it even slower. I find 4E plays best with four players.

[Snowbody]

One problem though is that as the DM, I know very little about the character building process. Too much has changed from 3.5 to give input anymore. So I can't help them at all when it comes to building a character and levelling up.

With a D&DI subscription, use the Online Character Builder -- it takes care of most of this for you.


I've come across two problems so far:
1) The module often makes me throw around 10 monsters at a time against the party. The amount of rolling I need to do each turn slows things down a ton. Pre-rolling isn't really an option because I'm involved with each player's turn, have to tell them if it hits and if they can do this or that, so I don't have any time to do my own stuff. Is there any way to speed things up?
Have one of the off-turn players pre-roll for the mobs?
Tell the PCs the mobs' defenses so they know if it hits? (Yes, this allows some metagaming, but it's unlikely to affect things much)


2) I find most non-minion monsters have far too much health with too little firepower.
You and almost everybody. Monsters from the newest monster books (Monster Manual 3 and Monster Vault) mostly fix this. A quick fix is to drop their HP by 33% and increase their average damage by 33% (or 50% if you're feeling nasty).


3) The number of players is increasing from 6 to 7 next week. Will this be a problem?
Depends on how you adjust. Keep on the Shadowfell is designed for 5.

[Dralnu]

With a D&DI subscription, use the Online Character Builder -- it takes care of most of this for you.

Yeah, I guess so.



Have one of the off-turn players pre-roll for the mobs?
Tell the PCs the mobs' defenses so they know if it hits? (Yes, this allows some metagaming, but it's unlikely to affect things much)

I'm going to try the latter definitely (they figure it out anyway), maybe the former too. Thanks for the suggestion.



You and almost everybody. Monsters from the newest monster books (Monster Manual 3 and Monster Vault) mostly fix this. A quick fix is to drop their HP by 33% and increase their average damage by 33% (or 50% if you're feeling nasty).

I'll try to not modify the current monsters, but I'll look in MM3 and MV for monsters appropriate to the setting to add maybe.

Hmm, well, the group has already agreed to add the 7th. Hopefully it works out.

[Snowbody]

Seriously -- if you have 6 or more players, most of whom are inexperienced in 4E, it will help a lot if you delegate. Some more ideas:

Assign a player to keep track of all "until the end of ___'s turn" status effects, and remind people about it if it's relevant.
Assign a player to keep track of all "save ends" effects and remind people. that it's in effect (and to remind them to roll their saves)
If you're overwhelmed by running so many monsters, give a monster's whole statblock and power description to a PC who acts far away in initiative order and let him run the mob completely independently of you. Of course this only works if the PC is mature about it.

This page has some more suggestions:
http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/7405/what-gm-tasks-can-be-delegated-to-players-to-speed-up-encounters

[Kievan King]

I've come across two problems so far:
1) The module often makes me throw around 10 monsters at a time against the party. The amount of rolling I need to do each turn slows things down a ton. Pre-rolling isn't really an option because I'm involved with each player's turn, have to tell them if it hits and if they can do this or that, so I don't have any time to do my own stuff. Is there any way to speed things up?

2) I find most non-minion monsters have far too much health with too little firepower. This makes them harmless punching bags, pretty boring. There's been one exception with a boss I ran last session (Irontooth) who could dish out a beating, but otherwise the party isn't in real danger and they're just waiting until the monster drops so they can move on. Should I change around some numbers to make combat faster and more dangerous?

I started playing D&D 1.5 years ago DMing for four of my friends, none of us had played D&D before, and we started with 4E. I found the essentials Monster Vault (and MM3) to be a better picture of how your monsters should look like, since they do more damage and have more hit points, and are generally have more interesting mechanics. When I started tweaking monsters toward Monster Vault stats, combat really started to pick up.

Also, with regards to #2, I don't know if this would work for your DMing style, but I try to pre-roll all the monsters' initiative before the session starts whenever I can, and it saves me a ton of time.

Also, on an unrelated note, I highly recommend reading DMG2 cover to cover, because it has a lot of great tips on how to create dynamic and interesting encounters plus a lot of cool stuff that I have found invaluable.

Hope this helps, it sounds like you guys are having a good time, so you must be doing something right.