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grarrrg
2012-02-02, 12:56 PM
This is a Thought Experiment (that and I am fairly bored right now....)

Evasion is fun.
"Made my Ref Save! No damage!"

Wouldn't Evasion be more fun if it worked for Fort and/or Will?

Only 2 classes get what we're looking for:
Gunslinger (Gun Tank) gets the Fort version at level 15 (ouch!)

Inquisitors get Fort AND Will at level 11.

Now how do we abuse/maximize this?

First, we need 11 levels of Inquisitor.
Granted, that is a lot of levels to commit so early in our build, but its a LOT better than it seems at first.
Inquisitors have goof Fort and Will saves to begin with.
As a Judgement ability, Inquisitors can gain a Sacred bonus to saves equal to 1 +-1 for every 5 Inquisitor levels. We're up to a +3 Sacred bonus.
AND Inquisitors can treat allies as if they had the Inquisitors Teamwork feats. The "Shake it Off" Teamwork feat gives you a +1 per adjacent ally (max of +4)
AND AND they also get to choose a Domain. In this case we want the Protection Domain, as it provides a Resistance bonus of 1 + 1-for every 5 Inquisitor levels. Again, we're up to a +3 bonus.

*NOTE: I am using Fractional saves. Characters only get the "1st level +2" once per save. Otherwise this would quickly devolve to a 1-level-Dipping fest*

We've only done one class, and we're already up to Fort/Will +13.5 (+17 w/4 allies) and Ref +9.67 (+13 w/4 allies).

We now need Evasion, and better Ref. Our two choices are Monk, or Rogue. Both get Evasion at level 2, we'll go with Monk because ALL the saving throws are good. 2 levels of Monk gives us our +2 Ref bonus, and +1 all otherwise.

Total Saves using Fractions (leaving out the Shake if Off bonus):
Fort/Will: 14.5, Ref: 12.67

Next up, and you knew this was coming, Paladin > Divine Grace.
2 levels to get Cha to all our saves. Paladin also has good Fort/Will saves.

Totals Inquisitor 11/Monk 2/Paladin 2 (we'll assume a Cha of 16):
Fort/Will: 18.5, Ref: 16.33

There are 5 levels left to work with, 4 more levels of Inquisitor will give another +1 from Judgement, and +1 from Protection Domain. The final 1 level doesn't much matter, so we'll just say 5 more levels of Inquisitor.

Final Class totals for Inquisitor 16/Monk 2/Paladin 2:
Fort/Will: +23, Ref: +20

For race we can either take Halfling for +1 Racial all saves, or Half-Orc taking the Sacred Tattoo option for a +1 Luck all saves.

Halfling is better, as Racial bonuses are hard to come by, and it gets +2 to TWO relevant stats (Dex/Cha), while the Half-Orc only gets a single +2 (which would go into Cha of course).
So Halfling gives Fort/Will: +2, Ref: +3, while the Half-Orc would only get +2 All saves.

While they are normally poor options, the 3 Save Boosting feats are must haves, +2 All saves.

After Class/Race/Feats we have (remember, we assumed a Cha of 16):
Fort/Will: +27, Ref: +25

Most spells only provide Resistance bonuses, the only notable exception is Heroism (3rd level Inquisitor spell), which provides a +2 Morale Bonus for 10min./level

Final values ultimately depend on exact stats. Halfling has a -2 to Str, so Ranged attacks look like the best option (and higher Dex will shore up our "weak" save), or grab Weapon Finesse, you won't do much damage, but you'll hit things.
Dex/Con/Wis will be our "business" stats. Cha, while boosting all of our saves, provides few other benefits.
Int is our Dump Stat, thankfully, Inquisitors have 6 skills/level, so we'll be fine.

Did I miss anything?

Eshi
2012-02-02, 02:11 PM
You could dip into oracle for one level for the lore revelation Sidestep Secret. It adds your Cha to reflex and ac instead of Dex, so now you can dump it for Str instead. in this case the half orc option would be best.

also, the spellbreaker archetype would probably work well for annoying spellcasters harder

CTrees
2012-02-02, 02:51 PM
If you have access to templates? Young+Advanced alone gets you to be one size category smaller, +8Dex/+4Int/+4Wis/+4Cha, for the low, low price of LA+0. Very, very appealing for this build, especially if you're relying on ranged damage. With your other assumptions, that's F+29/R+31/W+31.

If you don't (I don't allow templates for PCs, because it gets really silly, very fast - a triple young, triple advanced wizard? Sure!), monsters as PCs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs) section may have something appealing. Drow might not be quite as impressive as your Halfling, but SR is slightly annoying, and Merfolk are impressive if you can obviate the movement issues. Also, from Psionics Unleashed, there's the psionic Duergar with bonuses to saves against all spells, the elan which can spend one power point for a +4 racial bonus on all saves as an immediate action, and the Xeph (the medium sized, psionic halfling).

grarrrg
2012-02-02, 04:03 PM
You could dip into oracle for one level for the lore revelation Sidestep Secret. It adds your Cha to reflex and ac instead of Dex, so now you can dump it for Str instead. in this case the half orc option would be best.

also, the spellbreaker archetype would probably work well for annoying spellcasters harder

Spellbreaker is in, the only thing we really lose is Solo Tactics. If we want we can always take Shake it Off anyway and just convince our friends to do it too.

Defense against Magic is nice too, +4/+3/+2/+1 to saves against schools of choice? Sweet.

As for race, which one doesn't much matter, but Halflings do have access to the Lucky Halfling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/lucky-halfling) feat. Spread the love Saves.

And dropping a Inquisitor to 15 to pick up Oracle 1 doesn't hurt any.


An alternate build would be Inquisitor 11/Monk 9 and snag Improved Evasion.
That build is more stat friendly (DUMP THE CHA!), but the saves would end up a lot lower.

jmelesky
2012-02-02, 04:23 PM
Speaking of Spellbreaker, there's an alternate route to this: the roll-twice-take-the-higher abilities. At a certain point, that method is superior, because you need to roll two separate '1's to auto-fail a save.

Spellbreaker has that for Will saves against mind-affecting effects (and gets it at level 1). Where else can we get it?

Blisstake
2012-02-02, 04:32 PM
Dwarf Inquisitor with a ring of evasion.

Taking all 20 levels in inquisitor is probably the best choice (they have amazing level scaling). Anyway, make the character an archer, and take dwarf for the nice bonuses (doesn't increase your dex, but that's not a huge deal) as well as the +2 bonus to saves against spell like and magic (which is pretty much when saving if required). Play archery (imo, the best option for inquisitors anyway) and get your dex up (since reflex is your only bad save). Deal crap tons of damage from a distance, and nearly auto-succeed on enemy spells against you.

The only weakness of this build is when burly enemies manage to get close to you. Your reflex save won't be quite as high as dipping into monk and paladin, but this way you don't need to take charisma (I really think it should be a dump stat for inquisitors) and your inquisitor abilities get really good fast.

Edit: Spellbreaker if you want to be more ridiculous. Teamwork feats don't help archer inquisitors as much anyway.

Hand_of_Vecna
2012-02-02, 05:35 PM
Can you use 3.5 material? Pious Templar and Witch Slayer (or is it hunter the one from binder section of ToM) both give you mettle much earlier.

Need_A_Life
2012-02-02, 05:46 PM
If 3.5 material is allowed, 3 levels of Hexblade nets you +Cha to saves vs. spells and spell-likes, plus Mettle (Evasion for Fort & Will).
Add two levels of, say, monk to that, two levels of Paladin and then whatever strikes your fancy. Dwarves gain a lot of bonuses to saves and there's Traits in Pathfinder that give you +1 to a save or +2 to certain subtypes of saves (+1 Will vs. +2 vs. mind-affecting, for example).

Also, don't neglect your Touch AC. Spellcasters whose save DCs you continually make will start using ray spells.

grarrrg
2012-02-02, 06:05 PM
Speaking of Spellbreaker, there's an alternate route to this: the roll-twice-take-the-higher abilities. At a certain point, that method is superior, because you need to roll two separate '1's to auto-fail a save.

After you take Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will you can take the Improved versions to get "roll twice take best". You can only re-roll 1/day, but with the obscenely high saves you have, that will probably be enough.



If 3.5 material is allowed, 3 levels of Hexblade nets you +Cha to saves vs. spells and spell-likes, plus Mettle (Evasion for Fort & Will)....

Also, don't neglect your Touch AC. Spellcasters whose save DCs you continually make will start using ray spells.

Yeah, 3.5 getting Mettle is a LOT easier.
Currently Inquisitor is the only class that has it.

As for Touch AC, you'll note that we have levels in Monk, and Inquisitor requires Wis.....

Blisstake
2012-02-02, 08:26 PM
Oh, and

And dropping a Inquisitor to 15 to pick up Oracle 1 doesn't hurt any.

definitely is not true. 16th level is when you get both 6th level spells as well as triple judgement.

If you're trying to do this from a simply theoretical standpoint (rather than a practical character) you want a nymph Inquisitor 11/Paladin 2/Oracle 1/Monk 2 for the best bonuses (that ends up being effectively level 20). Double charisma to all saves, as well as all the charisma bonuses.

I still stand by Dwarf Inquisitor 20 as the best way to be effective in combat in addition to having the ridiculous saves.