View Full Version : Nice things for melee (feats that are worth it) (3.5) (PEACH) WIP

2012-02-02, 01:08 PM
Form points
Your form point total is equal to the number of [Combat Form] you have.

Combat Form
Benefit:You gain balance as a class skill for all classes and may count your ability scores as two higher for the purpose of prerequisites and benefits of [Combat Form] feats. And finally you gain two form points.

Strength feats
The Grappler
Holding Blows [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 1, Str 13, Balance rank 4,*
Benefit: When you hit with a melee attack you may immediately spend a form point to start a grapple with the creature you hit. You take no AoOs from this action.*

Maneuver Grapple [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 6, Str 15, Balance rank 9, Holding Blows
Benefit: You no longer need to be in an opponents space to grapple them, you only need them within your reach. You no longer lose Dex to AC in a grapple. You may move while in a grapple but you must make an opposed grapple check to do so. If the movement leaves you to far away from a grappled enemy you will no longer be grappling them. This movement is unlimited. And finally you may use any weapon in a grapple.

Merciless Grappler [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 12, Str 17, Balance rank 15, Holding Blows, Maneuver Grapple
Benefit: Once per encounter you may make an attack action while in a grapple to attempt to snap a creatures back. Make an attack roll if you hit the enemy It must make a Fortitude save or be paralyzed DC(10+Half level+Str Mod).

The Breaker

The Juggernaut

Dexterity feats

The Skirmisher
Speed [Skirmish] [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 1, Dex 13, Balance ranks 4,*
Benefit: You gain an extra 5' of movement per point of Dex mod you have.
Special: You gain +2 vs AoO For each Mobility feat you have.

Pounce [Skirmish] [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 6, Dex 15, Balance rank 9, Speed
Benefit: You may make a full attack at the end of a charge.

Running Fighter [Skirmish] [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 12, Dex 17, Balance rank 15, Speed, Pounce
Benefit: As a Full-Round Action you may move your Speed and spend an Form Point to hit an enemy you move past. You may spend up to Dex mod points in that Full-Round Action. You may hit an enemy only once per turn using this ability.

The Vangaurd
Title One [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 1, Dex 13, Balance rank 4, Combat Form
Benefit: You do not take armor penalties to speed or skills.

Title Two [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 6, Dex 15, Balance rank 9, Combat Form, Title One
Benefit: You ignore the max Dex on armor.

Title Three [Combat Form]

The Duelist

Constitution Talents

The Knight
Armored Warrior[Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 1, Con 13
Benefit you may add you Con Mod as a bonus to your armors AC bonus. Max bonus is equal to half your level.

Shielded Warrior [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 5, Con 15, Armored Warrior
Benefit: You may add you Con Mod as a bonus to your shield AC modifier. Max bonus is equal to half your level.

Shielded Grace [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 10, Con 17, Armored Warror, Shielded Warrior
Benefit: You may add your Shield AC bonus to touch AC. And you gain a miss chance equal too the base AC bonus of your equipped shield*10

The Survivalist
Wasteland Warrior [Combat Feat]
Prerequisites: BaB 1, Con 13
Benefit: You resist fire and cold damage for an amount equal to your level plus Con Mod. In addition you no longer take penalties for extreme heat or extreme cold.

Stormlands Raider [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 5, Con 15, Wasteland Warrior
Benefit: You resist electric and sonic damage for an amount equal to your level plus your Con Mod. In addition you are no longer effected by visibility problems from storms and wind effects count as two steps lower against you.

Force of Nature [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 10, Con 17, Wasteland Warrior, Stormlands Raider
Benefit: You gain resist acid, negative and positive energy for an amount equal to your level plus your Con Mod. This only activates in cases where it would be beneficial to your health. In addition you may ignore difficult natural terrain and may breath under water for extra rounds equal to ten times your Con Mod. You also ignore height sickness.

The Enduring
Vigorous Strikes [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 1, Con 13,
Benefit: Whenever you hit with a melee attack you may spend a form point to gain temp hit points equal to your Con Mod.

Hardened Skin [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 5, Con 15, Vigorous Strikes
Benefit: You gain DR/- equal to your Con Mod. This stacks with other forms of DR/-.

Resistance Training [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 10, Con 17, Vigorous Strikes, Hardened Skin
Benefit: Con Mod times per encounter you may reduce any damage you take by your character level as a free action.

Intelligence Talents
The Tactician

The Cunning
Off-Balancing Strike [Cunning] [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 1, Int 15, Balance rank 4, Combat Form
Benefit: Wheneveryou hit a flat footed you may spend two Form Points to leave him flat-footed for one round.

The Trapsmith

Combat Trapper [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 1, Int 13, Balance rank 4, Combat Form
Sly Hands [Comat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 6, Int 15, Balance rank 9, Combat Form, Combat Trapper
Mechanical Genius [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 12, Int 17, Balance rank 15, Combat Form, Combat Trapper, Sly Hands

Wisdom Talents
The Martial Artist

Press the Attack
Prerequisites: BaB 1, Wis 13,
Benefit: Whenever you hit with a melee weapon you may spend a form point to make an unarmed attack. This attack does not provoke AoOs. The attack may be made with any part of your body.

Nerve Strike
Prerequisites: BaB 5, Wis 15, Press the Attack
Benefit: Wis Mod times per encounter when you hit with an attack from Press the Attack you may force the target to make a fortitude save DC (10+Half Level+Wis Mod) or be dazed for one round.

Telling Blow
Prerequisites: BaB 10, Wis 17, Press the Attack, Nerve Strike
Benefit: Once per encounter when an enemy fails his save against Nerve Strike you may force an enemy to make a will save DC (10+Half Level+Wis Mod) or fall unconscious.

The Controler

Redirecting Momentum[Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 1, Wis 13,
Benefit: Once per turn you may move a target creature within your reach 5' by spending a form point as a free action.

Harrying Strikes [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 6, Wis 15, Redirecting Momentum
Benefit: You gain the ability to harry an enemy within your reach. By spending two form points as a swift action you can give a penalty to attack rolls equal to your Wis Mod to the target enemy. This penalty applies only while the enemy is in your reach. In addition you may use Redirecting Momentum on the target without spending a form points.

Weapon Bind [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 12, Wis 17, Redirecting Momentum, Harrying Strikes
Benefit: Wis Mod times an encounter you may negate one attack made by the creature you are harrying by spending a form point as a free action.

The Disciple

Insightful Strokes [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 1, Wis 13, Combat Form
Benefit: You may add your Wis Mod to Combat maneuvers such as tripping or disarming.

Knowing Defense[Combat Form]
Prerequisite: BaB 5, Wis 15, Combat Form, Insightful Strokes
Benefit: Whenever an enemy fails when using a combat maneuver on you, you may use any combat maneuver on him with a bonus equal to your Wis Mod. This maneuver doesn't provoke AoO and the target does not get to react if you fail.

Master of Technique [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 10, Wis 17, Combat Form, Insightful Strikes, Knowing Defense
Benefit: Wis Mod times per encounter you may use a combat maneuver as a free action.

Charisma talents
The Nuller

Disrupting Presence [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 1, Cha 13, Balance rank 4,
Benefit: You may spend a form point as a free action to reduce a targets spell DCs by Cha Mod for one round. Range of 30'. The reduction does not stack with itself.

Absorb Magic [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 5, Cha 15, Disrupting Presence
Benefit: You gain Spell Resistance equal to 10+Cha mod. Or you may add your Cha mod to another form of Spell Resistance you have. Whenever this SR blocks a spell you gain Hit Points equal to twice the spell level, or the equivalent spell level for spell-like abilities.

Disrupting Burst [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 10, Cha 17, Disrupting Presence,*
Absorb Magic
Benefit: Once per encounter you may nullify all magic in an area equal to 5 times your Cha Mod as a swift action. This treats the area around you as a dead magic zone. This dead zone last for three rounds and moves with you.

The Mage-Hunter

Pass the Magic [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 1, Cha 13
Benefit: You may spend a form point to ignore Cha mod worth of AC bonuses, or 5x Cha mod worth of miss chances granted by magic, Spell-like, or Supernatural abilities for an attack. You may spend two form points to gain both benefits.

Disrupting Attack [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 5, Cha 15, Pass the Magic
Benefit: Cha times per encounter when you hit with an attack you may spend two form points to attempt to dispell effects on the target. Works as a targeted greater dispell magic with a caster level equal to your character level. This feat is unaffected by any use of the Disrupting Presence feat.

See Through the Smoke [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 10, Cha 17, Pass the Magic, Disrupting Attack
Benefit: You gain a permanent True Seeing effect.

The Inspirational

Rallying Call [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 1, Cha 13,
Benefit: Cha Mod times an encounter as an immediate action you may use a form point to heal an ally for 3 times his HD of his health. Range 30'.

Holding Shout [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 5, Cha 15, Rallying Call
Benefit: Once an encounter as a move action you may grant an ally within 30' temporary hit points equal to your level plus Cha Mod and a bonus to AC equal to your Cha Mod.

Battlefield Presence [Combat Form]
Prerequisites: BaB 10, Cha 17, Rallying Call, Holding Shout
Benefit: Rallying Call and Holding Shout now affect all allies within 30'.

2012-02-02, 01:10 PM
Reserved. Just in case.

Barbarian MD
2012-02-03, 03:10 PM
I'm a big fan of setting maximum bonuses on homebrew, since you can't ever account for all the material that's out there and things can get rather silly.

For instance a bonus of 2x Con to AC may not sound like much, but consider that I have a character with a Con bonus of +20. Your feat would make him unhitable, and therefore my DM would reject it. (And imagine if I took the tower shield feat, too!) But if you say "2X Con to a max of [20] [HD] [insert other arbitrary limit]" it helps to prevent things from getting out of hand.

Not saying you need to do that, but I think it adds some sanity to things.

I do like the anti-magic chain. I've got something very similar called Color of Magic in my sig. I think you'll find that giving melee folks "nice things" is less about increasing their numbers and more about going them abilities to do something different then "I power attack" every round, as well as out of combat usefulness.

2012-02-03, 03:13 PM
Wow yeah good point will edit. Also I actually have that feat on my character application for the watchtower. Thanks for the comments.

2012-02-03, 03:42 PM
The Mage-Hunter line has been done already, in the form of Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, and Pierce Magical Protection, all of them from Complete Arcane. :smallsmile:

Other than that I can't comment on most of these, I've not got ToB so I can't comment on how they compare though to me some seem a little OP. The Nuller's antimagic effect seems so because normally for a melee combatant, you'd need a very expensive armor enchantment for the same effect.

The Knight line seems like it provides a lot for a little. To get a Constitution bonus to AC, you normally need to get a PrC or a series of feats.

I think http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732 might help for rethinking that line.

2012-02-03, 03:59 PM
I've used that thread.
The optimization level I'm going for is to help melee keep up with casters.

2012-02-03, 05:48 PM
Fair enough. Like I said, I'm not the most well-versed in the rules, but it does seem a bit iffy to me still.

A level 6 Barbarian could have +24 to his AC using only mundane fullplate and a tower shield. That's not counting Dexterity, etc. I've not seen many builds that can match that at level 6.

I'd suggest making it so Shielded Warrior doesn't stack with Armored Warrior, so they have a joined max level or something.

2012-02-03, 06:22 PM
Barbarians don't have heavy armor proficiency or tower shield proficiency. But that is a bit much.
Also that would defeat the point of the chain.

2012-02-03, 06:50 PM
Sorry, I was just using the first melee class that came to my head. :smalltongue: Anything with full BAB and heavy armor proficiency then.

Yeah, sorry, I'm not much good with fixes. :smalleek: Just thought I'd offer my thoughts.

2012-02-03, 07:18 PM
Yeah I see your point I just dont have a fix. :smallconfused:
I appreciate the help anyway.
Also anyone have any Wis feats they'd like to share, please.
Also I need another path for Wisdom.

2012-02-03, 07:52 PM
Disrupting Presence is painfully vague. As is, you could permanently drop someone to CL 0 in a single round with Combat Reflexes. Here are a few things you should clear up-

What sort of action is it to burn an AoO? How long does this last? Does it stack with itself? What happens when a CL is reduced to 0, or lower?

Next, Absorb Magic should be dropped to 10+Class Level, or 10+Charisma Modifier. Spell resistance is intended to give about a 50% chance to resist spells cast by someone of your own level. However, with this feat and a bit of charisma optimization, you could easily make yourself immune to magic cast by someone of, say, your level+5 or lower.

Next, disrupting burst has no duration, granting you the power to permanently make dead zones at level 12. It's also unclear as to whether or not the effect has to be centered on you, what the range is if it doesn't, or if it moves with you.

Pass the Magic is interesting, in that at low levels (when it is apparently meant to be taken) it is utterly useless, apart from perhaps granting a -1 to the AC of a particularly wealthy boss. However, at higher levels it would either be useless because you're fighting a monster with dex, natural armor and deflection, or would make your attacks unmissable by shredding every form of defense permitted to humanoids. The worst part is that, since it's usable 1/round, it would consistently be either a dead feat or an I-Win button for melee combat.

Disrupting attack needs to be reduced to charisma mod times per encounter, at the least. Also, realize that you're giving a 6th level spell usable more or less at will to a 6th level character. Perhaps you should drop it to normal dispel magic?

Rallying call is just... off. At low levels, when it's intended to be taken, it heals 1-3 health. It's usable every round, but it also precludes your other feats, and really, why not just cast Lesser Vigor? However, it would be incredibly vulnerable to cheese. I'm imagining a barbarian taking leadership just to get 10 1st level mooks with this feat to heal him fully every round. Also, you have a floating Cha Mod at the beginning of the description. I'm not sure what it's supposed to mean.

Holding shout is fine. Not as good as spells available at the same time, though, and doesn't get much better. It's not a feat that I would take.

Battlefield presence just made that group of 10 12th level warriors unbeatable. At that level Rallying Call combined with Holding Shout at the same time would just give all allies within 30 ft. fast healing 10, with an additional 10 health the first round. This could either be cheesed like mad or horribly underpowered- I'm not seeing too much middle ground.

Press the Attack is decent. It won't help much after 5th level or so, but 1d3+str extra damage is pretty big for the first few levels. However, there is one glaring abuse- with indefinite (or even just high) AoO, a monk can hit around, oh, 30 times per round (more with luck rerolls), assuming that he misses on a 5 or lower. This is, granted, an abuse unlikely to appear (who plays epic level monks?). Still, it needs to be capped- the high gods disapprove of infinite loops.

Cheap shot needs a duration.

Quick Question- why is a street fighter going to have 19 wisdom? That person would be more perceptive and understanding than the most wise human in the world. I don't see them beating up thugs for a few sp.

Armored warrior presents a few difficulties with the Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Barbarian 3/Deepwarden 2 Arctic Dwarf. The level cap is good, though.

Shielded Warrior begins to be a tad more problematic- I'm adding my Con mod to AC 5 times now, to a maximum of 14+con. While wearing heavy armor and using a shield.

And... shielded grace just about makes this dwarf guy immune to melee. Especially when you've got Stoneskin, Displacement, Empowered Bear's Endurance and the like in effect. I'm not seeing anything short of a dragon hitting this guy.

Speed is a good feat. Hands down better than dash, of course, but it does have a prerequisite which somewhat nullifies that.

Pounce is fine. Barbarians are getting that at level 1.

Running Fighter is similarly a good feat. Especially since you can use it every round. Of course, it does present the slight problem that every enemy you attack will also get an attack of opportunity against you, somewhat mitigating its usefulness (each of them takes a 10% hit to health, you get dropped to 15% of your full hp).

Two problems- one, this feat is improved grapple except better and without the crappy feat prerequisite. Oh, and it scales. The second problem is that, especially at lower levels, you'll completely dominate nearly everything you fight with this. Just be a Jotunbrud human fighter, and snag this feat along with improved grapple at 3rd level. You've now got at least a +17 to grapple checks, compared to the average of, say +5 among creatures you'll be fighting?

Maneuver grapple is fine. It does mitigate all penalties of grappling, but that's what feats are for, no?

Merciless Grappler is alright. It's not exactly on par with the other save-or-dies that spell caster can already pump out, but then again, nothing is.

In conclusion, a bit of clean-up, clarification and monkeying around with mechanics should have this cleaned up soon.

2012-02-03, 07:58 PM
Barbarians don't have heavy armor proficiency or tower shield proficiency. But that is a bit much.
Two more feats. A human barbarian can get 4 of the 5 feats this would require at level 6.

Don't know if that helps.

Also, this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/printthread.php?t=149854&pp=40) might be relevant to your interests since it contains feats (among other things).

2012-02-03, 08:05 PM
Wow thank you so much Othesemo and DracoDei.
I'll add the durations that's a oversight. :smallredface:
Disrupting attack I thought I did that huh.
Absorb the magic I'll reduce it.
Rallying cry was meant to have an encouterly cap on it.
Thank you for the others.
Working on the knight still obviously.
Shielded Grace has a cap at 50%.
Huh I'll het rid of the bonuses to grapple then that is way to high.
It's called Streetfighter till I can get a better name for it.
I know about that but I don't have another ability for the last feat but that is why it is a Work in Progress isn't it.
The fighter Manifesto thank you for the link. I think I hit on a bunch of the problems especially the ones that affect other melee mundanes.

2012-02-04, 09:28 PM
So the biggest thing I can see right now is lack of synergy - you started off really neat, by tying everything together with Combat Forms. And then you differentiated your mobility feats from your strength feats with the mobility tag - also doing good. But then as far as I can see, everything else is just Combat Form, or nothing.

As was mentioned, it's not the big numbers, but the situational options that makes playing your character more fun. So far, you've got 9 feats for each stat, and Combat Form, which ties it all together.

Instead, how about this:

Combat Form: StrengthPrerequisites BaB 1
Benefit: You gain balance as a class skill for all classes. In addition you gain an additional attack of opportunity for each Combat Form: Strength feat you have. Every other level after you take this feat, you gain a single additional Combat Form: Strength feat. You must meet all the requirements of this feat in order to take it - if you don't meet any of the requirements for a Combat Form: Strength feat, you gain no new feat.
Special: A monk may take this as his first level bonus feat.

And then you do that for each set - the set essentially becomes a class feature. A fighter could feasibly have 2-3 sets by level 20. Combat Form now scales incredibly well, and AoO's could be exchanged for "Form Points" or some similar mechanic - which can be spent cross-set for various benefits.

2012-02-04, 10:03 PM
Point one yeah I wanted to see how the Mobility tag went down before I did it with all of them.
Point two I thought about doing something like that but tying it to a stat goes against what I wanted to do with these feats.
Point three form points are an interesting idea I might nab that.

2012-02-04, 10:19 PM
Perhaps not to a stat, but definitely to a theme - I'd meant taking the Mobility theme, and expanding it, adding say a 'tanking' theme, or a 'utility' theme. And then you can have cross-theme abilities, like dungeon crasher - a mix of the Mobility Theme and then Tanking Theme. One thing you could eventually do is work existing, useful feats (like dungeon crasher, the power attack and related line, etc.,) and working them into your framework.

and then you tie everything together with, again, the form points. Like Incarnum, but more readily accessible and widespread - instead of investing them, you use them every turn, or have a mechanic for refreshing them, or gain bonuses for having a certain amount.

One mechanic you could use would be the limit break style; certain feats would grant little utility on their own, but by using abilities gained from feats in their theme, you gain form points - which you can spend on these limit-break style feats.

Another would be incarnum-styled, where you invest your form points into theme feats, gaining increasing bonuses as you do so.

A third choice is flat bonuses - this choice scales the hardest, so you might have to involve some fractional bonuses if you want to have a lot of options open.

Finally, there's the route I went with my Archer; you get a pool that refills every turn, with few, very limited, other ways to refill it - each turn you can spend this pool on various actions and abilities granted by your feats.

2012-02-04, 10:52 PM
Point one interesting I might do that.
Point two I like the way I have it now. But those are nice suggestions.
Also any ideas for Int abilities anyone please.

2012-02-04, 11:30 PM
Tactical Decision: (Put into your intelligence/tactical theme, with minimal requirements)
You and allies within (10xINT) may take a full round during a surprise round.

Ambush/Flank/Spearhead: (Put into your intelligence/tactical theme, with moderate requirements)
You and allies within (10xINT) increase your Flanking range from adjacent to 10 feet. If 2 or more allies in range (including yourself) are adjacent to an opponent, that opponent counts as being flanked. This ability may allow a person with a ranged weapon to flank an opponent.

Battle Plan: (Put into your intelligence/tactical theme, with high requirements)
You may gain a number of rerolls equal to your INT during any encounter where you participated in a surprise round. You may allow allies within (10xINT) to pull from this pool of rerolls. If a reroll from this pool fails, remaining rerolls take a -1 penalty during the encounter.

Outmaneuver, Out-think, Outplan: (Limit Break, requires all three of the intelligence/tactical theme feats, highest requirements)
During any encounter you or your allies use all of your rerolls from Battle Plan, you or your allies incapacitate a flanked enemy, and you or your allies take a full round in the surprise round, you and your allies gain double experience from the encounter.

2012-02-04, 11:54 PM
Those are nice a little to dependent on surprise though. Having surprise would allow you to get a strategy. Tactics is battle Strategy is war. That line is for adding group versatility in combat to help adjust your attacks on the fly. To allow you to take advantage of any opening.
Cunning is feinting and backstabbing.
Trapsmith is self-explanatory. It's all about setting and disabling traps quickly.

2012-02-05, 02:05 PM
The fact that you have AoOs under the strength line seems a bit odd, since the main feat for that (Combat Reflexes) cues off your dexterity.

2012-02-06, 04:34 PM
Turned all references to AoO to Form points.
Still need more Int ideas.