how would it change the game if... (a magic question)

[big teej]

simple question. how would it change the game if....

Sorcerers can ONLY cast spells that DO NOT have material components

and

Wizards can ONLY cast spells that DO have material components

[FearlessGnome]

Well, for one thing, no body would ever play a sorcerer again.

Wizards would lose out on... what? Dimension door? I'm sure there is quite a few other spells as well, but, really, by far the majority of all arcane spells have zero cost material components for flavour.

[Manateee]

Sorcerers sound terrible.
And wizards sound either unaffected or like Primitive Casters.

[Ernir]

If I may ask, what on earth inspired this idea? :smalleek:

Anyway, Eschew Materials and Snowcasting are now feat taxes.

[prufock]

Run a search with Class: Sorcerer or Wizard, Components: Material. That will give you the Wizard's spell list. Then run the same, but replace Components: Material with Does Not Have: Material. You can do this at imarvintpa's spell search engine.

Both will give you fairly big lists. If you stick to core, Sorc loses out a lot, but outside core there is versatility.

Follow-up question: What happens if Sorcerers take Eschew Materials? Do they get access to those spells that would normally have material components under 1 gp? That would improve them a lot.

[Koury]

Well, lets see... Level 1 spells (core only):

Sorc
Endure Elements (Abj)
Hold Portal (Abj)
Shield (Abj)
Obscuring Mist (Conj)
Detect Secret Doors (Div)
Charm Person (Ench)
Hypnotism (Ench)
Burning Hands (Evo)
Magic Missile (Evo)
Shocking Grasp (Evo)
Disguise Self (Illu)
Cause Fear (Nec)
Chill Touch (Nec)
Ray of Enfeeblement (Nec)
Animate Rope (Trans)
Erase (Trans)
Expeditious Retreat (Trans)
Feather Fall (Trans)
Magic Weapon (Trans)

Wiz
Alarm (Abj)
Protection from X (Abj)
Grease (Conj)
Mage Armor (Conj)
Mount (Conj)
Summon Monster I (Conj)
Unseen Servant (Conj)
Comprehend Languages (Div)
Detect Undead (Div)
Identify (Div)
True Strike (Div)
Sleep (Ench)
Floating Disk (Evo)
Color Spray (Illu)
Magic Aura (Illu)
Silent Image (Illu)
Ventriloquism (Illu)
Enlarge Person (Trans)
Jump (Trans)
Reduce Person (Trans)

So, from this one level of spells, I see a few things. Most Conj, Div and Illu spells have M or F components. Wizards got 0 Nec spells (though they get almost all level 2 Nec spells). Sorcs get Obscuring Mist as their only Conj spell (and continue a pattern of weak Conj selection). Transmutation seems to fall to Wizards also (Sorcs get Alter Self, but Wizards get Polymorph and Shapechange). Speaking of 9ths, almost all go to the Sorc. Wizards get Foresight, Crushing Hand (woo!) and Summon Monster IX but Sorcs get all of Abj and Illu, they get Gate, Time Stop, Wish, Energy Drain, etc.

All in all, it kinda just seems random as to what effects it would have. I get where this comes from fluffwise, but the same idea is usually given as free Eschew Materials to Sorcs.

[Tyndmyr]

simple question. how would it change the game if....

Sorcerers can ONLY cast spells that DO NOT have material components

and

Wizards can ONLY cast spells that DO have material components

People would stop playing sorcerers, and wizards would be basically unchanged.

Or...they'd spend a feat to remove components from all spells or add them to them.

[Mystify]

If you want to create a bigger differential between wizards and sorcerers, that is fine, but you need to do something more precise. Keying it off the fairly arbitrary attribute of needing material components is rather scattershot, and will not create a balanced divide.

[Tyndmyr]

Honestly, I'd just give the sorc Eschew Materials for free, and bam, there we have our desired difference.

[Coidzor]

Why? Why did you take the eschew materials as an bonus feat idea and take it in the worst possible direction?

[big teej]

Well, for one thing, no body would ever play a sorcerer again.

Wizards would lose out on... what? Dimension door? I'm sure there is quite a few other spells as well, but, really, by far the majority of all arcane spells have zero cost material components for flavour.

I said material components. I didn't specify expensive ones.


If I may ask, what on earth inspired this idea? :smalleek:



curiosity, why everyone is having such a negative reaction to me wanting to know stuff is beyond me :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

curiosity, why everyone is having such a negative reaction to me wanting to know stuff is beyond me :smalltongue:

Because we know you'd actually do it. :smalltongue:

[Mr. Zolrane]

Honestly, I'd just give the sorc Eschew Materials for free, and bam, there we have our desired difference.

And... another reason to play Pathfinder. Sorcerers getting Eschew Materials as a bonus feat is RAW in PF.

Though honestly, my group and I never bothered with material components without an appreciable cost anyway. It's just needless minutia that takes the focus away from the fun stuff. Also, as someone said before, it's also an aggravating feat tax.

[Mystify]

And... another reason to play Pathfinder. Sorcerers getting Eschew Materials as a bonus feat is RAW in PF.

Though honestly, my group and I never bothered with material components without an appreciable cost anyway. It's just needless minutia that takes the focus away from the fun stuff. Also, as someone said before, it's also an aggravating feat tax.

Most people just get a spell component pouch and proceed to forget all about it. It generally only comes up if you are grappling anyways.

[Slipperychicken]

Material components are literally puns based off the spells effects (nuts for Confusion, a Copper for Detect Thoughts=penny for your thoughts, sulfur for fireball, eye ointment for True Seeing). That's why component pouches exist, so we can enjoy the puns without monstrous paperwork.


@Teej: I think the concept is cool, but all it will do, ultimately, is piss off your arcane casters and give them even more paperwork.

[big teej]

Because we know you'd actually do it. :smalltongue:

you hush. :smallredface: :smalltongue:



@Teej: I think the concept is cool, but all it will do, ultimately, is piss off your arcane casters and give them even more paperwork.

I concur with your assessment, with the slight caveat of:

typically, if/when I do something like this, I do all the extra work required.
to use this as my example, if, (and I really wanna stress the IF) I were to actually use such a limitation. I would personally go through each of my books, spell by spell, and seperate them so that the players have a handy dandy list of spell name, the book its in, and the page number.

but at this point this is purely me satisfying my curiosity.

because I tend to not make changes until it has been proven they are required at my table.

perfect example: the monk.

for the longest time, I had nobody play a monk (not in a serious game at least) as such, I was unsure if it'd stack up against other characters at the level we play at.

only recently did I have a player give it a go... it was (surprising none of you) a dismal failure. so I sought out a new version of the monk to use. and it's working out just fine.



in a similar vein, I have several ideas (and questions, lots and lots of questions) about d4 casters, but I've had a whopping 2 d4 casters to DM for... so I require more information before I act on anything.

/ramble.