Rorschach builds?

[Accordion Twome]

I was just wondering if any one has a build for Rorschach from watchmen.
I was thinking that it would be a paladin/X, but I'm not sure.

Thanks :smallsmile:

[Tyndmyr]

I'd go Paladin/Urban Ranger, IMO.

[jmelesky]

Pathfinder's Inquisitor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor) class would work really well, i think (bonuses to Intimidate, Sense Motive, also tracking; detect alignment as a class power; class skills include Stealth and Climb).

[Lapak]

I'd go Paladin/Urban Ranger, IMO.And he'd lose his Paladinhood within ten minutes due to needless murder and torture, so just Urban Ranger then?

Inquisitor does seem like a decent fit, though.

[gkathellar]

Barbarian/Rogue/Avenging Executioner, potentially with some actual Vigilante thrown in.

[Tyndmyr]

And he'd lose his Paladinhood within ten minutes due to needless murder and torture, so just Urban Ranger then?

Inquisitor does seem like a decent fit, though.

Grey guard, probably.

But anyway, murderizing the guilty is an age old part of D&D. Even paladins. Perhaps especially paladins.

That said, if he had to lose paladinhood to get a baddie, he'd totally do it.

[Flickerdart]

Rorschach is just a guy with a good head for resourcefulness, a mask, and huge balls. I wouldn't give him any more than 3 class levels, never mind mixing it up with PrCs.

[Tyndmyr]

Factotum would also work.

See, he's got the whole detective thing going on...observant. Creative. He almost certainly has a lot of skills. Lots of experience.

[Slipperychicken]

Factotum would also work.

See, he's got the whole detective thing going on...observant. Creative. He almost certainly has a lot of skills. Lots of experience.

Seconded. Rorschach actually approximates PC behavior in some ways...

[Lapak]

Grey guard, probably.

But anyway, murderizing the guilty is an age old part of D&D. Even paladins. Perhaps especially paladins.

That said, if he had to lose paladinhood to get a baddie, he'd totally do it.Yeah, but Rorschach doesn't just murder the guilty. He murders the moral-grey-area and tortures the completely-unrelated to get information. I was specifically thinking of the scene where he goes into a bar and starts breaking a guy's fingers to get him to talk. Did that guy do anything wrong? Did he have anything to do with the matter at hand? No. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Factotum is a much better fit.

[ericgrau]

Rorschach is just a guy with a good head for resourcefulness, a mask, and huge balls. I wouldn't give him any more than 3 class levels, never mind mixing it up with PrCs.

Urban Ranger 3 then.

I might peg him at level 4-5 because after all level 5 is the level of elites, athletes, captains and other major figures who are still within ordinary limits. Maybe some of his companions are (or were) better fits for elite in terms of combat but he might have more skills to make up for it, meaning he's the same level but it's in more of a skillful and less of a combative class. Heck maybe even Urban Ranger 3-4 / Expert 1, not necessarily in that order. Or another skillfull class(es).

[Shpadoinkle]

I'd go with straight rogue, maybe factotum.

[Slipperychicken]

That said, if he had to lose paladinhood to get a baddie, he'd totally do it.

You seem to assume he would have signed up for it in the first place. I imagine him glancing at the paladin's code for about two seconds before ripping it in half and tossing it into a burning building. I also don't see him being bossed around by a god (like at end of movie when he (spoiler) would rather be killed by Dr. Manhattan than submit to his orders). He's so far from Paladin material it's not even funny.

[skycycle blues]

You seem to assume he would have signed up for it in the first place. I imagine him glancing at the paladin's code for about two seconds before ripping it in half and tossing it into a burning building. I also don't see him being bossed around by a god (like at end of movie when he (spoiler) would rather be killed by Dr. Manhattan than submit to his orders). He's so far from Paladin material it's not even funny.

He started super heroics to be a protector for people who no one else would protect. Very Paladin like. Then he pretty much became a Grey Guard. To actually make Rorschach, Factotum or Rouge would probably work, but if I were to play a character based on Rorschach, I would do Paladin into Grey Guard.

[Glimbur]

You seem to assume he would have signed up for it in the first place. I imagine him glancing at the paladin's code for about two seconds before ripping it in half and tossing it into a burning building. I also don't see him being bossed around by a god (like at end of movie when he (spoiler) would rather be killed by Dr. Manhattan than submit to his orders). He's so far from Paladin material it's not even funny.

He'd follow the code if it matched his own personal code. Greyguard is a decent fit for him. I'd argue that your example at the end is why he could be a paladin: no compromise in the face of what he sees as evil.

[hamishspence]

Shadowbane Inquisitor (Complete Adventurer) is a good PRC for paladin-rogues. Hardline in the extreme- and they retain all their PRC powers even after falling and changing alignment.

Grey Guards, by contrast, lose their Grey Guard powers if they ever cease to be lawful good.

And only at top level in the PRC, do they retain their powers after committing a evil act "in the line of duty".

EDIT: background text on the Order of Illumination- the group that has shadowbane inquisitors

Along with their comrades, (as members of the order call themselves) the shadowbane stalkers, inquisitors find and confront evil wherever it hides. Unlike shadowbane stalkers, however, inquisitors purge evil rather than finding it.

Their relentless zeal and their overwhelming belief in their own righteousness allow shadowbane inquisitors to root out evil cleanly, even if it costs the lives of a few good creatures, without the moral doubt that other knights might feel.

The Order of Illumination expounds that it is better to sacrifice a village that hides a powerful demon than it is to risk letting the demon escape or the evil spread.

Although inquisitors remain devoted to the cause of good, this conviction allows them to use their abilities against enemies regardless of their alignment.

[The Glyphstone]

Paladin of Honor 1/Paladin of Freedom 1/Paladin of Tyranny 1/Paladin of Slaughter 1 multiclass, because no one can ever agree on his alignment.:smallbiggrin:

[hex0]

Paladin of Honor 1/Paladin of Freedom 1/Paladin of Tyranny 1/Paladin of Slaughter 1 multiclass, because no one can ever agree on his alignment.:smallbiggrin:

I'm for putting him in the Lawful Neutral camp. I think there is a "Judge" variant paladin in Dragon Mag?

[DegenPaladin]

Assuming you were to take the Spellbreaker Inquisitor to level 20, what would be the best school to be immune to?

[The Glyphstone]

Assuming you were to take the Spellbreaker Inquisitor to level 20, what would be the best school to be immune to?

Conjuration would be my pick, since Enchantment can be Mind Blanked, Necromancy can be Death Warded, and the other school's danger spells almost all allow saving throws.

[elvengunner69]

Lawful? How can anyone think he's lawful? He's Chaotic all the way. Even his mask is chaotic.

[Golden Ladybug]

Lawful? How can anyone think he's lawful? He's Chaotic all the way. Even his mask is chaotic.

That's arguable. He has Chaotic Traits, but I would argue that he is decidedly Lawful (if reprehensible). He acts in such a way that he fully believes he is doing the right thing, follows the guidance of an authority figure (even if that authority figure is a Right Wing political figure) and would rather than do anything that betrays his moral code. He is immovable, and has no tolerance and makes no exceptions for what he views as wrong, and yet he is also devoted to prosecuting people who have broken the Law or done immoral things.

He could be said to embody the Lawful end of the alignment spectrum in all its negative ways, so even though he does show some chaotic traits (adaptability most prevalently), I wouldn't agree with him being a Chaotic character.

Build-wise, I'd say that Barbarian would be a good fit, if it weren't for the fact that it is invalidated by preventing Rorschach from being a Lawful Character. Alignment Restrictions strike again.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You know you guys are proving The Glypthstone's point, right?

[Golden Ladybug]

You know you guys are proving The Glypthstone's point, right?

Eeyup.

I don't mind too much; The Glyphstone is a pretty cool guy, he deserves to be proved right :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

He'd follow the code if it matched his own personal code. Greyguard is a decent fit for him. I'd argue that your example at the end is why he could be a paladin: no compromise in the face of what he sees as evil.

That's just it, though. His code is totally incompatible with the Paladins, and he isn't willing to take **** from anyone, including the dnd pantheon. Paladins are supposed to take orders from the gods. He doesn't fight in the name of religion, or of authority. He uses torture as justice, and breaks peoples fingers without a thought. He despises the psychologist, who tries to rehabilitate criminals. In dnd, rehabilitation is Good. He fills a journal with insane ramblings. Not to mention that his whole schtick is that he's dark, disgusting, crazy, willing to do anything, even harming the innocent(Paladins extreme no-no), to execute his violent and needlessly painful version of justice. He's everything the Paladin isn't.

I can't believe I just posted an alignment rant about Rorschach...

[sonofzeal]

That's just it, though. His code is totally incompatible with the Paladins, and he isn't willing to take **** from anyone, including the dnd pantheon. Paladins are supposed to take orders from the gods. He doesn't fight in the name of religion, or of authority. He uses torture as justice, and breaks peoples fingers without a thought. He despises the psychologist, who tries to rehabilitate criminals. In dnd, rehabilitation is Good. He fills a journal with insane ramblings. Not to mention that his whole schtick is that he's dark, disgusting, crazy, willing to do anything, even harming the innocent(Paladins extreme no-no), to execute his violent and needlessly painful version of justice. He's everything the Paladin isn't.

I can't believe I just posted an alignment rant about Rorschach...
If Paladins can be devoted to an Ideal rather than a God, the way Clerics can, then I think that fits him.

Let's look at the Paladin code. It effectively breaks down to six points.

1) Respect legitimate authority. This one's dubious, but in the Watchman universe there's plenty of reason to suspect the police/government aren't "legitimate authority". Rorschach would certainly claim they aren't.

2) Not lying. I'm AFB, but I remember Rorschach as a fairly honest fellow. If he needed to lie, he just wouldn't say anything.

3) Not cheating. Some of Rorschach's dirty fighting could be claimed as "cheating", but multiple sources have established that D&D Paladins are allowed to use Sneak Attack. I'd argue "cheating" here means "cheating at games", or otherwise deceiving people for personal gain. I don't think Rorschach would do that.

4) Not using poison. Poison doesn't really seem his style, and I'm pretty confident there's no reference to him poisoning anyone.

5) Helping those in need. While I'm pretty sure he was never shown doing this, I also can't remember any instance when he should have and didn't. Unless you count his victims, but they were all morally ambiguous... and if he were a paladin, Detect Evil would give him a way to solidly resolve that ambiguity. The major reason we can't act like that in the real world is because we don't have a good way to resolve that ambiguity. If he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person was indeed deserving of the punishment he inflicted, that makes his actions much more justified. Finally, there's that "save us"/"no" bit from the beginning, but he never acts on it. More to the point, towards the end he's fighting with every tool at his disposal to save that society he'd condemned so harshly. As much as he wants all that corruption and filth washed away, he's willing to put his life on the line trying to prevent exactly that.

6) Punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Oh heck yes. He's all over this one.


Finally: "Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon." If that isn't the Paladin motto, I don't know what is.

[Dumbledore lives]

Rorschach is a primary example of why the 3.5 alignment system doesn't work for many complex characters. One could argue he's just about every alignment excluding true neutral, though there could be arguments for that even. I personally believe he was lawful good with neutral traits, but that's a personal opinion, and I can see arguments for Chaotic Evil, it's just the way it is.

[Seharvepernfan]

Unless they're all factotum//monks, D&D doesn't fit Watchmen very well.

Fallout's SPECIAL would, however.

[Telonius]

If Paladins can be devoted to an Ideal rather than a God, the way Clerics can, then I think that fits him.

Let's look at the Paladin code. It effectively breaks down to six points.

1) Respect legitimate authority. This one's dubious, but in the Watchman universe there's plenty of reason to suspect the police/government aren't "legitimate authority". Rorschach would certainly claim they aren't.

2) Not lying. I'm AFB, but I remember Rorschach as a fairly honest fellow. If he needed to lie, he just wouldn't say anything.

3) Not cheating. Some of Rorschach's dirty fighting could be claimed as "cheating", but multiple sources have established that D&D Paladins are allowed to use Sneak Attack. I'd argue "cheating" here means "cheating at games", or otherwise deceiving people for personal gain. I don't think Rorschach would do that.

4) Not using poison. Poison doesn't really seem his style, and I'm pretty confident there's no reference to him poisoning anyone.

5) Helping those in need. While I'm pretty sure he was never shown doing this, I also can't remember any instance when he should have and didn't. Unless you count his victims, but they were all morally ambiguous... and if he were a paladin, Detect Evil would give him a way to solidly resolve that ambiguity. The major reason we can't act like that in the real world is because we don't have a good way to resolve that ambiguity. If he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person was indeed deserving of the punishment he inflicted, that makes his actions much more justified. Finally, there's that "save us"/"no" bit from the beginning, but he never acts on it. More to the point, towards the end he's fighting with every tool at his disposal to save that society he'd condemned so harshly. As much as he wants all that corruption and filth washed away, he's willing to put his life on the line trying to prevent exactly that.

6) Punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Oh heck yes. He's all over this one.


Finally: "Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon." If that isn't the Paladin motto, I don't know what is.

7) Never willingly commit an evil act. And there's the problem...

I absolutely approve of the idea of Paladins devoted to a cause. But if Rorschach was one of those, "never committing an evil act" is not part of that cause. I'd peg him as lawful neutral (subset: crazy). I don't see a huge difference between his phrase and, "Let justice be done, though the heavens fall" - and that one is inscribed on quite a few courthouses around the country.

[sonofzeal]

7) Never willingly commit an evil act. And there's the problem...

I absolutely approve of the idea of Paladins devoted to a cause. But if Rorschach was one of those, "never committing an evil act" is not part of that cause. I'd peg him as lawful neutral (subset: crazy). I don't see a huge difference between his phrase and, "Let justice be done, though the heavens fall" - and that one is inscribed on quite a few courthouses around the country.
Well, I have this crazy idea for Rorschach...

What if, early on, he became a Paladin? What would "Detect Evil" feel like in the real world? What would that do to you, knowing inescapably just how depraved, how corrupted, the people around you really were? Imagine walking down the street knowing, as if one of the fundamental laws of the universe, all of the sins of each person you pass - each act of selfishness, of maliciousness, of depravity. How badly would that screw you up? What would that make you, through the years?

Honestly... I think it'd make you kill yourself, or turn you into Rorschach.

[SilverLeaf167]

I personally second/third/whatever Factotum. He uses wits and skill to make up for his lack of hi-tech equipment, martial arts skills or super powers. Urban Ranger and (any) Paladin both just lack some of his numerous skills, so they wouldn't really work.

As a side note, I think people keep making these threads as an attempt to divide the jolly folks of GitP into an online civil war. :smallwink:

[sonofzeal]

I personally second/third/whatever Factotum. He uses wits and skill to make up for his lack of hi-tech equipment, martial arts skills or super powers. Urban Ranger and (any) Paladin both just lack some of his numerous skills, so they wouldn't really work.

As a side note, I think people keep making these threads as an attempt to divide the jolly folks of GitP into an online civil war. :smallwink:
Yeah, I agree Factotum would be best to represent his abilities. I just don't think the Paladin Code would chafe as much as some people think. While he's reprehensible by our standards, the mere existance of "Detect Evil" as an at-will changes the whole context in a way I find interesting to explore. I really do think it would drive you kind of crazy the way Rorschach is, or make you suicidal. One of the two, depending on the person.

But yes, as far as replicating his abilities, Rogue or Factotum is best.

[Comet]

He sneaks into places he's not supposed to sneak into, gathers clues, intimidates people and then beats them up.

A rogue, for sure.

[Tyndmyr]

You seem to assume he would have signed up for it in the first place. I imagine him glancing at the paladin's code for about two seconds before ripping it in half and tossing it into a burning building. I also don't see him being bossed around by a god (like at end of movie when he (spoiler) would rather be killed by Dr. Manhattan than submit to his orders). He's so far from Paladin material it's not even funny.

The man is immensely lawful, and considers his actions to be fighting evil, and to be extremely necessary.

Choosing to be killed by Dr Manhattan instead of accepting a massive murder/conspiracy is pretty much the definition of a lawful good act. I could not have chosen a better example of what a paladin in that situation would do.

The problem with Rorschach as a paladin is that he's in a crapsack world.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Wait if Rorschach a Factotem than what the hell is Ozymandias? I suppose he could just be higher level. Watchmen is full of great inspiration for the rp side of characters, however I think it's a very poor source of inspiration for mechanical builds. Most of the extraordinary-ness of the non-Manhattan cast come from good stats and being significantly higher level than the world around them.

Sure they could all be level 3

Rorschach-Rogue, Factotem, Urban Ranger
Nite Owl- Artificer or any of the above +toys
Silk Spectre- Swordsage
Comedian- Ranger, Fighter, some kind of modern gun class
Ozymandias- Factotem and higher level

However you could just argue that they're all level 5 monks with feats, acfs and such to get all the nonstandard skills they have. You'll need a very strong build to have the level of BA that Rorschach gets as a level 3-5 whatever in a world or commoner 1's with some warrior 1 thugs. I'd suggest something along the lines of T_G's Feral Dreadlord.

[Zonugal]

This is another type of situation in which I feel E6 is a better system to model people like Rorschach but going off of standard D&D I think a build like the one below does a fair job of translating the character into a traditional D&D campaign setting.

Walter ‘Rorschach’ Kovacs: Male Human Rogue 1/Paladin 1/Urban Ranger 2; CR 4; Medium Humanoid (human); HD 1d6+2/1d10+2/2d8+4; hp 30; Init +3; Spd 30 ft.; AC 17 (10 +3 dex +4 armor), touch 13, flat-footed 14; Base Atk +3; Grp +5; Atk +5 melee (1d3+2/x2; unarmed strike); SA Sneak Attack (+1d6), Smite Evil (1/day); SQ Feint Death, Aura of Good, Detect Evil (at will), Favored Enemy (Humanoids: Humans; +2), Voice of the City; AL LG; SV Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +0; Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 8.
Skills, Skill Tricks and Feats: Balance +5 (2 ranks +3 dex +2 synergy bonus -2 acp), Bluff -3 (0 ranks -1 cha -2 abrasive), Climb +4 (2 ranks +2 str -2 acp +2 tool bonus), Craft (Writing) +4 (2 ranks +2 int), Diplomacy -2 (0 ranks -1 cha +2 synergy bonus -2 abrasive -1 suspicious), Jump +4 (2 ranks +2 str +2 synergy bonus -2 acp), Gather Information +6 (3 ranks -1 cha +2 synergy bonus +2 urban tracking bonus), Heal +0 (1 rank -1 wis), Hide +6 (5 ranks +3 dex -2 acp), Intimidate +3 (4 ranks -1 cha +1 abrasive -1 suspicious), Knowledge (Local) +8 (6 ranks +2 int), Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) +3 (1 rank +2 int), Knowledge (Religion) +3 (1 rank +2 int), Listen +4 (5 ranks -1 wis), Move Silently +6 (5 ranks +3 dex -2 acp), Open Lock +7 (2 ranks +3 dex +2 tools bonus), Profession (Tailor) +1 (2 ranks -1 wis), Read/Write/Speak (Common, Orc & Undercommon), Search +10 (6 ranks +2 int +2 tool bonus), Sense Motive +5 (6 ranks -1 wis), Spot +4 (5 ranks -1 wis), and Tumble +6 (5 ranks +3 dex -2 acp); Collector of Stories; Fearless, Improved Unarmed Strike, Investigator, Knowledge Devotion, Urban Track, and Two-Weapon Fighting.
Traits & Flaws: Abrasive & Suspicious; Shaky
Equipment (5400 gp; 44 lbs.): A Chain Shirt (100 gp; +4 armor, -2 ACP, 25 lbs.), Climber’s Kit (80 gp; 5 lbs.), Cloak of Resistance (1,000 gp), Explorer’s Outfit (10 gp; 8 lbs.), Potion of Lesser Vigor (50 gp), Rod of Ropes (4,000 gp), 3 Sunrods (6 gp; 3 lbs.), Masterwork Thieves Tools (100 gp; 2 lbs), Masterwork Tool [Search] (50 gp; 1 lb.) and a pouch with 4 gp leftover.
Sources: Feint Death (Exemplars of Evil), Urban Class Features - Skilled City-Dweller [Ride for Tumble] (Web), Urban Class Features - Voice of the City (Web), Investigator (Eberron Campaign Setting), Fearless (Players Guide to Faerun), Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion), Rod of Ropes (Complete Scoundrel), Lesser Vigor (Complete Divine), Urban Track (Unearthed Arcana), and Flaws & Traits (Unearthed Arcana).

So I approached an adaptation of Rorschach as a classic adventurer in a large metropolis. He starts out his career as a rogue in a manner that he has been living on the streets, learning to survive and such. Eventually he comes to the attention of the local clergy and they see potential within him to use his experience in the gutters & alleys to fight against impurity & wickedness. This is where he becomes a Paladin and a large bulk of his career is spent at this level. But eventually his soul begins to weigh down as a result of seeing so many vile beings pass him by every day. Eventually he begins to become more & more engrossed in rooting out this evil beyond any of his other religious duties. At this stage in his career he leaves the clergy and starts on a path of investigation. He wonders the streets applying ruthless justice but approaches the scene in a much more skillful manner. Eventually within his adventurers he meets up with an artificer and they become a duo. They're pulled into a larger organization full of other skilled beings and we all know what happens from there.

From a mechanical stance this version of Rorschach has a couple strengths and weaknesses. Starting off with the second, he isn't very strong in resisting enchantments & other mental challenges. While I'd have liked to have seen this be higher the hit to wisdom (which I feel he deserves) and his more martial career means he doesn't get too strong a bonus to it. He also takes a slight penalty to ranged attacks and that was largely to pick up the Fearless regional feat. We are rarely shown his aptitude with ranged weaponry and with his dexterity bonus I think it is an okay trade-off for immunity to all fear effects (which helps with his low will save).

Now for strengths he has a lot of nice skills which reflect his urban background. Towards combat his initial damage dice for unarmed strike isn't high but I think that fits with the character. He is an experienced brawler, not a martial artist. But to offset the small 1d3 damage he has a +2 strength, +1d6 sneak attack, +2 favored enemy and through proper application of Knowledge Devotion (in conjunction with Collector of Stories) he can be seeing something like +12 to damage; and Two-Weapon Fighting only helps add to this more. Against a standard criminal he should be able to deliver enough damage to immediately drop them.

Regarding his equipment I tried to model it after what is seen on him as well as what a character like him would reasonably possess within D&D. The rod of ropes is arguably his most important item (as crafted by NightOwl), the Cloak of Resistance can be re-flavored to be his trench coat and following those two are small little items that enhance aspects of his character.

Touching on his skills he has an average chance of tracking down any person within a large or small city, and an okay chance within a metropolises. He can, within an evening, learn about a specific piece of information and, within twenty nights, learn of exotic information. Within an evening he can gain an overview of a private organizations structure and within twenty nights learn the names of those in a private organization or learn the structure of a secretive organization. When taking ten he can always find a clue in even a greatly disturbed crime scene and following that he can analyze said clue to be a major clue (which provides everything an investigator needs to solve a puzzle, even if the solution isn't immediately obvious). He can balance on a narrow surface 2-6 inches wide, climb a surface with ledges to hold on to and stand on (such as a very rough wall), and nearly jump 15 feet. He can determine if an individual was killed by physical means, environmental causes, spells with visible effects or poison. He can answer/know simple & basic questions about legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions and more for a city. He can answer/know simple questions about lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes and more regarding nobility/royalty. He can also answer/know simple questions about deities, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols and more pertaining to religions. He can typically hear an unarmed person walking quietly at 15 ft. per round, people whispering from four feet away and people talking nine feet beyond a door. Given ample time he can open a very simple or average lock. He pulls in five gp a week through his profession (which I feel represents his poor lifestyle well).

Overall I think this is a fair approximation of Rorschach in D&D.