Wardens and Barbarians?

[Tvtyrant]

Reading through the PHBII now, and while there are several that have different mechanics from those in the PHB (and are often inferior to them as well...) the two that stand out the most are the Warden and the Barbarian.

Both classes have Daily Powers that act as role-determining buffs. The Barbarian's Rages are activated on a special attack and last until the end of the encounter, whilst a Warden's Daily Powers have a special attack that they can use once per transformation and also last until the end of the encounter.

The buff-form ability seems to have the same problem that damage-over-time effects do. They aren't as front-loaded as a Wizard or Rogue Daily, which means that they don't automatically rid the battle field of a threat.

So to come to my questions:

Are the encounter long daily abilities weaker than one-shot daily abilities?
What is the purpose/optimal role for either the Barbarian or the Warden?

[Mando Knight]

Are the encounter long daily abilities weaker than one-shot daily abilities?

Full-encounter daily abilities are generally considered to be the best, in my experience. They might be initially weaker, but they're more reliable than single-turn abilities.

[Dimers]

The role of a PHB2 barbarian is "glass cannon", high hp notwithstanding. Barbarians are remarkably easy to hit and pose a big threat, so they'll get targeted more, taking a lot of debuffs and a lotta lotta damage. They can dish out some sick damage if they're not stopped, though. Primal Power has an alternate build that mitigates the defense problem and spreads out damage more.

The warden is a damage sponge with some tricks around the edges. Your choice of dailies can influence tactical decisions but ultimately doesn't change your build or your role. Warden's the best class for soaking up all kinds of badness.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The role of a PHB2 barbarian is "glass cannon", high hp notwithstanding. Barbarians are remarkably easy to hit and pose a big threat, so they'll get targeted more, taking a lot of debuffs and a lotta lotta damage. They can dish out some sick damage if they're not stopped, though. Primal Power has an alternate build that mitigates the defense problem and spreads out damage more.

Or you could follow the school of thought that dexterity is always the barbarian's secondary stat.

[Tvtyrant]

Or you could follow the school of thought that dexterity is always the barbarian's secondary stat.

Is secondary con and then heavy armor insufficient?

[Siegel]

Full-Encounter daylies also help a lot to work against the 15minute workday and going nova in general. The Barbarian can still do that with Rage-Strike and there is even the Calm Fury PP that focuses on that but that is not the strongest option in my opinion.

I really really like them, especially when you can use a different one every encounter.

[MagnusExultatio]

Is secondary con and then heavy armor insufficient?

Sure, it works if you want to spend two to three feats to not have AC that's deeply in the pits and still inferior to the Str/Dex Barbarian in Hide while having a class feature go to complete waste. And Rageblood Vigor won't cover your skin.

And a bunch of powers whose Con-based riders aren't worth it, especially since Storm of Blades now no longer hits Con mod times.

[Kurald Galain]

Are the encounter long daily abilities weaker than one-shot daily abilities?
No. For any class, the best daily powers are those that last the entire encounter (that includes stances, sustainable powers, and large area save-ends effects).


What is the purpose/optimal role for either the Barbarian or the Warden?
High-damage melee striker and damage sponge, respectively. Barbarians basically want to charge at least once per turn (which means they bounce all over the battlefield). Wardens are very hard to damage with all their resistance and defense powers.

[Mando Knight]

Wardens are very hard to damage with all their resistance and defense powers.

And especially Con Wardens are nigh-impossible to put down when you do manage to hurt them, because they have way too bloody much HP.

[Tvtyrant]

Sorry for using up so much of your time, but could I also get a quick explanation of how you would use said encounter-long Daily abilities? At lower levels you would probably save them for a big fight/the daily boss, but once you have enough for every encounter (level 15) do you simply activate one at the beginning of each encounter based on how you think it will go?

[WickerNipple]

At lower levels you would probably save them for a big fight/the daily boss, but once you have enough for every encounter (level 15) do you simply activate one at the beginning of each encounter based on how you think it will go?

More or less. Early on you hoard them for the right moment, later in your career you can often be raging for every encounter - and you choose what Rage you think will be best for each encounter. Depending on the encounter you might wait til turn 2 or so to see how it's going.

You can also use up rages as Rage Strikes, but I don't find that efficient generally.

[Kurald Galain]

once you have enough for every encounter (level 15) do you simply activate one at the beginning of each encounter based on how you think it will go?

That's at level 9, really. At L15 you're supposed to trade in your L1 daily.

And yes, you do. You should have a rough idea of how many encounters per day your DM is likely to give you. If this is more than three, then you crack a daily in any encounter that looks dangerous. If not (as is the case in LFR), you simply open every encounter with a daily power.

[MeeposFire]

And especially Con Wardens are nigh-impossible to put down when you do manage to hurt them, because they have way too bloody much HP.

Still prefer the better dex since HP won't help you avoid a stun, daze, immobilize, etc.

Heck some rages are as damaging as some of the better single attack powers before you even include the rage effect.

[Mando Knight]

Still prefer the better dex since HP won't help you avoid a stun, daze, immobilize, etc.

Heck some rages are as damaging as some of the better single attack powers before you even include the rage effect.
1.) Wardens can get Con to AC, and double the saves against some effects.
2.) Wardens don't get rages.
3.) In case you couldn't tell, I was talking about the Warden, not the Barbarian.

[MeeposFire]

1.) Wardens can get Con to AC, and double the saves against some effects.
2.) Wardens don't get rages.
3.) In case you couldn't tell, I was talking about the Warden, not the Barbarian.

Whoops somehow I thought it was a comment on barbarians.