Dungeonbred Riding Lizard (Negative natural armor?)

[Quirken]

Assuming I'm reading the RAW right, applying the dungeonbred template (from dungeonscape) to reduce a Riding Lizard to medium size has the following (net) effects on stats:

-4str
+2dex
-2 Natural Armor
+1 AC bonus
+1 attack bonus

Here's my question: Riding Lizards have no natural armor. So does this effectively give them a natural armor penalty, say, for soft skin? Or does the -2 NA just not apply?

Edit: On a more careful reading of the Riding Lizard, it has "AC 16 (touch 10, flat-footed 15)" Which probably means Armor Class 16 (-1 size, +1 dex, +6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15), right?

[Wookie-ranger]

generally the Underdark Lizards have a NA between +2 to +5.
The Footpad lizard has +5, the quicksilver lizard has +3, and the subterranean lizard has +2. ('Drow of the underdark, p. 134-135)

those are the ones that i know of, not sure in which book the riding lizard is in. however it does say that all can be trained as mounts (the Subterranean has a +5 on handle animal check, bc it is harder to train though.)

[Quirken]

The Riding Lizard is from Arms and Equipment and I was thrown off by the abbreviated stat block. That all makes sense now.

The reason I was doing Riding Lizard rather than one of the ones from Drow of the Underdark is it has spiderclimb :) ceiling? Yes!

Thanks!

[Chronos]

Although, there are surely other creatures eligible for Dungeonbred that don't have natural armor, so the underlying question remains.

[Cog]

Natural Armor is by definition a bonus rather than a modifier, and so it cannot be reduced below zero.

[Wookie-ranger]

Although, there are surely other creatures eligible for Dungeonbred that don't have natural armor, so the underlying question remains.

hmmm, very good point. i dont think that negative natural armor would work, since there are few things with thinner skin then a human (and they don't have -NA). so:
would this adjustment simply be negated and the NA is (or stays) 0?
or would it course some other negative effect (-1hp per HD comes to mind)

[KillianHawkeye]

The short answer: bonuses can't be negative.

There's no such thing as a "natural armor penalty."

[motoko's ghost]

Anything with a negative natural armor bonus would basically be amorphous(natural armor also includes stuff like muscles and bones too), so yeah...semi-gelatinous creatures.:smalltongue:

[Wookie-ranger]

[QUOTE=Quirken;12650612]
-4str
+2dex
-2 Natural Armor
+1 AC bonus
+1 attack bonus
QUOTE]

Just re-reading Dungeonscape. i dont see anything about -2 to NA.
I only see:
One size category smaller
+4 to Str (not -4)
+4 to Con
etc...

are we talking about the same 'dungeonbred' template?

[Quirken]

Anything with a negative natural armor bonus would basically be amorphous(natural armor also includes stuff like muscles and bones too), so yeah...semi-gelatinous creatures.:smalltongue:

Semi-gelatinous lizards. I like it!




Just re-reading Dungeonscape. i dont see anything about -2 to NA.
I only see:
One size category smaller
+4 to Str (not -4)
+4 to Con
etc...

are we talking about the same 'dungeonbred' template?

Dungeonscape's Dungeonbred says to look at the Monster Manual and adjust for size accordingly, in addition to what it says in the template itself. Mostly, the template buffs there are to compensate for size change stuff (-8str, -4con, +4str, +4con equals out to -4str, +0con, etc)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Dungeonscape's Dungeonbred says to look at the Monster Manual and adjust for size accordingly, in addition to what it says in the template itself. Mostly, the template buffs there are to compensate for size change stuff (-8str, -4con, +4str, +4con equals out to -4str, +0con, etc)

...As far as I know, natural armor has never been modified by size.

[Quirken]

...As far as I know, natural armor has never been modified by size.

Take a look at monster manual page 291.